January 21, 2011

King Tutunkhamun's DNA in doubt

Royal rumpus over King Tutankhamun's ancestry
Can we be sure which mummy was the daddy? When a state-of-the-art DNA analysis of Tutankhamun and other ancient Egyptian royals was published last year, its authors hailed it as "the final word" on the pharaoh's family tree. But others are now voicing doubts.

The analysis of 11 royal mummies dating from around 1300 BC was carried out by an Egyptian team led by Egypt's chief archaeologist Zahi Hawass. The project was overseen by two foreign consultants, Albert Zink of the EURAC Institute for Mummies and the Iceman in Bolzano, Italy, and Carsten Pusch of the University of Tübingen, Germany.

The researchers used the DNA data to construct a family tree of Tutankhamun and his immediate relatives. The study, published last February in the Journal of the American Medical Association (vol 303, p 638), concluded that Tutankhamun's father was the pharaoh Akhenaten, that his parents were brother and sister, and that two mummified foetuses found in Tutankhamun's tomb were probably his stillborn daughters – conclusions that have since become received wisdom.

But many geneticists complain that the team used inappropriate analysis techniques. Far from being definitive, the study is "not seen as rigorous or convincing", says Eline Lorenzen of the Center for GeoGenetics at the Natural History Museum in Copenhagen, Denmark. "Many of us in the DNA community are surprised that this has been published."

...

To judge the quality of the team's results, Lorenzen and others are asking for access to raw data not included in the Journal of the American Medical Association paper – but Zink is reluctant to oblige, fearing the data would spark "a lot of arguing" over technicalities.

However, Zink, Pusch and colleagues insist that they will soon be able to put any doubts to rest. They say they have also extracted the mtDNA that Lorenzen and others consider necessary for rigorous genetic analysis and are still working on the data. They hope to publish the results this year.

But the critics are still advising caution. "When working with samples that are so well-known, it is important to convince readers that you have the right data," says Lorenzen. "I am not convinced."

This is the paper they are referring to (Ancestry and Pathology in King Tutankhamun's Family, Zahi Hawass et al., JAMA. 2010;303(7):638-647. doi: 10.1001/jama.2010.121)

I don't understand what is the problem with "arguing over technicalities". That's the whole point of releasing as much data as possible, to make it easier for others to evaluate your conclusions. I don't understand why a scientist would want data to be hidden: perhaps it might make sense for nuclear scientists or virus experts to keep some data hidden, but why would Tut's DNA be hidden?

People who liked at Tut's alleged Y-STR values from screencaps have concluded that he belonged to haplogroup R1b; as this is a rare haplogroup in Egypt, and frequent in Europe, it has sparked debate about his origins. If the Y-STR values are legit, an alternative explanation is that the ancient DNA is not authentic but represents a European contaminant. In any case, I hope that as much data as possible about the case is released, so that everyone can make an informed assessment.

57 comments:

pconroy said...

I agree. I was stunned at the possibility of Tut being R1b, but if there are now doubts about the samples, I'd check the DNA of descendant of Howard Carter and others.

Andrada said...

I don't believe that king Tut had the R1b haplogroup, because he looked typically Egyptian, like many Egyptian people from our days. The Egyptians who look like Tutankamon, have the E haplogroup, not R1b. King Tut doesn't look British or German at all.

Average Joe said...

I don't believe that king Tut had the R1b haplogroup, because he looked typically Egyptian

The Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b doesn't affect physical appearance. For example, there are African-Americans and Latinos who are R1b but they don't look European either.

waggg said...

Andrada : I don't believe that king Tut had the R1b haplogroup, because he looked typically Egyptian

The aspect of a person and its haplogroup are two unrelated things.
Haplogroups just indentify a lineage, the specific genetic marker of one individual out of thousands. It's got nothing to do with phenotype.

You could look like an African and be y-DNA I1, for instance.

Considering a nordic guy carrier of a y-DNA I1 mixing (alone) in an African population.

Why would the specific genes for the physical type of the guy that would have given you y-dna I1 be still around if the mixing occured say 4,000 yrs ago, as it is only one "nordic" individual drawned in an ocean of African genes?

Perahu said...

They should have been much more transparent and released the raw data, IMO.

@Andrada,

Haplogroups do not control phenotype.

Jack said...

Tutunkhamun was an alien who landed in Egypt and decided to stay there. Not because it liked the place, but because it had no fuel left. Couldn't believe the bad luck.

Rob said...

There are two countries in Africa that have a fairly high percentage of R1b; Chad and Cameroon.

Maria Grazia said...

Some Egiptians (6%) are R1b1a. Actually R1b1a is spread over all in northern and central Africa, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29
Generally, it's wrong believe that R1b is exclusively European. Some types of R1b are European, other types aren't.

Ponto said...

Lots of assumptions here. One big one is that R1b is as European as Mont Blanc, that is believed to be as ancient as the first humans that wafted into Europe from the east. R1b is found in sub Saharan Africans, in the Jordanian Arabs near the Dead Sea, in Anatolian Turks and in Europeans, principally of the western fringe of Europe. I wouldn't make any assumptions as to its age or true origins. That is still controversial but R1 let alone R1b or R1a appear quite young in the human timeline. My bias is that only those haplogroups that directly bud off F* are West Eurasian, that does not include R, Q, N and the rest which have a number of other mutations or SNP additions from F*.

I don't have any faith in any pronouncements from Egypt about Tutankhamum/Tutankhaten and any of his genetic characteristics. The whole genetic investigation of this Egyptian Mr. T should be done by outsiders. Egyptian scientists are capable but the politics is overpowering, and corruption sets in. Hawass has his agendas, the main one would be to control everything his way. He is one huge control freak, and has too many biases as well as a nasty temper.

waggg said...

@ Ponto : "Lots of assumptions here. One big one is that R1b is as European as Mont Blanc, that is believed to be as ancient as the first humans that wafted into Europe from the east"

OK, but here, the thing is that it was said to likely match a ht15 and as such being clearly related with a typical "European" subclade.

-> http://rokus01.wordpress.com/2010/02/23/secrets-of-the-egyptian-tombs-badly-in-need-of-espionage/

Annie Mouse said...

I could never work out why they did not just determine the haplogroup. Seemed a deliberate obfuscaration to me to be quoting just STRs at that time.

After the first shock of probable R1b I looked into his written patrilineage, and it quickly becomes very unclear. Soldier of no known origin. Plus we have since found that R1b is much more common in North Africa than previously supposed. Plus I dont think they were too fussed with actual fathers in those days. He could have slave ancestry for all we know.

R1b is beleivable, but the work always did feel either shoddy or deliberately unclear.

I doubt European explorer DNA from touches on the surface from a couple of 100 years ago would compare with a whole body worth of much older DNA. Even if it did occur, all they would have to do is try again somewhere more internal.

b said...

let me ask everyone a question just because i've never seen it before.. is it possible for an r1b to be as "dolichocephalic" as the king tut photographs because i have never seen a single r1b in my entire life with a cephalic index as extreme as that.. i realize its supposed to be a unitary autosomal gene but still i've personally never seen it in usa where i am. unless he had skull bands to artificially shape his skull..

Andrada said...

Average Joe and wagg- I know that the haplogroup doesn't always tell what kind of skin and eyes a person has, but this is because modern people are mixed. So, an African can have the I haplogroup, if his father or grandfather or grand....grand...father was a carrier of the I haplogroup. So, an African with the I haplogroup is a person who has mixed ancestry. A person with a mixed ancestry doesn't look like any of the races to which his parents belonged originally, but looks like a person with mixed ancestry.
But, in the case of Tutankamon, we talk about a person who was not mixed at all,but more than that, his parents were relatives to each other. In this case, the haplogroup and the look of Tutankamon must express the same thing, which means to express the typical look of the people who had originally the E haplogroup. And the majority of modern Egyptian people have the E haplogroup and they did not mix with other races or other haplogroups. The modern Egyptian, are not mixed and they look similar to the people represented in the art of the ancient Egyptians. This proofs that the look of the ancient Egyptians was the typical look for the haplogroup E. So, Tutankamon, being unmixed, and having the typical look of the ancient and modern Egyptians, should have had the same haplogroup E.

Andrada said...

The origin of the R1b haplogroup is indeed controversial, with a high chance to originate in the Western Africa, from where it spread to Spain and Western Europe. It is possible to have stayed in Spain during the Last Glaciar Period and after the ice melted, spread North occupying Western Europe, and from there moved to Eastern Europe. This hypothesis make sense, because of the higher percentage of the R1b haplogroup in Western Europe, and the declining toward Eastern Europe and Asia.
The small amount of R1b in Egypt might be since the Roman times, but we will know from sure, only after they will compare it with the Western African and Western European haplogroup.
Still, this is not a proof that king Tut had the R1b haplogroup, since king Tut is not a mixed person and doesn't have features of other races who could have the R1b, like the Western Europeans or like the Western Africans.

Perahu said...

Andrada,

What you are saying is starting to sound very silly.

Only about half of the Egyptian men have haplogroup E, mainly the East African E1b1b variant of course.

That means another half of the Egyptian male population does not carry E. You can not tell the difference phenotypically between an Egyptian with E and one with R for that matter. Your arguments on phenotype are void.

There is also no evidence whatsoever of R1b being of West African origin, that's crazy talk.

waggg said...

"The origin of the R1b haplogroup is indeed controversial, with a high chance to originate in the Western Africa, from where it spread to Spain and Western Europe"

A high chance? There is no reason to think that.
The oldest clades of R1b1b2 are found in Asia minor and the Balkans AFAIK (and the R* & R1* are also clearly found deep in Eurasia BTW).

map of the distribution of the R1b1b2 subclades

"But, in the case of Tutankamon, we talk about a person who was not mixed at all"

You can't know if his paternal lineage wasn't coming from outside of Egypt a long time before.

"having the typical look of the ancient and modern Egyptians, should have had the same haplogroup E"

You assume a lot.

Annie Mouse said...

Haplogroup has no impact on the physical appearance of a person. 2generations is enough to erase evidence of a different racial origin. And the ancient Egyptians were a relatively cosmopolitan people with known contacts with many races.

Plus R1b is old enough to have been in Egypt from the start of the empire.

Clearly to "identify" Akenaten this mummy must also have had the same haplogroup. So identical DNA on corpses that as I recall were not found at the same time or handled by the same people (initially anyway).

Incidentally the King's of France appear to be G2 which is relatively rare in Europe and not at all what would have been predicted from the modern population.

Belenos said...

Thanks to Andrada for showing us that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. If this were wikipdia I'd have put at least 16 cite tags in your posts. How can you possibly know if Tut was "mixed", or indeed if anybody in the world is?

The author of this blog's theories (pre the seemingly mind-blowing recent revelations regarding archaic admixture) would suggest that Tut would be a very good candidate for being a mixed "Eurafrican". No physical anthrpological evidence could definitively disprove this.

And actually it is entirely possible that I, a blond bloke with blue eyes, and apparently completely "unmixed" carry a Y chromosome closely associated with West Africans. It just needs a bit of jiggery pokery 1000 years ago and nobody would be any the wiser until a DNA test.

terryt said...

"R1b is beleivable"

I certainly see no impossibility. There is no reason why it cannot be so.

"The origin of the R1b haplogroup is indeed controversial, with a high chance to originate in the Western Africa, from where it spread to Spain and Western Europe".

Now that's an interesting idea.

"This hypothesis make sense, because of the higher percentage of the R1b haplogroup in Western Europe, and the declining toward Eastern Europe and Asia".

I've always assumed that was the result of later movement west from Eastern Europe and Asia progressively diluting the proportion of R1b in the population. But I suppose your explanation is possible.

astenb said...

To those hypothesizing the whole King Tut=R1b thing you do know they ONLY released two values from the Actual genetic article: 393=13 and H4=11.

That is it. We have no idea what some people were looking at on a computer screen. (2) Str's - Not enough to get anything.

Go here and enter the figures:
http://www.hprg.com/hapest5/hapest5a/hapest5.htm

This website will predict the most likely Haplogroup based on point of origin.

393=13
H4=11.

Notice that it defaults to "Northwestern European"
Which shows:
E1b1b = 3.4%
R1b= 88%
(R1b= the most prominent lineage in Western Europe)

Notice now lets change the location of the individual to "East Europe" :
E1b1b = 4.2%
R1a= 69.8%
(R1a= the most prominent lineage in Eastern Europe)

NOW Notice now when you change the location of the individual to "Mediterranean", which is closest to Africa:
E1b1b = 24.7%
R1b= 48.3%

The Closer you get to Africa the higher the chances are that this is an E1b1b individual. E1b1b being the most dominant aboriginal lineage of the region. King Tut was NOT Eastern or Western European so it makes no sense to run the figures using that context. Notice going from "Western European" to "Mediterranean" the predicted R1b percentage DROPS by 50% and the predicted E1b1b percentage INCREASES by 600%. There is no "African" or "North African" selection, the closest you get is "Mediterranean" and again that shows an increase of 600%.

We cannot get any informations with only 2 STR's. Anyone that has their own predicted Haplogroup go ahead and type in 2 random STR's and tell us what comes up? Based on King tut being a Native Southern Egyptian the most likely lineages would be E1b1b, J, E1b1a, B2a, or K2: These are typically the most dominant lineages in the area in question with the African linages (E1b1b,E1b1a,B2a,) probably being more predominant 3500 years before conquest and the fall of the Egyptian dynastic empire.

Annie Mouse said...

Nice crit AstonB.

But no one bothered to work with such weak evidence as the two STRs. That would indeed have been too difficult to interpret. The question arises if they had more detailed info (and it appears that they did), why did't they release it?

That is why everyone scrambled to squeeze more info from the screen grabs.

No one has denied that the screen grabs are from the actual sample/s. No one at all. And I think the researchers would have denied it if it was random data for the filming.

All this discussion confirms that the data does indeed need to be scientifically reexamined.

apostateimpressions123 said...

Why dont the Egyptians just release the data so that we can all see whether Tut was R1b or E3b or whatever? Why all the secrecy?

Is there any real physiological or craniological proof or whatever that Tut was "Egyptian" looking?

Andrada said...

Perahu and Belenos- what you are saying sounds very arrogant and disrespectful. How many Nobel prices you have won to be so arrogant in the way you talk with other people? Your comments do not show you as having the attitude of "scientists", but shows you as the average moron who lunches personal attacks against other people.
Your assumptions and theories, and also the theories of many Western scientists,are based on the typical racist attitude of the Western world,which CAN NOT accept the fact that people they disregard and they call "third world", can be the creators of very advanced civilizations. Yes, it is so difficult and hard for you to accept, that the Egyptian people, you consider as third grade people, are the descendants of a great civilization, a civilization which existed in times in which in the Western worlds not even monkeys were living, and a civilization which was more advanced, educated and washed as your kings and emperors have ever been.
This is the problem we talk here, that you can not accept any theory which shows that actually those great Faraons, were natives in their country and they were the same race as the local people. You can not accept that the modern Egyptian people are the descendants of those Faraons and of that great and advanced civilization, and this is why, any theory which proves that your theories were design to satisfy your racist believes, are considered "silly" and "little knowledge".

Andrada said...

Perahu- How do you know how many Egyptian people have the E haplogroup? Have you made a study in which you included the entire population of Egypt? What you know about their haplogroups is from some studies made on a very small number of DNA samples, and the conclusions of those studies are not relevant for the entire country, but only for those samples.
Beside, in Egypt the R1b haplogrup is not the second as importance after E, but is a haplogroup found in very small percentage. The next haplogroup after E must be J, because of many migrations, starting from Biblical times,continuing with the migration of Phoenicians, Greeks,Roman Empire, Byzantin Empire and continuing with the expansion of the Muslim religion.
So, any normal person(which means A NOT RACIST PERSON), would assume that the first Egyptians were the local people- having the E haplogroup. On that first level of E haplogroup, came people having the J haplogroup, and later on, during the Roman expansion, some of the carrier of the R1b (The Romans) left their marks in the area. But in the same time, the Romans brought with them other people having the J haplogroup. Then the Byzantin people, than the Muslim expansion, than the Otoman exapansion, brought other samples of J haplogrup and very small traces of R1b.


To clarify my message about the R1b. What I wanted to say is not that the R1b was formed in Western Africa, it was a mistake of writing, but the fact that version of R from which R1b was formed originates in Western Africa. I know, this is a theory very hard to digest for the racist Western Europen minds. But,in Western Africans were found the pre-versions of the R1b at a very high percentage.
The problem of this theory is that the racist minds of some can not accept that they are brothers with the Blacks ;)and that they originate in Africa.
From Western Africa, the carriers of the R haplogroup crossed the Gibraltar and moved to Spain, from where they moved to the entire Europe, but mostly to Western Europe.
The samples of R1b found in Asia represent a very small percentage and they can not originate in that area. In the Balkan area the R1b is found in smaller percentages than in Western Europe, and one has to take in consideration the fact that the Romans stayed in the area for many hundreds years.

Andrada said...

wagg- check the percentage of preR1b and R1b in Western Africa/Cameroon, and you will be surprised to see that it is one of the highest in the world.
"you can't know if his paternal lineage wasn't coming from outside of Egypt a long time before". No, but I know that they were marying in the familly which would have preserved much better the "outside of Egypt" features. Also I made a study on modern Egyptian people, and they have the same shape of the eyes, mouth, hands, legs as the people represented in the Egyptian statues and paintings. I also know many Egyptian people who look almost identical to king Tut, and who do not have R1b haplogroup, but the typical E haplogroup.

Annie Mouse- you didn't pay attention to what I said- king Tut was the result of INCEST. His parents were relatives, which means that the "outside" Egyptian features would have been preserved much better. Beside, the number of people at that time was small, so you can not claim that in 2 generations the original "out of Egypt" feature would have disappeared. This doesn't happen not even today.The grand-grand father of a friend of mine was Japonese, and he still preserved the features.
It is well known that many of the Western European native kings were killed and replaced with a mix of Venetian Black Nobility who had Asian markers and also Asian features.
King Elisabeth II of England, doesn't have the typical British or European look, and these "out of Europe" features were well preserved, because the royal families used to marry their relatives.
In the case of King Tut, we should also see the preservation of his supposedly "out of Egypt" features, for the same reason, that they were also practicing this interbreeding with their relatives. It is very common in the Semitic/Muslim or Jewish world, even today, to marry their relatives.
At the time of king Tut, the Egyptians were not as cosmopolit as you think and the other big civilization which existed during his time or before, didn't have the R1b haplogroup.

Andrada said...

terryt- the Theory that R1b might originate in Western Africa doesn't belong to me, but it is one of the theories the scientists consider, because of the clinal distribution of R1b in Europe and the high level of R1b in Western Africa-Cameroon.

I do not believe that R1b originates in the Balkan area, but it could have arrived there before the LGM, in the same time when arrived in Spain. The native haplogroup of Romania/Balkan area is the I haplogroup and this is the marker which moved toward Western Europe after the LGM. I don't think the people who had this marker I or R1b marker moved from the Balkans because of the Asian migrations, because in Romania/Balkan area, the percentage of Asian markers is very small. For example, in Bulgaria, a so-called Slavic country, the Asian marker- the so-called Slavic marker R1a, represents less than 14%, while the remaining corresponds to the typical OLD Europe markers.
So, I would say that the R1b arrived in the Balkan area in a few migrations- The pre LGM, than the Roman expansion from Western Europe to Eastern Europe, during the Crusade times, when the Pope was encouraging the occupation and colonisation of Catholics and Germans in the Balkanic countries (Romania), and also during the Habsburg's occupation of different parts of Romania and other Eastern European and Balkanic countries, when once again,Germans were settled in the area. The last colonisations in Romania happened during WWII, when Horthy received from Hitler a piece of Romania, the N-W part of Transilvania. From that region, about 500 thousand people were killed/sent to Auschiwitz by the HUngarian troups, and they were replaced with 500 thousands Hungarians people. This is one of the genocide less known in the history, but which had a big impact of the genetic of that area. The most numerous haplgroup of the Hungarians is R1a, followed by I and R1b. So, those 500 thousands Hungarians, depend from which region of Hungary originates, could have contributed to the increase of the R1b and R1a in Romania.
Also, Russia colonised foreigners on the Romanian soil, in the last 200 years, while the native population was displaced, even killed, even sent to Siberia/Kazakstan or other parts of Asia, and replaced with colonists brought from Russia, which once again, changed the percentages of the local markers.
So, all these shows that actually, during modern times, I would say less than 500 years, the Genetic composition of many Eastern European countries was changed and the percentage of R1b and R1a increased in the area and replaced the local I haplogroup.
For a better understanding of the genetic of the local people and the effects of the migrations in the area, I think the Romanians scientists should make many studies using DNA from different cemeteries identified as belonging to different historical periods of time.

Gioiello said...

I think that the request of someone of us that Hawass or others publishes the Tut’s data isn’t strange, it is what usually happens in the Western World. Perhaps Egyptians had a great civilizations (we study and teach it on our schools, like every other important civilizations), but Hawass’ behaviour scents of a strong complex of inferiority: the fear that Tut and his dynasty may be of foreign origin. You say that we are racists: it was your racist mind which wrote those words.
1) it isn’t said that hg. E is African: we have strong arguments to say that it originated in Asia with the brother haplogroup D and migrated to Africa after
2) the recent paper of Trombetta et alii (but there is the great Fulvio Cruciani amongst the researchers) has demonstrated that Europe (above all Italy) has the ancestor of E-M78 (E-V68), and Africa has only its subclades. Then if hg,.E arrived to Europe from Africa (by sea probably and not by Middle East), it happened many thousands of years ago and it isn’t yet said that all African E didn’t come from Asia via Europe
3) hg. R is brother of Q and cousin of NO etc., then no doubt that its origin is in Asia. The African R1b1-V88+ (those Africa has) arrived to Africa from elsewhere: Cruciani thought via Middle East, I said from Italy (or Spain) by sea and he too is taking in consideration this hypothesis. Africa lacks R-V88- and all the subclades (R-389+, R1b1b1, R1b1b2 and all the subclades like the Tut’s R1b1b2a1b4), then R in Africa, apart some R or R1 among the San and arrived tens of thousands of years ago, has come from elsewhere, exactly from Europe, I think from Italy
4) Everything let us suppose that Tutankhamun was R1b, then not Egyptian, I said probably from those Sardinian soldiers who were the body guards of the Egyptian queens.

waggg said...

Andrada : "But,in Western Africans were found the pre-versions of the R1b at a very high percentage. "

There is no pre-version of R1b anywhere in Africa but apparently you are referring to R1b1a (R1b-V88) which is not directly an ancestor of R1b1b2, but I don't see what it changes.

The distribution of the R1b1b2 subclades have been provided (among them, the ancestral clades) but you're free to ignore it, indeed.

"I also know many Egyptian people who look almost identical to king Tut, and who do not have R1b haplogroup, but the typical E haplogroup."

You're pretty stubborn.
Phenotypes and haplogroups are two unrelated things and you can't know if the paternal lineage of king Tut wasn't originally coming from outside Egypt, be it 500 or 2,500 yrs before.
THAT'S A FACT.

You must have some nationalistic bias, given how you'd rather die than accept it.

But have it your way.
Bye.

Andrada said...

Gioiello and Wagg- I am not Egyptian and it is absurd to be accused that my comments are motivated by some "biased nationalistic feelings".
Gioiello- The behaviour of the chief archaeologist of Egypt is his own problem, not mine, I don't know the guy and I don't speak in his name. I don't think his attitude is based on a "complex of inferiority", because other archaeologist from Western countries behave in the same way- for example in Italy- it was impossible for any person to claim that the Etruscan civilization was not native of Italy,because also Italy had its own Hawass.
And yes, the Western scientists are racist, they are the one who invented the "eugenic" theory and they killed or sterilized many "unfit" people. Hitler was inspired from them.
I will post a different message to continue the R1b debate, because it is a very interesting subject, and all the "out of Africa, back in Africa, Asia, Europe" etc theories have many flaws and only by talking openly about all the possibilities, we will hopefully find the truth.

Annie Mouse said...

@Andrada
(1)Western Europe has admired and been fascinated by ancient Egyptian civilizations for hundreds of years, and it has ALWAYS been assumed that they were a people indigenous to Egypt. I fail to see how that is racism.

Frankly the only racism I see here is yours. For example "more advanced, educated and washed as your kings and emperors have ever been." Why do you think that is an acceptable description of any people? What do you think would happen to a person who described any other people in such terms?

Do you really think Western European scientists are more evil, more racist than other peoples scientists ("eugenics etc")? We certainly don't have a monopoly of genocide. Take a good hard look at yourself. Listen to what is coming out of your mind.

Also you make assumptions about how other people view Egyptians with no basis in my/(our) reality, just your own. I don't think that way and I see no evidence that anyone else in this blog other than yourself had such thoughts.

(2) Queen Elizabeth the II of England is a thoroughly German person, and I could probably find someone who looks a lot like her in most of the villages of England. Her even more German father was a much loved King when England and Germany were at war. Her husband, Price Phillip, the father of the the royal line is essentially Greek. I have never heard of any "Venetian Black Nobility" in ancient times, and doubt it, but even if it were to be true no one (but you) would care, beyond to be interested and excited by a new story. All the folk in the UK who recently discovered 17th century African haplogroups seem to have been uniformly thrilled.

(3) I personally know a family who's grandmother was thoroughly Black. Her grandchildren were blonde, blue-eyed and thriving in apartheid South Africa last I heard. Barack Obama's children show little physical trace of their white Granma. On the other hand, many folk in NW Europe have high cheekbones and Mongoloid eyelids that probably date back hundreds if not thousands of years. They have typical Western European haplogroups.

(4) We have little idea what haplogroup King Tut had, other than that all the current evidence points to R1b. R1b could be 18,000 years old, it certainly predates any relevant concept of Western Europe OR ancient Egypt by many thousands of years.

And even if it does turn out that He was a typical Western European R1b haplogroup. Why exactly is this a bad thing to be fought with such aggressive denial?

Some Western Europeans are excited by this because they are proud to be associated with the glory of Ancient Egypt. To think perhaps that one of their ancestors or distant uncles could have been there. A romantic notion based in RESPECT not disrespect for Egypt.

I personally have enjoyed the surprise and ongoing mystery of it. The story is incomplete and there are many more questions to be answered. The situation does not feel right, because the raw data is being concealed rather than shared, because there was clearly additional information that was not released. It puts everything in doubt. It smells of politics. And with reactions like yours I can see why.

Gioiello said...

“Gioiello… for example in Italy- it was impossible for any person to claim that the Etruscan civilization was not native of Italy, because also Italy had its own Hawass”.

Who speaks so demonstrates that he doesn’t know Italy and his researchers. About Etruscans there are many theories supported by many scientists in a free debate: the origin from Asia Minor and Aegean Sea (Herodotus), from North Italy and the theory of autochthony (Dionysius of Alicarnassus), the theory of the formation in Etruria from different supplies (Pallottino). I supported the theory of the autochthony by linguistic and genetic reasons, but also who supports the theory of the Asiatic origin says that the Asiatic genes are less than 10% (I have destroyed this theory by a genetic point of view: see a thread of mine on Worldfamilies: How a theory is made: Etruscans, Italians and "elsewhere" (there I am “Maliclavelli”)).


”I will post a different message to continue the R1b debate, because it is a very interesting subject, and all the "out of Africa, back in Africa, Asia, Europe" etc theories have many flaws and only by talking openly about all the possibilities, we will hopefully find the truth”.

This is what we have always done and are doing and all the Western scientists like us.

apostateimpressions123 said...

Western Europe has admired and been fascinated by ancient Egyptian civilizations for hundreds of years, and it has ALWAYS been assumed that they were a people indigenous to Egypt.

Is that correct? I thought that 19th century and 20th century anthropologists often thought that Europeans formed an upper caste in ancient Egypt. We know of Indo-European invasions into Iran and India to the south as well as into Europe so it is quite believable that IEs or Meds invaded Egypt. And we know that IEs formed an upper caste in India. There is no a priori reason to assume that the pharaohs were "Egyptian" in the modern sense.

These are quotes from eminent men:

"The predynastic Egyptians, that is to say, that stratum of them which was indigenous to North Africa, belonged to a white or light-skinned race with fair hair, who in many particulars resembled the Libyans, who in later historical times lived very near the western bank of the Nile." [E. A. W. Budge (renowned Egyptologist), Egypt in the Neolithic and Archaic Periods (London: Kegan Paul, Trench & Trübner, 1902), p. 49.]

"Among the ancient crania from the Thebaid in the collection in the Department of Human Anatomy in Oxford, there are specimens which must unhesitatingly be considered to be those of Nordic type. If this is so, it would seem that they probably entered Egypt with the other alien elements which began to filter in from Asia in early dynastic times. How far the Nordics ever formed any appreciable element in the population is doubtful, but these specimens prove their existence." [L. H. D. Buxton (Oxford don), The Peoples of Asia (London: Kegan Paul, Trench & Trübner, 1925), p. 50.]

"The oldest representations of ruling Egyptians, who may be presumed to belong to this race, shew remarkably a definitely central or even north European type, and it is very probable that this invading people belonged to an early folk-wandering from the 'Nordic' regions that made its way south through Syria, after possibly a period of settlement there." [H. R. Hall (Keeper of Egyptian Antiquities at the British Museum), A General Introductory Guide to the Egyptian Collections in the British Museum (London: Harrison & Sons, 1930), p. 24.]

"Ancient Egypt, for instance, was essentially a penetration of Caucasoid racial elements into Africa... This civilisation grew out of the settlement of Mediterraneans, Armenoids, even Nordics, and Atlantics in North Africa." [R. Gayre of Gayre (Scottish physical anthropologist), Miscellaneous Racial Studies, 1943-1972 (Edinburgh: Armorial, 1972), p. 85.]

Quotes found here:

http://www.white-history.com/earlson/nordicegypt.htm

Annie Mouse said...

Well most of these quotes are news to me. But then I dont make a habit of reading white supremicist websites.

All the quotes are 20th century but the great interest in Egypt predates that. Also the earliest quote states "indigenous to North Africa". I have no problem with that. Especially if Tut was R1b.

I have long been interested in all the maternal Haplogroup H in North Africa. Did it come down from Spain or flow West along the southern mediterranean from an eastern source?. Either way, its very old.

Strat said...

"Queen Elizabeth the II of England is a thoroughly German person, and I could probably find someone who looks a lot like her in most of the villages of England. Her even more German father was a much loved King when England and Germany were at war."

Both Elizabeth II and her father are far from being thoroughly German-descended in their known family history.

"Her husband, Price Phillip, the father of the the royal line is essentially Greek."

Prince Philip had no Greek blood. In fact, none of the kings of the independent Greece had a drop of Greek blood. They were thoroughly north/central Europeans by blood.

Dienekes said...

Prince Philip had no Greek blood. In fact, none of the kings of the independent Greece had a drop of Greek blood. They were thoroughly north/central Europeans by blood.

That is incorrect, as European nobles often intermarried with Byzantines.

http://wikibin.org/articles/byzantine-ancestry-of-greek-royal-family.html

waggg said...

@ Annie Mouse : "I have long been interested in all the maternal Haplogroup H in North Africa."

Post-last glacial maximum expansion from Iberia to North Africa revealed by fine characterization of mtDNA H haplogroup in Tunisia

"We found that 46% of 81 Tunisian H lineages subscreened for 1,580 bp in mtDNA coding region were affiliated with H1 and H3 subhaplogroups, which are known to have originated in Iberia. Although no signs of local expansion were detected, which would allow a clear dating of their introduction, the younger and less diverse Tunisian H1 and H3 lineages indicate Iberia as the radiating centre."

The Taforalt ancient DNA (about 11,000 BC by the new carbon dating standard, IIRC) in Kefi et al. 2005 also gives interesting informations.

Strat said...

"That is incorrect, as European nobles often intermarried with Byzantines."

Well, in the sources I have read all Greek kings are mentioned as having no Greek blood. But those sources may be neglecting Greek ancestors from more remote times, as, having no recent Greek ancestry, the quantity of the Greek ancestry of the Greek kings wouldn't be different from the average European monarch at the time.

horacioh said...

What it means??, how can you infer that a SNP like R1b, where the mutation is defined at “M343 R1b in the broadest sense”, and one phylogenetic type like R1b M269+ or (R1b1b2*) that is the most common haplogroup in individuals of European descent, that includes as well other mutation at M269 position. Also R1b reaches a frequency of over 90% in parts of Iberia and Western Ireland and decreases eastward towards the Near East, although is present in parts of Central Asia. R1b has always been considered a marker of Paleolithic European hunter-gatherer ancestry. Another variant of R1b are common in West Africa like the Sudan Hausa, and Cameroon as well as another places and peoples in the world.
But with the Y-STR that appears in the original study we can’t say anything about your relation with R or E or other macro Haplogroup , there are some probability with others markers of accuracy odd conclusions like Atlantic Modal Haplotype (AMH) or haplotype 15 that is a Y chromosome haplotype of Y-STR microsatellite variations, associated with the Haplogroup R1b at relatively high frequency, like DYS388 (12) DYS390 (24) DYS391 (11) DYS392 (13) DYS393 (13) DYS394 (14 ), in parenthesis the number core repeat. You say, “People who liked at Tut's alleged Y-STR values from screencaps have concluded that he belonged to haplogroup R1b; as this is a rare haplogroup in Egypt, and frequent in Europe, it has sparked debate about his origins”.
This is not true at all sense you seen, more when the STR are not a well markers in ancient DNA for the broke number core repeat, and you could not know nothing about Y haplogroups that are SNP like Rb1 or E3b for example. Also you say “alternative explanation is that the ancient DNA is not authentic but represents a European contaminant If the Y-STR values are legit”
If you see the original article they say “Negative and blank extraction controls were processed along with each sample. In addition, water and other aqueous polymerase chain reaction (PCR) components were monitored using the sensitive internal-Alu-PCR protocol16 to assess contamination with modern human DNA” and they include “Sixteen Y-chromosomal short tandem Repeats DYS456, DYS389I, DYS390, DYS389II, DYS458, DYS19, DYS385, DYS393, DYS391, DYS439, DYS635, DYS392, Y-GATA-H4,
DYS437, DYS438, DYS448”…. And 8 polymorphic microsatellites of the nuclear genome D13S317 D7S820 D2S1338 D21S11 D16S539 D18S51 CSF1PO FGA. Remind that the staff of the laboratories were testing as well.
With that, not could you say everything about you are telling us, that is more disinformation like the work you display.

Dr. H. H. O. C. –Biochemist-
Argentina.

horacioh said...

What it means??, how can you infer that a SNP like R1b, where the mutation is defined at “M343 R1b in the broadest sense”, and one phylogenetic type like R1b M269+ or (R1b1b2*) that is the most common haplogroup in individuals of European descent, that includes as well other mutation at M269 position. Also R1b reaches a frequency of over 90% in parts of Iberia and Western Ireland and decreases eastward towards the Near East, although is present in parts of Central Asia. R1b has always been considered a marker of Paleolithic European hunter-gatherer ancestry. Another variant of R1b are common in West Africa like the Sudan Hausa, and Cameroon as well as another places and peoples in the world.
But with the Y-STR that appears in the original study we can’t say anything about your relation with R or E or other macro Haplogroup , there are some probability with others markers of accuracy odd conclusions like Atlantic Modal Haplotype (AMH) or haplotype 15 that is a Y chromosome haplotype of Y-STR microsatellite variations, associated with the Haplogroup R1b at relatively high frequency, like DYS388 (12) DYS390 (24) DYS391 (11) DYS392 (13) DYS393 (13) DYS394 (14 ), in parenthesis the number core repeat. You say, “People who liked at Tut's alleged Y-STR values from screencaps have concluded that he belonged to haplogroup R1b; as this is a rare haplogroup in Egypt, and frequent in Europe, it has sparked debate about his origins”.
This is not true at all sense you seen, more when the STR are not a well markers in ancient DNA for the broke number core repeat, and you could not know nothing about Y haplogroups that are SNP like Rb1 or E3b for example. Also you say “alternative explanation is that the ancient DNA is not authentic but represents a European contaminant If the Y-STR values are legit”
If you see the original article they say “Negative and blank extraction controls were processed along with each sample. In addition, water and other aqueous polymerase chain reaction (PCR) components were monitored using the sensitive internal-Alu-PCR protocol16 to assess contamination with modern human DNA” and they include “Sixteen Y-chromosomal short tandem Repeats DYS456, DYS389I, DYS390, DYS389II, DYS458, DYS19, DYS385, DYS393, DYS391, DYS439, DYS635, DYS392, Y-GATA-H4,
DYS437, DYS438, DYS448”…. And 8 polymorphic microsatellites of the nuclear genome D13S317 D7S820 D2S1338 D21S11 D16S539 D18S51 CSF1PO FGA. Remind that the staff of the laboratories were testing as well.
With that, not could you say everything about you are telling us, that is more disinformation like the work you display.

Dr. H. H. O. C. –Biochemist-
Argentina.

terryt said...

"All the quotes are 20th century"

And early during it. From a time when many European people in New Zealand believed that the Polynesians must have had 'Nordic' ancestry. They were not prepared to believe that a bunch of South Sea Island 'savages' could have achieved such voyages of discovery. The quotes display a similar mind set. I'm not denying that there may have been some contribution to ancient Egyptian 'civilisation' from Southwest Asia though.

horacioh said...

What it means??, how can you infer that a SNP like R1b, where the mutation is defined at “M343 R1b in the broadest sense”, and one phylogenetic type like R1b M269+ or (R1b1b2*) that is the most common haplogroup in individuals of European descent, that includes as well other mutation at M269 position. Also R1b reaches a frequency of over 90% in parts of Iberia and Western Ireland and decreases eastward towards the Near East, although is present in parts of Central Asia. R1b has always been considered a marker of Paleolithic European hunter-gatherer ancestry. Another variant of R1b are common in West Africa like the Hausa from Sudan, and people of Cameroon as well as another places and peoples in the world.
But with the Y-STR that appears in the original study we can’t say anything about your relation with R or E or other macro Haplogroup.
There are some probability with others markers of accuracy odd conclusions like Atlantic Modal Haplotype (AMH) or haplotype 15 that is a Y chromosome haplotype of Y-STR microsatellite variations, associated with the Haplogroup R1b at relatively high frequency, like DYS388 (12) DYS390 (24) DYS391 (11) DYS392 (13) DYS393 (13) DYS394 (14 ), in parenthesis the number core repeat. You say, “People who liked at Tut's alleged Y-STR values from screencaps have concluded that he belonged to haplogroup R1b; as this is a rare haplogroup in Egypt, and frequent in Europe, it has sparked debate about his origins”.
This is not true at all sense you seen, more when the STRs are not well markers in ancient DNA, for the broke number core repeat; and you could not know nothing about Y haplogroups that just are SNP like Rb1 or E3b for example. Also you say “alternative explanation is that the ancient DNA is not authentic but represents a European contaminant If the Y-STR values are legit”
If you see the original article they say “Negative and blank extraction controls were processed along with each sample. In addition, water and other aqueous polymerase chain reaction (PCR) components were monitored using the sensitive internal-Alu-PCR protocol16 to assess contamination with modern human DNA” and they include for test “Sixteen Y-chromosomal short tandem Repeats DYS456, DYS389I, DYS390, DYS389II, DYS458, DYS19, DYS385, DYS393, DYS391, DYS439, DYS635, DYS392, Y-GATA-H4,
DYS437, DYS438, DYS448”…. And too 8 polymorphic microsatellites of the nuclear genome D13S317 D7S820 D2S1338 D21S11 D16S539 D18S51 CSF1PO FGA. Remind that the staff of the laboratories were testing as well. Yes how says Lorenzen, it need be done assays over mtDNA.
With that, you could not say everything about you are telling us, that is more disinformation like the work of Hawass et al, that you display.
In our country with huge RT-PCR multiplex doing for recover more than 200 children by “Madres” and “Abuelas de Plaza de Mayo”, and with the kidnapper military peak in jail for ever –only land in the world- . A country with a large number of Scientifics and a lot of them with international prizes including 5 Nobel prizes and great careers here and there. So a new free country, with a really thought freedom, that the economy increases at 9% annual for 8 years consecutively , with only 800.000 inhabitants in 1890 and now 40.100.000 –census Dec. 2010- first –more than USA in proportions- by immigrations from all Europe and the World. We could not understand the government in Egypt, persecuting Christian Coptos from Alexandria and other places because they carry the high E3b markers in Egypt –and could be descendant partially from Jews-, like carried too the Jews Ashkenazim or Ethiopians too as well.

A Biochemist Dr. from Argentina.

horacioh said...

What it means??, how can you infer that a SNP like R1b, where the mutation is defined at “M343 R1b in the broadest sense”, and one phylogenetic type like R1b M269+ or (R1b1b2*) that is the most common haplogroup in individuals of European descent, that includes as well other mutation at M269 position. Also R1b reaches a frequency of over 90% in parts of Iberia and Western Ireland and decreases eastward towards the Near East, although is present in parts of Central Asia. R1b has always been considered a marker of Paleolithic European hunter-gatherer ancestry. Another variant of R1b are common in West Africa like the Hausa from Sudan, and people of Cameroon as well as another places and peoples in the world.
But with the Y-STR that appears in the original study we can’t say anything about your relation with R or E or other macro Haplogroup.
There are some probability with others markers of accuracy odd conclusions like Atlantic Modal Haplotype (AMH) or haplotype 15 that is a Y chromosome haplotype of Y-STR microsatellite variations, associated with the Haplogroup R1b at relatively high frequency, like DYS388 (12) DYS390 (24) DYS391 (11) DYS392 (13) DYS393 (13) DYS394 (14 ), in parenthesis the number core repeat. You say, “People who liked at Tut's alleged Y-STR values from screencaps have concluded that he belonged to haplogroup R1b; as this is a rare haplogroup in Egypt, and frequent in Europe, it has sparked debate about his origins”.
This is not true at all sense you seen, more when the STRs are not well markers in ancient DNA, for the broke number core repeat; and you could not know nothing about Y haplogroups that just are SNP like Rb1 or E3b for example. Also you say “alternative explanation is that the ancient DNA is not authentic but represents a European contaminant If the Y-STR values are legit”
If you see the original article they say “Negative and blank extraction controls were processed along with each sample. In addition, water and other aqueous polymerase chain reaction (PCR) components were monitored using the sensitive internal-Alu-PCR protocol16 to assess contamination with modern human DNA” and they include for test “Sixteen Y-chromosomal short tandem Repeats DYS456, DYS389I, DYS390, DYS389II, DYS458, DYS19, DYS385, DYS393, DYS391, DYS439, DYS635, DYS392, Y-GATA-H4,
DYS437, DYS438, DYS448”…. And too 8 polymorphic microsatellites of the nuclear genome D13S317 D7S820 D2S1338 D21S11 D16S539 D18S51 CSF1PO FGA. Remind that the staff of the laboratories were testing as well. Yes how says Lorenzen, it need be done assays over mtDNA.
With that, you could not say everything about you are telling us, that is more disinformation like the work of Hawass et al, that you display.
In our country with huge RT-PCR multiplex doing for recover more than 200 children by “Madres” and “Abuelas de Plaza de Mayo”, and with the kidnapper military peak in jail for ever –only land in the world- . A country with a large number of Scientifics and a lot of them with international prizes including 5 Nobel prizes and great careers here and there. So a new free country, with a really thought freedom, that the economy increases at 9% annual for 8 years consecutively , with only 800.000 inhabitants in 1890 and now 40.100.000 –census Dec. 2010- first –more than USA in proportions- by immigrations from all Europe and the World. We could not understand the government in Egypt, persecuting Christian Coptos from Alexandria and other places because they carry the high E3b markers in Egypt –and could be descendant partially from Jews-, like carried too the Jews Ashkenazim or Ethiopians too as well.

horacioh said...

What it means??, how can you infer that a SNP like R1b, where the mutation is defined at “M343 R1b in the broadest sense”, and one phylogenetic type like R1b M269+ or (R1b1b2*) that is the most common haplogroup in individuals of European descent, that includes as well other mutation at M269 position. Also R1b reaches a frequency of over 90% in parts of Iberia and Western Ireland and decreases eastward towards the Near East, although is present in parts of Central Asia. R1b has always been considered a marker of Paleolithic European hunter-gatherer ancestry. Another variant of R1b are common in West Africa like the Hausa from Sudan, and people of Cameroon as well as another places and peoples in the world.
But with the Y-STR that appears in the original study we can’t say anything about your relation with R or E or other macro Haplogroup.
There are some probability with others markers of accuracy odd conclusions like Atlantic Modal Haplotype (AMH) or haplotype 15 that is a Y chromosome haplotype of Y-STR microsatellite variations, associated with the Haplogroup R1b at relatively high frequency, like DYS388 (12) DYS390 (24) DYS391 (11) DYS392 (13) DYS393 (13) DYS394 (14 ), in parenthesis the number core repeat. You say, “People who liked at Tut's alleged Y-STR values from screencaps have concluded that he belonged to haplogroup R1b; as this is a rare haplogroup in Egypt, and frequent in Europe, it has sparked debate about his origins”.
This is not true at all sense you seen, more when the STRs are not well markers in ancient DNA, for the broke number core repeat; and you could not know nothing about Y haplogroups that just are SNP like Rb1 or E3b for example. Also you say “alternative explanation is that the ancient DNA is not authentic but represents a European contaminant If the Y-STR values are legit”
If you see the original article they say “Negative and blank extraction controls were processed along with each sample. In addition, water and other aqueous polymerase chain reaction (PCR) components were monitored using the sensitive internal-Alu-PCR protocol16 to assess contamination with modern human DNA” and they include for test “Sixteen Y-chromosomal short tandem Repeats DYS456, DYS389I, DYS390, DYS389II, DYS458, DYS19, DYS385, DYS393, DYS391, DYS439, DYS635, DYS392, Y-GATA-H4,
DYS437, DYS438, DYS448”…. And too 8 polymorphic microsatellites of the nuclear genome D13S317 D7S820 D2S1338 D21S11 D16S539 D18S51 CSF1PO FGA. Remind that the staff of the laboratories were testing as well. Yes how says Lorenzen, it need be done assays over mtDNA.
With that, you could not say everything about you are telling us, that is more disinformation like the work of Hawass et al, that you display.
In our country with huge RT-PCR multiplex doing for recover more than 200 children by “Madres” and “Abuelas de Plaza de Mayo”, and with the kidnapper military peak in jail for ever –only land in the world- . A country with a large number of Scientifics and a lot of them with international prizes including 5 Nobel prizes and great careers here and there. So a new free country, with a really thought freedom, that the economy increases at 9% annual for 8 years consecutively , with only 800.000 inhabitants in 1890 and now 40.100.000 –census Dec. 2010- first –more than USA in proportions- by immigrations from all Europe and the World. We could not understand the government in Egypt, persecuting Christian Coptos from Alexandria and other places because they carry the high E3b markers in Egypt –and could be descendant partially from Jews-, like carried too the Jews Ashkenazim or Ethiopians too as well.

Argentina.

Strat said...

A note on Byzantine emperors: Byzantine emperors themselves were highly admixed with various ethnic groups of Europe and West Asia. In fact, some of Byzantine emperors had no Greek blood.

horacioh said...

What it means??, how can you infer that a SNP like R1b, where the mutation is defined at “M343 R1b in the broadest sense”, and one phylogenetic type like R1b M269+ or (R1b1b2*) that is the most common haplogroup in individuals of European descent, that includes as well other mutation at M269 position. Also R1b reaches a frequency of over 90% in parts of Iberia and Western Ireland and decreases eastward towards the Near East, although is present in parts of Central Asia. R1b has always been considered a marker of Paleolithic European hunter-gatherer ancestry. Another variant of R1b are common in West Africa like the Hausa from Sudan, and people of Cameroon as well as another places and peoples in the world.
But with the Y-STR that appears in the original study we can’t say anything about your relation with R or E or other macro Haplogroup.
There are some probability with others markers of accuracy odd conclusions like Atlantic Modal Haplotype (AMH) or haplotype 15 that is a Y chromosome haplotype of Y-STR microsatellite variations, associated with the Haplogroup R1b at relatively high frequency, like DYS388 (12) DYS390 (24) DYS391 (11) DYS392 (13) DYS393 (13) DYS394 (14 ), in parenthesis the number core repeat. You say, “People who liked at Tut's alleged Y-STR values from screencaps have concluded that he belonged to haplogroup R1b; as this is a rare haplogroup in Egypt, and frequent in Europe, it has sparked debate about his origins”.
This is not true at all sense you seen, more when the STRs are not well markers in ancient DNA, for the broke number core repeat; and you could not know nothing about Y haplogroups that just are SNP like Rb1 or E3b for example. Also you say “alternative explanation is that the ancient DNA is not authentic but represents a European contaminant If the Y-STR values are legit”
If you see the original article they say “Negative and blank extraction controls were processed along with each sample. In addition, water and other aqueous polymerase chain reaction (PCR) components were monitored using the sensitive internal-Alu-PCR protocol16 to assess contamination with modern human DNA” and they include for test “Sixteen Y-chromosomal short tandem Repeats DYS456, DYS389I, DYS390, DYS389II, DYS458, DYS19, DYS385, DYS393, DYS391, DYS439, DYS635, DYS392, Y-GATA-H4,
DYS437, DYS438, DYS448”…. And too 8 polymorphic microsatellites of the nuclear genome D13S317 D7S820 D2S1338 D21S11 D16S539 D18S51 CSF1PO FGA. Remind that the staff of the laboratories were testing as well. Yes how says Lorenzen, it need be done assays over mtDNA.
With that, you could not say everything about you are telling us, that is more disinformation like the work of Hawass et al, that you display. Don’t worry for the case who are the Haplogroup, E3b or Rb1 or other else, but if we can known the answer we need how you say, “In any case, I hope that as much data as possible about the case is released, so that everyone can make an informed assessment”.
Dr. H.H.O.C.
Argentina.

astenb said...

I think people are still putting too much faith in a screen shot that was most likely a control sample. Going from the actual technical data that was released its pretty clear to see not much can be done with only 2 STR's. King Tut carrying the most common lineage in Western Europe I believe is more wishful thinking that some would WANT to be true, versus something those same people actually BELIEVE to be true.

Quotes from user "apostateimpressions123" gives examples of this old type thinking on Africa that has yet to be obsolete. The "Dynastic Theory" was pretty much done away with. I dont see how anyone that that has studied the least bit of Egyptian history, or simply population migration and origin would submit to a theory even more fringe than the Dynastic Theory - that King Tut carried the most common lineage in Western Europe.

Sure anything is POSSIBLE, but to make the assumption: Tut=R1b1b2a1 based on such flimsy non official evidence as a screen shot speaks of old attitudes supported by those earlier quotes.

Annie Mouse said...

Since we are nit-picking...

Elizabeth the II 's mother was largely British, but her Royal father was almost as German as it is possible for a royal to be (House of Hanover). His closest ethnically British ancestor was James the VI and I (1566-1627, House of Stuart), and even his mother was half French (Mary Queen of Scots).

To get back to a single, mostly ethnically British ancestor, you have to go back almost 500 years to Mary Queen of Scots husband (and cousin), Henry Stuart (Lord Darnley).

apostateimpressions123 said...

Here are some more quotes from authors of the 19th and 20th centuries on the racial features of ancient Egyptians.

“The tomb of the wife of Zoser, the builder of the first pyramid in Egypt, has a painting of her showing her with reddish-blond hair.” (‘The Ra Expeditions’, Thor Heyerdahl, Garden City, Doubleday, 1971, p.249)

"A funerary mask with the attributes of the goddess Isis shows a vivid blue-green color of eyes.” (‘A General Introduction to the Egyptian Collections in the British Museum’, London, Harrison and Sons, 1930, p.49)

“The mummy of the wife of King Tutankhamen has auburn hair.” (‘Tutankhamen, The Golden Monarch’, Michael Carter, N.Y. 1972 p.68)

“Red-haired mummies were found in the crocodile-caverns of Aboufaida.” (‘Remarks on Mr. Flinders Petries Collection of Ethnographic Types from the Monuments of Egypt’, Henry George Tomkins, Journal of the Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland Vol. XVIIII, 1889, p.216)

“A blond mummy was found at Kawamil along with many chestnut-colored ones.” (‘L'Aryen, Sa Vie Sociale’, De Lapouge, G. Vacher,. Paris, Pichat, 1899, p.26)

“Amenhotep III's tomb painting shows him as having light red hair.” (‘Ancient Egypt, Discovering its Splendors’, National Geographic Society, 1978 p.103)

“An Egyptian scribe named Sakkarah around 2500 B.C. has blue eyes.” (‘Life of the Ancient Egyptians’, Eugen Strouhal, Norman, Oklahoma, University of Oklahoma Press, 1992, p.53)

“A common good luck charm was the eye of Horus, the so-called Wedjat Eye. The eye is always blue, and the word "wedjat" means "blue" in Egyptian. Queen Thi is painted as having a rosy complexion, blue eyes and blond hair.” (‘Races Humaines de la Vallee du Nil’, E.T. Hamy, Bulletin de la Societe d'Anthropologie de Paris, 1886, p.739)

“Paintings from the Third Dynasty show native Egyptians with red hair and blue eyes.” (‘Historia del Arte Vol III’, Jose Pijoan, Madrid, Espasa-Calpe, 1932, plate XI)

“The god Nuit was painted as white and blond.”(‘Le Nil et la Societe Egyptienne’, H. Champollion, Marseille, Musee Boreby, 1973 p.94)

“A painting from Iteti's tomb at Saqqara shows a very Nordic-looking man with blond hair.” (‘Painting, Sculpture and Architecture of Ancient Egypt’, Wolfhart Westendorf, New York, Harry N. Abrams, Inc. 1968 p.65)

Quotes were found here: http://www.white-history.com/hwr8.htm

curmudgeon said...

The mummies of two of the primary women in the investigation of Tutankhamun's genetics lie stored behind a brick wall in KV35 rather, surpassing all understanding, stored at the Cairo Museum. The mummies are those of Tiyi and Nefertiti, known as the "elder woman" and the "younger woman" respectively. Zahi Hawas went ballistic when Joann Fletcher identified the younger mummy as Nefertiti even though Marianne Luban had done so in 1999. Hair from the "alder Lady" was compared to a lock of Tiyi's hair in a small gold casket placed in Tut's tomb and found to be the same. The genetic finding that Tut's parents were brother and sister could also be consistent with my opinion that Ut was the son of Tity and Amenhotep III, hence Akhenaton's brother, not his son. There is something very political and agenda driven in the sloppy science in this case.

Annie Mouse said...

Well that, Apostate, fits with other mummys found in North Africa. Seems to have been a a very cosmopolitan area, as I said.

horacioh said...

About the eye colors, this can’t be seen by the STRs tested (in Hawass work) or also a SNP of the Y chromosome –not performed-, and we can’t say anything about, more when there were not done any assays over it.
There are about 16 different genes responsible for eye color, it is mostly attributed to two adjacent genes on chromosome 15, hect domain and RCC1-like domain-containing protein 2 (HERC2) and ocular albinism (that is, oculocutaneous albinism II (OCA2)). An intron in HERC2 contains the promoter region for OCA2, affecting its expression. Therefore, singlenucleotide polymorphisms SNP in either of these two genes have a large role in the eye color of an individual. Furthermore, with all genetic expression, aberration also occurs. Some individuals may express two phenotypes—one in each eye—or a complete lack of pigmentation, ocular albinism. We could say that a conserved regulatory element within intron 86 of the HERC2 gene that is perfectly associated with the brown/blue eye color, in studied individuals from Denmark, Turkey and Jordan. This element had an inhibitory eVect on the OCA2 promoter activity in cell cultures, and the blue and the brown alleles were shown to bind non-identical subsets of nuclear extracts. In total, all these data strongly support a model where the blue eye color in humans is caused by homozygosity of the rs12913832*G allele.
In ancient Egypt, color was an integral part of the substance and being of everything in life. The color of something was a clue to the substance or heart of the matter. When it was said that one could not know the color of the gods, it meant that they themselves were unknowable, and could never be completely understood.
In art, colors were clues to the nature of the beings depicted in the work. For instance, when Amon was portrayed with blue skin, it alluded to his cosmic aspect. Osiris' green skin was a reference to his power over vegetation and to his own resurrection.
Of course, not every use of color in Egyptian art was symbolic. When overlapping objects, such as when portraying a row of oxen, the colors of each animal is alternated so as to differentiate each individual beast. Apart from these practical considerations though, it is safe to say that the Egyptian use of color in their art was largely symbolic.
The Egyptian artist had at his disposal six colors: green, yellow, blue, red, and also including black and white. These colors were generated largely from mineral compounds and thus retain their vibrancy over the millennia. Each of these colors had their own intrinsic symbolic meaning, as shown below. However, the ambivalence of meaning demonstrated by some should be carefully noted.

horacioh said...

In ancient Egypt, color was an integral part of the substance and being of everything in life. The color of something was a clue to the substance or heart of the matter. When it was said that one could not know the color of the gods, it meant that they themselves were unknowable, and could never be completely understood.
In art, colors were clues to the nature of the beings depicted in the work. For instance, when Amon was portrayed with blue skin, it alluded to his cosmic aspect. Osiris' green skin was a reference to his power over vegetation and to his own resurrection.
Of course, not every use of color in Egyptian art was symbolic. When overlapping objects, such as when portraying a row of oxen, the colors of each animal is alternated so as to differentiate each individual beast. Apart from these practical considerations though, it is safe to say that the Egyptian use of color in their art was largely symbolic.
The Egyptian artist had at his disposal six colors: green, yellow, blue, red, and also including black and white. These colors were generated largely from mineral compounds and thus retain their vibrancy over the millennia. Each of these colors had their own intrinsic symbolic meaning, as shown below. However, the ambivalence of meaning demonstrated by some should be carefully noted.
The color green (wadj) was the color of vegetation and new life. To do "green things" was slang for beneficial, life-producing behavior. As mentioned above, Osiris was often portrayed with green skin and was also referred to as "the Great Green". Green malachite was a symbol of joy and the land of the blessed dead was described as the "field of malachite." In Chapter 77 of the Book of the Dead, it is said that the deceased will become a falcon "whose wings are of green stone". Highly impractical of course, it is obvious that the color of new life and re-birth is what is important. The Eye of Horus amulet was commonly made of green stone as well.
Red (desher) was the color of life and of victory Red was also a symbol of anger and fire. Seth, the god who stood at the prow of the sun's barque and slew the serpent Apep daily, had red eyes and hair. The normal skin tone of Egyptian men was depicted as red, without any negative connotation. The color white (hedj and shesep) suggested omnipotence and purity. Due to its lack of color white was also the color of simple and sacred things. In ancient Egypt, black (kem) was a symbol of death and of the night.
The color yellow (khenet, kenit) for example was related to the skin and bones of the Gods were believed to be made of gold, eternal and indestructible. Osiris and Anubis., both are divine beings and both have golden skin. Both the sun and gold were yellow and shared the qualities of being imperishable. Blue (irtiu, sbedj) Blue was symbolic of the sky and of water. In a cosmic sense, this extended its symbolism to the heavens and of the primeval floods. In both of these cases, blue took on a meaning of life and re-birth. Amon was often shown with a blue face to symbolize his role in the creation of the world. The pharoahs were sometimes shown with blue faces as well when they became identified with Amon, also the god Anubis have blue hair.

formerjerseyboy said...

I am very much an amateur, but I think that I know enough about human genetics to state confidently that belonging to haplogroup R1b cannot be correlated directly with any standard racial classification. There are a lot of other genes that determine human characteristics associated with racisl phenotyping (including genes for hair, skin, and eye color), and I did not see these discussed in the original source. What I did see in the comments was a lapse into racially charged profiling from several quarters. Even in this day and age, what "race" the ancient Egyptians were continues to generate controversy, much of which is patently absurd.

allen said...

Probably the best case to be made for the bizarre-
unprecendented to put it frankly-
completely nonsensical refusal to release the BASIC data relating to the Tut genetics,

====IS THAT TUT IS R1b,====

and this clearly is not to the liking of Egyptian authorities.
To withold basic information, that without it, essentially negates the entire study from any informational perspective, is a huge red flag.
To even bother to withhold the Tut STR's makes no sense, but to adamantly refuse to either release or merely COMMENT on the Tut haplogroup while publishing what are data-less papers,

is pretty clear indication that they have a result they dont want to in any way publicize, and we already have a pretty good idea of what that is going to be.

Hawass is alleged to have given a breifing back when this originally was taken public, at which he told foreign archaeological staff and students a tale about Tut being proven to be the son of a contemoprary 'greek' diplomat to the Pharoahs court,
which sounds a lot like they were sounding-out various ways of selling Tuts results.

In the end, they dealt with them by HIDING THEM. Anyone who knows Hawass, knows that releasing anything that he told you not to,
will not only end your permission to dig in Egypt permanently, you will not be able to even get into egypt by the time he is done with you.

Afriqash said...

Andrada
western science and fictional narrative of history was conceived in sin and born in crime. If anyone doubts it read the unapologetic racist founders of this utterly fraudulent and degenerate narrative. The illegitimate children of the racist cult/civilization expect the rest of humanity to follow suit in their blonde fetishes and bow their heads at some nordic alter. Their vanity, avarice and greed has brought humanity to the brink of moral bankruptcy and environmental catastrophe. They are like headless chicken running around aimlessly, because they lack any "genetic" memory and connection to authentic tradition. Unless the new generation of perhaps well meaning scholars develop an ethical code in the western academics and make a clean break from the original narrative of self-appropriation, blundering, and theft they will continue to reduce the ancients to gibberish and humanity to monkeys. In the meanwhile, the rest of humanity should continue to hold their finger in the dyke until the waves sophisticated brutes and the hour of their good fortune passes.

As for, egypt I hope their days of subservience to this demonic cult(this is ultimately what racism is)has passed, if so the days of pyramid pimps like hawass are numbered. I challenge modern egyptians who have inherited the land to come to the cushitic cultures of the horn and they will find the remnants of its foundation, or they will never achieve any true rebirth beyond pimping stones and pictures of the past. It does not matter wether they are light skinned or dark, its about being true to what you claim, or remaining an empty meaningless shell unable to make sense of the present or the past.

I made a general statement, but I think it needs to be said. its more useful then arguing with the likes of goiello about the details without addressing first the corrupt foundation of western academia and its bitter harvest for humanity in general.

Average Joe said...

If the Y-STR values are legit, an alternative explanation is that the ancient DNA is not authentic but represents a European contaminant.

Don't you think that the original researchers would have taken the risk of contamination into account and made sure to take precautions to prevent it?

horacioh said...

The dubt is not for the Tutankhamen Haplogroup that was not tested. It was about if they really compound a well Pedigree as a Royal family; for this we need to be sampled the all royal mummy mtDNA like said Eline D. Lorenzen. The great question is ultimately about Smenkhkare.
The body found buried in tomb KV55 was likely the father of Tutankhamun, spouse of the Younger Lady of KV35, and the son of Amenhotep III and queen Tiye. The age of the mummy is mostly given as that of 18-21 years of age at death, based on numerous studies in the past- but not 35 or more years-. The recent genetic study has claimed the body KV55 as that of Akhenaten.
Scholars identify the male Smenkhkare as an older close relative of Tutankhamun, with both classified as either sons or sons-in-law of Akhenaten. One theory holds that Smenkhkare was Akhenaten's male lover as well as co-regent –with bisexual behavior-, due to images found where a male (believed to be Smenkhkare) was depicted beside Akhenaten in a manner very similar to how Nefertiti was shown in earlier records. Some believe that the figure is meant to be Nefertiti, or one of Akhenaten's daughters, who took the place of her mother in the religious and political hierarchy due to the necessity of both roles in Atenism (after the theoretical death of Nefertiti). The figure is not dressed in a manner typical of the way the females in Akhenaten's family were depicted. Its clothing is more similar to Akhenaten's garments.
Though this statement will be subject to discussion for a while, as some still think the age estimates are against Akhenaten, and support the identification as Smenkhkare instead.
Remember also that, the idea of Akhenaten as the pioneer of a monotheistic religion that later became Judaism has been considered by various scholars. One of the first to mention this was Sigmund Freud, the founder of Psychoanalysis, in his book Moses and Monotheism. Freud argued that Moses had been an Atenist priest forced to leave Egypt with his followers after Akhenaten's death. Freud argued that Akhenaten was striving to promote monotheism, something that the biblical Moses was able to achieve.
Following his book, the concept entered popular consciousness and serious research. Others in fact believe that Akhenaten. Was Moses.

Dr. H. H.O. C.
Argentina.