tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post5993314117315441183..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Facial shape preference in heterosexual and homosexual peopleDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-78954946669005988612009-10-27T14:36:50.595+02:002009-10-27T14:36:50.595+02:00Now, asking questions about the origins of lesbian...<i>Now, asking questions about the origins of lesbian and gay male sexuality in the context you have provided presumes that these "need" to be explained - my question then is, whos aaid it had to? You? </i><br /><br />Of course they "need" to be explained. Everything needs to be explained. <br /><br /><i> What if somebody had started a discussion regarding the role that Christian Eastern Orthodox religious traditions had in facilitiating the mass murders at Srebrenica in Bosnia in 1995?</i><br /><br />Irrelevant. Also, it takes 30" to start a blog, so discuss whatever you want to discuss.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-62421561052571769922009-10-27T06:19:15.577+02:002009-10-27T06:19:15.577+02:00Dienekes, I was not surprised by your recent react...Dienekes, I was not surprised by your recent reactionary statements about lesbians and gay men. I do recall your rant some time ago regarding Macedonia. I recall that day leaving and then returning to the Web page because I couldn't believe what I was reading. Now, asking questions about the origins of lesbian and gay male sexuality in the context you have provided presumes that these "need" to be explained - my question then is, whos aaid it had to? You? <br /><br />Your line of inqury and its implications can be explained by an example from another historical context. What if somebody had started a discussion regarding the role that Christian Eastern Orthodox religious traditions had in facilitiating the mass murders at Srebrenica in Bosnia in 1995?formerjerseyboyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12359486237718341127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-20732679155893076782009-10-25T01:24:22.446+03:002009-10-25T01:24:22.446+03:00It's funny how folks from the ideological Left...<i>It's funny how folks from the ideological Left like to assert that genes don't matter - culture is everything - when it comes to average outcomes among various human populations, but when it comes to determining sexual orientation everything revolves the almighty gene(s)!</i><br /><br />That is a very astute observation. I would like to state, however, that whether homosexuality is genetic or not is beside the point. If I want to hire someone smart, I don't really care if he got his IQ from his parents' genes or from a favorable environment. Nor does a blind man care if he got blindness from his parents or from some accident. The issue is interesting from an evolutionary perspective, but social attitudes towards homosexuality are not dependent on whether or not it is genetic in origin.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-65489491402943326212009-10-25T00:59:26.813+03:002009-10-25T00:59:26.813+03:00To address Mathilda's comment about lesbian br...To address Mathilda's comment about lesbian brains, I imagine that brain growth in lesbians, as in other people is determined by both their genes and their early childhood environments. The brain is not a static organ, but changes constantly, growing rapidly during adolescence. Even in adults, studies of London cabbies have shown that the hippocampus can grow rapidly at the expense of other parts of the brain (as cab drivers have to memorize all the labyrinthine streets of London to obtain their licenses).Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03526891176515806231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-50535756260681921342009-10-25T00:54:44.128+03:002009-10-25T00:54:44.128+03:00I'm a "gay" male, and I think Dienek...I'm a "gay" male, and I think Dienekes is correct about pretty much all of his assertions. Many of the gay men and women I have known (myself excluded) have experienced early sexual experiences or sexual trauma. And I myself had extremely unhealthy emotional relationships with both of my divorced parents (broken home at the tender age of 1 yo), and I think that goes a long way in explaining my own pscho-sexuality.<br /><br />It's funny how folks from the ideological Left like to assert that genes don't matter - culture is everything - when it comes to average outcomes among various human populations, but when it comes to determining sexual orientation everything revolves the almighty gene(s)!Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03526891176515806231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-2589383741648069372009-10-24T18:35:12.580+03:002009-10-24T18:35:12.580+03:00"Homosexual behavior in women, however, is us..."Homosexual behavior in women, however, is usually the outcome of either psychological trauma or plainness-of-appearance"<br /><br />Which totally fails to address why lesbians have a more masculine type of brain than average women and some physical difference too (see other comments).<br /><br />I'd very strongly disagree with the 'usually' you stuck in there- I think 'occassionally' would be more accurate. <br /><br />Percieved plainess among lesbians is more a result of opting out of mainstream ideals of beauty that appeal to men (which would be pointless). The ones I've known socially are just ragingly unfeminine and look a bit rough because of the lack of a make up.mathildahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06682429587184048584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-63970922633002678272009-10-22T15:28:38.388+03:002009-10-22T15:28:38.388+03:00By traditional I presume you mean a mother and a f...By traditional I presume you mean a mother and a father who live happily ever after together, raising their children in an atmosphere of perfect harmony. <br /><br />Well yes, but I have actually never met a family like this. Every family is weird in its own way. Its the ones that look perfect that are the most frightening. Of the two I can think of that looked perfect, both involved very serious abuse that the entire family hid to the very best of their abilities. <br /><br />These days about 1/3 of kids are living in a 1 parent home by the time they start school. And IMO happily divorced parents are preferable to married warfare. <br /><br />Its better that children learn that life and families do not fit into a single model at the start, and learn tolerance for the differences of others, and discard a sense of entitlement to a restrictive "perfect" life. Otherwise they are likely to be disappointed, or unpleasant.<br /><br />I know a non-feminized gay man who helped two lesbian friends of his have a son. Every time I see him he has new photos and he is so proud of his son. He sees his son regularly and is helping him grow.<br /><br />Another guy I know has a gay brother who did this and he visibly seethes with rage at the thought of his brother's children being forced into his extended family life. If he would only relax and accept them and their unusual families, it would be better for the children. The problem is not that his brother is gay, or that some of the mothers are. The damage is being done by the straight brothers intolerance. Had his brother had lots of marriages with children the straight brother would not be enraged.<br /><br />If a family is prepared to put the welfare of their children first and love them, then that is what the key in parenting a child. Not the false illusion of a traditional family life that gives them no preparation for reality. Or worse, causes them to damage others with their intolerance.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11000684388615334278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-4142548905886737222009-10-22T14:33:24.070+03:002009-10-22T14:33:24.070+03:00If there is going to be a mental health requiremen...<i>If there is going to be a mental health requirement for adoption/fostering/parenting it should apply to heterosexual couples too.</i><br /><br />The mental health stuff is related to the issue of whether or not female homosexuals have a history of trauma, not to the issue of whether or not they should adopt children. In my opinion they should not adopt children irrespective of whether they have mental health issues or not, as children should be raised in traditional environments.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-90176752952512828342009-10-22T07:42:37.951+03:002009-10-22T07:42:37.951+03:00All this mental health stuff is just a circular ar...All this mental health stuff is just a circular argument Dienekes. Every marginalized community has high drug and mental health problems. Are you also going to argue that Australian aborigines, North American Indians etc should not be allowed to have kids too? Are these people somehow morally deficient for the high rates of these illnesses in their communities?<br /><br />If there is going to be a mental health requirement for adoption/fostering/parenting it should apply to heterosexual couples too.<br /><br />Personally I would very much rather my children were straight. It is a much easier life, and I want grandchildren. But if they turn out to be gay I am not going to regret bearing them. If I knew my future child would be gay it would have no impact on my decision to have that child.<br /><br />Anyhow. It could be argued that bisexually is the most moral sexual orientation. The person inside is more important than the flesh that they wear. This is a purity of morality however that is more theoretical than practical for most of us. :)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11000684388615334278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-6243106521210467272009-10-22T03:16:36.764+03:002009-10-22T03:16:36.764+03:00I vaguely recall one study found a quarter of adul...I vaguely recall one study found a quarter of adults who as children had been raised by same-sex parents described themselves as homosexual or bisexual.argiedudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11512295756932222613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-56959918781807234612009-10-20T21:25:33.963+03:002009-10-20T21:25:33.963+03:00A good random population sample from the Californi...A good random population sample from the California Health Survey. <br /><br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2734538/?tool=pubmed<br /><br />This study builds upon previous epidemiological studies that have shown higher prevalences of AOD and MH disorders among sexual minority populations [7,8,11,13,15]; we extend these findings by showing that treatment utilization for these disorders varies by both gender and sexual orientation. The study findings are strengthened by the use of a population-based sample and a theoretically guided model of health services utilization. In the broader literature it is well known that health services utilization is greater among women generally. Here we have shown that minority sexual orientation is also an important explanatory variable in understanding treatment seeking among women. Lesbians and bisexual women appear to be approximately twice as likely as heterosexual women to report having received recent treatment for mental health or substance use disorders, after controlling for the presence of either type of disorder and other predisposing and enabling characteristics. <b>Indeed, more than half of the lesbians and bisexual women in the study indicated that they had received services in the past year for mental health or substance use-related problems.</b>Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-30937579509866809492009-10-20T20:33:39.890+03:002009-10-20T20:33:39.890+03:00morphing them [faces] in the direction of the male...<i>morphing them [faces] in the direction of the male (or female) average</i><br /><br />Surely, then, the results are stereotypes and not true faces. Which might well skew (or screw) the results.<br /><br />Anyway, what I did want to point out -- and then I, at least, will leave this conversation -- is the inbuilt bias in any such sampling of gays and lesbians, to wit, self-selection. <br /><br />The single “nonheterosexual” group <i> inevitably includes not only individuals with a collective sexual orientation identity, but also those who regard their sexuality in purely personal terms. Indeed, two leading researchers in this area estimated that only half of the individuals who report sexual contact with a same-sex adult actually identify as lesbian, gay, or bisexual. Consistent with this observation, the proportion of adults who identified as gay, lesbian, or bisexual in a 2000 national probability sample was roughly the same as the proportion who reported same-sex behavior but identified as heterosexual.</i>*<br /><br />A can of statistical worms, Dienekes. Stick to DNA, which has enough stat problems of its own.<br /><br />* article with references, <a rel="nofollow"> href= "http://tinyurl.com/ylbqk72"> Sexual Orientation and Mental Health</a>, Clinical Psychology, April 2007.Judith Weingartenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683483030413488309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-23812295500891894972009-10-20T19:44:29.992+03:002009-10-20T19:44:29.992+03:00Masculine, feminine is up to the view of the indiv...<i>Masculine, feminine is up to the view of the individual.</i><br /><br />That is incorrect. Facial traits are sexually dimorphic in humans, and one can manipulate faces to make them more (or less) feminine (or masculine) by morphing them in the direction of the male (or female) average. No subjective assessments of femininity/masulinity are needed.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-72747884637322630772009-10-20T19:39:40.414+03:002009-10-20T19:39:40.414+03:00Arch Psychiatr Nurs. 2009 Aug;23(4):289-97. Epub 2...Arch Psychiatr Nurs. 2009 Aug;23(4):289-97. Epub 2009 Jan 20. Links<br />Adult attachment style dimensions in women who have gay or bisexual fathers.<br /><br />Sirota T.<br />Department of Behavioral Sciences, Community and Health Systems, College of Nursing, Seton Hall University, South Orange, NJ 07079, USA. sirotath@shu.edu<br />This study explored possible differences in adult attachment style dimensions between women with gay or bisexual fathers (n = 68) and women with heterosexual fathers (n = 68) using a revised version of the Adult Attachment Scale (Collins & Read, 1990b). Data analysis revealed highly significant differences between groups on all three adult attachment dimensions. <b>Women with gay or bisexual fathers were significantly less comfortable with closeness and intimacy (t = 5.264, P = .0001), less able to trust and depend on others (t = 6.621, P = .0001), and experienced more anxiety in relationships (t = 4.368, P = .0001) than women with heterosexual fathers</b>. Theoretical and methodological issues, conclusions, and implications related to the findings are discussed.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-2548590334132873132009-10-20T19:31:57.433+03:002009-10-20T19:31:57.433+03:00You did just imply that any gay people who adopt c...<i>You did just imply that any gay people who adopt children will be 'experimenting' with them. </i><br /><br />Society has never before given children to be raised by same-sex couples, and I see no reason to experiment with children by starting to do so now, in the interest of some vague "human rights".<br /><br /><br /><i>So it's not me having a fit...rather, it's me (and others) being disgusted by your extreme homophobia. </i><br /><br />Well, I and the other 89% of Greeks who disagree with gay adoption are homophobes. Point taken.<br /><br /><i>The acceptance rate for interracial marriage and adoption was once lower than the stat you provide...as was the women's suffrage.</i><br /><br />Irrelevant.<br /><br /><i>Being a repressive bigot is not something to be proud of.<br /></i><br /><br />Insult away.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-84953209790184396512009-10-20T16:11:55.101+03:002009-10-20T16:11:55.101+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.tnprimatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118363057769996859noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-1581019100263532782009-10-20T14:58:35.479+03:002009-10-20T14:58:35.479+03:00You do realize that there are many children around...<i>You do realize that there are many children around the world who need a good home...</i><br /><br />I don't consider experimentation with children to be equivalent to a "good home".<br /><br /><i> From reading your previous posts I see that's because you think we're a bunch of immoral pedos.</i><br /><br />You're having a fit.<br /><br /><br /><i>Oh, and gay adoption will, eventually, come to Greece. Over the past decade there have been many advances in human rights in Greece, despite bigots like you trying to stop them. Homosexuality is becoming more widely accepted there.</i><br /><br />There is no internationally recognized "human right" to gay adoption. And, with an 11% acceptance rate for it, there is no democratic way in which such a "right" could be established in Greek law.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-44956988691086545442009-10-20T13:25:00.557+03:002009-10-20T13:25:00.557+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.tnprimatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118363057769996859noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-75885291106925313282009-10-20T13:23:10.563+03:002009-10-20T13:23:10.563+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.tnprimatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118363057769996859noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-33315164222674355702009-10-20T12:01:20.065+03:002009-10-20T12:01:20.065+03:00When dealing with things like homosexuality it is ...When dealing with things like homosexuality it is better to actually meet the men and women who are homosexual and work it out yourself. Not really interested in psychobabble as per this report. Homo men prefer masculine male faces instead of feminine male faces? Who says what is masculine or feminine in a man's face? It makes me shudder to think what the hetero men thought were masculine or feminine in other men. If there was a difference with the homos then the heteros seem to have chosen femme male faces. What does that say about hetero men?<br /><br />Look this report shows how poor Psychology is for hard quantitative facts and how subjective are its assessments. Masculine, feminine is up to the view of the individual. What I think is a masculine face in a woman may not agree with anyone else. It is like the almost racist classing of NW European women as masculine compared with Southern European woman. As to obesity, there are many a fat Southern Euro Mamma compared with other Europeans barring some Eastern Europeans. What is considered buxom in one group may be grossly obese in another. Subjective tags are not the way to judge any groups whether heterosexual or homosexual or something in between.<br /><br />I live in a small town where people's sexual preferences are easily noted. You can run but you can't hide in my town. The odd thing about the homosexual men and women is that they tend to have more children than the men and women who are heterosexual. Some of these homosexuals must be overcoming there childhood sexual abuse or whatever fanciful explanation there exists for choosing a partner of the same sex for sex!<br /><br />Stick to genetics, at least the studies are based on mostly reliable facts that can be retested by others. The main problem with genetic studies is the poor interpretation, discussion of the genetic facts. That requires more nous than the simple ability to use multiplex PCRs or doing genetic testing which any Lab assistant can do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-67404793419440602362009-10-20T10:13:58.661+03:002009-10-20T10:13:58.661+03:00So, according to your idea there shouldn't be ...<i>So, according to your idea there shouldn't be many, if any, femme lesbians.</i><br /><br />That doesn't logically follow. The article I posted showed that a subset of female homosexuals are masculinized and have a high WHR, which are correlates of unattractiveness in women. This certainly does not mean that "femme" female homosexuals are attractive or don't have a history of abuse.<br /><br /><i>You also didn't highlight the sentence before the bolded portion stating that "Butch and femme lesbians did not differ from heterosexual women on sex role personality traits, depressive symptomology, eating disorders, or body dissatisfaction." That directly contradicts some of your previous points.</i><br /><br />I don't see what previous statements it contradicts. Many people with a history of psychological trauma are psychologically sound today. That is the whole point, that some female homosexuals avoid male-female intercourse because it is unpleasant to them due to their life history. Someone who has a fear of flying experiences high anxiety when they are flying, not when they avoid flying and have organized their life so that they don't have to.<br /><br />By the way, the evidence regarding the psychological well-being of female homosexuals is not clear-cut.<br /><br /> J Homosex. 2008;54(3):280-92.Links<br />A clinical comparison of lesbian and heterosexual women in a psychiatric outpatient clinic.<br /><br />Crothers L, Haller E, Benton C, Haag S.<br />Pacific Graduate School of Psychology, USA.<br /><b>Previous research has reported that when compared to heterosexual women, lesbians may use alcohol and illicit substances to a greater degree and may experience greater psychiatric symptomatology</b>. This study sought to describe any differences in clinical diagnoses, familial histories, and substance usage between lesbian and heterosexual women in a psychiatric outpatient clinic. A chart review was conducted and a sample of 455 heterosexuals and 75 lesbians was obtained. Data, where available, included demographic information, clinical diagnoses, time in treatment, sexual orientation, past and present substance use, and familial substance abuse and psychiatric history. Lesbians were found to have greater past illicit substance use but less current use. No significant differences were found for alcohol use. Similarly, no significant differences in clinical diagnoses were found. Significant differences were found among families. <b>Family members of lesbians had greater substance use and psychiatric histories. These findings both support and dispute some previous research and suggest areas for future researchers to explore</b>.<br /><br /><i> Though I'l point out that the last sentence says "Sexual orientation differences in sexual victimization were greater among men than among women...which contrasts with your original argument. </i><br /><br />Faulty logic. I never made an argument about the effects of victimization on the expression of male homosexuality.<br /><br /><i>you seem to be against gay people being foster parents or adopting</i><br /><br />I certainly am, and I hope that this kind of innovation never comes to Greece.<br /><br /><i> and seem to think it's a bad thing to have a gay child</i><br /><br />It's one of those things that happen. It is certainly unpleasant for many parents who often have children with the goal in mind of leaving descendants.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-69779252563551925162009-10-20T02:17:55.557+03:002009-10-20T02:17:55.557+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.tnprimatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118363057769996859noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-2350356634758929392009-10-20T01:34:01.401+03:002009-10-20T01:34:01.401+03:00More:
Victimization Over the Life Span: A Compari...More:<br /><br />Victimization Over the Life Span: A Comparison of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Heterosexual Siblings.<br />Balsam, Kimberly F.; Rothblum, Esther D.; Beauchaine, Theodore P.<br />Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology. Vol 73(3), Jun 2005, 477-487.<br />Abstract<br />Lifetime victimization was examined in a primarily European American sample that comprised 557 lesbian/gay, 163 bisexual, and 525 heterosexual adults. Lesbian, gay, and bisexual (LGB) participants were recruited via LGB e-mail lists, periodicals, and organizations; these participants recruited 1 or more siblings for participation in the study (81% heterosexual, 19% LGB). In hierarchical linear modeling analyses,<b> sexual orientation was a significant predictor of most of the victimization variables. Compared with heterosexual participants, LGB participants reported more childhood psychological and physical abuse by parents or caretakers, more childhood sexual abuse, more partner psychological and physical victimization in adulthood, and more sexual assault experiences in adulthood</b>. Sexual orientation differences in sexual victimization were greater among men than among women.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-22806800493748636212009-10-20T01:29:52.046+03:002009-10-20T01:29:52.046+03:00One more correlate of attractiveness
Lesbian erot...One more correlate of attractiveness<br /><br />Lesbian erotic role identification: Behavioral, morphological, and hormonal correlates.<br />Singh, Devendra; Vidaurri, Melody; Zambarano, Robert J.; Dabbs Jr., James M.<br />Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. Vol 76(6), Jun 1999, 1035-1049.<br />Abstract<br />Lesbian scholars hotly debate the validity of "butch" and "femme" erotic roles. Although some dismiss them as social constructs, others maintain they are natural expressions of lesbian sexuality. The authors compared self-described butch and femme lesbians on gender-discriminating behavioral, morphological, and hormonal measures. Butch and femme lesbians did not differ from heterosexual women on sex role personality traits, depressive symptomology, eating disorders, or body dissatisfaction. <b>Butch lesbians, however, recalled more childhood gender-atypical behavior and had higher waist-to-hip ratios, higher saliva testosterone levels, and less desire to give birth</b>. These findings support the validity of butch–femme classification and suggest that butch lesbians are more male-typical compared to femme lesbians. The butch-femme classification may reflect a within-group difference caused by differential exposure to prenatal androgens. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2009 APA, all rights reserved)Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-26932541802516251852009-10-20T00:32:52.488+03:002009-10-20T00:32:52.488+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.tnprimatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118363057769996859noreply@blogger.com