tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post6084632496200465836..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Ancient central European mtDNA across time (Brandt, Haak et al. and Bollongino et al.)Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-88571679452760486092015-08-24T01:21:46.727+03:002015-08-24T01:21:46.727+03:00It's hilarious they put H into some catchall c...It's hilarious they put H into some catchall category when it's the only one that matters much for determining where modern europeans actually came from. Since the levels are low in LBK and eastwards then obviously this land migration is nothing to do with it. Of course in the west we have high levels of H very early on so...you know...this study's conclusions are a sham.<br /><br />div13, that link is also hilarious. Concentrating on 'negativity' actually means failing to delude yourself. A big diagnostic criteria for depression is that you look in the mirror and assign yourself an attractiveness rating the same as everyone else does. It is 'normal' to look in the mirror and skip past the fug and assign yourself an 8/10 no matter how disgusting you are.Fiend of 9 worldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17712083368615685458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-15933487308091048282015-02-28T17:17:58.344+02:002015-02-28T17:17:58.344+02:00My brother tested R-Z381 Y-DNA and would love to s...My brother tested R-Z381 Y-DNA and would love to see further testing about Louis XIXMariahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06585811068898564846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-65277898735928297232013-10-17T22:11:09.098+03:002013-10-17T22:11:09.098+03:00Dienekes, I’m surprised you didn’t comment on the ...Dienekes, I’m surprised you didn’t comment on the way they handled mtDNA H in that timeline. (figure 3)<br /><br />What could justify putting H in a category called “Other?”<br /><br />Regardless of it’s origin, H clearly is everywhere in every “Neolithic” period DNA pretty much throughout most of Europe.<br /><br />Even the dotted line that stands for H (as the Other category) makes it pretty obvious. H is already heavily represented in LBK and Cardium<br />ware sites and in the eastern neolithic with Trypillian culture. If you add the dotted line to the neolithic brown line, this chart actually doesn’t do very much in demonstrating any kind of mass migration after the neolithic.<br />Haak himself is on co-author with Brotherton on “Neolithic mitochondrial haplogroup H genomes and the genetic origins of Europeans” paper that came out in April that pretty much calls H the marker of the neolithic and Bell Beaker.<br />Why would they do this? Probably to bump up the EBA which really doesn’t otherwise show much action -- but is supposed to if we keep looking for horses from the steppes. I think this is another case of the Pontic theory skewing representations of what the data actually shows.<br />The really striking thing about what ancient DNA shows in this region is how diverse the mtDNA in Europe was during this whole period. The map itself shows 17 different mt haplotypes. What we DON’T see is a big group of close relatives taking over a continent. Instead we see a lot of different genetic types living together for thousands of years before modern times. LivoniaGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05589404219598229067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-9124709145163498222013-10-17T19:38:21.603+03:002013-10-17T19:38:21.603+03:00Actually this one is more interesting as it gives ...Actually this one is more interesting as it gives an idea of the possible scale.<br /><br />http://www.bartleby.com/86/1602.html<br /><br />(And obviously if over time a village like that sank into the water there wouldn't neccessarily be much sign left that it was ever there.)<br /><br />(Also if there was an agricultural collapse / famine at some point in the neolithic then people who lived on fish were more likely to survive.)Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-54734763461985491742013-10-17T19:31:14.307+03:002013-10-17T19:31:14.307+03:00terryt
"So, presumably, was mostly uninhabit...terryt<br /><br />"So, presumably, was mostly uninhabited."<br /><br />Or not.<br /><br />http://www.nationsonline.org/gallery/Ireland/Crannog-Lake-Dwelling.jpg<br /><br />Although if they were continuously inhabited by neolithic Cajuns then i think that would imply populations native to those areas (big river valleys) ought to have an above-average level of malaria protection?Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-82256621736379501922013-10-17T18:37:26.358+03:002013-10-17T18:37:26.358+03:00Also nice to see that in the BBC, even in the east...Also nice to see that in the BBC, even in the east group in central Germany, the eastern European-related component that is so prominent in the CWC, reaches a low point of almost zero. That is hard to reconcile with a Yamnaya origin of the eastern BBC as some had hypothesised it. I still believe, as I did before, that their R1b was part of a „second“, or rather „third“ neolithic wave that came from Anatolia via the Balkans. Presumably together with the day-length non-responsive barley and the slight K12b-Gedrosia/MDLP-W22-Indo-Iranian autosomal admixture. You see in the distance map, there are close matches in Romania and the western Balkans, where the BBC never spread to.<br /><br />Another observation: Look, already the BAC had a slight presence of the CWC/UC-related component! And the BAC was afaik the earliest culture in central Europe that built graves of a Kurgan-like type.Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-42904568154434010742013-10-17T16:59:45.263+03:002013-10-17T16:59:45.263+03:00Simon_W:
"I remind you of the Maykop culture...Simon_W:<br /><br /><i>"I remind you of the Maykop culture which apparently was the source of the Kurgan customs in the Yamnaya and, apparently also CWC! Or rather it was the transmitter, since the ultimate source of Kurganism may well have lied to the south of the Caucasus."</i><br /><br />That seems plausible. Kurgan burials appear to have originated among tribes of the Leylatepe Culture, in Azerbaijan, and Leylatepe seems related to the expansion of the North Ubaid Culture.Va_Highlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04671547664669092756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-25647772309798036642013-10-17T03:43:45.610+03:002013-10-17T03:43:45.610+03:00"How much of the Po or Rhone (or Nile or Euph..."How much of the Po or Rhone (or Nile or Euphrates) would have been swamp pre-drainage? It might be only a small amount but if was 80% or 90% that might have been a major farmer barrier". <br /><br />A quick look at Wiki: <br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Po_(river)<br /><br />Quote: <br /><br />"Before 1152 the seaward extension of today's delta, about 12 km (7.5 mi), did not exist. The entire region from Ravenna to Chioggia was dense swamps, explaining why the Via Aemilia was constructed between Rimini and Piacenza and did not begin further north". <br /><br />So, presumably, was mostly uninhabited. terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-14883220584223245892013-10-16T05:29:11.547+03:002013-10-16T05:29:11.547+03:00"Why shouldnt boats like that not exist 10 or..."Why shouldnt boats like that not exist 10 or 20K years ago?" <br /><br />The ancestors of at least some of the Australian Aborigines had to have used some sort of boat 50 kya. but it seems that such craft did not appear in the Mediterranean until some 10 kya. It is not necessary to find any actual physical evidence of boats to come to that conclusion. Many islands in the Mediterranean would have been far easier to reach than would it have been to reach Australia. terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-6878020069914617652013-10-16T02:53:02.762+03:002013-10-16T02:53:02.762+03:00terryt
"Any sort of decent wetland is virtua...terryt<br /><br />"Any sort of decent wetland is virtually impassable except by boat."<br /><br />Yes and we're talking about the neolithic when you accept there were boats so i'm not sure what your point is.<br /><br />.<br /><br />"Settlement sites require adequate drainage, otherwise you'd be sleeping in water."<br /><br />Farmers need good drainage sites for their fields. Wetlands foragers living on a little island in a swamp - natural or man-made - don't.<br /><br />.<br /><br />"Perhaps someone knows an hydrologist who can help out?"<br /><br />Yes that would be fascinating. How much of the Po or Rhone (or Nile or Euphrates) would have been swamp pre-drainage? It might be only a small amount but if was 80% or 90% that might have been a major farmer barrier.<br /><br />.<br /><br />@Fanty<br /><br />"Its just like with every other thing from those ages: 99.9999% of everything is rotten and only a fraction of the 0.0001% of the non-rotten things is dugg up the ground."<br /><br />Especially wooden canoes which by definition are likely to continue being used until ... they sink.<br />Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-68851135517618357242013-10-16T02:44:07.550+03:002013-10-16T02:44:07.550+03:00Just to add, if it's true (and maybe it's ...Just to add, if it's true (and maybe it's not) that before farmers built drainage ditches most of the major river valleys were mostly wetlands except in a few naturally well-drained spots then this would influence farmer settlement patterns all over and not just Europe i.e. fertile crescent, nile, wei valley etc.<br /><br />The farmers would either settle on particularly well-drained spots or along the *edge* of the flood plain and gradually nibble inwards.<br /><br />Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-92145024694530738312013-10-16T02:40:31.181+03:002013-10-16T02:40:31.181+03:00@Raimo Kangasniemi
"When it comes to hunter-...@Raimo Kangasniemi<br /><br />"When it comes to hunter-gatherers and wetlands question, the answer is yes, they are good for hunter-gatherers but..."<br /><br />That's what i imagined - high calorie environment for foragers.<br /><br />.<br /><br />"What I mean is that a diet to appear as such a strong signal between populations is a bit odd."<br /><br />The two things might be connected. If wetlands were particularly rich in forager resources then they'd have a higher than average forager population density and therefore more numbers to defend that terriotory. Plus the terrain itself would have defensive advantages - see "Deliverance" or "Southern Comfort" for details.<br /><br />If you were a neolithic farmer in those circumstances would you want to go hunt in the nearby swamp or the nearby hills?<br /><br />It fits the general assumption that foragers survived in pockets of marginal terrain. It's just a conceptual jolt to imagine them potentially living adjacent in the local swamp.<br /><br />.<br /><br />@Fap Tastich<br /><br />"In the Netherlands great finds of a campsite of the Vlaardingeculture has been found, with a large amount of fishbones and waterfowl remains found. also 7 fish-traps were found. Quite intact and not unlike the ones currently used to catch eel."<br /><br />That's what i wonder - wetlands as a major refugium but with most of the settlement evidence underwater.<br /><br />.<br /><br />"Also in the Netherlands a mesolithic canoe has been found. Not state of the art, but usable."<br /><br />Cool.Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-48681352582632961682013-10-16T02:26:53.949+03:002013-10-16T02:26:53.949+03:00My initial reaction: The Brandt, Haak et al. paper...My initial reaction: The Brandt, Haak et al. paper seems highly interesting! The expansion of the CWC/UC markers appears related with the northeast European autosomal component from the Magnus Ducatus Lituaniae project (MDLP)! Their world-22 calculator notabene distinguishes this northeast European component from the mesolithic north-European component which matches the mesolithic foragers from northwestern Spain, and the modern Saami in particular. <br /><br />Also interesting to see the relations of the CWC with west Asian highland populations to the south of the Caucasus confirmed. I remind you of the Maykop culture which apparently was the source of the Kurgan customs in the Yamnaya and, apparently also CWC! Or rather it was the transmitter, since the ultimate source of Kurganism may well have lied to the south of the Caucasus. If you study the map of the West Asian component from the MDLP carefully, you'll note that there's a link from the Caucasus/Maykop area to the Crimean peninsula and from there into central Ukraine. This was probably the main source of the West Asian component in the Proto-Balto-Slavs, because the more eastern wave of West Asian alleles, which came from southern central Asia around the Caspian Sea, was more Gedrosia-like. Or in other words: Bearing influence of the MDLP's „Indo-Iranian component“. (The name is a little misleading.)<br /><br />Whether this West Asian influence in the CWC (and probably also Yamnaya culture) was actually the crucial factor which contributed to its Indo-Europeanization, remains dubious however. Because the Maykop culture overlapped very well with north Caucasian languages, and to me it's rather hard to believe that the local Circassians et al. supplanted an originally IE population! Rather the Caucasus is one of the last strongholds of pre-IE languages, at least in a wide perimeter.<br /><br />As for the second paper, by Bollongino et al.: I see a large temporal gap between the mesolithic foragers and their fishing-foraging relatives from neolithic times. Could it not be the case that the latter were intrusive from the north, having arrived with the slight revival of HG markers in middle neolithic times?Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-13955544943745643032013-10-15T23:34:35.311+03:002013-10-15T23:34:35.311+03:00D, please delete my last comment, I misread the me...D, please delete my last comment, I misread the metalurgy map in my excitement, plus the text was too small for me to read clearly. LOLapostateimpressionshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992369104954433139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-13871509493916357202013-10-15T23:27:56.321+03:002013-10-15T23:27:56.321+03:00Heads up:
The new Brandt, Haak et al. study publi...Heads up:<br /><br />The new Brandt, Haak et al. study published in _Science_ finds that metalurgy diffused from Germany.<br /><br /><br />Most detailed ancient European gene profile announced (Video)<br /><br />http://www.examiner.com/article/most-detailed-ancient-european-gene-profile-announced<br /><br />quote:<br /><br />A collaboration between scientists from the Australian Centre for Ancient DNA (ACAD) at the University of Adelaide, researchers from the University of Mainz, the State Heritage Museum in Halle (Germany), and National Geographic Society's Genographic Project has produced the most detailed ancient European genetic profile ever produced according to an article in the Oct. 10, 2013, edition of the journal Science.<br /><br />The extraction and examination of DNA from 364 prehistoric human skeletons from the Mittelelbe-Saale region of Germany are the most extensive mitochondrial DNA investigation ever attempted and elucidates European ancestry from 7,500 to 3,500 years ago. The DNA represents people from the early Neolithic Era and the Early Bronze Age. The analysis took eight years to complete and correlate.<br /><br />The genetic information was correlated with known l artifacts that are representative of the cultures, people, and cultural developments that are represented by the DNA analysis.<br /><br />[...]<br /><br />Transfer of culture and interbreeding occurred between early Europeans and peoples from Africa and Asia. There was also a huge transfer of DNA and knowledge between ancient Germans and people from Spain, England, Italy, Greece, Russia, and Scandinavia. The African and Asian influence had been the accepted and preferential route of culture transfer prior to this new analysis.<br /><br />metalurgy diffusion map:<br /><br />http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_content_width/hash/97/ad/97ada4f4af56d2171cf781ae2b2e8b40.pngapostateimpressionshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992369104954433139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-76128422245908429022013-10-15T11:44:28.782+03:002013-10-15T11:44:28.782+03:00Thats a freaking hollow tree thingy.
Neanderthals ...Thats a freaking hollow tree thingy.<br />Neanderthals build nore advanded things (not boats) than that.<br /><br />Why shouldnt boats like that not exist 10 or 20K years ago? Its just like with every other thing from those ages: 99.9999% of everything is rotten and only a fraction of the 0.0001% of the non-rotten things is dugg up the ground.Fantyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07969348276219179258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-83321808217102928492013-10-15T05:51:39.768+03:002013-10-15T05:51:39.768+03:00"When it comes to hunter-gatherers and wetlan..."When it comes to hunter-gatherers and wetlands question, the answer is yes, they are good for hunter-gatherers" <br /><br />I don't think so, unless there is a ceretain amount of open water in the wetland and those hunter-gatherers have boats. <br /><br />"Also in the Netherlands a mesolithic canoe has been found". <br /><br />The age given in the paper: <br /><br />"we now know that the boat must have been sometime between 8040 BC and 7510 years BC" <br /><br />That is certainly after humans had managed to reach the islands in the Mediterranean. That fits exactly what I wrote: 'just before the Neolithic'. <br /><br />"i'm wondering what percentage of valley farmland needs drainage ditchs to not be swamp" <br /><br />Any sort of decent wetland is virtually impassable except by boat. It is sometimes possible to wade some of it if you're prepared to put up with water up to your chest for long periods. <br /><br />"do settlement sites map onto good drainage sites?" <br /><br />Settlement sites require adequate drainage, otherwise you'd be sleeping in water. <br /><br />"how much of the Po or Rhone valleys would be swamp without drainage ditchs" <br /><br />I'm not familiar with those regions specifically. Perhaps someone knows an hydrologist who can help out? terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-84227469284495828552013-10-14T22:12:40.402+03:002013-10-14T22:12:40.402+03:00"Like Atlantis they'd be buried under sil..."Like Atlantis they'd be buried under silt at the bottom of a Portuguese river."<br /><br />In the Netherlands great finds of a campsite of the Vlaardingeculture has been found, with a large amount of fishbones and waterfowl remains found. also 7 fish-traps were found. Quite intact and not unlike the ones currently used to catch eel.<br /><br />http://www.rmo.nl/tijdbalk/afb/_350/001.jpg<br /><br />" I am sure that wetlands were absolutely useless for human habitation until just before the Neolithic, with the invention of efficient canoes. "<br /><br />Also in the Netherlands a mesolithic canoe has been found. Not state of the art, but usable.<br /><br />http://www.bootvanpesse.com/<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07626246997334247742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-56282680565164321912013-10-14T09:20:06.498+03:002013-10-14T09:20:06.498+03:00@Gail
I am old enough to have seen what the force...@Gail<br /><br />I am old enough to have seen what the force of personality of a few key researchers can do to our perceptions of facts. Often these guys have to die before alternative views of the data can emerge, their strangleholds are so strong. It has happened before even in this field when antimigrationism held the upper hand. Neanderthal interbreeding. Clovis is another case. I prefer to look at the actual facts and draw my own opinions. Which incidentally do, and have, changed, if the facts convince me otherwise. <br /><br />This paper is just a rehash of stuff I previously found unconvincing. Nothing much here is new. It is just re-presented in an integrated form. Sloppily, mathematically speaking.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11000684388615334278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-25617106714302457692013-10-14T05:19:16.882+03:002013-10-14T05:19:16.882+03:00@terryt
"Any region with any sort of good na...@terryt<br /><br />"Any region with any sort of good natural drainage would not be a wetland, by definition."<br /><br />Yeah, that's what I said - but if they *didn't* have good natural drainage they they would be wetlands and so i'm wondering what percentage of valley farmland needs drainage ditchs to not be swamp e.g. how much of the Po or Rhone valleys would be swamp without drainage ditchs and do settlement sites map onto good drainage sites?<br /><br />I don't know - maybe not a lot, maybe a lot.<br /><br />.<br /><br />"I am sure that wetlands were absolutely useless for human habitation until just before the Neolithic, with the invention of efficient canoes."<br /><br />Yeah but we are talking about the neolithic so...<br />Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-19574232980814404952013-10-14T05:02:09.476+03:002013-10-14T05:02:09.476+03:00"It seems that no amount of data will convinc..."It seems that no amount of data will convince you that your anti-migration position might simply be wrong."<br /><br />http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/genes-predispose-some-people-to-focus-on-the-negative.html<br /><br />Genes Predispose Some People to Focus on the Negative<br /><br />"The gene in question is the ADRA2b deletion variant, which influences the hormone and neurotransmitter norepinephrine. Previously found to play a role in the formation of emotional memories, the new study shows that the ADRA2b deletion variant also plays a role in real-time perception."dux.iehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10092230072050546370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-17210014106140649282013-10-14T03:12:14.559+03:002013-10-14T03:12:14.559+03:00When it comes to hunter-gatherers and wetlands que...When it comes to hunter-gatherers and wetlands question, the answer is yes, they are good for hunter-gatherers but...<br /><br />What I find a bit odd is that as some women moved from hunter-gatherers to agriculturalists, if this would have been done in amicable circumstances you would expect some amount of trade between them and trade in food which we often find elsewhere in similar circumstances. So, one would expect the agriculturalists especially to seek out fish through trade and to also acquire extra food through hunting and fishing themselves, as the agricultural lifestyle would have been precarious and in need of suplementary food sources when harvest failed. What I mean is that a diet to appear as such a strong signal between populations is a bit odd.Raimo Kangasniemihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07317328563337885584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-4905088529228666772013-10-13T09:29:41.547+03:002013-10-13T09:29:41.547+03:00"Thus, the assumption that maternal and pater..."Thus, the assumption that maternal and paternal patterns converge goes again without challenge. Are we that sure of the interchangeability of men and women when it comes to migration and survival?" <br /><br />Agreed. A totally unjustifiable assumption. That same assumption has led to confusion around the Austronesian expansion in island SE Asia for most people as well. <br /><br />"Some of you guys are really hardcore. Still holding out no matter what". <br /><br />Yes. Although I agree with Annie that the paper 'is based on almost no data for the early years' that data is the best we currently have. In many fields conclusions based on even less data have subsequently been shown correct though. <br /><br />"I worked on a valley farm many years ago and without drainage ditches everywhere it would have been wetlands. I wonder if a lot of river valleys back then would have been the same except in certain areas with particularly good natural drainage". <br /><br />Any region with any sort of good natural drainage would not be a wetland, by definition. I am sure that wetlands were absolutely useless for human habitation until just before the Neolithic, with the invention of efficient canoes. terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-25526119831233979072013-10-13T08:21:16.056+03:002013-10-13T08:21:16.056+03:00If you eat oats in the rain there will be a strong...If you eat oats in the rain there will be a strong selection for less pigmented skin. Regardless of where the less pigmentation allelles arose. (high carbo diets deplete Vitamin D). Meat eating hunters don't have this strong selection pressure. The Tasmanian Aboriginals were very dark.meikahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17410659353169461214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-83469402161432488212013-10-13T00:28:14.216+03:002013-10-13T00:28:14.216+03:00[i]Annie Mouse said...I have no idea how this pape...[i]Annie Mouse said...I have no idea how this paper got published.<br />[/i]<br /><br />For the last 4 years every study of ancient DNA has shown a consistent story of repeated migrations, yet you find a way to dismiss every one of those studies. It seems that no amount of data will convince you that your anti-migration position might simply be wrong.GailThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00971924422676678998noreply@blogger.com