September 28, 2009

Y chromosomes of Teleuts

The arrival of R1b in the east remains a mystery. The few prehistoric samples that have been examined did not belong to it, but rather exclusively to R1a1. While some folks (e.g. Spencer Wells) speak about the arrival of R1b in Europe from Central Asia, I consider this almost certainly false, for a very simple reason: there is absolutely no reason why R1b would head stubbornly west and not east. The complete absence of R1b in East Asia, and its near-complete absence in India, makes a long-term presence of it in Central Asia unbelievable.

Genetika. 2009 Aug;45(8):1132-42.

[Comparative characteristics of the gene pool of Teleuts inferred from Y-chromosomal marker data]

[Article in Russian]

[No authors listed]

The gene pool structure of Teleuts was examined and Y-chromosomal haplogroups composition and frequencies were determined. In the gene pool of Teleuts, five haplogroups, C3xM77, N3a, R1b*, R1b3, and R1a1, were identified. Evaluation of the genetic differentiation of the samples examined using analysis of molecular variance (AMOVA) with two marker systems (frequencies of haplogroups and Y-chromosomal microsatellite haplotypes) showed that Bachat Teleuts were equally distant from Southern and Northern Altaians. In Siberian populations, the frequencies and molecular phylogeny of the YSTR haplotypes within Y-chromosomal haplogroup R1a1 were examined. It was demonstrated that Teleuts and Southern Altaians had very close and overlapping profiles of R1a1 haplotypes. Population cluster analysis of the R1a1 YSTR haplotypes showed that Teleuts and Southern Altaians were closer to one another than to all remaining Siberian ethnic groups. Phylogenetic analysis of N3a haplotypes suggested specificity of Teleut haplotypes and their closeness to those of Tomsk Tatars. Teleuts were characterized by extremely high frequency of haplogroup R1b*, distinguished for highly specific profile of YSTR haplotypes and high haplotype diversity. The results of the comparative analysis suggested that the gene pool of Bachat Teleuts was formed on the basis of at least two heterogeneous genetic components, probably associated with ancient Turkic and Samoyedic ethnic components.

Link

22 comments:

Ponto said...

I don't have any problem with accepting the wogginess of R1b i.e its Asian origins. It is a young haplogroup judging from its spread of SNPs and developed near or the same locales as its confreres in Asia, which are more common in non Caucasoids. Humans may be made in God's image but essentially they are just stupid animals and they do what they do without much rhyme or reason. R1b ventured into Europe from Asia as Asia was already heavily occupied and full of large well defended populations. Europe was relatively unoccupied, heavily forested, had fertile soils and congenial climates. Who in their right mind would go to Siberia, India, the deserts of Araby or Iran? Think of Europe's history. How many invasions has it endured from the East? India had its famous Aryan invasion, and the later Muslim push. China its Mongolians, Huns, Manchus - mostly minor players. Europe experienced it all, even Jews and Gypsies. How many Jews and Gypsies went East? Hardly any, most got thoroughly assimilated. In Europe there are still Jews and Gypsies, despite the efforts of the Final Solution. Look at what is happening in Europe now with many Africans and Asians illegally migrating there.

In other words R1b carrying men did the same as the Etruscans, Phoenicians, Jews and Gypsies after them. Go West Young Men was their motto.

Aaron said...

"While some folks (e.g. Spencer Wells) speak about the arrival of R1b in Europe from Central Asia, I consider this almost certainly false, for a very simple reason: there is absolutely no reason why R1b would head stubbornly west and not east. The complete absence of R1b in East Asia, and its near-complete absence in India." -- India is not the center of the universe my friend. Anyway you look at it, R1, and both their major male descendants came from out east.

Crimson Guard said...

R1a has its origin in southeastern Europe/Balkans perhaps according to some research. R1b perhaps Asia Minor or near around there maybe then. R1b getting to West Africa, in places like Nigeria thats way out west alright and some trek for no apparent reason. I think a near Eastern origin is probably more feasible rather than from outve Central Asia-- which I dont think was very hospitable at any point in (pre)history.

Andrew Lancaster said...

Commenters so far seem to be misunderstanding. The question Dienekes is raising, I think, is not whether R1b had Asian origins, it is "how far east". Presumably he is considering he Middle East more likely than Central Asia? On the other hand I think it is hard to exclude areas as far east as some parts of Central Asia. If we look at other genetic markers such as R1a, and indeed if we look at historical records, we know that large parts of Northern Central Asia had their genetic make-up "Easternized" in recent millennia, leaving big holes in the spread of Indo European languages, and R1a haplotypes. Could R1b have been more common in some of these areas?

Dienekes said...

The origins of R1b are unlikely to be resolved easily by the study of modern populations. For example, modern Anatolian R1b is a composite of (possibly) prehistoric Anatolian R1b, Balkan R1b, Italian/Western European R1b, and Central Asian R1b. Good luck to anyone trying to squeeze out the (prehistoric) Anatolian R1b component out of all this mess.

Bjorn Witlox said...

The reason that R1b stubbornly headed West and not East could be that a family or just one man decided to head West and not east.

Andrew Lancaster said...

Dienekes, I am not sure if you are aware of the intense nested phylogeny that has been discovered just under M269. It does seem to offer a lot of possibilities for untangling geographical patterns is branching sub sets are found in a clear geographical gradient - which is indeed how it seems so far, with all clades being found in the Middle East and fewer and fewer sub sets as one approaches NW Europe.

Aaron said...

Andrew, the lack of neolithic haplogroups among some of these isolated populations is very revealing. If they came from the middle-east, one would expect some diversity among haplogroups. However, there is not, just evidence of admixture with Siberian groups. There must have been a homeland for these wandering people. Likely east of Ukraine and south of Siberia.

Dienekes said...

with all clades being found in the Middle East

The Middle East has received genetic input from all other regions where R1b is common, so I don't ascribe any particular significance to that.

Dienekes said...

The reason that R1b stubbornly headed West and not East could be that a family or just one man decided to head West and not east.

If that was the case, we wouldn't be able to detect it from the study of modern populations, since phylogeography requires that some of his kin stayed behind (so that we can study them today).

Gioiello said...

I think that Dienekes is right about the Anatolian (and I would say all Middle Eastern) R1bs: they arrived there from everywhere. But I think having put the question many times in the past: I was always waiting that Vizachero finds in his Middle Eastern samples: R/L23-/L150+. Italy has, with all its ancestors and descendants. It is clear, also after the study of Argiedude, that Middle East hasn’t R/L23-, so diffused among Jews, but also Italians (and Greeks, but the high percentage was due to a very small number of tested persons, and now is emerging more and more the high percentage of Greeks who have an Italian (or Venetian) extraction). Of course there has been a bidirectional gene flow between Italy and Greece, from almost 10,000 years ,and as for Anatolia it is difficult to discern who is from where.

Vincent said...

If that was the case, we wouldn't be able to detect it from the study of modern populations, since phylogeography requires that some of his kin stayed behind (so that we can study them today).
I don't know where you got this notion, but it is not true. Phylogeography is a discipline, not a set of "requirements". It might be easier if people were permanently and immutably immobile, but it certainly is not necessary.

Just as we can allow for the genes to mutate over time, we can allow for the genes to move over time. Even up to and including the complete extinction of the source population in their original home.

In fact, I'm tempted to argue that the worst phylogeographic analysis has been done by people who act as if such "pure", immutable, immobile populations actually exist.

VV

Gioiello said...

Once I said to Vizachero that, if he would have had some smattering of classics, he should have known the fable of the wolf and the lamb. Now I would advise him to read the fable of the fox and the grapes.

Maju said...

I'd say that African R1b (so far just R1b* mostly, specially at Sudan and towards lake Chad), as well as Central Asian R1b (mostly R1b1b1, a distinct subclade), do suggest West Asia being at the origin of this lineage.

I presume that the African R1b* will eventually be resolved into some unique sublineage with origins at the Nile probably. Besides we have other four sublineages: one found in mostly in Sardinia, another in Lebanon, another in Central Asia and then R1b1b2, the largest one by far, in West Asia and Europe. So the center of diversity seems to be near the Mediterranean, maybe at Anatolia or maybe elsewhere (though I don't think the Balcans look a particularly good candidate on first sight, as they have basically a mix of Anatolian and Western lineages, at low apportions).

Someone should do a good research on this issue, tracing the phylogeny under M343 and the somewhat unreliable P25. Just writing down "R1b", or even worse: P(xR1a) as often happens, is not helping at all.

Andrew Lancaster said...

Aaron, could you clarify what you mean by the following words:

"neolithic haplogroups". Which ones are these?

"these isolated populations". Which ones are do you mean?

"diversity among haplogroups". You say there is none? Really? What do you mean by that (relative to what?), and how should we use the word "among" in a sentence like this ("within haplogroups" or "of haplogroups")?

"evidence of admixture with Siberian groups". Which evidence are you referring to?

"these wandering people" Which wandering people?

Aaron said...

Andrew, it's evident that the R1b, and likely R1a moved north to south (in relative terms, though there was likely movement back adn forth) when dealing with the southern hemisphere. The lack of haplogroups such as J, G, E (not defining specifics here) which is spread out of the fertile crescent, but absent in the northern regions among some groups like Bashkirs and now Teleuts is indicative that the origins of R1 and its descendants is in and around Kazakhstan or possibly a little further south and pre-dates expansion from the Near/Middle-East.
If one argued a Near-Eastern origin of R1b, one cannot explain the lack of haplogroups E, G, J among the Teleut population.

Vincent said...

If one argued a Near-Eastern origin of R1b, one cannot explain the lack of haplogroups E, G, J among the Teleut population.

I'm afraid that doesn't follow.

Without access to the paper, it's hard to say much about the Teleuts specifically but it is important to keep in mind that there are two different things being discussed in this thread.

One is the ultimate origin of R1b, and another is an explanation for the "extremely high frequency of haplogroup R1b*, distinguished for highly specific profile of YSTR haplotypes and high haplotype diversity."

With R1b being a fairly old and large group (TMRCA around 16 kya) and the Teleuts being a tiny (i.e. possibly subject to extreme founder effects) Turkic-speaking (i.e. possibly subject to important demographic influences in the last 1,000 to 2,000 years), I would think it should be obvious that the "origin" of R1b may be completely irrelevant to the matter of Teleut genetic makeup.

VV

Ebizur said...

The so-called R1b* in the recent paper by Kharkov et alii is simply R1b1-P25(xR1b1b2-M269), and it has been found in 11/35 (31.4%) of the Teleut sample. The authors have remarked that "[t]he closest to
Teleut haplotypes are those of Hazaras from Pakistan," which suggests that these Teleut individuals actually should belong to haplogroup R1b1b1-M73, as this is the form of haplogroup R1b that is common among the Hazaras in Pakistan.

Maju said...

The so-called R1b* in the recent paper by Kharkov et alii is simply R1b1-P25(xR1b1b2-M269), and it has been found in 11/35 (31.4%) of the Teleut sample. The authors have remarked that "[t]he closest to
Teleut haplotypes are those of Hazaras from Pakistan," which suggests that these Teleut individuals actually should belong to haplogroup R1b1b1-M73, as this is the form of haplogroup R1b that is common among the Hazaras in Pakistan
.

Very much clarifying, thanks. It's the Uyghur haplogroup then.

Vincent said...

It's the Uyghur haplogroup then.
Why use such a vague and inaccurate label? What's wrong with just calling it R-M73? Lots of people who are not Uyghur are R-M73, and lots of Uyghur are not R-M73.

VV

Andrew Lancaster said...

Aaron:

Why is it "evident that the R1b, and likely R1a moved north to south"? And what does the "southern hemisphere" have to do with any of this discussion.

I can agree that you could argue that a lack of haplogroups such as J, G, E in northern groups like Bashkirs and now Teleuts DOES show that the Bashkirs and Teleuts are not only geographically, but also genetically far from the Middle East, which is of course no surprise.

But honestly our understanding of the genetics of the Middle East seems to be shaken by every new study. There seem to be big differences between regions.

There is no technical reason why one haplogroup on its own can not find its way from a populous region like the Middle East to a distant and less populous region like Central Asia. Any route is possible.

Please note that I am not really taking a strong position on where R1b originated, although I do think it most likely entered Europe from the Middle East.

Maju said...

Why use such a vague and inaccurate label? -

Maybe because it's best known that way and also because in a previous discussion on Afanasevo and Indoeuropeans it was argued that Altaians (or was that fossil Altaians?) have lots of R1a but lack of or low R1b. As Teleuts are Altaians, it is relevant in that specific sense.