tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post6476527530893654704..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: rolloff analysis of North European admixture in Greeks.Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-73258454706166245822012-09-22T01:27:17.822+03:002012-09-22T01:27:17.822+03:00well gee thanks; pray tell me how, Very extensive ...<i>well gee thanks; pray tell me how, Very extensive <br />simulations in the main paper (ancient admixture,,) <br />show rolloff to be very well calibrated and robust<br />at least under simple scenarios, And complex scenarios are hard (for everybody), In the Uyghur <br />the genetic signal and date are especially clear. It's <br />unlikely that the signal is "wrong" but how to interpret itis not so clear,</i><br /><br />Archaeogenetics and history tell us that present-day Uyghurs are the result of a fluctuating Caucasoid-Mongoloid mix in the Tarim basin within the past several millennia. There have been multiple migration events from multiple locations into the Tarim basin within that time that shuffled the mix either towards a more Caucasoid or a more Mongoloid direction, add to these some South Asian genetic influence. So it is clear that the Uyghur case is far from being a simple one-time admixture event such as the African American and Hispanic cases and thus its rolloff dating should not be taken at face value and instead should be disregarded in light of all the contrary evidence. Rolloff is insufficient when it comes to complex scenarios such as the Uyghur case. I know that it needs to be fixed. But I don't know whether it can be fixed and how. That is the job of geneticists and their programmer assistants.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-62405867871031409322012-09-21T22:58:27.243+03:002012-09-21T22:58:27.243+03:00"Rolloff ... needs to be fixed asap"
... "Rolloff ... needs to be fixed asap" <br /><br />well gee thanks; pray tell me how, Very extensive <br /> simulations in the main paper (ancient admixture,,) <br /> show rolloff to be very well calibrated and robust<br /> at least under simple scenarios, And complex scenarios are hard (for everybody), In the Uyghur <br />the genetic signal and date are especially clear. It's <br />unlikely that the signal is "wrong" but how to interpret itis not so clear, Nick Patterson (Broad)https://www.blogger.com/profile/15606881879148004553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-44352241380554934192012-09-21T21:34:34.520+03:002012-09-21T21:34:34.520+03:00"Turkicized" is a linguistic category. r...<i>"Turkicized" is a linguistic category. rolloff estimates the age of admixture, not the age of arrival of a foreign population.</i><br /><br />Most of the Tarim basin was Turkicized centuries before the Mongol invasion and the Tocharian languages (the most widespread pre-Turkic languages of the Tarim basin) went extinct (again, centuries before the Mongol invasion) as a result of the Turkicization. So it is clear that the genetic impact of the Turkic peoples on the Tarim basin must be mostly from centuries before the Mongol invasion. Also, we know from ancient mtDNA studies that the Tarim basin has exhibited significant Mongoloid admixture since at least the early Bronze Age (the earliest period of the Tarim basin for which we have DNA samples). Hence, it is certain that rolloff is off the track in the Uyghur case.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-34043391074681581742012-09-21T20:56:47.377+03:002012-09-21T20:56:47.377+03:00We know from history that the Tarim basin (=the la...<i>We know from history that the Tarim basin (=the land of the present-day Uyghurs) was Turkicized several centuries before the Mongol invasions.</i><br /><br />"Turkicized" is a linguistic category. rolloff estimates the age of admixture, not the age of arrival of a foreign population.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-80223159261521962192012-09-21T19:44:06.973+03:002012-09-21T19:44:06.973+03:00And, you know the 'real admixture times' h...<i>And, you know the 'real admixture times' how?</i><br /><br />Admixture datings of rolloff are at odds with the times of several historically known admixture events. <br /><br />A clear example is the rolloff dating of the Caucasoid-Mongoloid admixture in Uyghurs to the 13th century (the Mongol invasion era) by Patterson et al. (2012). We know from history that the Tarim basin (=the land of the present-day Uyghurs) was Turkicized several centuries before the Mongol invasions. So in the Uyghur example there is a clear discrepancy between the rolloff result of Patterson et al. (2012) and historical facts. Even Patterson et al. (2012) noted the historical implausibility of their rolloff Caucasoid-Mongoloid admixture dating of Uyghurs and tried to explain it with rolloff's tendency to favor recent dates. Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-68404508202434748312012-09-21T18:26:18.575+03:002012-09-21T18:26:18.575+03:00Rolloff tends to date admixtures to more recent ti...<i>Rolloff tends to date admixtures to more recent times than the real admixture times. It needs to be fixed ASAP.<br /></i><br /><br />And, you know the 'real admixture times' how?Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-89332253483255590182012-09-21T14:27:43.978+03:002012-09-21T14:27:43.978+03:00Rolloff tends to date admixtures to more recent ti...Rolloff tends to date admixtures to more recent times than the real admixture times. It needs to be fixed ASAP.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-60368535973567061422012-09-21T09:31:37.206+03:002012-09-21T09:31:37.206+03:00kons
If the component called north european is the...kons<br />If the component called north european is the original layer then won't it be all of them?<br /><br />Random thought<br /><br />It seems to me there are four main routes into Europe and regardless of the significance or timing along each route the proportions of admixture are likely to have tapered off as you move further from the origin of each.<br /><br />I see the four routes as<br />1) Coastal, med then atlantic<br />2) Danubian<br />3) Northern - steppe level<br />4) Northern - subarctic level<br /><br />In each case there should be a minima and maxima zone based on distance from the origin.<br /><br />One of the interesting things about this is Ireland/Scotland are at the minima of three and a long way from the maxima of the fourth (if we take that as being Finland) whereas the Baltic is similarly at the minima of three but near the maxima of the fourth so i'm wondering if those ancient writers may have been right about the red hair.<br />Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-74268139577581810462012-09-21T04:22:28.295+03:002012-09-21T04:22:28.295+03:00It seems rolloff gets confused by signals from mul...It seems rolloff gets confused by signals from multiple admixture events from similar sources. So if there are different layers of Northern European admixture in Southern Europe, rolloff will focus on the main one, but also use data from the others, and then come up with a skewed age estimate that's too recent for the main event.<br /><br />I hope they fix this issue before more papers are released, because when they start applying rolloff to West and Central Asian population history, they'll shift everything that's happened forward by a couple thousand years.Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-62786782779969482912012-09-21T04:16:48.682+03:002012-09-21T04:16:48.682+03:00So, in layman's terms, what percentage of the ...So, in layman's terms, what percentage of the Greek population contains northern European admixture?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com