I won't reveal the origins of the four composites in the earlier post, since this would give out info on these four, all of which belong to a different group. Once again, guess away!
In latin script writing order: (1) North African (not sure, could be some sort of Latin American too), (2) Swedish, Polish or otherwise NE European, (3) undefined southern European (Italian maybe?) and (4) undefined NW European (German?).
LT:Thin upper lip and hanging lower lip and kind of a fleshy nose. Middle Eastern. RT: South Slav BL: Thin lipps, Hellenistic/Roman area. BR: Wavy lipps, no idea could be anything.
Same faces as before, but with different facial expressions. Bah! If i must stick to the game, I know that the the: TL is not European looking. The rest were more or less conceived with in vitro fertilization given the soulless, glazed tuatacilook in their eyes.
When are the answers coming? This is great fun. Actually, now that I read the others' comments and notice the colours of their shirts, I think top left is Arab. These are composites of football teams, right?
TL: Iberian, but I think could pass as dark phenotyped West European. TR: Slavic or Balkan BL: Greek, has some Near East elements BR: German/Austrian, slight East Euro element
The problem is that static pictures are deceiving. Even worse I find the hairline and the fuzzy hair of these composites confusing at times. The pictures have different background colors, etc. So, it's really half guesswork. I wouldn't be too suprised if they were all Nigerians.
Same here for the Hungarian (the others I got quite right). I have the archetype of the Hungarian man as short, alpinoid, large nosed pipe-smoker guy... but seems I was focusing in some particular variant and not the average.
One thing I've learned in this exercise is that the Nordoid typology has a quite marked penetration in the Danubian basin, as both the Hungarian and the Rumanian were the hardest to guess to me. In both cases I pointed further north, though the similitude between the Polish and the Rumanian is striking - what excuses my earlier error.
Well, I did say that the TL was not European looking. As for the Hungarian I thought he looked somewhat Gernmanic although I didn't say so. I have met very few Hungarians personally however from what I have seen I agree that Hungary is a possible option for the BR face.
Well, the bottom right doesn't look like any Hungarian I have ever met, but he does look a bit like a mixture between Hungarians/ middle-S/E Europeans and Austrians. Which may just mean that these composites achieve more of a homogenization than is present in actual life.
Any thought of presenting these facial averages in a more specific way?
In some countries, there seem to be regional differences in facial "looks" and haplogroupings.
I am wondering if you can see that in these pictures.
For instance, what is the facial difference between a Scot from an R1b vs. R1a dominated region? What is the average facial difference between a Northern and Southern Greek or a Northwestern or Northeastern Greek?
Interestingly enough, there seems to be a significant facial difference from a Spaniard and a Portuguese. Is it possible to further resolve the facial differences in Spaniards? (Euskaran speaker vs Spanish, for instance.)
I realize this might be getting into dangerous territory, but still fascinating.
I am wondering if you can see that in these pictures.
I presume that if you make regionalized blends you should see some of them. But as mentioned by Ebizur, the averaged face does not need to be the same as the most common type(s) of face. It's just a forced composite.
It may give some idea but that's about it.
Also I recall a composite exercis by Dienekes some time ago, where he compared north and south Italians of three professional groups (with public profile): soccer players (males), fashion models (females) and politicians (males). The most curious thing was that in spite of some N/S differences the composites looked more alike by profession than by any other measure. Footballers and politicians looked like two totally different populations in fact (not counting some expected variants like age and use of glasses). Italian footballers had long faces while politicians had round faces, making a very clear difference along not ethnic or geographic lines but professional ones. Of course models also looked much like the same unreal girl all the time as well.
As a soccer player, with the exception of a few positions, it is advantageous to be at least around 180cm tall (taller for the goalie and center defense). My guess is that if you take that as a criterion, especially in mid-to-southern Italy, you are already taking quite a limited selection of the general population - perhaps with more northern or Croatian background, for example.
So, to further comment on the feasibility and consequences of averaging over an entire country - consider Germany. If you ever had the opportunity to visit it, you'll have notice that Germans in Schleswig-Holstein look awfully like Danes, those in the extreme NW like Dutch, those in the Southern Rhineland and Baden-Wuertemberg like the adjacent Alsatian/French and Swiss, and so on. Which is understandable, but also seems to make it futile to try to derive one type over more than a specific region.
Below are some random examples for your amusement(note that in the group pictures, not all people are of regional descent, nor even ethnically German). You may want to stretch the pop-up window for easier reading and copying and pasting.
South-Central East Germany (NE Bavaria - Thuringia - Saxony; I fall into this type) ===================================================================================
Joachim Merkel (Angela's husband): http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Joachim_Sauer.jpg
Michael Ballack: http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kuvr7k2RFf1qzhwcq.jpg
Thanks for putting up some facial averages for Germany. It will be fun to study these.
Yes, Germany and France obviously have quite obvious regional differences with some people still knowing of their native region.
Again, thanks for taking the time to put up these averages. (I have a number of French and German friends and it will be fun to try to figure out into which group they might fit.)
And, as noted above, it's some of the unusual features of a population that make it so interesting. The big noses, stick out ears, close set eyes and over bites. Somehow, we still manage to be somewhat attractive in spite of these idiosyncrasies.
Just to clarify: the links I posted are of course not averages - just images I found that come close to my observation of some regional types.
In many countries I find that there are some "typical" features and faces, but in specific regions you'll find huge variations and deviations from the expected "norm." That's what I meant above: real life seems to be able to maintain a significant variety, some of that perhaps ancient features, rather than tending to homogenization.
Last not least, nutrition also plays a huge role. I can even observe in my own family that in past generations (poorer nutrition), skulls seemed more angled at the forehead or less tall, and shorter with a taller, straighter back. Whereas I have an occipital bun a Neanderthal could be proud of - to the extent that in some very new cars, the headrest bothers me... ;)
Given my background, over the years, I've always been curious to observe the subtle differences in people's faces.
So I would agree with you that between these four regions, Northern Germany, Southwest Germany, Southeast Germany and close to the Czech border, there is a significant difference in hair color and facial appearance.
(Even though we have to admit to a small sample size.)
The most obvious difference is the greater degree of blondism in the North. Kinda obvious, hey?
Interestingly, there is subtle but perceptible difference between Southwest Germany and Saxony. I can't quite put my finger on it.
Most amusing to me were how similar some of Southwest German pictures appear to be similar to people from the British Isles. (Medium to dark brown straight hair sometimes in combination with blue eyes, slight upper body, tall, long legged, narrow nose bridge and long neck.
Oddly enough, I've also observed this particular look in the mountains of Northern Greece, although the blue eye brown hair thing is less common.
(I'm Canadian, Scottish by origin.)
I see a lot of red haired Germans here in San Francisco. Red hair is also quite common in Scotland. I didn't see much red hair in your pictures, but I was wondering where in Germany that is most prevalent?
I agree with you about nutrition. My husband was born in Philadelphia, but his parents were born in Greece. They grew up during the war and Greek civil war. My husband is 204cm in height, while his father and uncle are about 183 cms. The main difference in height comes from longer legs.
Finally, I have been to Germany . . . mostly Freiburg, Heidelburg and Munich. Something that really captivates me about that area is the skill of the stone masons. There is also great stone building ability in Greece, by the way. I think you would be quite captivated if you every travelled to the Zagoria.
Again, thank you for posting the pictures. It was most generous of you.
Interestingly, there is subtle but perceptible difference between Southwest Germany and Saxony. I can't quite put my finger on it.
Yes, there is some type in Saxony/Thuringia that does not exist elsewhere quite like that in Germany, nor in neighboring Poland or the Czech Republic. This is perhaps at the ~10% level (the remainder look more like the adjacent regions, and quite close to the German "Franks").
Remember, though, that modern-day "Saxony" has absolutely nothing to do with Saxons (it is just named that way, for weird reasons).
Some of the characteristics I find, which may or may not be meaningful:
- straight but unruly hair that is quite wavy or curly when long
- very dark brown to almost black hair as adult (even if quite blond or straw blond as child)
- higher occurrence of brown eyes
- relatively dark skin both with and without sun exposure; quite dark skin (for the latitude) with sun exposure
- tame, kind, friendly, jovial, sometimes chubby-looking face with deeply marked diamond-shaped creases around the mouth
- quite small face (small area between lips and eyes compared to total frontal area)
- smallish nose with relatively broad base and broad lower portion
- sometimes quite full lips
A large fraction of people that come from this region and look like the above and that I either know or know about seem to have a predisposition for:
- painting and drawing - music (absolute hearing and playing instruments/ singing) - education/ teaching/ pedagogy - leading or consoling individuals/ groups - entrepreneurship - detail-oriented handicrafts and science - process versus result orientation - obsession with information and connections/associations
It's the nose that is so different. And the distance between the top of the mouth and the bottom of the nose.
I've noticed that many people from the British Isles have a longer distance between the top of the mouth and the bottom of the nose.
What does seem to be quite evident is that, wherever we are from, we seem to have very finely attuned powers of observation to discriminate against nearby, but different, ethnic groups.
The Irish, Scottish and English seem to spend a lot of time studying the extremely subtle differences between themselves.
My husband's village in Greece is 50 miles from the Albanian border. Everyone there swears that they can see a difference between Albanians and Greeks, even though I cannot pick this out.
All this fine tuned observation seems to be rather amusing to a Canadian or American, although, to be honest, we do it here too.
I've noticed that many people from the British Isles have a longer distance between the top of the mouth and the bottom of the nose.
That's pretty much the archetypal caricature of the English people, along with a lack of chin (see Astérix in Britain for example). :)
I was commenting about it just yesterday in regards to certain History Channel documentary on Alexander the Great, in which the actor had that stereotypical British feature, making the film somewhat unreal for that reason alone.
However I once spotted an Egyptian with that feature.
Both LT and LB stand in good agreement with the israeli type; Israelis with mideast origin have more elongated head aspect ratio. Israelis with north-africa-spain origins have more round head aspect ratio.
37 comments:
Sveiki,
LT -Israel{Turkey}
RT -Hungary{west Slavic}
LB -Portugal{Italy}
RB -Austria...
ok, once again I wont take a glance to what others said, before I finnished my post :P
First I could say is, that I find it harder than the first 4. ;)
Well, overall impresson:
BOth right ones apear to be nothern half of Europe.
BOth left ones apear to be southern half of Europe.
TL: Cant come up with something.
I would say, something around the mediteranian sea.
TR: German (Bavarian, Austrian)
BL: French
BR: English or Scandinavian
In latin script writing order: (1) North African (not sure, could be some sort of Latin American too), (2) Swedish, Polish or otherwise NE European, (3) undefined southern European (Italian maybe?) and (4) undefined NW European (German?).
Fun!
Jan 13th post, clockwise from top left:
Turkey, Germany, Portugal, Croatia
Jan 11th post, clockwise from top left:
Russia, Spain, Holland, Italy.
If I am not mistaken, there is a "system" to this one, so I used it. Even if I got the idea right, the sequence may be off in couple of places.
TL=Israel/Lebanon/East Med
TR=Hungarian/Central Europe
BL=Egypt/North Africa
BR=German/Dutch/English
LT:Thin upper lip and hanging lower lip and kind of a fleshy nose. Middle Eastern.
RT: South Slav
BL: Thin lipps, Hellenistic/Roman area.
BR: Wavy lipps, no idea could be anything.
TL : Turkish
TR : Czech-Polish
BL : Portuguese (or South Italian)
BR : Austrian-Slovene
TL: Italian
TR: Czech
BL: Greek or Turkish
BR: Dutch
Same faces as before, but with different facial expressions.
Bah!
If i must stick to the game, I know that the the:
TL is not European looking.
The rest were more or less conceived with in vitro fertilization given the soulless, glazed tuatacilook in their eyes.
right top=Croatian-Slovenian
right bottom=Deutsch
left top=Portuguese
left bottom=French
Yes, these do look like the same faces switched.
Top Left: Looks West Mediterranean
Top Right: Looks Alpine Slavic
Bottom Left: Looks East Mediterranean
Bottom Right: Still looks Germanic to me
My first impression is that they are four composites of the same people with different percentages of each of the originals.
No idea the two on the left.
Top right, Russian.
Bottom right, English.
But maybe it is just the gaze.
"My first impression is that they are four composites of the same people with different percentages of each of the originals."
In a way, they are ;)
1. Humans have a tiny genepool compared to other species and went through a very thin bottleneck.
2. The genepool outside of Africa is even thinner.
3. Europeans suposedly, share more genetical material than for example Chinese. And China is a single nation.
LT -French
RT -Slovene
LB -Portugal
RB -Irish
(from first look, no peeping on others' comments)
TL - Arab (surely not from the European mainland)
TR - Irish of English
BL - Portuguese
BR - German
When are the answers coming? This is great fun. Actually, now that I read the others' comments and notice the colours of their shirts, I think top left is Arab. These are composites of football teams, right?
These are composites of football teams, right?
Pssssht!
Actually, now that I read the others' comments and notice the colours of their shirts, I think top left is Arab.
Or Brazilian?
TL: Iberian, but I think could pass as dark phenotyped West European.
TR: Slavic or Balkan
BL: Greek, has some Near East elements
BR: German/Austrian, slight East Euro element
The problem is that static pictures are deceiving.
Even worse I find the hairline and the fuzzy hair of these composites confusing at times.
The pictures have different background colors, etc.
So, it's really half guesswork.
I wouldn't be too suprised if they were all Nigerians.
Great! I didn't get a single one right! But bottom right is quite surprising, I could have sworn that guy was Dutch.
Same here for the Hungarian (the others I got quite right). I have the archetype of the Hungarian man as short, alpinoid, large nosed pipe-smoker guy... but seems I was focusing in some particular variant and not the average.
One thing I've learned in this exercise is that the Nordoid typology has a quite marked penetration in the Danubian basin, as both the Hungarian and the Rumanian were the hardest to guess to me. In both cases I pointed further north, though the similitude between the Polish and the Rumanian is striking - what excuses my earlier error.
Well, I did say that the TL was not European looking.
As for the Hungarian I thought he looked somewhat Gernmanic although I didn't say so.
I have met very few Hungarians personally however from what I have seen I agree that Hungary is a possible option for the BR face.
Well, the bottom right doesn't look like any Hungarian I have ever met, but he does look a bit like a mixture between Hungarians/ middle-S/E Europeans and Austrians. Which may just mean that these composites achieve more of a homogenization than is present in actual life.
Any thought of presenting these facial averages in a more specific way?
In some countries, there seem to be regional differences in facial "looks" and haplogroupings.
I am wondering if you can see that in these pictures.
For instance, what is the facial difference between a Scot from an R1b vs. R1a dominated region? What is the average facial difference between a Northern and Southern Greek or a Northwestern or Northeastern Greek?
Interestingly enough, there seems to be a significant facial difference from a Spaniard and a Portuguese. Is it possible to further resolve the facial differences in Spaniards? (Euskaran speaker vs Spanish, for instance.)
I realize this might be getting into dangerous territory, but still fascinating.
I am wondering if you can see that in these pictures.
I presume that if you make regionalized blends you should see some of them. But as mentioned by Ebizur, the averaged face does not need to be the same as the most common type(s) of face. It's just a forced composite.
It may give some idea but that's about it.
Also I recall a composite exercis by Dienekes some time ago, where he compared north and south Italians of three professional groups (with public profile): soccer players (males), fashion models (females) and politicians (males). The most curious thing was that in spite of some N/S differences the composites looked more alike by profession than by any other measure. Footballers and politicians looked like two totally different populations in fact (not counting some expected variants like age and use of glasses). Italian footballers had long faces while politicians had round faces, making a very clear difference along not ethnic or geographic lines but professional ones. Of course models also looked much like the same unreal girl all the time as well.
As a soccer player, with the exception of a few positions, it is advantageous to be at least around 180cm tall (taller for the goalie and center defense). My guess is that if you take that as a criterion, especially in mid-to-southern Italy, you are already taking quite a limited selection of the general population - perhaps with more northern or Croatian background, for example.
So, to further comment on the feasibility and consequences of averaging over an entire country - consider Germany. If you ever had the opportunity to visit it, you'll have notice that Germans in Schleswig-Holstein look awfully like Danes, those in the extreme NW like Dutch, those in the Southern Rhineland and Baden-Wuertemberg like the adjacent Alsatian/French and Swiss, and so on. Which is understandable, but also seems to make it futile to try to derive one type over more than a specific region.
Below are some random examples for your amusement(note that in the group pictures, not all people are of regional descent, nor even ethnically German). You may want to stretch the pop-up window for easier reading and copying and pasting.
NW Germany (Netherlands - Frisia - Northern Lower Saxony)
=========================================================
http://www.ejo.de/Dateien/090920_ejo_Vorstand.jpg
http://www.robben-tuppek.de/elements/photos/team-zoom.jpg
SW Germany (Baden-Wuertemberg)
==============================
http://ais.badische-zeitung.de/piece/00/56/bc/7b/5684347-w-600.jpg
http://ais.badische-zeitung.de/piece/00/f9/1f/bd/16326589.jpg
http://www.beratung-pf.de/uploads/pics/IMG_0140_photo_commander_500_300.jpg
http://www.is.uni-freiburg.de/aktuelles/data/furst.JPG/image
http://ais.badische-zeitung.de/piece/00/74/6f/13/7630611.jpg
South-Central East Germany (NE Bavaria - Thuringia - Saxony; I fall into this type)
===================================================================================
Joachim Merkel (Angela's husband): http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Joachim_Sauer.jpg
Michael Ballack: http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kuvr7k2RFf1qzhwcq.jpg
Bernd Schröder (Coach 1. FFC Turbine Potsdam): http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/c/c7/BerndSchr%C3%B6der2008.jpg
http://www.turbine-potsdam.de/graphs/news_0809/090412_tp01_int-tp-sg09-pokal-bernd-schroeder.jpg
http://www.imagebroker.net/images/meet-the-team-dresden-2009.jpg
...and some Slavic features close to the Czech Republic:
http://www.elsterbergerbc.de/bilder/home/img/web%20ebc.jpg
Thanks for putting up some facial averages for Germany. It will be fun to study these.
Yes, Germany and France obviously have quite obvious regional differences with some people still knowing of their native region.
Again, thanks for taking the time to put up these averages. (I have a number of French and German friends and it will be fun to try to figure out into which group they might fit.)
And, as noted above, it's some of the unusual features of a population that make it so interesting. The big noses, stick out ears, close set eyes and over bites. Somehow, we still manage to be somewhat attractive in spite of these idiosyncrasies.
Just to clarify: the links I posted are of course not averages - just images I found that come close to my observation of some regional types.
In many countries I find that there are some "typical" features and faces, but in specific regions you'll find huge variations and deviations from the expected "norm." That's what I meant above: real life seems to be able to maintain a significant variety, some of that perhaps ancient features, rather than tending to homogenization.
Last not least, nutrition also plays a huge role. I can even observe in my own family that in past generations (poorer nutrition), skulls seemed more angled at the forehead or less tall, and shorter with a taller, straighter back. Whereas I have an occipital bun a Neanderthal could be proud of - to the extent that in some very new cars, the headrest bothers me... ;)
Thanks eurologist:
I had a good look at your photos.
Given my background, over the years, I've always been curious to observe the subtle differences in people's faces.
So I would agree with you that between these four regions, Northern Germany, Southwest Germany, Southeast Germany and close to the Czech border, there is a significant difference in hair color and facial appearance.
(Even though we have to admit to a small sample size.)
The most obvious difference is the greater degree of blondism in the North. Kinda obvious, hey?
Interestingly, there is subtle but perceptible difference between Southwest Germany and Saxony. I can't quite put my finger on it.
Most amusing to me were how similar some of Southwest German pictures appear to be similar to people from the British Isles. (Medium to dark brown straight hair sometimes in combination with blue eyes, slight upper body, tall, long legged, narrow nose bridge and long neck.
Oddly enough, I've also observed this particular look in the mountains of Northern Greece, although the blue eye brown hair thing is less common.
(I'm Canadian, Scottish by origin.)
I see a lot of red haired Germans here in San Francisco. Red hair is also quite common in Scotland. I didn't see much red hair in your pictures, but I was wondering where in Germany that is most prevalent?
I agree with you about nutrition. My husband was born in Philadelphia, but his parents were born in Greece. They grew up during the war and Greek civil war. My husband is 204cm in height, while his father and uncle are about 183 cms. The main difference in height comes from longer legs.
Finally, I have been to Germany . . . mostly Freiburg, Heidelburg and Munich. Something that really captivates me about that area is the skill of the stone masons. There is also great stone building ability in Greece, by the way. I think you would be quite captivated if you every travelled to the Zagoria.
Again, thank you for posting the pictures. It was most generous of you.
Interestingly, there is subtle but perceptible difference between Southwest Germany and Saxony. I can't quite put my finger on it.
Yes, there is some type in Saxony/Thuringia that does not exist elsewhere quite like that in Germany, nor in neighboring Poland or the Czech Republic. This is perhaps at the ~10% level (the remainder look more like the adjacent regions, and quite close to the German "Franks").
Remember, though, that modern-day "Saxony" has absolutely nothing to do with Saxons (it is just named that way, for weird reasons).
Some of the characteristics I find, which may or may not be meaningful:
- straight but unruly hair that is quite wavy or curly when long
- very dark brown to almost black hair as adult (even if quite blond or straw blond as child)
- higher occurrence of brown eyes
- relatively dark skin both with and without sun exposure; quite dark skin (for the latitude) with sun exposure
- tame, kind, friendly, jovial, sometimes chubby-looking face with deeply marked diamond-shaped creases around the mouth
- quite small face (small area between lips and eyes compared to total frontal area)
- smallish nose with relatively broad base and broad lower portion
- sometimes quite full lips
A large fraction of people that come from this region and look like the above and that I either know or know about seem to have a predisposition for:
- painting and drawing
- music (absolute hearing and playing instruments/ singing)
- education/ teaching/ pedagogy
- leading or consoling individuals/ groups
- entrepreneurship
- detail-oriented handicrafts and science
- process versus result orientation
- obsession with information and connections/associations
Couple of other characteristics I forgot:
- above-average width between eyes
- above-average strength
Hi eurologist,
Just reflecting on your comments.
I had another look at the Bernd Schröder picture, since perhaps he fits some of the characteristics that you are describing.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/
wikipedia/de/c/c7/
BerndSchr%C3%B6der2008.jpg
Since I'm Scottish by origin, I decided to run his picture against one of Gordon Brown who I think has an archtypically Scottish face.
http://zambianchronicle.com/
wp-content/uploads/2009/10/
Gordon-Brown.jpg
The eyes are quite similar, as is the chin.
It's the nose that is so different. And the distance between the top of the mouth and the bottom of the nose.
I've noticed that many people from the British Isles have a longer distance between the top of the mouth and the bottom of the nose.
What does seem to be quite evident is that, wherever we are from, we seem to have very finely attuned powers of observation to discriminate against nearby, but different, ethnic groups.
The Irish, Scottish and English seem to spend a lot of time studying the extremely subtle differences between themselves.
My husband's village in Greece is 50 miles from the Albanian border. Everyone there swears that they can see a difference between Albanians and Greeks, even though I cannot pick this out.
All this fine tuned observation seems to be rather amusing to a Canadian or American, although, to be honest, we do it here too.
Best you you,
marnie
I've noticed that many people from the British Isles have a longer distance between the top of the mouth and the bottom of the nose.
That's pretty much the archetypal caricature of the English people, along with a lack of chin (see Astérix in Britain for example). :)
I was commenting about it just yesterday in regards to certain History Channel documentary on Alexander the Great, in which the actor had that stereotypical British feature, making the film somewhat unreal for that reason alone.
However I once spotted an Egyptian with that feature.
Believe me, the look of Hungarians depend on the regions of Hungary
Both LT and LB stand in good agreement with the israeli type; Israelis with mideast origin have more elongated head aspect ratio. Israelis with north-africa-spain origins have more round head aspect ratio.
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