June 13, 2008

mtDNA of Tarim mummies




The National Geographic documentary on the Tarim mummies reports on recent mtDNA work on the Tarim mummies. The program doesn't really reveal anything new to anyone familiar with the story of these mummies, but there are some nice segments of some of them as they would have been during their lifetime. At some point, the camera shows what appear to be haplogroup assignments, although I wouldn't vouch as to what these actually mean. or to who exactly they belong. What they do say is that they found markers from "Europe, West Eurasia, Siberia, Tibet, Mongolia, even India". They also mention that the "Beauty of Loulan", the "Boy" have "unexpected marks of East Asian ancestry", and "Cherchen Man" also carries "a surprising East Asian lineage" and that the "Shaman" has a "lineage frequently seen in the Himalayas and India".

40 comments:

Antigonos said...

Another political correct bullshit!
It reminds me documentaries that pictured a Capoid type as the original Homo Sapiens Sapiens man.
So the Tarim mummies were mongrels, ah?
They were not robust, blond, Caucasoids, ah?
Another "victory" of the supporters of the multiracial, multicultural society, since the Tocharian and Saka cultures of the Tarim were not the product of White peoples but of mongrels, ah?
Not surprising that the force behind that channel is the Fox Cable Networks, a company of RUPERT MURDOCH, the well known Globalization and anti-Nationalist Jewish bourgeois who owns pro-multiracial and anti-White channels and media that do propaganda in favor of a mutlicultural, multiracial planet (something like the Babel tower)!
Perhaps the channel should be better called the National Jewographic Channel.

Dienekes said...

That type of evidence-free anti-Semitic comment doesn't belong here.

Rochefaton said...

Careful, Antigonos. I'm sure the ADL is already in the process of sending you a nasty letter. :P

I'm assuming it was not possible to recover any YDNA. It would have been very interesting to see the combinations of mtDNA and YDNA among the mummies.

Crimson Guard said...

Antigonos are you sure you dont go by another name around these parts?

Not sure whats so unbelievable here besides. As these people were always supposed to be mixed and more East Asian. I think only the online "Nordicists" would have a problem with these results, as they were the ones pushing for their "Celtic" & "Germanic" origins for some time.

Those cheekbones on that woman too, were really something of a tell tale mark. Mongolid, Asiatic Alpines and Turanoids wouldve sufficed no doubt for these people on the average.

miz RAND BLOWTON said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
miz RAND BLOWTON said...

The photos look equally Caucasian and Asian to me. Maybe ancient,and isolated peoples had no problem interbreeding,if on friendly terms,especially if they share a culture or need each other.

miz RAND BLOWTON said...

I'm 4% Asian ,I like Chinese(American) Food,will try and learn Karate ,and will drink Asian Bubble Tea with Tapioca balls in it-Am I a MongrelLoid? A lot of people think so!

South Central Haplo said...

I see no political correctness here. Political discriminaton.

They say "Shaman" has a "lineage frequently seen in the Himalayas and India".

and then

they found markers from "Europe, West Eurasia, Siberia, Tibet, Mongolia, even India".

Whey '"Even"' when referred to India?.

There can feel good for Europe but not for India. Even When it is geographically closer and Indian markers are found.

Maju said...

@South Central (just a note):

India is arguably closer in straight line but in fact it's more distant for someone walking or, specially, on horse. And in fact Central Asia in general shows an almost equal presence of Western and Eastern Eurasian lineages but much less so of South Asian clades. They are there, sure, but it's not like the South Asian genetic pool is in any way a major constituent of the Central Asian peoples' lienages.

So it's not so surprising, ok, but it's somewhat less obviouly expected than West and East Eurasian lineages.

I cannot get in the mind of the author but guess that's why.

pconroy said...

The image of the "Beauty of Loulan" from the documentary looks like:

Lucy Lawless:
http://cdn.maximonline.com/girls/lucy_lawless/lucy-lawless-gm_l5.jpg

While the usual recreated image of the beauty is this one:
http://www.msmoran.com/mummy10.jpg

Where the high cheekbones and red hair, looks like:

Julienne Moore:
http://www.rd.com/images/rdmag/people/27655JulianneMoore.jpg

pconroy said...

The "Shaman" remind me of:

Chuck Norris:
http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/6766/138261oa.jpg

terryt said...

Miz Rand Blowtown: "Maybe ancient,and isolated peoples had no problem interbreeding". Not just ancient peoples. In most regions today interbreeding is common. It tends to be least where cultural beliefs opposing it are well established. When I was in West Africa a common complaint I heard was that us white people never join any villages and set up our own compound. Sounds like they were in favour of interbreeding! And where I live interbreeding between the indigenous inhabitants and people of European origin is completely normal.

Maju; "And in fact Central Asia in general shows an almost equal presence of Western and Eastern Eurasian lineages but much less so of South Asian clades'. Exactly. Maps of haplogroup distribution indicate that such regions as Iran and the Central Asian steppes lie on a crossroad of haplogroup movement. Perhaps we might assume this has always been so?

Like most of us here, and unlike Antigonos, I find the conclusions in the TV program totally unsurprising.

terryt said...

Oh. Pconroy. Lucy Lawless may have some Polynesian ancestry so she too probably has a widespread geographic mix of genes including East Asian, South Asian and European.

Maju said...

Maps of haplogroup distribution indicate that such regions as Iran and the Central Asian steppes lie on a crossroad of haplogroup movement. Perhaps we might assume this has always been so?

It's a possibility. The other possibility is that the West Eurasian component is older and the East Asian more recent (since Turkic expansion few centuries BCE). I'm rather with this last model based on archaeology: everything seems of West Eurasian origin until the Scythians in Central Asia, then the Turks (and briefly the Mongols) replaced them as "lords of the steppes" until Russian expansion.

But cultural "westerness" does not necesarily mean genetic or phenotypical "westerness", much less pure-bloodness. In fact we know that Eastern/Siberian genes and types have been flowing westward at a higher latitude since long before the Turkic expansion.

So there is some uncertainty.

Antigonos said...

"That type of evidence-free anti-Semitic comment doesn't belong here".

Is Rupert Murdoch a pro-Globalization bourgeois, yes or no?
Does his channels support multiracial and multicultural ideas, yes or no?
Does he have programs and ESPECIALLY talk shows which support the common global market idea and pictures Nationalism as something bad (like in the Serbian War), yes or no?
In the News how often do you see crimes against Whites done by other races and how often do you see the same and the same and the same crime when that was done by Whites against other races in USA?
The particular show as Dienekes described it, presents a populace in Tarim which was the product of Mongoloids and Caucasoids (with a bid of Indid element all along) and thus that the Tocharian and Iranic stock that lived there was a mixed population.


On the contrary, Dr. Mair and Prof. JP Mallory showed through their work that:

It is the Afanasevo culture to which we trace the earliest Bronze Age settlers of the Tarim and Turpan basins. The Afanasevo culture (c. 3500–2500 BC) displays cultural and genetic connections with the Indo-European-associated cultures of the Eurasian Steppe yet predates the specifically Indo-Iranian-associated Andronovo culture (c. 2000–900 BC) enough to isolate the Tocharian languages from Indo-Iranian linguistic innovations like satemization.

Mair concluded:

"We have found that EVEN during the first 1,000 years after the Loulan Beauty, the only settlers in the Tarim Basin WERE CAUCASOID. East Asian peoples ONLY began showing up in the eastern portions of the Tarim Basin about 3,000 years ago, Mair said, while the Uighur peoples arrived after the collapse of the Orkon Uighur Kingdom, largely based in modern day Mongolia, around the year 842."

Han Kangxin in Mallory, J. P. & Mair, Victor H. "The Tarim Mummies: Ancient China and the Mystery of the Earliest Peoples from the West", London: Thames & Hudson, has also written that the skulls of 302 mummies he examined relate the earlier Tarim Basin population with the Europoid populations of the Afanasevo culture situated immediately north of the Tarim Basin and the Andronovo culture that spanned Kazakhstan and reached southwards into West Central Asia and the Altai!!!

Well ladies and gentlemen, can you tell me how does the documentary portray the Loulan Beauty as being half Mongoloid-half Europoid when scientists that dedicated time and effort from their lives in studying her support the EXACT OPPOSITE?

They used the mtDNA to represent the various individuals!!!
mtDNA and Y-DNA mutations do not have anything to do with the physical appearance of an individual!
They do not determine the phenotype.
They can postulate only how our ancestors PROBABLY were!!!
Since i am Caucasoid and i do bare a "European" Y-DNA haplogroup if i marry a Capoid woman with a typical DNA of the Capoid people and i have a son, this son of mine would be a Capoid/Caucasoid ancestry man WITH A "EUROPEAN" Y-DNA Hg!!!
If he now marries a Negro woman and again has a son, his son and my grandson would be a Capoid/Negroid/Caucasoid ancestry man WITH A CLEAR "EUROPEAN" Y-DNA Hg!!!
What does this mean?
That my grandson or my son are "Europeans" racially speaking?
Be reasonable people!
Only autosomal DNA can show us things about the racial status of an individual (and that only if natural selection, or genetic drift have not altered the mutations)!!!
It is irrelevant to reconstruct anatomically a person based on his mtDNA WHEN YOU HAVE THE ENTIRE GOD DAMN PERSON MUMMIFIED IN FRONT OF YOU AND IN SUCH A GOOD CONDITION THAT IT IS LIKE IT WAS BURIED YESTERDAY!!!
ONLY BIASED PEOPLE WOULD DO THAT!!!

Showing people who are anatomically Europoid as half-breeds is PROVOCATIVE!
Forensic anthropology has shown that the Tarim Mummies were robust, tall, and very often blond Caucasoids.
WHY DID THEY PORTRAY MOST OF THEM AS HALF-BREEDS OF EUROPOID/MONGOLOID ANCESTRY?
Bad information, you might say!
Really?
HOW CAN ALWAYS "BAD INFORMATION" IN THE BIG AMERICAN SHOWS CONCLUDE IN THE SUPPORT OF MULTIRACIAL AND MULTICULTURAL THESES?
SHOW ME ONE REPORTAGE OR SHOW THAT BY..."BAD INFORMATION" SUPPORTED A NATIONALIST OR RACIALIST THESIS!!!


Dienekes when two years ago you published an essay of Americans who supported that Jews are affecting the foreign policy of the USA, were you anti-Semitic?
Why do you accuse me of being such?
You know essays are not juridicial decisions friend!
It's not a decision of the Court!
It's just beliefs and thoughts of individuals!
Why these folks who wrote this essay, and which you reproduced in your site, are not anti-Semitic and i am?
All they did is what i also did. They monitored some things and wrote about them. I also watched the news, shows and also the behavior and beliefs of Murdoch and his media and wrote my perception!
Why am i "bad" and they or even you, who reproduced their essay, are "good"?

Finally please tell me!
How many Jews do you know THAT SUPPORT THE IDEA OF RACES AND NATIONALISM?
AND HOW MANY DO YOU KNOW THAT SUPPORT ANTI-NATIONALIST AND ANTI-RACIALIST IDEAS?
Do the names Montagu, Boaz, Lewontin, Marx, Freedman, Trotsky (aka Leonstain), Ricardo, Leo Strauss (the founder of neo-conservatists), William Strauss, Oscar Solomon Strauss the Jewish Secretary of Commerce and Labor under President Theodore Roosevelt from 1906 to 1909, Derrida, Herbert Marcuse (the Leftist anti-White Nationalist creator of the "Frankfurt School" ), Benaroya (the creator of the communist party of Greece), Spinoza, Gerald Cohen, Raymond Aaron, Bergson, Berezofsky, Abramovic, Gouzinsky, Zenovief, Rikof, Kamenef, Volodarsky, Wittgenstein and many others say anything to you?
If not let me help you!
All of them are Jews that are either leftists, communists, or capitalist, liberal and generally ANTI-NATIONALIST AND ANTI-RACIALIST INDIVIDUALS.
NAME FIVE JEWISH PERSONALITIES PLEASE WHO SUPPORT RACES!
Just five!!!

Is n't the Jewish people that on the contrary with other nations do not label as "barbarians" or "outlanders" the ones that don't share their blood but GENTILES, meaning the ones that live according to their genus, that live with their biological relatives, and don't consider as their own people the ones who have the same religion as them, EVEN if they don't have the same blood, as Jews do?
Don't you see a very, very long background in the Jewish tradition in opposing the idea of biological related national communities?
Were not the Semites (the Akkadians of Sargon) the first imperialists?
The first people which in order to gain economic profit, absorbed foreign nations in their state, ignoring the fact that this will eventually DESTROY their own nation by admixture?
The proto-Indoeuropeans for example had the idea of the "Lebensraum", the conquering of new lands FOR THEIR PEOPLE ONLY, in order for their kin to live better and not ONLY the ruling class, by jeopardizing the entire nation's biological survival!
Isn't the Jews the most mixed ethnic community of the World, where you can find haplogroups that vary from typical sub-Saharan ones to Amerindian?

Anyway as i said some might say that the documentary was just the result of bad information!
Fine!
But please show me how many documentaries and shows have been promoting Nationalist and Racialist ideas by...bad information and how many the opposite in Jewish owned American media?


P.S. Crimson guard, i am not a Nordicist. Since you're quite old in this site you should have known better!
I have written many comments condemning scientific caricatures like the Nordicism of Gunther, or the Mediterraneanism of Sergi which led to Afrocentricism!
You see the only thing i did is to say the facts and that's what i always do, even if a Mediterranean origin person like me would n't have an interest in doing (like the Kurgan theory that i support) so.
In the Tarim Mummies issue i only wrote what were the facts. That these Mummies were Caucasoid, robust and often blue eyed blonds!
Just because i might be a Mediterranean for example that doesn't mean that i would hesitate to admit the facts!
I only search the just and truth.
If that was such a surprise for you that made you call me a Nordicist, then perhaps it is in these two things, just and truth, that we tremendously differ!!!

Maju said...

i am not a Nordicist.

You are fanatically racist certainly, what specific subtype is irrelevant. Your previous post is clearly transpiring racism every other sentence. Your antisemitic (anti-jewish) discourse, your defense of murderous fascism (dubbed "nationalism"), your obsession with racial purity, specially when affecting West Eurasians (what you call "whites" or "europoids"), etc. All that could have been written by Hitler himself.

I, and surely most other people reading this blog, don't need that junk. I understand I was not substantially wrong about you when I got irked by the way you write before. Now you have thrown off your mask.

Cláudia said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dienekes said...

On the contrary, Dr. Mair and Prof. JP Mallory showed through their work that:

It is the Afanasevo culture to which we trace the earliest Bronze Age settlers of the Tarim and Turpan basins.


In a subsequent paper co-written with Brian Hemphill, Mallory casts doubt into the theory of steppe origins for the earliest inhabitants of Tarim:

"Results obtained by this analysis provide little support for either the steppe hypothesis or the Bactrian oasis hypothesis. Rather, the pattern of phenetic affinities manifested by Bronze Age inhabitants of the Tarim Basin suggests the presence of a population of unknown origin within the Tarim Basin during the early Bronze Age"

By the way Victor Mair is featured prominently in the National Geographic documentary and he doesn't seem to deny that the "Tarim mummies" were "trading genes".

Samuel said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kurika said...

Antigonos, if you don´t liked that, wait for the Great Épic, Hannibal The Proud of Carthage, with Denzel Washington!!!
Or maybe you don´t care, after all he was Semitic-Berbere-Iberian. Not Nordic-White enough...

Antigonos said...

Dienekes Mallory added recently that a second CAUCASOID element was found in the archaic population of the Tarim similar to the Eastern Mediterranean people.
Caucasoid NOT MONGOLOID!!!

The documentary was biased. PERIOD.
It tried to picture the Tarim people as half-breeds WHERE CLEARLY THEIR ANATOMICAL FEATURES ARE CAUCASOID.
That's the whole point.

Dienekes said...

Dienekes Mallory added recently that a second CAUCASOID element was found in the archaic population of the Tarim similar to the Eastern Mediterranean people.
Caucasoid NOT MONGOLOID!!!


The Eastern Mediterranean element was not that of the earliest inhabitants, so it is irrelevant to this discussion.

The early element was described as Proto-Europoid, but does not seem to be affiliated to the steppe populations according to Hemphill and Mallory's analysis.

Dienekes said...

Also, the fact that a population has been described as Europoid does not mean that it did not have Mongoloid admixture. For example, a recent study detected Mongoloid admixture in prehistoric Andronovo people.

Antigonos said...

Maju

I was correct that you are a political correct puppet of Globalization all along!
You see only arrogant, "know-all", people speak and behave as you do!

Since you are NEW to the site (and you already behave like you own it) let me inform you THAT I COMMENTATE HERE FOR THREE YEARS CONTINUOUSLY!!!
I NEVER REJECTED THAT I AM PROUD OF BEING GREEK AND CAUCASOID!
If you go back to past articles you will witness that. BUT SINCE YOU ARE A PREDISPOSING PERSON AND YOU JUDGE OTHERS BY YOUR OWN TACTICS AND THINKING, YOU THOUGHT THAT I WAS HIDING AND THAT I NOW....HAVE THROWN MY....MASK!!!
Well listen pal, i have dedicated my life to my Race and Nation. I AM PROUD THAT I AM NOT A DEGENERATED CAPITALIST AMERICANIZED ROBOT THAT REPRODUCES LIKE A TAPE EVERYTHING THAT HIS SOCIETY TAUGHT HIM TO ACCEPT AND BELIEVE.

Now if you are so shallow-minded that you think that in order to be scientific and orthological you have to be a democrat and a multiracialist Globalization fan THEN YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR MIND!!!
Democracy is just a political system like any other. It is not the political paradise as they taught you to believe!!!
Your political fundamentalism is annoying to me.

Many people here, AND I MEAN MANY, love their roots!
And not only Whites but Blacks, Asians, etc. love their Nations and their Race and wish the survival of those things.

You are so prejudiced that you even misinterpret my words. The things i said about the News in America ARE CORRECT. There is a clear discrimination in favor of non-Whites!
And not only in media unfortunately.

Since you hiding behind the anonymity of your computer you have the ability to accuse me of defending murderous criminal acts since i don't have the ability to press charges against you for being sycophantic and insulting my personality!

If you are not a coward then it is obvious that you have an understanding disability!
What i said is that there is a tenancy to outbid crimes done by Whites to non-Whites and understating crimes done by non Whites to Whites!
WHERE DO YOU SEE ME DEFENDING FASCIST CRIMINAL ACTS?

Next time be more careful when you address me and what words do you use because it is easy and cheap to insult others by hiding behind the anonymity of your monitor.
I doubt though if you would have the nerves to insult me in front of my face.
That's why look at yourself first and your character (and really the looks of you in your photo beside your commentator's name says a lot) and then pass accusations to others.

Antigonos said...

Dienekes the point is that they represented Europoid mummies like Mongoloid half breeds.
It doesn't affect this case if these Proto-Europoids were from Afanasievo or Andronovo, etc.
If they had only skeletons for instance i would have at least give a thought that they might have been mistaken somehow on the reconstruction of the skeletons' appearance.
But having the flesh, hair, mustaches, etc. and even the colors of the dead and try to alter the facts that is unacceptable and disrespectful!!!
It is clearly a biased and pro-mutliracialist documentary that gave a totally wrong appearance of the Loulan Beauty, the Ur-Adam, etc.

Dienekes said...

But having the flesh, hair, mustaches, etc. and even the colors of the dead and try to alter the facts that is unacceptable and disrespectful!!!

What is disrespectful is to reject facts (e.g., their reported East Asian mtDNA affiliation) because they don't conform to your ideal of the Tarim mummies as "racially pure".

pconroy said...

Interestingly, I purchased a book a few years ago called the Mummies of Urumchi, by Elizabeth Wayland Barber, who is a textile expert, and she traced the tartan style cloth worn by the mummies to the North Caucasus region.

As a side not, she theorized that a single group, dressed in such Tartan, from the North Caucasus region started a range expansion, with some going West - to become Celts - and some going East - to become Tocharians.

Of course when I read that recent book, The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World, I still think a case can be made that Indo-European languages were first spoken by the Kura-Araxes Culture, which seem to have introduced metal working, ox wagons and chariots to the North Caucasus/ Pontic Steppe area.

Antigonos said...

"What is disrespectful is to reject facts (e.g., their reported East Asian mtDNA affiliation) because they don't conform to your ideal of the Tarim mummies as racially pure".

And the facts are that the Caucasoid Loulan Beauty and Ur-Adam should be depicted as Mongoloid Half-breeds although they are anatomically not so?

Dienekes said...

And the facts are that the Caucasoid Loulan Beauty and Ur-Adam should be depicted as Mongoloid Half-breeds although they are anatomically not so?

You are seriously confused if you think that they are portrayed as "Mongoloid half-breeds".

Maju said...

Antigonos asked (yelling again): WHERE DO YOU SEE ME DEFENDING FASCIST CRIMINAL ACTS?

I understood this sentence was justifying of genocide under the term "nationalism":

Does he have programs and ESPECIALLY talk shows which support the common global market idea and pictures Nationalism as something bad (like in the Serbian War), yes or no?

Maybe I read too much in it? I read that you think that Chetnik Milosevician fascism and all the genocide it caused directly is not "bad". Is it "good" maybe?

That is what I meant by you making an apology of murderous fascism.

And yes, I am arrogant, but I don't think I own this place. It's Dienekes' and therefore I will try to avoid extending this argument anymore than strictly necesary. After all I am very much aware that boneheads are a race apart, with serious mental problems, with whom it's pointless to argue.

And no, I am not capitalist globalizationist but I could not care less about "racial admixture" or whatever. Endogamy is bad for the "race" - whatever "race", including the human race. I am humanist, I guess.

And you can sue me if you wish. If I have comitted a serious crime, surely Interpol will be able to find me easily. If it's a suspected misdeamanor though... you can pick your nose, sincerely.

Maju said...

Of course when I read that recent book, The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World, I still think a case can be made that Indo-European languages were first spoken by the Kura-Araxes Culture, which seem to have introduced metal working, ox wagons and chariots to the North Caucasus/ Pontic Steppe area.

I have replied to you elsewhere to the same claim. In brief: Kura-Araxes is contemporary of other kurgan cultures elsewhere (in Eastern, Central and SE Europe). It may be proto-Hittite (hunch) and even may be related with Tocharians or even Celts in some obscure way but certainly cannot be considered the ultimate origin of Indo-European languages and cultures, which is with all likehood at Samara valley.

Antigonos said...

Maju,

It is really remarkable how can you hear someone "yelling" by reading a text!!!
Perhaps you're a psychic or something!!!
Or just a rude person which although it has been explained to him why i write in block letters he continuous to misinterpret my acts in order to create arguments in favor of his thesis!!!

MAJU YOU ARE TOTALLY IRRELEVANT WITH POLITICAL ISSUES!!!

"Maybe I read too much in it? I read that you think that Chetnik Milosevician fascism and all the genocide it caused directly is not "bad". Is it "good" maybe"?

Milosevic was a Fascist???
Really now?
Because i haven't seen any Fascist Youth Organizations, neither any Corporatist economic system, nor any eugenic and biological cast based society in former Yugoslavia!!!

Milosevic was just another capitalist ethnocentric christian politician!
Where do you see a Fascist regime?
Except of course if you reproduce what the American media feed you, like for example that Fascism is not a political system but just a term for describing every brutal, warlike regime!
Murdoch's media tried to accuse Nationalism as the reason for the Serbian War WHEN IT WAS CLEARLY A GEOPOLITICAL BASED WAR FOR THE CONTROL OF THE HYDROCARBONS OF CASPIA AND AZERBAIJAN!!!

If USA is so sensitive about "dictators" and "fascist" regimes HOW DOES IT SUPPORT THE KEMALIST TURKEY REGIME?
WHY DOESN'T INTERVENE TO MAKE TURKEY WITHDRAW ITS ARMY FROM THE ILLEGALLY, BASED TO THE U.N., OCCUPIED PART OF CYPRUS?
WHY DOES IT COOPERATE WITH THE PAKISTANI DICTATOR MUSHARAF?
WHY IS HE DIFFERENT FROM MILOSEVIC?

Additionally it is a stupid propaganda to try and accuse Nationalism as something bad!
As it is the scourge of the planet for example!!!

Was Soviet Union Fascist or even Nationalist when it killed millions in Czechoslovakia, Poland, Karelia, Ukraine, etc.?
When Stalin killed any people who opposed him by sending them to labor (aka death) camps in Siberia (the so called "ocean of Gulags") was he a Nationalist?
Was Pol Pot of the Red Khmer a Nationalist?
Was Castro of Cuba?
Was Mao of China?
Were the Americans who killed millions in Hiroshima and Nagasaki with a hideous way Fascists?
Were the Americans who eliminated the Amerindians by millions Fascists?
Where the Allies who bombarded Dresden, Berlin, Piraeus and other non military WW II targets and killed millions Fascists?
Were the Crusaders Fascists?
Are Nationalists or Fascists the muslim Jihad individuals?

You see pal every political system has dome murders, genocides, etc.
Why do the media in USA try and characterize as Fascist or Nationalist EVERY war or conflict done?
What do they afraid in Fascism so much that try to create an icon of it like it was the ONLY problem of this planet EVER?
Find the answer for yourself!

You see it's a God given right for someone to be a nerd and a geek, a TV victim who drinks starbucks coffee all the time and lives on eating McDonald hamburgers!
It is also his/her God given right to ignore basic natural and biological precepts and be a degenerated Globalization's puppet which listens only to "his master's voice" in order to be cool and socially accepted.
But it is not a God given right for anybody to be a sycophant and a provocateur!
Only cowards hide behind the anonymity of their monitor and play smart and tough!!!

Maju said...

For yelling, check the term "Netiquette" in Wikipedia (or wherever). You may learn something.

For Milosevic's regime, I know quite first hand. I am European (so please stop your ranting about US media) and I was in Serbia (and other parts of former Yugoslavia) during the war (for a short period) and I could see how it was like and been told by Serbians, Bosnians and Kosovars themselves. Otherwise my info doesn't come from US sources, at least not primarily. My primary sources are (were) largely Serbians, including Serbobosnian refugees and deserters.

What happened had been planned in anticipation in case Yugoslavia broke apart, as eventually happened. The regime of Mislosevic (that may have inspired others like Berlusconi, Bush or Putin certainly) was based in total disinformation and a mad (but for many years profitable for the few privileged ones) economy of hyperinflation that helped to sell Serbian produce like oil or weapons at very low prices in the international black market. The informal fascist squads' presence was felt everywhere: I've seen a Hungarian barman from Vojvodina being forced to put a Milosevic poster in his tavern on his birthday celebration just minutes after he had torn it apart. I've seen more than enough images of Kosovar corpses. I have been told in first person chilling experiences from the Bosnia war. I have helped a Bosnian deserter to find refuge in EU (immigrate ilegally). I have watched on Serbian TV... nothing of interest: the war did not even exist in the Serbian box.

It was fascism of the worst class comitting crimes against the people that had not been heard of in Europe since WWII.

But this discussion is way off-topic anyhow.

Antigonos said...

Maju said:

"It was fascism of the worst class comitting crimes against the people that had not been heard of in Europe since WWII."

And i repeat myself:

"MAJU YOU ARE TOTALLY IRRELEVANT WITH POLITICAL ISSUES!!!"

Fascism is a political system, an Idea, a Way of Life.
It is not a word for brutality, genocide, etc.!!!
THAT IS WHAT THE WW II WINNERS' PROPAGANDA ASSERTS.
There are no "bad" and "good" political systems!
Only "bad" and "good" people!
And there is also no a priori bad or good in Nature!
In order to feed yourself, which you consider something good i assume, a plant or an animal must die!
What is good for the Turkish nation it might be bad for the Armenian nation and vice versa!
Even if, for argument's sake, we give the word "bad" in politics the meaning of killings, genocides, etc. THAT CAN BE ATTRIBUTED TO ALL POLITICAL SYSTEMS!!!
And bare in mind that History IS ALWAYS written by the ones who win the war and NOT by the ones who loose it!!!
It is too early yet to say what happened in WW II.
And it is AT LEAST naive to present us here the political correct Hollywood's perception of the war between the Allies and the Axis as a battle between Good and Evil!!!
Like the war of Satan and God for example!
WW II was not a conflict of saints and angels from the one side and sinners and demons from the other!
No war in History was such a thing!
Wars are done based on interests, Ideas and ABOVE ALL ON MORAL AND ETHOS differences.
There are a lot of things that we still don't know and the behavior of democracy to NOT ALLOW HISTORIANS WHO HAVE A DIFFERENT OPINION ABOUT THE WAR EVEN TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES BUT INSTEAD IT IS SENDING THEM TO JAIL IT REALLY SAYS A LOT!!!

"For yelling, check the term Netiquette in Wikipedia (or wherever). You may learn something".

It is silly to try and interpret the way you like it why i write in block letters SINCE I HAVE EXPLAINED THE REASON TO YOU THREE CONSECUTIVE TIMES!!!
It would have been OK for you to assume all those stuff that Wikipedia says about writing in block letters, etc. IF I HADN'T ALREADY EXPLAINED TO YOU WHY I P-E-R-S-O-N-A-L-L-Y DO SO!!!
But you know what Euripides used to say:
"You can't convince a person who doesn't want to be convinced".


Your political correct perception about politics and the comments you made above labeling as "Fascist" the Milosevic regime, made me realize one thing today!!!
That you're no different than Islamic fundamentalists who because they have been taught that if they die for Allah they will go to Paradise and have sex with virgins etc. they believe it so!!!
The same happens with you, the political democratic Globalization fundamentalists, that think that the world before the Industrial Revolution and thus before Capitalist and Communist democracies was a Chaos, a living Hell, and that democracy came to create the "Heaven on Earth" situation!

You have accepted A PRIORI the racial, political, philosophical, and worse of all MORAL AND ETHICAL doctrines of democracy and you think any other political system (Feudalism, Fascism, etc.) as something malevolent and demonic!!!

Hence the only difference between you and the Muslim fanatics is that AT LEAST if you talk to the latter and you sincerely ask them "tell me friends why do you believe in Allah, Mohamed, etc.?"
"Can you prove that they are the real God, the real religion?" they will answer "No, we don't have proof but that's the way we were raised, that's our fathers' faith"!!!
You see Maju even in their dark medieval psychology they have a small core of light and realism!
THEY DON'T SAY LIKE YOU, THE DEMOCRATIC AND MULTIRACIAL-MULTICULTURAL FUNDAMENTALISTS, THAT THEY HAVE SCIENTIFIC AND REALISTIC PROOF FOR WHAT THEY BELIEVE!!!
THEY JUST SAY, "THAT'S OUR FAITH". PERIOD.
BUT YOU MY FRIEND ARE MUCH WORSE!!!
BECAUSE ALTHOUGH YOU HAVE BEEN MANIPULATED AND RAISED IN ORDER TO BELIEVE MERE THEORIES AND DOCTRINES, YOU PERSIST THAT THIS IS THE ONE AND ONLY IRREVOCABLE TRUTH!!!
THAT YOUR POLITICAL SYSTEM IS THE "SHANGRI-LA" FOR EXAMPLE!!!
I hope you understand how dangerous and crazy that attitude is.

Maju said...

LOL

I also think that Islamic Fundamentalists are fascists as well. And I am certainly against globalization, at least this kind of globalization. But not because of race issues but beacuse it's socio-economical and ecological madness.

And I also thin we were probably a lot better in the past, though certainly not in the medieval or metal ages past - more like in the Paleolithic maybe. I've always sustained that the great error of humankind was to abandon the tropics (and force nature to adapt to us, instead of remaining in intimate communion with it). Guess it's just to late to fix that, so we will have to reinvent all if we want to be happy.

You are fast to judge without even making the slightest research. But it's basically your problem because your incendiary style of discourse happens not to be credible at all. And your obvious racism, pseudoscience and fascist attitudes are not likely to make you popular anyhow.

Antigonos said...

Maju said:

"And your obvious racism, pseudoscience and fascist attitudes are not likely to make you popular anyhow."

Aha, so you do care if your arguments make you popular or not!!!
My guess about you was correct. I personally am not interested in being popular!!!
I despise behaviors like that of the "queen of the prom"!!!
I leave that for you.

I like to know the truth about the things i deal with!
Most of the people in this site do so too!
If you were no such an arrogant you would have made your research before you speak about this site.
A LOT of commentators here have MY IDEAS!!!
They have talked about negromania in the States, about the underestimation of the racial factor in life, about many things in general!
So you might find it here that you are out of your depth a little bit!!!

Finally by saying: "I also think that Islamic Fundamentalists are fascists as well" you proved me for a third time HOW IRRELEVANT YOU ARE WITH POLITICS!!!
You're just a little robot that TV, school and society pressed the particular buttons in the control panel and the robot behaves and acts EXACTLY as its manipulators wish it to!
The words TRUTH, REALITY and CLARITY simply do not exist in your vocabulary!!!
Your pathetic, pacifist, multiracial ideas are those of a typical hippie who ignores the Laws of Nature and especially the importance of Biodiversity in lifekind.
That's why since you like the Paleolithic age so much why don't you leave Europe and go in an isolate island or a steppe or at least a very high mountain peak and live there for the rest of your life?
And something final!
You are not a Humanist!
You are just another Rabble man!!!
Your hippie ideas that promote anarchy and disorder, BOTH SOCIALLY AND PSYCHOLOGICALLY, can't be attributed to Humans, with the complete sense of the word!
It is another thing to be just anatomically modern human than to be a behaviorally modern human as well!!!
Humans can differentiate the pleasant from the beneficial!
They learn to accept pain, war, death, fatigue when it is necessary as they accept love, peace, joy, life AGAIN when it is necessary!
Humans can distinguish that there is no such thing as a priori good or a priori bad. They act in an appropriate manner even if that is not pleasant to them!
Only buffoons, cowards, "basketcase individuals" and weirdos do whatever their emotions tell them to do, EXACTLY LIKE WHAT THE BEASTS ARE DOING!
People like the above are keeping our Race and our Culture from developing and prospering!
People who would like to be "cool", "trendy", etc. but for many reasons (see ugliness, complexes, etc.) fail to do so and thus they try to present themselves as good and wise by REPEATING AND PROMOTING THE IDEAS THAT ARE CONSIDERED "IN" BY THEIR SOCIETY IN ORDER TO BE ACCEPTED IN THAT SOCIETY!!!

In concluding i am proud to be a Racialist and a Nationalist!!!
I love my ancestors, my kin, my family and my kind and i don't want to see their line been altered or lost!
I respect Nature and i don't consider as progress the "rabble society's" accomplishments like the gay parades, the free drug use, the mixing of races and the end of nations and species in general!
AND I, ON THE CONTRARY WITH YOU, DON'T STAY IN MY PC BY PLAYING SMART FROM A SAFE DISTANCE BUT I MAKE MY IDEAS ACTS IN THE STREETS!!!

terryt said...

Antigonos. Quote: "I love my ancestors ... and i don't want to see their line been altered or lost" and "i don't consider as progress the ... the mixing of races".

Now it's a pretty good bet that your ancestors were themselves a product of a whole series of ancient "mixing of races" going right back to at least as far as the Upper Paleolithic.

Antigonos said...

"You are seriously confused if you think that they are portrayed as Mongoloid half-breeds".

Have you visited any oculist recently?
If not, you should definitely do so!!!

dnoone said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Amir Timur said...

I wonder if the HImalayan dna isnt ydna haplogroup D. I also wonder what the relation of D is to R.
-Amir Timur