tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post8903601177995071213..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Iberian Neolithic farmer DNA Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-9581897024392826572013-12-10T23:14:32.845+02:002013-12-10T23:14:32.845+02:00Anders, you seem to be confused, as usual.Anders, you seem to be confused, as usual.Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-71617497567423727362013-12-10T12:02:11.555+02:002013-12-10T12:02:11.555+02:00Davidski. You are mistaken. Ajv70 is no way near L...Davidski. You are mistaken. Ajv70 is no way near Lithuanians. Ajv52 neither but shows admixture that appears to be Baltic like. Ire8 doesnt look like the Lithuanians either.Anders Pålsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13444056522800105747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-87140955049545967502013-12-09T15:08:19.159+02:002013-12-09T15:08:19.159+02:00Davidski,
I have laid out a clear and clean archa...Davidski,<br /><br />I have laid out a clear and clean archaeological consensus review, bolstered by attested climatic and geographical data. All you have is polemics.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-13598162633709877272013-12-09T15:01:39.769+02:002013-12-09T15:01:39.769+02:00This comment has been removed by the author.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-80536808075261185362013-12-09T03:10:20.725+02:002013-12-09T03:10:20.725+02:00Yes, aha, close cousins of Bedouins and Saudi Arab...Yes, aha, close cousins of Bedouins and Saudi Arabians were hunter-gatherers in Southern Europe, and over the hill there lived another population of hunter-gatherers, closely related to modern Lithuanians.<br /><br />Highly unlikely. But I guess it takes a while for things to sink it for some people.Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-73209667310703296882013-12-07T08:11:53.276+02:002013-12-07T08:11:53.276+02:00I suspect a geographic influence of some kind.
Th...<i>I suspect a geographic influence of some kind.</i><br /><br />The Alps and the Carpathians. During the ice age, even outside LGM, the narrow passage south of the Alps by Nice/ San Remo would have been unattractive and very difficult to pass. The closeness to the massive ice sheets (~20km) would have meant night time temperatures close to freezing throughout the summer - thus an isolated pocket of tundra climate with few plants and even fewer animals and probably no fish in the melt-water streams. Not a place many people would have voluntarily tried to cross, with a much more pleasant climate further away to both sides.<br /><br />Likewise, the gap between the Alps and the Carpathians is somewhat narrow, and there is no indication of settlement around LGM in the vicinity, except a small pocket in Bohemia/ Moravia. At any rate, the Balkans had a relatively mild and stable periglacial climate, and expansion after LGM evidently was from there moving northeast (Epi-Gravettian), while the Magdalenian spread from Franco-Cantabria north and east. Two different populations, and when counted from the start of the Gravettian, separated by 20,000 years (with another 10,000 years of partial isolation before then).eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-40053390529902702122013-12-06T19:12:32.513+02:002013-12-06T19:12:32.513+02:00"Certainly there is evidence that the predece..."Certainly there is evidence that the predecessors, the Neanderthals were split into a Northern Group and a Southern group who lived beside each other for many thousands of years. I suspect a geographic influence of some kind. Maybe different kinds of game."<br /><br />I don't have an opinion on whether there were multiple populations but if there were then it seems likely to me that the split would follow the boundaries of different ecozones e.g.<br />- atlantic coastal<br />- mediterranean coastal<br />- central inland<br />- northern inland<br /><br />Another thought is an original common population separated into different drifting pockets by the ice and then re-expanding after the ice retreated.<br />Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-28516745987464748622013-12-06T09:57:33.515+02:002013-12-06T09:57:33.515+02:00If the population changes due to evolution, then a...If the population changes due to evolution, then after a while it's going to have a different composition in terms of its ancestral components. I've been playing with the idea, too, that part of the North-Europeanisation of the Sardinian-like early farmers in more northerly parts of Europe may be due to selective pressures.<br /><br />Btw I'm still waiting for that iron age Bulgarian to be published. He has been announced almost a year ago now, and I've never seen any details.^^Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-71053039224782079792013-12-06T09:41:18.485+02:002013-12-06T09:41:18.485+02:00The ancestral components in the admixture analyses...The ancestral components in the admixture analyses are based on whole complexes of alleles, not on single traits, some of which may happen to be absent in a given individual. And thus at least for admixture analyses a sample size of 5 is already quite reasonable. At least this was the minimum size in the Dodecad Ancestry project. And upon inspection of the individual variation within the samples it became evident that they don't vary wildly. Whereas in studies of the y-chromosome or mt-DNA even a sample size of 50 isn't quite satisfying.Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-85775126848053146302013-12-06T03:34:52.259+02:002013-12-06T03:34:52.259+02:00Andrew, you're right, at least the production ...Andrew, you're right, at least the production of arsenical bronze started quite early in SE-Europe. But Ötzi wasn't from SE-Europe. I think that's often a problem of geneticists who are not very familiar with archeological concepts: They mistake the relative chronological divisions for absolute ones. But Ötzi lived more than a millennium earlier than that Iberian farmer. If he was "bronze age" by absolute standards then the Iberian was even more so. In reality neither of them was.Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-50222244988864720962013-12-06T01:51:10.840+02:002013-12-06T01:51:10.840+02:00Eurologist,
I don't know what you think you&#...Eurologist,<br /><br />I don't know what you think you're seeing on that bar graph, but what I'm seeing is that Sardinians derive most of their ancestry from the same Near Eastern light blue clade as the (southern?) Bedouins.<br /><br />This light blue clade is the clade of the Sardinian-like Gok4 and Oetzi, and probably also the Portalon individual. It entered Europe from the Mediterranean during the Neolithic, and its source was probably the western part of the Fertile Crescent.Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-40547326942003541022013-12-05T22:42:22.763+02:002013-12-05T22:42:22.763+02:00" Rather, it derives from the same clade as m..." Rather, it derives from the same clade as modern Bedouin DNA, minus the African admixture."<br /><br />So... That would be the Bedouin people who are mostly in North Africa? The Southern Mediterranean. Just the other side of the water from Gibralter? Or perhaps a skip across the water from Southern Italy?<br /><br />"So where did these farmers come from? Obviously the Fertile Crescent."<br /><br />Huh? They come just the other side of the Mediterranean therefore they must have travelled inland via the Fertile Crescent? Without leaving a genetic trail? This is a simpler explanation?<br /><br />"Why didn't they come from the Balkans or Iberia? Because two distinct Eurasian clades of hunter-gatherers didn't live in Europe side by side for thousands of years."<br /><br />You know this how? Certainly there is evidence that the predecessors, the Neanderthals were split into a Northern Group and a Southern group who lived beside each other for many thousands of years. I suspect a geographic influence of some kind. Maybe different kinds of game.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11000684388615334278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-68049728787366711682013-12-05T09:39:03.738+02:002013-12-05T09:39:03.738+02:00Why didn't they come from the Balkans or Iberi...<i>Why didn't they come from the Balkans or Iberia? Because two distinct Eurasian clades of hunter-gatherers <b>didn't</b> live in Europe side by side for thousands of years.</i><br /><br />Davidski,<br /><br />What is your hypothesis based on? Archaeology tells us exactly the opposite (excluding Iberia, of course) for the period between LGM and the Neolithic.<br /><br /><i>As we see on this graph. http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/2810/hhx4.png</i><br /><br />Kurti,<br /><br />In that image, the light blue component encompasses everything from "Gedrosia", W Asia, SW Asia, and the northern Mediterranean. That's not usefully split up due to the inclusion of all the irrelevant eastern groups, at that level of K. It also tells me that the French are most closely related to Uralic people. All it really says is that West Eurasians <i>in this calculation</i> first split into a northern and a southern group. That people mostly align with latitude, especially if they can easily get there, we have known for decades. It doesn't tell us much about ancestral components. What if that vast light blue is a remnant of the Aurignacian population wave and ubiquitous contact since, while the dark blue is a remnant of the Gravettian wave and ubiquitous similar-latitude contact since? Where does a special Neolithic component even enter in this?<br /><br />It's beyond me why anyone would think that just pre-Neolithic the population in, say, Thrace would be completely different from that in NW Anatolia, when they are just a few days walking distance away but not separated by geography nor climate. And the Aegean and W Anatolia shared the same fishing culture. But no, their autosomal DNA was as different as that of Uralic or Orcadian folks and those in the Levant, many thousands of kilometers and ten climate zones separated...eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-29326554188640736712013-12-05T06:28:54.503+02:002013-12-05T06:28:54.503+02:00I think the Meditreaen clusters or whatever they a...I think the Meditreaen clusters or whatever they are In autosomal DNA. Most likely came from the Near eastern farmers that spread and conquered(I think) most of Europe. I think most had very similar ancestry. There is a lot of evidence of common ancestry with Neolithic farmers in Ancient DNA.<br /><br />I really doubt there were completely different hunter gatherers in different areas of Europe. The specifically European clusters in autosomal DNA which are dominate in hunter gatherer samples there is so far. I think descends from a early migration of early Caucasians from the Near east into Europe probably over 30,000 years ago. Probably also connected with mtDNA U5, U4, U2e(maybe others) and Y DNA I(maybe others). These hunter gatherers in Europe probably stayed pretty unmixed for 10,000's of years. <br /><br />This sounds way to simple to me. Why would the hunter gatherers be so unmixed, Why couldn't there have been migrations from Asia into Europe that made major effects. Why would everyone within Europe be basically the same genetically. European hunter gatherers would have mixed with east Asian hunter gatherers which is proven with Ancient DNA. But I think Europe was really their center. It is pretty similar with native Americans. The Cherokee have the same ancient ancestry as the Inca. Native Americans stayed unmixed from the arrival over 20,000 years ago until European colonization began in the 1500's. <br /><br /><br />It is kind of the same today in Europe. Even though Europe is apart of Asia everyone within Europe has similar ancestry which is the hunter gatherer ancestry. ancestry.<br /><br />I do think it is probably a little more complicated than I said. The hunter gatherers of Europe were not pure U(U5, U4, and U2e) like some assume. There is some for sure non U from Palaeolithic and Mesolithic European samples. There are possibly RO's, HV's, and H's. If you go by the original report's H is the most popular haplogroup so far from Iberian hunter gatherer's. I definitely think mtDNA history in pre Neolithic Europe is a lot more complicated than U5, U2e, and U4.<br /><br />La Brana's people may have been a mix of migrating hunter gatherers from central Europe and mixed with some farmer's travelling through the Meditreaen sea. Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-81651224910221289402013-12-04T20:49:30.363+02:002013-12-04T20:49:30.363+02:00"there isn't any evidence speaking for a ..."there isn't any evidence speaking for a Mesolithic-Neolithic continuity. But allot of evidences speaking against it."<br /><br />There isn't? I thought the pattern so far pointed at an initial farmer expansion followed by a rebound from the locals so a lot of continuity but with a large blip in the middle?<br />Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-79265595058751399812013-12-04T19:23:37.434+02:002013-12-04T19:23:37.434+02:00@Davidski
you seem to be right with your assumpt...@Davidski <br /><br />you seem to be right with your assumption.<br /><br />The original farmer component appears like <br /><br />Southwest Asian without East African admixture<br /><br />and Mediterranean without H&G admixture.<br /><br />As we see on this graph. http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/2810/hhx4.png<br /><br />The "Middle Eastern" component is very likely the original farmer component.<br /><br />@Eurologist<br />yes there isn't any Mesolithic data from Bulgaria or Italy which could be used as evidence but than there isn't any evidence speaking for a Mesolithic-Neolithic continuity. But allot of evidences speaking against it. Kurtihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00818803833239507313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-52863875168228598392013-12-04T16:55:43.935+02:002013-12-04T16:55:43.935+02:00How's this for Occams Razor?
The Neolithic fa...How's this for Occams Razor?<br /><br />The Neolithic farming package comes from the Fertile Crescent in the Near East.<br /><br />All Neolithic farmer DNA tested to date doesn't have much in common with European hunter-gatherer DNA. Rather, it derives from the same clade as modern Bedouin DNA, minus the African admixture.<br /><br />So where did these farmers come from? Obviously the Fertile Crescent.<br /><br />Why didn't they come from the Balkans or Iberia? Because two distinct Eurasian clades of hunter-gatherers didn't live in Europe side by side for thousands of years.Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-41161773499132588402013-12-04T12:51:59.963+02:002013-12-04T12:51:59.963+02:00Kurt and Andrew,
Iberia is not the Mediterranean....Kurt and Andrew,<br /><br />Iberia is not the Mediterranean.<br /><br />From the perspective of Mesolithic cultural and population continuity, the main question is whether the first farmers are actually different from the Mesolithic population of Italy, Greece, the Balkans, and beyond - for which I have so far seen zero evidence.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-50622717628934709582013-12-04T12:24:43.856+02:002013-12-04T12:24:43.856+02:00@andrew
agreed. Also the point that these neolit...@andrew <br /><br />agreed. Also the point that these neolithic individuals belonged predominantly to the yDNA G (with some individuals belonging to E1b and I) makes a direct migration out of Africa almost impossible.<br /><br />But somehow this fact is overseen be some people.Kurtihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00818803833239507313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-52950655522609112652013-12-04T10:06:41.884+02:002013-12-04T10:06:41.884+02:00IMO these ARE the mesolithic locals (southern vari...IMO these ARE the mesolithic locals (southern variety). <br /><br />All the neolithic folk we have found in Southern Europe (except La Brana) have a particular southern autosomal type component. Therefore it obvious must come from somewhere else! How does this make sense? It does not make sense. And it has not been shown convincingly by the science. <br /><br />All we have are these cyclical arguments. We know farmers came from the Near East therefore this must be a Near Eastern component. Oh wow we see this near eastern component all over therefore there must have been huge population replacement of farmers from the Near East. It is a self fulfilling prophecy. Similar stuff has ocurred with allocating samples to "hunter-gatherer" or "farmer".<br /><br />We know folk were living around the Mediterranean from very early on. The archaeology says this. What happened to them? Even neanderthals had a north/south population split. These farmers don't match the Near East populations we know about. They do not have similar haplogroup distributions to the near East, and there was already weak evidence that the mesolithic southern european haplogroups (Italy, Spain, Portugal) were different from the northern mesolithic haplogroups. Occams Razor. The simplest explanation is that they are the missing southern European mesolithic locals. Mediterranean people. <br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11000684388615334278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-6542608032946653102013-12-04T01:07:39.795+02:002013-12-04T01:07:39.795+02:00"This guy is a farmer. His great great grandp..."This guy is a farmer. His great great grandparents were probably hunter gatherers living in the next valley over. Their ancestors had probably been bobbing around the Mediterranean since they left Africa."<br /><br />This is surely not the case. If he were, he would have a Mesolithic hunter-gatherer DNA profile and he does not. <br /><br />Thus, this data point is added to so many others that support a "pots are people" hypothesis that farming was conducted by a population that migrated to Europe without much admixture with native populations rather than by cultural diffusion of farming technology to pre-existing residents.<br /><br />Moreover, this study shows that Copper Age-Bronze Age Neolithic farmers in vastly different parts of Europe had similar DNA suggesting a common source for all of them.<br /><br />The folk migration model of the appearance of farming in Central Europe has been widely accepted for several years based on ancient DNA evidence, but there have been strong arguments in the past that the folk migration model wasn't as good of a fit to the advent of farming in Southern Europe (and in particular to Southwestern Europe) as it was to the advent of farming in Central Europe. This data point from Spain tends to disfavor that argument and to favor an argument that by the time that by 5,000-4,000 years ago, farmers all across Europe were predominantly derived from similar or identical source populations with only minimal local variation attributable to the Mesolithic peoples who had previously resided there.<br /><br />It also reinforces the historically documented context that farming was adopted relatively late in Northern Europe which retained its hunting and gathering practices longer than other parts of Europe and hence have modern populations that are close to those Mesolithic peoples.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-83399584770506031202013-12-03T13:06:23.366+02:002013-12-03T13:06:23.366+02:00@Annie Mouse
What you still seem to not understan...@Annie Mouse<br /><br />What you still seem to not understand, is that There wasn't a "South European" native population which was Mediterranean like. This component was not common until the neolithic Even the article itself indicates this.<br /><br />"In contrast, the Neolithic Portalón individual displays little affinity to two Mesolithic samples from the near-by area, La Brana, demonstrating a distinct change in population history between 7,000 and 4,000 years ago for the northern Iberian Peninsula."<br /><br />So how can the farmers be a "South European " source population if the near by mesolithic samples differ?<br /><br />And yes it is not like there was a Berlin wall in Europe but this is exactly the point, it is not like one side of the wall appeared more North European like while the other side South European BUT it is that we have all farmers, no matter from which part of Europe (even in Bulgaria), are "Mediterranean" while all the H&G are North European like. <br /><br />This is not only in Spain the case, were we could argue it to be the "geographic" border between both components. But it is the case in Sweden, Germany and many more places. So your argument is invalid.Kurtihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00818803833239507313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-9042453434583074102013-12-03T00:29:51.120+02:002013-12-03T00:29:51.120+02:00I am having trouble understanding the fuss with th...I am having trouble understanding the fuss with this paper. Its interesting, but it is not saying what people seem to be assuming it is saying.<br /><br />This guy is genetically a Southern European type in Spain, a quintessential Southern European country in a major population centre of that area. Yes the range of the Northern Europeans probably stretched to Northern Spain in mesolithic times, but it is unlikely it was a Berlin Wall type arrangement, and who knows where the "border" was anyway? Also this is exactly the time that you would expect the expansion of the Southern European population north with the improving climate. <br /><br />This paper makes NO recent connection to the near East that I can see. There is nothing to suggest that this guy just got off the boat from Turkey. I expect this southern/Mediterranean population had been in the area for many thousands of years. Even Neanderthals had a North/South population split somewhere in northern Spain. This seems to be just a typical guy of the type who had probably lived in the area since the paleolithic. <br /><br />This guy is a farmer. His great great grandparents were probably hunter gatherers living in the next valley over. Their ancestors had probably been bobbing around the Mediterranean since they left Africa. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11000684388615334278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-88441292602845454452013-12-02T21:36:36.099+02:002013-12-02T21:36:36.099+02:00@Simon W
"If he's 4000 years old it'...@Simon W<br /><br />"If he's 4000 years old it's a Bell Beaker farmer or post-Bell Beaker. It's important not to throw all the "neolithic farmers" into one pot. It's a huge temporal and cultural difference to the early farmers who encountered the mesolithic hunter-gatherers."<br /><br />Agreed. My working model of European genetics assumes that there was at least one Mesolithic genetic population (possible a second in Southern Europe exemplified by the Iberian Mesolithic), a first wave Neolithic wave population (LBK and Cardial Pottery which modest differences between the these source populations but more introgression of Mesolithic people in the Cardial Pottery population), a second Neolithic wave population initially in the West (probably associated with Bell Beaker in the West), and a roughly contemporaneous second Neolithic wave population initially in the East (Indo-European associated with Corded Ware) which is more similar to the Western Second Wave than the First Wave. (In addition, there were separate Eastern Mediterranean and Western Mediterranean migration populations from Africa that introgressed pre-Bronze Age collapse via the Levant and Gibraltar respectively exemplified by Y-DNA E).<br /><br />There are modern populations extant in places like Basque Country, Sardinia and Gascony that particularly favor first or second wave Neolithic peoples.<br /><br />"Also it's odd to call Ötzi a bronze age farmer when he actually was chalcolithic."<br /><br />I think that the distinction is somewhat pedantic and that the Chalcolithic-Bronze Age line is quite a bit fuzzier and gradual than the Bronze Age-Iron Age line that is marked by a geographically widespread roughly contemporaneous series of Bronze Age collapse events.<br /><br />"Like with all the ancient autosomal samples, it isn't a huge problem that it's only from one individual, as the autosomal ancestry gets mixed in the process of procreation - quite in contrast to the uniparental markers. Individuals of a single population don't vary hugely between each other, as long as we're not dealing with a recent immigrant."<br /><br />More precisely, a small number of autosomal DNA samples is a good measure of traits that have reached fixation in the studies population, but is not a good measure of traits that were undergoing rapid shifts in frequency due to founder effects and ethnogenesis or due to selective pressures (either due to a new mutation that is expanding, or due to an event like a plague that gives new fitness enhancing value to old mutations).andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-13276082905716998552013-12-02T19:30:07.300+02:002013-12-02T19:30:07.300+02:00Yes I do believe R1a and R1b are most likely Pale...Yes I do believe R1a and R1b are most likely Paleolithic in Europe Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15909257725372070621noreply@blogger.com