January 18, 2015

Kennewick Man was Native American

First DNA tests say Kennewick Man was Native American
Genetic analysis is still under way in Denmark, but documents obtained through the federal Freedom of Information Act say preliminary results point to a Native-American heritage.

The researchers performing the DNA analysis “feel that Kennewick has normal, standard Native-American genetics,” according to a 2013 email to the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, which is responsible for the care and management of the bones. “At present there is no indication he has a different origin than North American Native American.”

...

Willerslev’s Danish lab is a world leader in ancient DNA analysis. Last year, he and his colleagues reported the genome of the so-called Anzick boy, an infant buried 12,600 years ago in Montana. He, too, was a direct ancestor of modern Native Americans and a descendant of people from Beringia.

Until details of the Kennewick analysis are published, there’s no way to know what other relationships his genes will reveal, Kemp said. It may never be possible to link him to specific tribes, partly because so few Native Americans in the United States have had their genomes sequenced for comparison.
The recent publication of the Kostenki-14 genome, which has been described as morphologically Australoid, but appears to be genetically European should make us wary of interpreting phenotypes of early specimens in terms of the much later human populations. In the case of Europeans, it seems that the Caucasoid genetic lineage existed even before full Caucasoid morphology had evolved (at least in some specimens of Upper Paleolithic Europeans, as others had clear Caucasoid morphology).

I would not be surprised if the same was true for Native Americans, that is, the typical morphology of recent Native Americans was not present in their earliest predecessors, who, nonetheless, were part of the same evolving lineage of humans in the Americas. The Anzick-1 genome from the Clovis culture and several mtDNA results have not really turned up anything "exotic" in ancient inhabitants of the Americas, so it seems that the hypothesis of recent Native Americans being descended from a wave of people that replaced earlier inhabitants is losing ground with each new discovery.

56 comments:

Unknown said...

It means people should not refer to genomes as "Caucasoid" nor any other outdated racialist terms.

Gabriel Josset said...

"an infant buried 12,600 years ago in Montana. He, too, was a direct ancestor of modern Native Americans"
Well... they might want to qualify "direct".

aniasi said...

"It means people should not refer to genomes as "Caucasoid" nor any other outdated racialist terms."

Thank you. I find these nonsensical terms like 'Australoid' infuriating. Human morphology changes due to climate, diet and sexual selection. It doesn't indicate ancient genetic heritage.

Gary Moore said...

National Geographic magazine features an article on the origins of Native Americans in the current issue that included a discussion of the differences in morphology between Paleo Indians and modern Native Americans.

Krefter said...

"It means people should not refer to genomes as "Caucasoid" nor any other outdated racialist terms."

Dienekes or anyone else is not raciest for using an outdated term, which you're suggesting. I think he should use a different term though, because west Eurasians are a mix of two very distinct stone age populations "West Eurasian" and "Basal Eurasian".

Krefter said...

Finally the controversy is over. I think many of the non-native Americans in this controversy were in the wrong. I saw some very raciest and anti-Amerindian documentaries about Kennwick man and other old skulls from America, which I think reveals a bad fibe over the this debate.

Many people were wanted Kennwick man to be exotic, because they were so intrigued by the idea that Amerindians were recent immigrants into America, because it went against the believed of tribes in the area he was found.

It is possible that Kennewick man, had more ANE than modern Ameridians, which might be able to explain his non-Amerindian like facial features. Davidski has said that central and southern Ameridians have more ANE than northern ones, and gives constant movement from Siberia into America over 1,000s of years as an answer. He has also said that Anzick a 14,000 year old American had more ANE than Ameridians in that region today.

War Lord said...

"It means people should not refer to genomes as "Caucasoid" nor any other outdated racialist terms."

I don't see anything "outdated" on this term. The validity of this racial group was confirmed by cluster analysis. Furthermore, all Caucasoid groups stem from Y haplogroup F, which points to the very old age of this phenotype. If I am not wrong, Kostenki-14 was described as Caucasoid-Australoid by Howells.

This also raises questions, if Oase humans - the first modern humans in Europe - were, at least genetically, early Caucasoids. I wouldn't be surprised, if the first migration wave to Europe came from the Aterian enviroment of North Africa.

Family Tree said...

This is great news, This is the first place that I have seen that has posted the FACT that he was Native American, I read it here yesterday on this page. I always knew in my heart he was Native American, I am glad they did the testing to disprove other theories that have surfaced over the years trying to prove otherwise.

Alashire said...

natives do not trust their next dna studies either.
all these stupid studies believe that there is a type of Native American. you all believe in races as you construct them. you have created races as you constructed them by your societies and it's belief systems.. society does it . it doesn't have the right !
that is where everyone fails to be scientific.
every Type was here and every male gene there is for every color and type and size and whatever was once here.. IT was here just like it was everywhere !

How even tribes here in our own racism and tribalism first have split up
and or isolated then recombined , then isolated then recombined ..in 4300 years
then mixed with late coming Asians and Russian Asian slaves and Polynesians and throw in some who in the heck knows what else was brought here as slaves . and even now as it continues to be cherry picked from first contact onward and to all the rolls and even to now what they think they see in dna " studies " by who ever and those who think they have a right to tell everyone who they are and where we came from for 500 years.. but they don't even have a good guess and their observations suck eggs !!
That is how the goofiness of a science based on oppionions of someones observations is only capable of imposing those oppionions and brain washing those oppionions and that is not capable of discovering what is true .

When in fact like space even in dna they only see , weigh, measure , and thus compute for these so called "studies" about maybe 3% of what is there..
and even that is only the males contribution to humanity ( so think egg and ovum by weights and mass for a minute please) . there is a whole lot more to a human than the males contributions , and more to space then what a man thinks he sees.. there is to space and to way more to the earth's history than meets some "professional guesser " ideas and anyone who thinks he has the right to tell us an opinion based his own"observations" and circular reasoned proofs from his own constructs and his own desires and beliefs is wrong .

..boy they think they have it all figured out .
well they think they do , but I don't think they do !

They sure do tell you all about it with such authority though ! but they are wrong.
all of mankind's types were here just like it has been everywhere.

native people please stay out of the boxes that they build.






CR Little said...

I, for one, am disappointed by these findings. I do not understand how the existence of an aboriginal people before pre-Columbian Ameridians is so controversial in a political sense. It would not, in any way, discredit or undermine the position of post-Columbian Native Americans concerning their ancestors being here before 15th century Europeans. This is true even if an aboriginal people had come from Europe because post-Columbian Europeans could not claim some kind of heritage to Europeans from 23,000 plus years ago. However, at least we have the facts about this find now.

Joerg Hensiek said...

Well, I cannot see why there should not have been any other ethnic groups in the Americas apart from native Indians, just because Kennewick Man seems to be "Native American"! There is still a good possibility that Australoid populations settled along the western coasts and in South Amercia as well that there were a few Paleolithic Europeans along the eastern coast of North America. As long as these populations were very small and they did not mix with Native Americans I see no logic in stating that the DNA results of KM show more evidence that there never have been earlier inhabitants in the Americas. Or is there? Reminds me of the 1940s/50s debates on that there were never Europeans in America before Columbus.

Joerg Hensiek said...

I do not understand the logic of your suggestions, Dienekes. Why should the KM DNA results be further evidence that there never have been other ethnic populations in the New World? As long as these were small and did not mix with native Americans there is - in my opinion - no way to conclude from American Indian DNA to the non-existence of these other groups? or is there?...great blog, by the way..

Annie Mouse said...

This article stinks of the worst kind of political correctness and agendas IMO.

There are no actual facts. Just a general vague hand waving. Also:

"So it seems that the hypothesis of recent Native Americans being descended from a wave of people that replaced earlier inhabitants is losing ground with each new discovery."

Er what about the Australoid folk? I believe they persist in their Amerind children but I dont think this is what the authors are trying to imply. And based on what exactly? All Willerslev says is he looks like a typical North American Native American. This covers a lot of ground.

Seeba Alexander said...

"I don't see anything "outdated" on this term. The validity of this racial group was confirmed by cluster analysis. Furthermore, all Caucasoid groups stem from Y haplogroup F,"

The term Caucasoid used in genetic sense for an unadulterated westeurasian group is still outdated in the end of the day. Since Modern europeans, north africans, west asians are all hybrid mixes of two very distinct groups, and that mix being both West Eurasian and Basal Eurasian.

I also am glad South Asians don't seem to have any genetics closeness or ancient ancestry coming from any european populations. Basically this means the end of nordic aryan invasion ideology, and even black sea area was once settled by dark sardinian-like farmers during copper age who later got overthrown.

Finally Kennewick man and modern Amerindians are one in the same people, and neither are Paleo or modern Natives descended from Ancient Europeans(Solutreans). All of these thinga are spelling the very end for the popular eurocentric narrative.

aniasi said...

Using terms like Australoid and Caucasoid is the equivalent of putting tigers, zebras and raccoons in the same genus because they have stripes. It is absolutely unscientific

Will someone actually tell me what an Australoid is supposed to be, because it has been used to define everyone from a South Indian, to a South East Asian to the Ainu, and they really do not all look alike. Similarly, Caucasoid seems to describe everyone from Ethiopia to the Samoyeds.

Alashire said...

"Finally Kennewick man and modern Amerindians are one in the same people, and neither are Paleo or modern Natives descended from Ancient Europeans(Solutreans)." ALL' of these thinga are spelling the very end for the popular eurocentric narrative."
and you prefer that "All real natives be asians ?
and this is less
Eurocentric" how exactly ? how exactly?

I have been told for 10 years s now that my mtdna "isn't native american" "because everyone knows natives are asians and no one have ever found any mtdna from anything but Abcd and X" and how they never find anything else but these mtdna's .
I can't wait until they finally tell you what Lord Pakals Mtdna is !

All they have cherry picked, from late coming asians , Polynesian pearl divers , rice slaves , mining railroad workers and Siberian/Russian fir trading slaves and so many more ways.

just ignorant fabrications and everyone doesn't know just how much they have assumed and imposed themselves into our history of so many different people who have come here . you and no one have any right to do that to anyone ever !

Annie Mouse said...

Ancient DNA is the key to the truth. Lots of it. But what can you do when every ancient bone that is claimed by a tribe is swiftly locked away, forever, never to be touched. What does it hurt to take a DNA sample before reburial? How is that disrespectful? There would be plenty of DNA and bone dissolving into the earth, eaten by earthworms and insects. The body is not the spirit just the container for the spirit, and DNA leaves the vast majority of the bone intact anyway. Personally I would want to know the truth about my past, even if it was unpalatable. And we have no way of knowing if the tribe has any real claim to the ancient bone anyway. It could be from a people that came before, or an enemy. Hard not to think that this is about land rights, racism and politics rather than religion and respect.

North America has become a prehistorical black hole with valuable information about the past disappearing forever. The prehistory of the Americas is going to be dominated by the history of South and Central America, with the history of North America existing only as it relates to the history of the South and Central America.

Kurti said...

Caucasoid or West Eurasian still makes sense, despite us knowing that West Eurasians beeing admixed with "Basal Eurasian".

Some people seem to have this wrong idea that "basal Eurasian" is something "non" West Eurasian. But in realiuty it seems like "Basal Eurasian" is simply another "West Eurasian" ancestral component we don't know much about yet.

Also even if Basal Eurasian wasn't West Eurasia. the classifications into West Eurasian(Caucasoid), East Eurasian and Sub Saharan, which is still used by the majority of scientific world, does make sense in our modern world because those groups are genetically seen relatively distinct with some populations beein in between two of them.

Gary Moore said...

@Alashire: Somone is claiming that some Cherokee with no known Europeans in their maternal line tested for mtDNA U5. His agenda is trying to prove that the Cherokees are somehow descended from ancient peoples of the Bronze Age who sailed across the Atlantic. Of course, a finding of mtDNA U5 entirely consistent with the ANE hypothesis.

Alashire said...

Annie dear give me the address to your ancestor graves and let me at it with a back hoe for awhile .. and drops some part of whatever I find at the smithsonian.. because I want to prove your really a Jackalope not a really a mouse.! and that all your ancestors were just mouse wannabes too but really some ugly hairy jackalopes.

Annie they don't understand history of North America , I don't expect they will every understand the true history of North America. and they don't understand even dna and haven't asked a relevant question yet.

Egyptsearch 2.0. said...

Brace and others settled some time ago that this individual was closer to certain living Pacific populations (who themselves were once caught up in a similar "Caucasoid" controversy). The European classification never held up to scrutiny in the first place. Therefore, I wouldn't say that this individual combines Amerindian DNA with a European looking face and calvaria.

However, the pacific populations in question still have a lot more morphometric affinity to Europeans than one might expect from Fst or other measures of genetic affinity, so the fact that some commenters here to use this case as yet another reason to reject the use of "oid" morphotypes as useful predictors of ancestry, is entirely justified.

Annie Mouse said...

My children have traces of Amerind DNA from their father which must be North American. We would love to know where it came from. But I guess we will never know.

Seeba Alexander said...

"Some people seem to have this wrong idea that "basal Eurasian" is something "non" West Eurasian. But in reality it seems like "Basal Eurasian" is simply another "West Eurasian" ancestral component we don't know much about yet"

The original "West Eurasians" were much closer to "East Eurasians" and "Ancestral South Indians" more so than they were to any Basal Eurasians. So calling the Basal component just a different kind of West Eurasians won't cut it. Basically West-Eurasians are more mixed up than comparing to most homogenous east-asians or even say west-africans.

Anyways having the concept of a West Asia-Mediterranean separated from East Asians or Sub Saharans is still valid, and we need better terms to differentiate older and modern West Eurasians populations. But that Caucasoid Or Caucasian label is now irrelevant just like mongoloid and negroid not used anymore. Also there is good amount of WHG in especially northern europeans which makes them standout from real caucasian ppl & near-easterns, therefore why compare and call north euros caucasians? & also geographically calling any ethnic group originating outside the caucasus is pointless confusing at best.

Alashire said...

Go ask your families tribes elders , because the goofballs in these fields will NEVER figure it out.


so we need you ancestors bones to determine if your really dimension hopping bloodsucking Vampire Jackalopes from inner cellular space! it has been determined by a consortium of brilliant Jackalopes and other concerned citizens. that I just need some for your families dna to prove if they are the vampire or regular Jackalopes..
if there is enough "garlic" in your families bones then that proves they were regular Jackalopes.. but if you are a vampire Jackalope then you are aliens and we will take everything you have and everything you ever had and everything you families will ever have..
but it is agreed you were never a mouse .

Alashire said...

Annie.. I am calling you out as a liar right now.

if it is less than 3% it is only a ghost of a female line and your kids don't anything more than most Fins and about 1/4 of most europeans..
good luck using any of that to prove anything relevant.

when and if any of these so called scientists get any place close to any kind of reality then native people might start giving dna, maybe maybe ,, .. but until they stop creating fantasy and proving just how corrupt and stupid they really are. Aint no one but true believers going to be getting in their lines to have dna done . Remember enough natives have done it to know these nutters really aint got a clue and by giving them native dna they just provide fuel for their kind of stupid.

Alashire said...

and mostly traces you think you have of something you can't prove before that test.. doesn't give you or anyone any right to make demands on people for just your curiosity!!!!

Annie Mouse said...

Alashire I deal in logic and fact not wish-for and wannabe. So what if it is a female line, would that be less Amerind? My children would be just as proud of a female ancestor as a male. Are the women less "of the People"?

As it happens we also have mysterious Q1a3 in fully white seeming distant cousins on this same line. So chances are the original source was a man.

I have no reason to lie, the genetics was unexpected, no rumours of Indian Princesses.
None of our European lines have a trace of Amerind albeit I do believe it happens in Scandinavia, where it is likely the source is North America also. So what is your point? It is still Amerind blood in Scandinavia. Just proof that folk moved back and forth.

I challenge you to cite your 25% Amerind in Europeans with an actual reference. This has not been my observation.

You may not wish the truth to get in the way of your fantasies, that is your prerogative. My children would like to know who their ancestors actually were, not some pleasant illusion.

We as a family have contributed our DNA in this collective search for the truth, as have most folk on this blog and what we have learned has come from similar folk out there. The ethnic groups that contribute benefit the most from the knowledge that emerges from their DNA.

I believe from what I have seen that it is possible to have Amerind ancestry but appear fully white genetically at this stage of the science. Absence of proof is not proof of absence however. I believe that some North Eastern American tribes probably had some ancient European ancestry although that is a minority view. I think it is possible that some U might be prove to be pre-Columbian. But without lots of native folk testing we may never know. And they will never know.

Alashire said...

"I challenge you to cite your 25% Amerind in Europeans with an actual reference. This has not been my observation. "

I said/meant 25% with a ghosted around 4 % because the morons haven't got a clue what they are even looking at so they don';t even know what the 4 % is. they don't know how dna even works yet.

SO it is ok for your fantasy and lies to get in the way of all of our prerogatives ? do all of you have a clue what you can do with those ideas , all your concerns and that" indian princess comment" too ?


it seems Larry David is a european jew came back 37%+ ' native american' and he wasn't at all! hey man it came out of computer that way because a computer is always right ! maybe you can you say this old commuter language thing " garbage in and garbage out" ! they know lots about garbage.
they don't know what they are talking about ! so find a European Q jew.. to harasses instead alright ! ..

it is this cultures way and mankinds greatest sins..is to always to usurp and control others. it is way past time to stop.
In the mean time your fantasy, lies , group desires and or collective concerns, or however you wish to label all those pushy ideas..
for YOUR OWN
" knowledge "of any other peoples genes or anything else in attempts to control .. is wrong.

that kind of
"science "as you hope to call it. and all of it's twisted desires to label and name and harass and bully people
you have no God given right to do that .
please leave native people alone! they are not anti real science but they are anti stupid.

Seeba Alexander said...

sigh, people Kennewick man being of ancient European ancestry has been completely debunked so time to move on. Crying you still believe Native Americans probably had old European ancestry is not going to get you anywhere. They may even find some mtdna U & yna R to be pre-Columbian, but that will still reinforce an asian origin and not an european one sadly for you guys.

i understand many white nationalists including those in europe will all be upset that ancient europeans didn't give birth to native-american culture and civilization. Even neo-pagans like Stephen McNallen dig themselves into this mess, so embarrassing. also some White american Rightwing types will now lose their justification that they deserve north america more than the natives. And those who want to claim any native american befits by bring up fake ancestry will be fairly put to test.

Also even if your mtdna is european, that doesn't mean you don't have native ancestry. I mean native men taking white wives did happen in the past, like Comanche Quanah Parker had a white mother for example. Plus they can still test to find if you have native ancestry either way. I only reason someone would be still upset is if they wished completely the rumours of being an Indian Princess from their motherside of the family.

Seeba Alexander said...

And also One more thing, pre-Columbian Native Amerindians were anywhere between 60 to 70 percent East-eurasians(east-asians) and 40 to 30 percent Ancestral North eurasians. Both of these came from different parts of asia, & then meeting up in eastern Siberia. if some people here are going to start claiming any Ancestral North eurasian found in Europeans as being an Amerindian marker, then I will let you know two things. One most of this Ancestral North eurasian found in europeans came very recently during bronze-age, and two that modern europeans don't carry the most of it world-wide.

So who in the world carrys the most "Ancestral North eurasian" like amerindians, well that would be east-indians. Ofcourse southasians also has neolithic middle-eastern and other components thrown in that makes them different from Amerindians. But either way the large amount of "Ancestral North eurasian" found in both groups and absent amount of european WHG basically ends popular eurocentric theories for the origins of both peoples. there seems to be poetic irony in all of this if you ask me

Annie Mouse said...

"I challenge you to cite your 25% Amerind in Europeans with an actual reference. This has not been my observation. "

I said/meant 25% with a ghosted around 4 % because the morons haven't got a clue what they are even looking at so they don';t even know what the 4 % is. they don't know how dna even works yet."

So no reference. Thats what I figured. That is because it is not true.

Alashire said...

this discussion is so ignorant that will be my last post .I was the one about 8 years ago that line out why Kennewick man was Native American and related to the choctaw and chickasaw who came to the SE from that area. .

it was a nut job scientist who tried to tell us KM was "white " so they could steal his bones and over ride native tribes.. which by the way haplogroup Q can be " white " just like Larry David and it can be "black" and it can be "native" and it can be "asian
looking and that it could and did happen here just like in Israel.. and we could easy have white indians.. and even black indians... but looks don't have sh*t to do with anything! . except that is how scientist do their kind of 'science' and do it to prove what they want it to be.
You all been smoking way to much something and all your goofy theories only sound good if you are high being taught by a professor who is also high..
I been saying for 8years he was native and that you don't have a clue about how dna works or history of North America and you guys are all stupid as a stump! just keep talking and you just keep proving that to be true! you will believe what you want to believe.. but you believe in lies!
i'm done!

dahlgren said...

Indeed

Grognard said...

Outdated = doesn't go with your political bias. Always people who have some agenda spew this nonsense, and they are never seen on these subjects when nothing political is at stake.

I am glad to know of the results, the previous clovis result was ambiguous to me because it was on the very edge of clovis territory.

As for "stealing" bones this is ridiculous and annoying. No tribes in the americas trace back even 2k years in a particular location let alone 12k+ years. It is criminal to allow this nonsense to get in the way of science and anthropology. Again, more politics tying people's hands. Obviously many people are not interested in the truth but in proving a point so they can press home their agenda.

Niineta said...

Grognard . . What’s at stake? Do you mean Kennewick man may still be Caucasian? He’s NOT; and they knew that from the beginning.

Back in 2000 Chatters said he knew Kennewick man wasn’t Caucasian. During an interview, he said, “If I didn’t say Kennewick man was Caucasian the Indians would have him”.

No doubt a statement to cover his rear-end since the DNA test had indicated Kennewick man was haplotype “D”. Information discarded and reported as the 2 other labs couldn’t replicate the results.

There are more than 25,000 skeletal remains and bone fragment in museums across the Americas and those which have been tested have shown continuity in the populations ranging from 2 to 6,000 years.

Numerous DNA studied on the northwest coast has shown continuity of 5000 years for the populations there. So your statement “No tribes in the Americas trace back even 2k years in a particular location” is false.

“Obviously many people are not interested in the truth but in proving a point so they can press home their agenda”. All this lying and fabrication of information certainly proves your point. Lying and stealing is the hallmark of those people.

So after 15 years what did they learn? That Kennewick man wasn’t Caucasian? They knew that from the beginning.

The Kennewick man results make no difference now; since the NEW fabrication is Amerindians are actually 1/3 west Eurasian (Caucasian ??????????????? )))

Whoops. . . I fell of my chair laughing.

Grognard said...

Laughing just shows yourself to be a fool. I really don't care about the opinion of people who only chime in on their one pet issue. That's a lot of people who comment here.

I never made any claim of any kind about kinnewick man, that is wholly made up in your head. What annoys me is people who make up some story that "has to" be true and then they won't even allow anyone else to test the hypothesis. Look above for the post I was talking about. Caucasoid and Caucasion are NOT outdated, racist terms. That's ludicrous.

Mostly they don't even have some basic knowledge on the subjects they speak on. For example claiming continuity going back 12k years or more. Sorry, NO. That is a fantasy.

Now as to whether or not the people in those areas are the same now as they were back then, or when people first came to the area and from where, those are not things we just assume. We test them, such as with carbon dating and DNA sequencing.

Trying to get in the way of that doesn't help anybody. If your case is right it will be born out by DNA tests eventually even if there is some evil white man fraud perpetrated (which I still look for some examples of). Standing in the way of it that like some people do doesn't help their case any.

Grognard said...

Also it should be noted that DNA test for population analysis means a lot less than most people think. Plenty of people in europe get 'native american' mixture especially Irish and basque.

This DNA obviously doesn't come from north america originally. No one ever claimed that modern europeans crossed to north america. Proto-europeans who also had the same 'ainur-like' look may have. These could have been related to the ainur in NE asia or they may have crossed the atlantic. At the time of beringia it was possible to walk across the atlantic on ice sheets as well. Water levels were much lower.

Alashire said...

well you all got people going here or from there or whatever.... whatever..

well again I will leave you all with a concept, there is a reason native americans call parts of north america turtle island.... rotf! and if you think you got that figured out ,well you don't !

Alashire said...

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/geoa.12033/abstract
read it and weep
Turtle island was a very real event memorialized on both the Pict's Rhyniestones and by the Serpent mound. and it wasn't no dang 12000 years ago no matter what those with the big stick try and tell you!
It was the bronze age collapse. about 3200 or maybe 2800 years ago. the genetics of turtle island doesn't and never did have to match the rest of the islands or of those who survived .. which are now two continents called North and South America not hundreds of Islands in the general shape of an EYEball. they were at most only cousins rooted in the same traditions and ancestral cultures . But where that went to from that event and all the deaths and the death of the great kings by Menes before that event and others who came or took over after that event ... well can be and did becomes just anything. and we do not have to match with their dna. scientism is cult with a big stick backed by a government with a bigger stick. and no one should give it any more credence than any other cult men can dream up . it is not science.

Annie Mouse said...

Personally I think folk would have been moving back and forth across the top of the North Atlantic between the Americas and Northern Europe whenever the climate allowed. So far as I know there was no big apartheid sign saying "No Europeans Allowed" at the border with Greenland. That is a construction of a modern racist ideology. We know game crossed. People would have followed the game. How many, and did they leave any descendants is the question.

From what I can see at the moment first entry and settlement of the Americas was from the West (Ainu-like folk, then more gracile folk following from the East. Then possible/probable minor later flows from the East. Inuit-like types from the West after that. That is my best guestimate with what we have now.

Niineta said...

The term Caucasian was racist from its inception. A brief review of the term’s history will clarify that. A history most people are aware of, and for some the reason it’s considered racist and outdated. There is nothing ludicrous about that opinion.

Claiming “No tribes in the Americas trace back even 2k years in a particular location” is “false” and claiming I made any reference to 12k is just as “false”.

Currently, there are more than “200” ANCIENT confirmed Native American DNA samples from across NORTH AMERICA. If they wanted to determine the origins of the Amerindians, they have more than enough DNA. There is no interest in the origins of Amerindians. They came from Asia - case closed

The priority is to prove the Amerindians were NOT the first inhabitants of the Americas. Hence their obsession with the Solutrean Theory and insistence Kennewick man was not Native American.

So far it’s been reported, Amerindians descend from East Asians, Austronesians and Siberians. There is no need for a Proto-European migration, since the Amerindians are now purported to be significantly west Eurasian.

“What annoys me is people who make up some story that "has to" be true.”

Yeah that annoys me too.

Niineta said...

FYI
A short list of ANCIENT Native American DNA samples.
12,710 - Arlington Springs Woman - B
12,600 - Anzik-1 - D4h3a, Q-L54*(xM3)
12,000 - Hoyo Negro Girl - D1
10,300 - On Your Knees Cave - D4h3a, Q1a3a1a
10,250 - Wizard’s Beach - C1d
8,000 - Hourglass Cave - B2
7,400 – Windower - X2a
5,500 - Lucy Islands (938) - A2ag
5,000 - Lucy Islands (939) - D4h3a
5,000 -Dodge Island (160a) - A2ah
4,975 - Big Bar Lake - A2
4,959 - China Lake - M
2,500 - Dodge Island (152) - A2ag

The samples are from: Alaska, California, Colorado, Florida, Montana, Nevada - British Columbia & Mexico

DNA SAMPLES LESS THAN 3,000 YEARS

34 – Hopewell Mound - (Ohio)
39 - Klunk mound - (Illinois)
108 - Norris Farm Oneota – (Ohio)
9 - Morse (Red Ocher tradition, 2,700 BP)
11 - the Orendorf - (Mississippian tradition, 800 BP) – Illinois
2 – Beothuk tribe (extinct) – Newfoundland
1 - long-ago person - British Columbia
44 - Great Western Park (Western Basin tradition, 800 BP), Glacial Kame (2,900 BP) Ontario, Morse (Red Ocher tradition, 2,700 BP), Orendorf
39 - Schild site – (Illinois) – Nov. 2014

As I said there are more than 25,000 skeletal remains in museums.

All the fuss made over remains is because the remains are always promoted as not being Native American (eg. Luzia, Spirit Cave Man, Windover bog people, Kennewick Man, on and on).

If they ever find one that’s not Native American, all other evidence will be discarded. That’s a proven fact.

Annie Mouse said...

Well I dont know who "they" are. I am just as interested in South American DNA (or Japanese DNA for that matter). I am MORE interested in Caribbean DNA and there is no great white conspiracy there.

There are't enough ancient DNA samples in Europe or Asia to answer all the questions there, and there certainly arent enough in America. A mtDNA result is a very small part of the story.

Annie Mouse said...

Haplogroup M found by in a sample by a scientist with a Punjabi surname.

Hmm. Not sure I believe that one.

Alashire said...

"Currently, there are more than “200” ANCIENT confirmed Native American DNA samples from across NORTH AMERICA. If they wanted to determine the origins of the Amerindians, they have more than enough DNA. There is no interest in the origins of Amerindians. They came from Asia - case closed" case has never been opened yet! not seriously. there is a reason that all bones from the north east aren't older than 3200 years. even by their dating methods.
in the mean time bones from places like China lake are not 5000 years old.. That one is less than 500 because this is where the Chinese went to mine after they stopped building railroads. They called it China lake for a reason folks and it is NOT 5000 years old period. If that starts the scale then all your 5000 are 500 and your 10000 are 1000 years. because max is probably 3200 years folks.
that timing the cult shaman uses is just more cult practices and
" indisputable proof" that is just more of the same kind of fabrications every other cult in the world uses and will use .
if they claim it is over 3200 years old it is probably tea leaves they are reading.

Alashire said...

http://elementsunearthed.com/2010/10/06/thorium/
here is the reason for their wishful thinking and fake dates.
That Scientism don't know the laws of dating the moons thorium that has been deposited just 3200 years ago. and They will never know the laws of it or those events .

these two sites have the info about some
rare earth minerals pictures better . you can check out all other rare earth minerals and get to the truth .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occurrence_of_thorium

http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/02files/Moon_Mining.html

and statements on these can beyond stupid.. like like the close side has more mineral.. when in fact it is only more revealed by a collision with earth . so pay attention to the maps..
be sure to look at the thorium shots at a google search too, of both earth and the moon. do they understand the laws of those bodies which died in the moons thorium dust and what that would do to radio active elements in any human body dead or those alive that died in that moment? . they don't know the laws of such events. they will never know the laws of such events. no matter how big their sticks get don't believe them.. does anyone know how those events changed mtdna or any dna? NO!!!!
native people do check out subjects like 'Carolina Bays" and " all those " 50000 year old"( NOT ! ) (good wood) not even rotten trees buried under the piedmont and in the gulf. and the layer of dirt that matches only the moon that is 6 ft under 6ft deep across all of North America. with 6ft of
"sterile sands" over that !!!
they don't know what the worlds history was and they are nutters for the goofy stories they have come up with.. and if you believe they got a clue then your a "true believer" in that kind of shamanism/naturalism goofiness too. because they don't have a clue what they are talking about. but they sure got their kind magic going on.

Seeba Alexander said...

"We know game crossed. People would have followed the game"

no proof of any games crossing from Europe to northamerica, and no proof of any people traveling the atlantic on greenland or the ice sheets. sorry without anything to go by, it just becomes wishful thinking.

"From what I can see at the moment first entry and settlement of the Americas was from the West (Ainu-like folk, then more gracile folk following from the East. Then possible/probable minor later flows from the East. Inuit-like types from the West after that. That is my best guestimate with what we have now"

There is three major migrations from Archaeology and Genetics. that is first earliest Paleo-amerindins, then followed by 2nd wave of later amerindins and finally more recent 3rd population that came to alaska and canadian arctic. all 3 entry and settlement of the Americas was from the West(siberia), so there was no Ainu-like gracile folk following from Europe in the East. There is no proof with what we have now about any european migrations.

Alashire said...


beringa is such a joke..
well maybe some people went that way to trade.. but only when Alaska was down around Hawaii !~


http://grisda.org/origins/01101.pdf



they won't find any buried dna after that event! 3200 years ago... as memorialized by the Surpent mound..
if they say they found dna from before that ...they are probably lying!!! or profoundly and terminally ignorant.
maybe when Alaska was where Hawaii is now.. maybe then it was a highway for all kinds of animals and trees and dna.. but that trading holds true for both sides of the EYE. but it is not where anyone came from , certainly not there!! .
certainly no one came from up there ever as their origins.

except the last 500 years maybe ! yes bunches of Russians and Eskimos came for the fur trade in Canada in the 500 years and thousands of other kinds of slaves from Polynesians to SE-Asians of every kind. .. and there aint no one looking for their dna. the cult scientism has been using that dna to prove how gooofy they really are.


when Alaska and Russia was a Hawaiian tropical forrest maybe it was a freeway then , maybe !! but china has been visiting a long time since the event. and they weren't ever from here either..


hey Ps haplogroup B probably came from U5 and U6. please remember they don't know why dna mutates.. events causing life altering stress and or changes in foods might have something to do with it.

Tobus said...

@Alashire:
maybe some people went that way to trade... but only when Alaska was down around Hawaii

When Alaska was "down around" Hawaii there were no people around to trade - not by a few hundred millions years.

http://grisda.org/origins/01101.pdf... they won't find any buried dna after that event! 3200 years ago

This paper claims that the Ginko Petrified Forest is "strongly suggestive of catastrophic
conditions as described in the book of Genesis in the Bible" - and hence I presume that the 3,200ya event that you think wiped out all ancient DNA is the Great Flood of Noah's Ark fame. This is scientific blog, how about you go troll your religious beliefs somewhere else.

Alashire said...

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/archaeological-evidence-links-polar-bears-to-irish-brown-bears-125180369-237397981.html

they are not Siberian bears but Irish bears!

Alashire said...

http://johnhawks.net/weblog/reviews/genomics/non-human/elephant-paleogenomics-forest-rohland-2010.html

for those of you who's heads spin and you stop thinking or reading..when you see scary words..


" Woolly mammoths were Holarctic animals, with a range that extended from Europe to North America, while Columbian mammoths were limited to the Americas south of the U.S.-Canada border, roughly."

Annie Mouse said...

From what I can see at the moment first entry and settlement of the Americas was from the West (Ainu-like folk (more robust skulls), then more gracile folk following from the WEST. Then possible/probable minor later flows from the East. Inuit-like types from the West after that. That is my best guestimate with what we have now.

(slight correction of typo and clarification)

terryt said...

"they don't know what the worlds history was and they are nutters for the goofy stories they have come up with".

You seem to have a very strange and idiosyncratic view of history.

Alashire said...

The European knows what was recorded by eyewitnesses in just about 1/8 to 1/4 of the world . basically that record is just from the Mediterranean and you can't explain that either. and you only have that record only because they Israelites actually lived through those events when few else did live through it!

so now those claiming to be high minded
intellectuals ( not really anything more than just high being taught from those high ) are in rebellion to even that record .
now what happened in the rest of the world has also been recorded by the few who lived through it and no the records are not exactly in the same form , but speak just loud ! Those records scream from all over the place. Now the rest of the 3/4+ of the world recorded and passed down what it experienced. and it screams from every form of record man can make and that record of man he can imaginable.

but you your high minded priest and shaman of pretend knowledge will never know what that is and never know the laws of those things . but it is your lose because this is about your guys choice of ignor-ance. but the truth screams from everywhere to anyone listening.

what happened on the back side of Earth and to the rest of the world is remembered and you won't take it or steal it or bury it ever again! and no amount of mocking is going to make anyone forget it.. no matter how many back hoes and shovels you guys try and use to cover it up alter or change it with your big a22 sticks and brain washing.. . the most real proof of true history glares down at us every single night.

Someday what you all call science might figure out how dna really works in real life and not in a microscope. right now you guys are trying to tell people their history from less than 3% of the truth and that only the coded stuff and then if they do figure it out m you will want to remember my little bison lesson.

ron quiroriano said...

Alashire,
What the heck are you getting on about?
The last comment makes no sense at all.

terryt said...

"you will want to remember my little bison lesson".

I still can't see what you were trying to say with your 'little bison lesson' unless it was to display your complete lack of anything to do with biology.