tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post8082011830155641282..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Bronze Age war in northern GermanyDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-12729892693621246382016-05-11T12:28:47.299+03:002016-05-11T12:28:47.299+03:00Discussions of the Tollense battle largely ignore ...Discussions of the Tollense battle largely ignore the known demographic makeup of the region prior to 815 AD. Before Charlemagne, as well as long after his death, the region in question was populated exclusively by Slavs. Despite the systematic and genocidal suppression of the Slavic (Serbian/Lusatian) cultural identity, perpetrated by Frankish/German invaders who occupied the region in the centuries following Charlemagne's death, the Slavic character of the region is evident to this day from toponyms (Wiligrad - "Large City" or "White City", Schwerin, pommern, Gnevkow, Sarow, Burow, Neetzow, ...) and from the persistence of the autochthonous Serbian ethnic element in the province. Knowing those facts and interpreting the combatants' genomic similarity to modern-day Poles or Russians as "far-flung origins" violates the Occam's razor. There is nothing "far-flung" about Slavs in Mecklenburg. It is far more parsimonious to interpret the Slavic genomic component in the light of the well documented, continuous, and overwhelming historical Slavic presence in the area. One does not need to go all the way to Russia to find Slavs - many present-day locals directly descend from the Slavic Bodrici (Obotrites), whether they remember it or have been assimilated into the German cultural milieu. Parsimony thus dictates that the Slavic genomic signature represents the local defenders. <br /><br />Furthermore, in the context of the events in question (rather than the current political delineations), placing the battlefield in "northern Germany" is as accurate as calling Priam's Troy "Turkish" or referring to the Serbian Gracanica monastery as "Kosovar." It makes far more sense to designate the battlefield as western Slavic. Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10602415172933272482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-22098959673079204702016-04-03T00:15:20.879+03:002016-04-03T00:15:20.879+03:00" and some were from south like Italy (R1b Ki..." and some were from south like Italy (R1b Kinda?)."<br /><br />Did they actually say the southern people had R1b? Did they mention Y-DNA at all?<br /><br />I thought the labeling was done because of autosomal DNA. That there had been some whos autosomal DNA matches modern Scandinavians. Some, whos autosomal DNA matches modern Poles and some whos autosomal DNA matches modern "southern Europeans" and later it was mentioned as "possibly Italians".<br /><br />What I read about Bell Beaker autosomal DNA from the Bronce Age was that Bronce Age GErman bellbeakers match modern Germans, Dutch, Danish and English people. (not Italians or Spanish) and Bronce Age Corded Ware from Germany match Russians, Balts, Finns and Prussian-Germans (the ones who matched these, apeared like recently admixed people) best.<br /><br />Fantyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07969348276219179258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-34995180364636105652016-04-02T06:18:48.775+03:002016-04-02T06:18:48.775+03:00There are some really nice photos of the artifacts...There are some really nice photos of the artifacts and remains in this blog post. http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2015/07/tollense-battle.html<br /><br />D. B. Lighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05663484917515894917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-18694766271362462982016-04-01T09:05:06.451+03:002016-04-01T09:05:06.451+03:00Olympus Mons,
I was referring to an earlier nitro...<i>Olympus Mons,</i><br /><br />I was referring to an earlier nitrogen isotope study, which concluded that one of apparently two groups of men had most likely had a diet of millet, which does not grow in this region, but was prevalent in the South and Southeast (e.g, just north of the Alps or east of that). Some of the bronze needles found also support such an origin.<br /><br />The region roughly corresponds to part of the larger area in which most researchers assume the Proto-Germanic language coalesced during roughly that time (northern edge of Urnfield culture), culminating with the advent of the Germanic Jastorf culture, there. There are also longstanding, continuous <i>cultural</i> interactions with Scandinavia, but also trade relations with what is now southern Germany and Czech lands, and from there into the Mediterranean region. <br /><br />We know from ancient and modern DNA that the ratio of male haplogroups R1b, I, and R1a in this region, and their general gradient from the Rhine River to the Vistula, has not changed dramatically over at least the past 3,500 years. This battle was around 1,250 BCE and apparently a conflict between a "standing army" made up of professional soldiers of widely mixed origins, and people from the south or southeast (as compared to northern Germany - we will know more precisely after the DNA analysis has been completed) - but in any case 1,000 - 2,000 years past the Bell Beaker and Corded Ware phenomena.<br /><br />As I alluded to before, the ratio of remains from horses to men is small (~1 : 25*) and indicates that, as I have always argued, horses were rare and expensive to maintain, this far north, and as such at most an expression of elite status or used to carry dignitaries or to enable them easier command.<br /><br />* Perhaps much less, given how easy it is to kill horses; also, horses would have been useless in battle in the swampy river valley.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-57844394588744559442016-03-31T21:36:36.637+03:002016-03-31T21:36:36.637+03:00Eurologist,
No. Not Southeast. He says Some were f...Eurologist,<br />No. Not Southeast. He says Some were from East with genome like polish and russian (R1a kinda?) and some were from south like Italy (R1b Kinda?). By Italy I assume the same kind of genome that today cluster Portuguese, Spanish and north Italian?<br />So, We have Bell beaker descendants genome battling Corded ware Genome. It really must have been a full fledge long time grudge o bring all those people into battle.<br />Olympus Monshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08640679631703214884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-34959287093489893302016-03-31T05:09:08.589+03:002016-03-31T05:09:08.589+03:00Nirjhar:
Except that this was a real battle, and ...Nirjhar:<br /><br />Except that this was a real battle, and the other two are mythological.<br />I am never sure if you just make up things as you go along.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10509413340206425808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-69299142681464594872016-03-27T15:24:45.130+03:002016-03-27T15:24:45.130+03:00It was an era of Epic battles ( 1500-1000 BC) , In...It was an era of Epic battles ( 1500-1000 BC) , India (Mahabharata), Greece (Troy) and now this!.Nirjhar007https://www.blogger.com/profile/12880827026479135118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-81314461118091333502016-03-27T11:46:58.200+03:002016-03-27T11:46:58.200+03:00We have discussed this site in the past. For exam...We have discussed this site in the past. For example, I have remarked that as expected, horses (this far north) apparently played little role in these movements and battles.<br /><br />From some materials found, there was prior indication that the intruders came from the south (southeast). It is good to see that finally DNA analyses are applied to these rich finds.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-20159460520584542542016-03-25T21:12:44.726+02:002016-03-25T21:12:44.726+02:00Totally upends the common working narrative of the...Totally upends the common working narrative of the Bronze Age Collapse. <br /><br />This battle could literally precede all hell breaking loose throughout the Mediterranean world. It also could have been entirely political with no other variables.bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.com