tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post6860127738615370964..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Supplement on "Geographical structure and differential natural selection amongst North European populations" (McEvoy et al. 2009)Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger75125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-12951652283028578192009-05-26T22:15:33.292+03:002009-05-26T22:15:33.292+03:00I have following Fsts for Finns from "Genome-wide ...I have following Fsts for Finns from "Genome-wide Insights into the Patterns and Determinants<br />of Fine-Scale Population Structure in Humans", Shameek Biswas, 2009 :<br /><br />Finns (Helsinki) :<br /><br />Austria 0.0060 <br />Bulgaria 0.0090 <br />Czech Republic 0.0060<br />Estonia 0.0040<br />France 0.0080<br />Northern Germany 0.0060<br />Southern Germany 0.0060<br />Hungary 0.0060<br />Northern Italy 0.0130<br />Southern Italy 0.0160<br />Latvia 0.0070<br />Lithuania 0.0070<br />Poland 0.0060<br />Russia 0.0060<br />Spain 0.0110<br />Sweden 0.0050<br />Switzerland 0.0090<br />CEU 0.0060<br /><br />Finns (Kuusamo) :<br /><br />Austria 0.0130<br />Bulgaria 0.0150<br />Czech Republic 0.0120<br />Estonia 0.0090<br />France 0.0150<br />Northern Germany 0.0120<br />Southern Germany 0.0130<br />Hungary 0.0130<br />Northern Italy 0.0200<br />Southern Italy 0.0230<br />Latvia 0.0130<br />Lithuania 0.0130<br />Poland 0.0120<br />Russia 0.0120<br />Spain 0.0170<br />Sweden 0.0110<br />Switzerland 0.0150<br />CEU 0.0130<br /><br />As we can see there is less genetic distance, for example, between Northern Italians and Palestinians (fst 0.0108) than between Northern Italians and Finns (even from Helsinki fst 0.0130) ! Bad news for these stupid euro-nationalists that would like to match "political" europe borders with genetic ones ...Antoine1706https://www.blogger.com/profile/03897615920319105519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-27698576631709689672009-05-08T18:38:00.000+03:002009-05-08T18:38:00.000+03:00Our interest in specified people concides. :) If y...Our interest in specified people concides. :) If you'll need a deeper information in direction of East-European gene pool (the extracts are just part of results) or help with Russian, you may find contacts in my profiles.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-2537921446811369932009-05-08T16:13:00.000+03:002009-05-08T16:13:00.000+03:00Thank you for all information! I got help in Rus...Thank you for all information! I got help in Russian and have now basic knowlwdge to understand this study. The last picture seems very interesting, the locations of Finns, Lithuanian, Northern Russian and Karelians are in my interest and this seem to be something I figured earlier. I am very thankful :) I believe I could have much new information from Russian studies.Maurihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03670078523265515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-64540161851630240552009-05-08T15:16:00.000+03:002009-05-08T15:16:00.000+03:00The refered monograph couldn't help you about Nort...The refered monograph couldn't help you about Northern and Western Europe. There's much information on Y and mtDNA for Europe and Eurasia, but complex autosomal data is too large-scaled: Europe, Northern Eurasia, Indostan etc.<br /><br />Much more detailed and wide information there is for populations of ex-USSR and Russians. So if you need something about them - you're welcome.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-10442636852455959792009-05-08T14:45:00.000+03:002009-05-08T14:45:00.000+03:00Yes, I se now what you mean. There is a couple of...Yes, I se now what you mean. There is a couple of problems; I don't understand Russian and these maps have not European data. I hope to see PCA- and MDS-maps covering Russian, Eastern Europe and Northern Europe, because in real PCA and MDS everything corralate everything.Maurihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03670078523265515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-88862955254317431782009-05-08T14:25:00.000+03:002009-05-08T14:25:00.000+03:00drfaust-spb, I don't see any autosomal maps, only...drfaust-spb, I don't see any autosomal maps, only a MDS-map of Y-chromosomal variation. If we are talking about the same Balanovsky study...Maurihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03670078523265515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-8811524223975845482009-05-08T14:18:00.000+03:002009-05-08T14:18:00.000+03:00Note, to get better quality of images you should d...Note, to get better quality of images you should download the document from Scribd.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-86972801595539713102009-05-08T13:14:00.000+03:002009-05-08T13:14:00.000+03:00mikej2,
not a problem with autosomal DNA. The res...mikej2,<br /><br />not a problem with autosomal DNA. The research of russian gene pool by Balanovsky and Balanovska include their own expedition data on anthropology, dermatoglyphics and genetics (autosomal, Y and mtDNA). In extractions from their monograph you can see syntetic maps for every of these fields of knowledge.<br /><br />What about syntetic autosomal maps, here they are (link to monograph extractions upwards):<br />- figure 8.2.3. - the map of gene pool divesity in East Europe (first principal component);<br />- figure 8.2.4. - the map of gene pool divesity in East Europe (second principal component).<br /><br />Here's also <A HREF="http://www.scribd.com/doc/15080655/The-map-of-genetical-distances-from-average-russian-population-autosomal-DNA" REL="nofollow">the map of genetical distances</A> from average russian population in Eastern Europe (autosomal DNA).<br /><br />P.S. My another one login.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-83944990506403127252009-05-08T11:25:00.000+03:002009-05-08T11:25:00.000+03:00Thanks Aleksei,
I can see that in this study we h...Thanks Aleksei,<br /><br />I can see that in this study we have YDNA mappings over the European part of Russia. There is some problem to compare this study to what we have been discussing, because the Ydna has no recombinationa and it has therefor longer invariability. <br /><br />But some things can still be seen. On page 242 you can see that the northern part of Russia, to north and northwest from Moscow, has remarkable quantity of to haplogroups, I1 (formely I1a) a and N1-tatc (formely N3-tat). Basically this is the area which I want to see also in autosomal MDS-maps. The problem is that Russia is a multinational country and all look it from own point of view, as we have seen before.Maurihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03670078523265515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-60204526781305649252009-05-07T19:39:00.000+03:002009-05-07T19:39:00.000+03:00to mikej2and everybody who wants detailed informat...<B>to mikej2</B>and everybody who wants detailed information about Russians.<br /><br />Here's the acticle "<A HREF="http://www.scribd.com/doc/14151456/Two-Sources-of-the-Russian-Patrilineal-Heritage-in-the-Eurasian-context" REL="nofollow">Two Sources of the Russian Patrilineal Heritage in the Eurasian context"</A> by O. Balanovsky at al. (in English).<br /><br />The detailed information about research of Russian gene pool by O.Balanovsky and E.Balanovska with more maps you may find in <A HREF="http://www.scribd.com/doc/14149874/Russian-gene-pool-in-EastEuropean-context" REL="nofollow">extracts from their monograph</A> "Russian gene pool on East-European plain" (in Russian).Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07767839364720361883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-39768229850657210272009-05-07T00:43:00.000+03:002009-05-07T00:43:00.000+03:00Somewhat off topic.
On page 48 of the recent stud...Somewhat off topic.<br /><br />On page 48 of the recent study <br />"Human Genetic Variation in the Baltic Sea Region: Features of Population History and Natural Selection", by Tuuli Lappalainen, it talks about criticisms to Zhivotovsky's effective mutation rate and refers specifically to the work by Pontikos (2008).argiedudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11512295756932222613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-61576648570015012842009-05-07T00:24:00.000+03:002009-05-07T00:24:00.000+03:00OT, but if anyone want to share 23andme data - jus...OT, but if anyone want to share 23andme data - just contact me, same name as here. I'm happy to share at either Basic or Full.<br /><br />Cheers!pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-31750389435629887932009-05-06T18:48:00.000+03:002009-05-06T18:48:00.000+03:00Dienekes, the factors influencing the frequencies ...Dienekes, the factors influencing the frequencies of anthropolgical traits within Europe go way beyond the first few components of between-population genetic variation. All that stuff about individual best matches has to be taken into account too, and then also the environment and living conditions. Surely you know that.<br /><br />Deniker didn't do anything remarkeable, apart from making a few broad observations, some of which have stayed true to today. But I personally don't see much of a correlation between these particular PCAs and his theories.<br /><br />You're just encouraging stupidity (fe. from Crimson) by making posts like this.Polakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08791738703122670119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-73675303825785954932009-05-06T18:37:00.000+03:002009-05-06T18:37:00.000+03:00I have following Fsts for Finns:
Denmark 0.00551
...I have following Fsts for Finns:<br /><br />Denmark 0.00551<br />Ireland 0.00721<br />Netherland 0.00627<br />Sweden 0.00437<br />UK 0.00642<br /><br />And from an another study<br /><br />Finn East<br />Sweden 0.0072<br />FinW 0.0032<br />GER 0.0084<br />BRI 0.0094<br /><br />Finn West<br />Sweden 0.0030<br />FinnE 0.0032<br />GER 0.0033<br />BRI 0.0042<br /><br />What next?Maurihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03670078523265515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-91243045731168654082009-05-06T18:16:00.000+03:002009-05-06T18:16:00.000+03:00Ok, I'm getting bored so here are the knockout pun...<I>Ok, I'm getting bored so here are the knockout punches to your litle theory. Fst values from Heath et al. 2008</I>Which "little theory" of mine is invalidated by the fact that Russians are closer than Poles to the Chinese by an amount that is 17 times the Russian-Polish Fst and in the order of the largest observed intra-European Fst?Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-60361421245317550522009-05-06T18:06:00.000+03:002009-05-06T18:06:00.000+03:00My point is that the global and European PCAs capt...My point is that the global and European PCAs capture different aspects of variation in this case. This is proven by the fact that the first two principal components in the European-only PCA correspond to components 3 and 4 in the global PCA.<br /><br />It is not at all surprising then that Russians and Poles mingle in the European-only PCA and are separated in the global PCA: the "East Eurasian" element in the global PCA is captured in the first two principal components, and the European variation is captured in the 3rd and 4th one, in which Poles mingle with Russians due to their common genetic background as Eastern European Slavs.<br /><br />Incidentally, the fact that in components 1 and 2 Russians and Poles do not mingle, and in the lower-order components 3 and 4 they do, further reinforces the fact that eastern Eurasian influence is the major cause of variation in this region, which is also supported by the Fst table.<br /><br />I don't know what relevance you see for Finns, as Finns deviate from the European cluster in the first 2 PCs for both intra-European and inter-European plots. <I>If</I> Finns were "mingling" with Europeans in the European-only plot, but not in the global plot, then it could be argued that the European-only plot captured only intra-European sources of variation. But that <I>if</I> is false.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-60840702058957586782009-05-06T17:54:00.000+03:002009-05-06T17:54:00.000+03:00Ok, I'm getting bored so here are the knockout pun...Ok, I'm getting bored so here are the knockout punches to your litle theory. Fst values from Heath et al. 2008<br /><br />Russians vs. Chinese 0.1036<br />Swedes vs. Chinese 0.1073<br />Poles vs. Chinese 0.1086<br /><br />..and False positives from Tehva Lu.<br /><br />Swedes vs. Finns 0.078<br />Poles vs. Finns 0.096<br /><br />My god, nothing fits? :(Polakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08791738703122670119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-82681827171196406052009-05-06T17:19:00.000+03:002009-05-06T17:19:00.000+03:00Btw, what's your point exactly abot components 3 a...Btw, what's your point exactly abot components 3 and 4?<br /><br />1 and 2 are the main components, and if we looked at all the components, Poles and Russians would still not be in the same spot in relation to Asian samples (see Fst data).Polakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08791738703122670119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-940004949801777722009-05-06T17:13:00.000+03:002009-05-06T17:13:00.000+03:00There's a subset of Russians on the global PCA who...There's a subset of Russians on the global PCA who are further from Poles than the Spaniards.<br /><br />That's who I'm referring to. You didn't notice them?Polakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08791738703122670119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-80924760676662080902009-05-06T17:02:00.000+03:002009-05-06T17:02:00.000+03:00Notice that in Heath et al. 2008 there are some Ru...<I>Notice that in Heath et al. 2008 there are some Russians who deviate strongly towards Asians on the inter-continental plot, but then mingle with Poles on the intra-European one.</I>Russians also "mingle" with Poles in the global PCA. Not very surprising, as Russians and Poles are very close relatives, with the former having picked up some Finno-Ugrian elements as well.<br /><br /><B>"Interestingly, the first two components of the European only<br />PCA are almost identical to components 3 and 4 from<br />the PCA, including all four HapMap cohorts"</B>Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-28278857839194345592009-05-06T16:23:00.000+03:002009-05-06T16:23:00.000+03:00Dienekes,
I understood what you wrote. It just me...Dienekes,<br /><br />I understood what you wrote. It just means that Finns have been affected by strong random drift in their own direction.<br /><br />Notice that in Heath et al. 2008 there are some Russians who deviate strongly towards Asians on the inter-continental plot, but then mingle with Poles on the intra-European one.<br /><br />So the Asian factor is not what's making the Finns look funny, because it would also make the Russians look funny. The Fst difference in Asian affinity between Poland and Russia is huge, and that must be the result of the subset of Russians deviating to Asia, and these are probably just Finno-Ugrians or Tatars with some Slavic admix.Polakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08791738703122670119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-61565422544335157672009-05-06T16:15:00.000+03:002009-05-06T16:15:00.000+03:00Ok fine.
How many Poles do you have results for? ...Ok fine.<br /><br />How many Poles do you have results for? And what are their admix rates, if you don't mind saying?Polakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08791738703122670119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-6540353633616876482009-05-06T16:14:00.000+03:002009-05-06T16:14:00.000+03:00Why are they west of Poles on every intra-European...<I>Why are they west of Poles on every intra-European PCA plot ever released?</I>Now, go back, read and understand what I wrote, and perhaps you won't have to ask such an irrelevant question.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-54518603515986250962009-05-06T16:12:00.000+03:002009-05-06T16:12:00.000+03:00Polak, it seems that I am not able to explain you ...Polak, it seems that I am not able to explain you how these numbers work. Let's change the topic. You must at first make this clear to youself.Maurihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03670078523265515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-79529603479554745802009-05-06T16:03:00.000+03:002009-05-06T16:03:00.000+03:00Polak: "You're looking on the wrong plot.
I said...Polak: "You're looking on the wrong plot.<br /><br />I said the world plot, not the European one."<br /><br />Same thing whatever level you look. Infact Finn with 0% aAian block is the most on the right on my map. Believe me, I know this issue :)Maurihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03670078523265515878noreply@blogger.com