tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post6903440610159764118..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Huge study on Y-chromosome variation in Iran (Grugni et al. 2012)Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-14904427007267616572015-06-29T12:39:03.604+03:002015-06-29T12:39:03.604+03:00Hello everyone am here to testify how i got my loa...Hello everyone am here to testify how i got my loan from Mr Akisu. after i applied several times from various loan lenders who claimed to also testify right in this forum,i thought the testimonies where real and i applied but they never gave me loan. I was in need of an urgent loan to start a business and i applied from various loan lenders who promised to help but they never gave me the loan.Until a friend of mine introduce me to Mr Akisu. who promised to help me and indeed he did as he promised without any form of delay.I never thought there are still reliable loan lenders until i met Mr.Akisu,who are indeed helped with the loan and changed my belief.I don't know if you are in any way in need of a genuine and urgent loan,free feel to contact Mr.Akisu via his email{Akisuloancompany@gmail.com} Thank you may God bless youAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00955732480050839629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-59625193195088691052015-04-14T15:57:42.919+03:002015-04-14T15:57:42.919+03:00Dienekes is facinated with the BMAC Iranian connec...Dienekes is facinated with the BMAC Iranian connection, when in fact, it can (and has) reasonably be argued that the relationship between BMAC and Iranian cultures is too superficial to be supported on archeological grounds. <br /><br />As I have long suggested, the connection of Indo-Iranians is simply a South East Iranian component, often referred to as a 'Gedrosian component', which eventually even found itself into Europe by neolithic migrations, westward from the Iranian plateau (reflective, in part, by the distribution of haplogroup L scattered through Europe). This 'Gedrosian' component can essentially be considered Eastern Neolithic. <br /><br />To me it seems clear that the origin of J2/R1b was in a zone between NW IRan and through E. Turkey. There distributions correlates reasonably well with IE.blogmasterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11834163614642737338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-49914423579689426292014-10-01T10:45:53.284+03:002014-10-01T10:45:53.284+03:00"The "age estimates" are the result..."The "age estimates" are the result of using the inappropriate "evolutionary mutation rate", and become even older because of the inclusion of the DYS388 marker that is very stable in many haplogroups but very mutable within haplogroup J. On the left you can see frequency, Y-STR variance, and haplotype network structures for various J-related groups."<br /><br />I've been trying to figure that out for WEEKS. According to their spreadsheet some of the J2a's showed up on Crete 4,000 years before we know the island was settled.Pneumatikonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05135543740306228320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-28935095098283265742014-04-30T09:03:04.743+03:002014-04-30T09:03:04.743+03:00
We offer Loan Amount of: 5k-$5m I want to fully a...<br />We offer Loan Amount of: 5k-$5m I want to fully assure you that you will get the funds if only you are very serious and trustworthy because i like serious and God fearing people.If interested contact us fasterloanservice@gmail.com<br />marshahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11310013210517779890noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-26268770051441272412014-01-06T07:45:05.575+02:002014-01-06T07:45:05.575+02:00Here let me suggest a simplification, using 2 word...Here let me suggest a simplification, using 2 words: SILK ROAD.John Rudminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11589752671578961154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-85363822040585441542013-04-06T17:04:39.028+03:002013-04-06T17:04:39.028+03:00Give R subgroup variation, it is highly likely tha...Give R subgroup variation, it is highly likely that the ancient region of the Iran, was home to proto-IE (and perhaps IE, in parts IE included parts of NW Iran). blogmasterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11834163614642737338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-87079750354406658122013-03-24T02:57:33.763+02:002013-03-24T02:57:33.763+02:00I agree that the author gets a bit overzealous wit...I agree that the author gets a bit overzealous with his conclusions. The study in PLOS uses more genes (and a better mix of genes), so this study is not as 'unprecedented' as the author asserts. <br />blogmasterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11834163614642737338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-51067964684544759302012-08-12T13:03:56.698+03:002012-08-12T13:03:56.698+03:00I have question about your dendrogram of Y-haplogr...I have question about your dendrogram of Y-haplogroup frequencies and the hclust package of R , is it the mixture of R1a-R1b in middle East and Iran ? <b>Or it explain the relationship between Iranian R1a-R1b with all nation ?</b>Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09329315629594354214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-42366251596777545332012-07-27T21:18:38.509+03:002012-07-27T21:18:38.509+03:00Dienekes in update III: "It is often forgotte...Dienekes in update III: "It is often forgotten that before the spread of Islam, and quite time thereafter, Inner Asia was teeming with Zoroastrians and Nestorian Christians. It seems quite likely that these outliers represent a legacy of these communities."<br /><br />Maybe this applied also for Q1B-M378?<br />Because it is found among Azeris, Armenians (in other studies), Assyrians, jews and also some persians with a 5% among Khorasan persians who are on the border of central Asia.mregdnahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08210210663227034644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-43696919804863954182012-07-23T17:01:52.344+03:002012-07-23T17:01:52.344+03:00"a famous scythian ruler in a kurgan is descr...<i>"a famous scythian ruler in a kurgan is described as looking middle-east-like"</i> <br /><br />I forgot to mention the kurgan was in south Siberia, hence the particular importance in the discussion. <br /><br /><i>"That's funny, you were convinced that "they possessed female haplogroups that are absolutely similar to European hgs" a moment ago"</i> <br /><br />Well... not only the antique south Siberian mtDNA hg set had the same kind of female haplogroups found in Europe nowadays, but they had almost all their matches in Europe, according to Kayzer et al, 2009 (difficult to make mistakes, they provided a map with the exact and close matches for both male and female haplogroups, geographically), so it's difficult to not think about a link, especially in south Siberia, in such an archeological context.wagghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13582568982610797947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-40202489435974321912012-07-23T16:51:19.717+03:002012-07-23T16:51:19.717+03:00I still consider not totally sure the general hist...<i>I still consider not totally sure the general historical panorama of haplogroups, sorry. There are still a lot of blind spots in our current picture of it. </i><br /><br />That's funny, you were convinced that "they possessed female haplogroups that are absolutely similar to European hgs" a moment ago. I guess I should consider this progress.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-90965040906403967292012-07-23T16:40:27.682+03:002012-07-23T16:40:27.682+03:00"I already sent you the link to Mallory's...<i>"I already sent you the link to Mallory's talk, so go ahead and listen to it. This ain't the 1980s."</i> <br /><br />I've already read on the subject in one of his book (did the archeologists unfind what they had found? If it's a mistake by Mallory in the book that's a big blunder, especially since my book was already a "revised" (i don't know the english word) edition (2002, I think). <br />But Ok, I'll watch it (later). Thanks for the link. <br /><br /><i>"I also note that you completely ignore the presence of the West_Asian component in Siberia and Central Asia and/or the fact that the North_European substratum precedes any possible IE expansions since it is likely found from Iberia to Lake Baikal in clearly pre-PIE contexts."</i> <br /><br />I don't think I ignored it at all. Unless I missed something important (it's possible), I think I addressed everything that needed to be. <br /><br /><br /><i>"It is clear that the Caucasoid component in both the Tarim basin and Central Asia/Siberia is partially to predominantly of West Asian origin"</i> <br /><br />The question is when and who brought it there. I gave a few reason why I'm skeptical about this west Asian population popping out of nowhere bringing this particular language. But yes, it's still open, of course. <br /><br /><i>"Mongols from Outer Mongolia have about equal proportions of Atlantic_Baltic and West_Asian"</i> <br /><br />I know the archeology of inner Mongolia rather points to a Saka population settling IIRC (In other words, several kind of different populations from the west went east), I don't know what was the Saka impact in outer Mongolia. <br />Personally I always thought that the Sakas had some west asian, east Asian and a bit of south Asian genes among them (in different proportions depending of their people/tribe), it's visible in their morphology (For instance, a famous scythian ruler in a kurgan is described as looking middle-east-like) - unlike the Afanasevo population, that might have been admixed but apparently only slightly). <br /><br /><i>"The applied approach permitted identification of 60% of mtDNA types the majority of which had southern Caucasoid origin. Less than 10% of mtDNA types were of eastern European origin."</i> <br /><br />This thing is from 2002, it looks like he identified J and T as being for sure a _direct_ near east/middle east neolithic marker (and beside some could be a later addition (andronovo or scythian)). <br />I still consider not totally sure the general historical panorama of haplogroups, sorry. There are still a lot of blind spots in our current picture of it. <br /><br />The fact is that the Afanasevo population seems dominated by the north european populations (morphology and component). <a href="http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/ancient_Siberians.jpg" rel="nofollow">In this example</a> (Bouakaze et al. 2008 / IIRC, also some individuals of Kayzer et al 2009), only a few individuals (from a time period spanning over 2000 years) shifting towards Africans might clearly represent some Caucasus or west Asian genetic input.wagghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13582568982610797947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-38939472205295048102012-07-23T15:51:39.549+03:002012-07-23T15:51:39.549+03:00I will only add for the sake of completeness that ...I will only add for the sake of completeness that the question of N/S Caucasoid contributions to Asia has been addressed:<br /><br />http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2011/05/on-northernsouthern-caucasoid.html<br /><br />It is clear that the Caucasoid component in both the Tarim basin and Central Asia/Siberia is partially to predominantly of West Asian origin. It is only among some Altaic/Uralic populations with no known IE connections that the West_Asian component is weaker, although we must really go to places like the arctic coast or northeastern Siberia or China to lose it altogeher<br /><br />https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadHZ6SHpiLTNTa3lsUmZJY2pQblVRR2c#gid=0<br /><br />Mongols from Outer Mongolia have about equal proportions of Atlantic_Baltic and West_Asian. In short, there is no evidence in modern populations that are likely to have absorbed IE nomads for North_European without also West_Asian. This is also what we see with uniparental markers, where the most ancient U substratum has been invaded by bearers of southern Caucasoid lineages.<br /><br />http://dienekes.ifreepages.com/blog/archives/000206.html<br /><br />"The applied approach permitted identification of 60% of mtDNA types the majority of which had southern Caucasoid origin. Less than 10% of mtDNA types were of eastern European origin."<br /><br />Much more can be said, but I think it would be wasted in this particular discussion.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-53792853130752394862012-07-23T15:38:22.860+03:002012-07-23T15:38:22.860+03:00@wagg,
(*) Mallory states it in one of his book (...@wagg,<br /><br /><i>(*) Mallory states it in one of his book ("In search of the Indo-europeans") that sites of Srednij stog had agriculture and the cereals I mentionned (+ peas). Yamna also had sites with some agriculture but I don't know the details. </i><br /><br />I already sent you the link to Mallory's talk, so go ahead and listen to it. This ain't the 1980s.<br /><br />Your speculations about the Yakut are noted, but Yakut are irrelevant, since they have nothing to do with Indo-Europeans.<br /><br />I also note that you completely ignore the presence of the West_Asian component in Siberia and Central Asia and/or the fact that the North_European substratum precedes any possible IE expansions since it is likely found from Iberia to Lake Baikal in clearly pre-PIE contexts.<br /><br />All the remaining parts of your comment about what you "think" or what "seems to you" are devoid of facts or arguments and hence ignored.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-36917811553451066152012-07-23T15:27:10.335+03:002012-07-23T15:27:10.335+03:00@Dienekes:
"Moreover, the Yakuts are unique ...@Dienekes:<br /><br /><i>"Moreover, the Yakuts are unique among Siberian populations in having a high number of haplotypes shared exclusively with Europeans, suggesting, contrary to the historical record, that occasionally Yakut men took Russian women as wives" </i> <br /><br /><b>"contrary to historical record"</b> . <br />The scientists were left (then) with a mystery and had to guess where these hgs came from. Now we know better. Ancient chalcolithic west Eurasian populations is the key. <br />So many _different_ west eurasian female haplogroups among the Yakuts? What's with this? It doesn't work at all. <br />Did all these "Russian" women also married with the Tungusic Udege of _south-eastern_ Siberia (having some H, H5, H11a, T2 and U2e and no west eurasian male lineages)? <br />It's not credible to my ear. <br /><br /><i>"but we know the Scythians are derived from local steppic populations (AFAIK archeology sees a continuity between the Andronovo cultural horizon and the subsequent scythians).<br /> No, we don't. In case you've missed it, there is clear evidence for a change in mtDNA gene pool between the Bronze and Iron Ages"</i> <br /><br />Archeologically-speaking the Scythians seem mostly derived from the earlier population, that's what I've read anyway (Maybe other books would disagree, I didn't read everything on the subject, so...), so I'd say they were at least the dominant element. <br />And I don't think the exact genetic history of that region is completely clear yet. <br /><br /> <i>"No, they did not, even Mallory is clear that the absence of grains in the steppe spells trouble for the idea that Tocharians came from the steppe"</i><br /><br />The fact that the earliest Tarim mummies had it and that their ancestors likely came from the east of the Pontic steppes _also had it_ (see below about Mallory), and that they show convincing signs of coming from south Siberia is really good enough for me to keep an open mind about it all. <br /><br /><i>"It is also not clear that Afanasevo is derived from Yamna groups"</i> <br /><br />Oh yes, it is. Everything yells it: from the sepultures, the cultual objects, the potteries, the copper metallurgy (and also silver metallurgy, that was rare in that time but found on the Pontic steppes IIRC), pastoralism, etc... Their morphology also is the same that the north and east Yamna population group. <br /><br /><i>"Don't confuse the people of the Tarim basin with the people of the steppes who DID NOT have grains at this time."</i><br /><br />The steppes? The ancestral Kurgan cultures (*) had some even if it was a minor thing. So it in the early Yamna-derived population reaching the Altai during Chalcolithic. <br /><br />(*) Mallory states it in one of his book (<i>"In search of the Indo-europeans"</i>) that sites of Srednij stog had agriculture and the cereals I mentionned (+ peas). Yamna also had sites with some agriculture but I don't know the details. <br /><br /><i>"Proto-Europoid doesn't mean European. Also, their mtDNA haplogroups were not particularly European."</i> <br /><br />I think they do, especially with the presence of this north european component and the fact that these mtDNA lineages had most of their matches in Europe (overwhelmingly actually).wagghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13582568982610797947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-71276302606622527692012-07-23T14:20:42.680+03:002012-07-23T14:20:42.680+03:00I will also add that there is no mystery in Tochar...I will also add that there is no mystery in Tocharian having Uralic loanwords, since there is clear evidence for a very mixed Caucasoid-Mongoloid early population the Tarim (during the time of the so-called "European-looking" mummies), and when Indo-European groups arrived there they may very well have picked up some of the genes and vocabulary of this mixed population.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-44987955302086448102012-07-23T14:17:21.629+03:002012-07-23T14:17:21.629+03:00hmm... Highly unlikely. AFAIK they only have R1a1a...<i>hmm... Highly unlikely. AFAIK they only have R1a1a and their mtDNA hgs set was diverse and quite similar to mtDNA hgs of kayzer et al 2009. So much Russian entering the Yakut Gene pool is not a reasonable assumption (especially since IIRC the Cossacks were the colonizer of Siberia in the name of Russia, so I'd expect some more specific hgs)</i><br /><br />You are wrong.<br /><br />"Moreover, the Yakuts are unique among Siberian populations in having a high number of haplotypes shared exclusively with Europeans, suggesting, contrary to the historical record, that occasionally Yakut men took Russian women as wives."<br /><br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12567375<br /><br /><i>but we know the Scythians are derived from local steppic populations (AFAIK archeology sees a continuity between the Andronovo cultural horizon and the subsequent scythians). </i><br /><br />No, we don't. In case you've missed it, there is clear evidence for a change in mtDNA gene pool between the Bronze and Iron Ages:<br /><br />http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/07/population-strata-in-west-siberian.html<br /><br /><i>It's often argued that some agricultural vocabulary found in the tocharian languages goes against an origin on the pontic Steppes. That's ignoring that the ancestral cultures linked to PIE in the KUrgan theory did have a little agriculture (both srednij stog and Yamna, actually even some of the Andronvo cultures had a bit too IIRC what I've read in Kuz'mina). </i><br /><br />No, they did not, even Mallory is clear that the absence of grains in the steppe spells trouble for the idea that Tocharians came from the steppe:<br /><br />http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/before-silk-unsolved-mysteries-of-silk.html<br /><br />Of course, the most likely origin of Tocharian is related to the R1b that entered the Tarim basin and is found in the modern population.<br /><br />http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/on-tocharian-origins.html <br /><br />It is also not clear that Afanasevo is derived from Yamna groups<br /><br />http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/michael-frachetti-on-inner-asian.html<br /><br /><i>These population settling in these regions before 2100 BCE were already using agriculture besides pastoralism. It's so true that the Loulan beauty, a west eurasian-looking woman from ~1800 BCE found in the eastern Tarim, had a wheat basket burried with her. besides they used the same kind of cereals that we find on the chalcolithic Pontic steppes where there is a little agriculture (wheat, barley, millet...). They also had horses, sheeps and some cattle like the Afanasevo populations. </i><br /><br />Don't confuse the people of the Tarim basin with the people of the steppes who DID NOT have grains at this time.<br /><br /><i>Yeah, except that the ancient south Siberian R1a1a samples (kayzer et al 2009) were both (its especially true for the most ancient individuals) morphologically proto-europoid (at the very least for the most part) like the population at the Volga and in the Pontic steppes, and that they possessed female haplogroups that are absolutely similar to European hgs, and of course carrier of a strong north european ausosomal component (as it is found everywhere in these regions). </i><br /><br />Proto-Europoid doesn't mean European. Also, their mtDNA haplogroups were not particularly European.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-54729848485687500452012-07-23T13:54:03.925+03:002012-07-23T13:54:03.925+03:00(2nd part of the post)
There seem to be no west A...(2nd part of the post)<br /><br />There seem to be no west Asian or south Asian loanwords in Tocharian languages (yes, they really were different languages, so it implies a rather long time to diversify locally). No (ancient) Iranic loanwords either (AFAIK the only indo-iranian words are linked to the spread of Buddhism, and thus rather recent). <br />On the other hand, the ancestor of proto-Tocharian was quite possibly in close geographically proximity of Uralic (as I mentionned in the thread <a href="http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/07/proto-indo-european-and-north-caucasian.html?showComment=1341486064726#c4286988842898621411" rel="nofollow">"Proto-Indo-European and North Caucasian"</a>) and there are also tracks of what could be linked to some proto-altaic languages - IIRC things such as proto-Turkic and proto-Tungusic are mentionned - (in <i>"Turkic and Chinese loan words in Tocharian"</i> by A. Lubotsky and S. Starostin). <br /><br />Where were hiding the proto-Tocharians before arriving to the Tarim? <br />In central Asia? And not receiving any Iranic input? If it's older than the Iranic presence then we would expect the oldest mummies to have also other male hgs beside R1a1a (because that Indo-iranian presence on the steppes would likely place us not too far from the time of the earliest mummies)? <br />In west Asia? And not receiving any input from the local powerful influent populations of these regions? <br />In south Asia? Same remark. <br />Why not "hiding" in south Siberia? these populations would have had to rely more on agriculture as they went souther and they had to survive in a new rougher environment, that's all. <br /><br />But at this point we can't really prove it for sure, so let's just put that aside. <br /><br /><br /><i>"First of all, R1a1a is not European in origin. It is deeply structured, and there is no reason at present to suppose that Central Asian R1a1a is closely related to that of Europe."</i><br /><br />Yeah, except that the ancient south Siberian R1a1a samples (kayzer et al 2009) were both (its especially true for the most ancient individuals) morphologically proto-europoid (at the very least for the most part) like the population at the Volga and in the Pontic steppes, and that they possessed female haplogroups that are absolutely similar to European hgs, and of course carrier of a strong north european ausosomal component (as it is found everywhere in these regions). <br /><br /><i>"Secondly, there are plenty of West Asian male hgs in both Central Asia and Siberia. "</i><br /><br />In siberia? Plenty? Wich ones? I can't remember any.wagghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13582568982610797947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-15414457313192411312012-07-23T13:51:57.109+03:002012-07-23T13:51:57.109+03:00Dienekes:
"Their West Eurasian component may...Dienekes: <br /><i>"Their West Eurasian component may reflect either recent Russian admixture" </i><br /><br />hmm... Highly unlikely. AFAIK they only have R1a1a and their mtDNA hgs set was diverse and quite similar to mtDNA hgs of <i>kayzer et al 2009</i>. So much Russian entering the Yakut Gene pool is not a reasonable assumption (especially since IIRC the Cossacks were the colonizer of Siberia in the name of Russia, so I'd expect some more specific hgs)<br /><br /><i>"or the absorption of the aboriginal mixed U+Mongoloid population of Siberia that extended up to Lake Baikal during the Neolithic. Certainly not any "Indo-Europeans"."</i> <br /><br />mtDNA U? The Yakuts possess even mtDNA J and T in the study I've seen. And I don't see what's so certain about not being IE. <br /><br /><i>"we know that the Scythians were Indo-Europeans, which is not the same for any of the preceding populations."</i><br /><br />Yes, we actually don't know what where speaking the former steppic populations but we know the Scythians are derived from local steppic populations (AFAIK archeology sees a continuity between the Andronovo cultural horizon and the subsequent scythians). <br />We do have tracks of proto-indo-iranian (and even a more ancient IE stage) in Uralic, so that seems to put the theory that puts it as a neighbor of Uralic, ahead of other theories (I can admit that there are still room for other theories but still...). <br /><br /><i>"Also, R1a1a may have been the only haplogroup detected in the samples from Siberia and the Tarim so far, but it is not the only Caucasoid haplogroup in the current populations. <b>There is little reason to suppose that the languages spoken by R1a1a 5,000 years ago were the same as the languages of the Sakae and Tocharians spoken there 1-3 thousand years ago. </b>"</i> <br /><br />More than little IMO: <br /><br />In the Kurgan theory context, the fact that Afanasvo is a result of migration from the eastern part of early Yamna fits exactly with the fact that Tocharian is said to be one of the most ancient branching within IE. <br />It's often argued that some agricultural vocabulary found in the tocharian languages goes against an origin on the pontic Steppes. That's ignoring that the ancestral cultures linked to PIE in the KUrgan theory did have a little agriculture (both srednij stog and Yamna, actually even some of the Andronvo cultures had a bit too IIRC what I've read in Kuz'mina). <br />There is no tracks of agriculture in Afanasevo (yet) but it doesn't mean it didn' texist at all as a minor thing, like in their ancestral lands, west. <br /><br />The fact is that the earliest Tarim mummies (that were found in eastern Tarim and in north-west Gansu, which BTW fits better with them arriving from the north (south Siberia and thus as an offshoot of Afanasevo) rather than directly from the west, through the desert) were likely to come from south Siberia (<i>chunxiang Li et al 2010</i> about the aDNA of the Xiaohe people (<b>all males were R1a1a</b>, a few west Eurasian mtDNA hgs (interestingly, the mtDNA H had most of its matches in England... and as far as Iceland), and the major east Asian mtDNA hg among them was C4, an haplogroup that almost certainly came from south Siberia/near the Altai, where it's still frequent)). <br />These population settling in these regions before 2100 BCE were already using agriculture besides pastoralism. It's so true that the Loulan beauty, a west eurasian-looking woman from ~1800 BCE found in the eastern Tarim, had a wheat basket burried with her. besides they used the same kind of cereals that we find on the chalcolithic Pontic steppes where there is a little agriculture (wheat, barley, millet...). They also had horses, sheeps and some cattle like the Afanasevo populations. <br /><br />(the rest of the post is following)wagghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13582568982610797947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-22561233099350820122012-07-23T12:23:38.632+03:002012-07-23T12:23:38.632+03:00Siberia? I don't remember seeing that (can you...<i>Siberia? I don't remember seeing that (can you provide me a link, please?).</i><br /><br />It's in the K7b spreadsheet.<br /><br /><i>The Yakuts possess male and female lineages largely similar to the aDNA of the ancient Altai-sayan and I only remember a north european component as west eurasian autosomal element among them. </i><br /><br />The Yakut are not exactly typical Siberians, given that they live in NE Siberia and migrated from Lake Baikal which is the limit of the Caucasoid presence in Siberia. Their West Eurasian component may reflect either recent Russian admixture, or the absorption of the aboriginal mixed U+Mongoloid population of Siberia that extended up to Lake Baikal during the Neolithic. Certainly not any "Indo-Europeans".<br /><br />But you can find plenty of Siberian and Central Asian populations with lots of West_Asian in the spreadsheet.<br /><br /><i>It could have been brought in Siberia mostly in the Scythian period. </i><br /><br />Indeed it may, and we know that the Scythians were Indo-Europeans, which is not the same for any of the preceding populations.<br /><br />The bottom line is that the North_European component represents the aboriginal Caucasoid substratum on a huge region from Iberia to Gotland to Siberia, and over that substratum a West_Asian component was added in the Bronze and Iron Ages.<br /><br /><i> there were several T in the female lineages but only R1a1a - except for one y-DNA C - (just like nowadays, the Altaians are still about 50% R1a1a) on the Y-DNA side of these proto-europoid probably coming from not to far of the Volga. </i><br /><br />Where they came from is an open question, and certainly not addressed by Keyser et al. <br /><br />Also, R1a1a may have been the only haplogroup detected in the samples from Siberia and the Tarim so far, but it is not the only Caucasoid haplogroup in the current populations. There is little reason to suppose that the languages spoken by R1a1a 5,000 years ago were the same as the languages of the Sakae and Tocharians spoken there 1-3 thousand years ago.<br /><br /><i>Anyway, in this specific case, this fact is unlikely to be the mark of an indo-europeanization to me (West_Asian male hgs would be more overt in the gene pool). R1a1a looks like the dominant element. <br /></i><br /><br /><br />First of all, R1a1a is not European in origin. It is deeply structured, and there is no reason at present to suppose that Central Asian R1a1a is closely related to that of Europe.<br /><br />Secondly, there are plenty of West Asian male hgs in both Central Asia and Siberia. Only certain Uralic and Turko-Mongolian populations in the territory of interest seem to lack them.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-37773498742369598132012-07-23T11:51:23.379+03:002012-07-23T11:51:23.379+03:00Dienekes: "Tripolye-Cucuteni is more likely t...<b>Dienekes</b>: <i>"Tripolye-Cucuteni is more likely to have been IE than the regions to the east of it." </i><br /><br />They don't seem to fit with anything culturally Indo-european. But I guess it's possible newcomers from the steppes might have been indo-europeanized when they would have taken the region, a bit like the Normands (scandinavian not long before) imposing French in England. <br /><br /><i>"The West_Asian is not limited to Europe, but also occurs in Siberia and Central Asia"</i> <br /><br />Siberia? I don't remember seeing that (can you provide me a link, please?). If it is so, probably not much. The Yakuts possess male and female lineages largely similar to the aDNA of the ancient Altai-sayan and I only remember a north european component as west eurasian autosomal element among them. <br />It could have been brought in Siberia mostly in the Scythian period. <br />Anyway even if it's to be linked to early Yamna (source of Afanasevo), this component can be from population from the Caucasus/southern Russia (like the Adygei region) as there are mtDNA hgs that fit with it (U1a for instance. U3 would fit too). <br /><br />You're probably thinking or mtDNA T yourself, as West_Asian marker in these populations, but in <i>Kayzer et al, 2009</i>, the aDNA of bronze and iron age south Siberia/Altai-sayan (that we can assume the popoulation actually find its origin in the Afanasevo culture, starting about 3500-3200 BCE), there were several T in the female lineages but only R1a1a - except for one y-DNA C - (just like nowadays, the Altaians are still about 50% R1a1a) on the Y-DNA side of these proto-europoid probably coming from not to far of the Volga. <br />No J2a. Where did they pick so much West_Asian women up? weird. <br />Anyway, in this specific case, this fact is unlikely to be the mark of an indo-europeanization to me (West_Asian male hgs would be more overt in the gene pool). R1a1a looks like the dominant element. <br /><br /><br /><b>Slumbery</b>: <i>"You probably mean that language "layer" in the Hungarian that came from steppe Iranian languages (possibly Scytian or some related)"</i> <br /><br />No, I do mean some Indic (or Indic-like). An exemple among others (also interesting because related to pastoralism): Hungarian <i>tehén</i> (cow) is obviously more related to sanskrit <i>dhenu</i> (-> Punjabi <i>dhen</i>) than to Iranic (Avestan <i>dainu</i>).wagghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13582568982610797947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-64803792272547648472012-07-23T04:57:28.266+03:002012-07-23T04:57:28.266+03:00'Just as 'West Asian' peaks in the Cau...'Just as 'West Asian' peaks in the Caucasus, r1b has a peak in the basque, but neither case eliminates an IE connection". <br /><br />R1b as extremely common in the Basques rather eliminates it as a candidate for the spread of IE. That is if we assume Basque is not related to IE. Basque looks very likely to have been in that region some time before IE arrived. <br /><br />"there is no anthropological/archaeological evidence for population replacement at that time in Europe. Even arch-supporters of the steppe IE hypothesis like JP Mallory and D. Anthony explicitly reject population replacement". <br /><br />For that reason we are unlikely to find a correlation between IE and any particular haplogroup(s). <br /><br />"If one had to guess what haplogroups were brought by Near Eastern farmers into Europe, they would probably guess J or R1b, but it turns out that they brought the unexpected G2a" <br /><br />Or all three.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-36831929348354811512012-07-23T00:11:30.690+03:002012-07-23T00:11:30.690+03:00What is the possible source of a population that h...<i>What is the possible source of a population that have significant Southern but do not have any West Asian? </i><br /><br />West Asia, like Europe, changed during prehistory. Modern Europeans aren't like ancient Europeans from the same localities of 5,000 years ago, and neither are modern West Asians like the people of 5,000 years ago.<br /><br />If one had to guess what haplogroups were brought by Near Eastern farmers into Europe, they would probably guess J or R1b, but it turns out that they brought the unexpected G2a.<br /><br />The most likely scenario is that the earliest farming groups that entered Europe weren't like modern-day Anatolians; the latter were probably formed by migration of highlanders who brought the J/R1b mix and the West_Asian component currently dominating there.<br /><br />So, you basically had "Southern" like people being involved in the Neolithic; these guys dominate North Africa, Arabia, and the Levant. Then, after the early Neolithic (and after farmers had already crossed to Europe) you have the spread of new non-coastal people into the lowlands; these probably carried J and R1b.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-68263209897391526892012-07-22T22:42:17.712+03:002012-07-22T22:42:17.712+03:00Dienekes
Thank you for the answers. However I am ...Dienekes<br /><br />Thank you for the answers. However I am not satisfied (not with the answers, but the whole problem of the meaning of the admixture components). <br /><br />Since you pointed out that Sardinians and Ötzi have Caucasus because of Southern and that's why they do not have West Asian, let's take these. <br /><br /><b>What is the possible source of a population that have significant Southern but do not have any West Asian? </b><br />The article about the G2a variability tells maybe the Armenian Highland. But the current population of the Armenian Highland is dominated by West Asian. Let's say the West Asian dominance there is a later development. But the West Asian component is very strong in the whole Levant, even as far as Yemen or even Egypt. Of course the whole region must have changed a lot since that migration happened, but there have to be a limit of this type of explanation, because at this point we are between two radical options: <br />1. The ancestors of Ötzi came from Africa (totally in contradiction with the Y-DNA results)<br />2. After this population left, there was a Huge migration in the Levant that partially replaced a significant part of the population of a wide area introduced high West Asian admixture. <br /><br />Either these two, or something not OK with the analysis itself.Slumberyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05139930329199925111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-69535400983764169042012-07-22T21:07:57.669+03:002012-07-22T21:07:57.669+03:00wagg
"Besides it works better with the track...wagg<br /><br /><i>"Besides it works better with the tracks of Indic (or something close enough) found in languages of, for instance, the EAST of the Ural mountains (like in Hungarian, that came from there), where we don't find Y-DNA J2 anywhere close."</i><br /><br />You probably mean that language "layer" in the Hungarian that came from steppe Iranian languages (possibly Scytian or some related), at least I learnt so in the high school. It is very unlikely that they have actual Indic origin, more like the "something close enough" category. It is possible though that the Hungarian in a few cases preserved a more ancient version than the modern Iranian languages themselves. <br /><br />Hungarian linguistics place the beginning of a separate Hungarian (the split from the closest relatives) roughly around 1200 BC. <br /><br />However language and genetics are tend to be two different businesses.Slumberyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05139930329199925111noreply@blogger.com