tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post5248731593822678347..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Kennewick Man was a Native AmericanDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-17550241042763647162015-12-07T09:03:41.481+02:002015-12-07T09:03:41.481+02:00So, what's the think who can make you believe ...So, what's the think who can make you believe about Human Genealogy? An old "Racial" concept like Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid, Australoid and Khousanid? Or another else?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17782704383261192202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-6583675916311792562015-12-07T08:48:22.200+02:002015-12-07T08:48:22.200+02:00Hector, Mongols are an East Eurasians, actually an...Hector, Mongols are an East Eurasians, actually an Old East Asians. It shows with mostly a Mongolian men have an "original" Y Hg C3* M217, descendant of Y Hg C* M130 and mtDNA Hg CZ, C, Z and G (M Type) but a modern Mongolian today have around 6% - 17% a European and a Middle Eastern aDNA. They're got a Western Eurasians aDNA from a Silk Road and then intermarriage with a Western and Eastern Eurasian People.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17782704383261192202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-77977954175602032942015-12-07T08:36:54.758+02:002015-12-07T08:36:54.758+02:00Dear Srivastan, I'm Adrian from Indonesia and ...Dear Srivastan, I'm Adrian from Indonesia and I want to help you furthermore. I have a questions: Are your cousins tested his DNA to The Genographic Project Geno 2,0 NG or another Human Genealogy company like Family Tree DNA, 23andMe, or another else? Do you lives in Northern Indian like Kashmir or Hindukush Mountain? Generally, a Northwest Indian have a Y Hg P, R1a, R2, l* and even J* + mtDNA Macrohaplogroup N and R. But a South Indian have more mtDNA Macrohaplogroup (around 68% - 70%) - M* like M2, M3,...M6, etc and a Y Hg F*, H*, J*, K*, L* and even O2a* and O3*. And if i correct, a Veddoid men have a rare Y Hg C* M130 and C5*, Hg H*, and (probably) L*. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17782704383261192202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-30419369430490384582015-12-07T08:16:13.868+02:002015-12-07T08:16:13.868+02:00Hector, although a Y Chromosome Hg Q isn't a W...Hector, although a Y Chromosome Hg Q isn't a West Eurasian Y marker, you can't denied when a Y Hg Q and R (Western Eurasian Marker) have a common ancestor a Y Hg P - M45 or Y Hg K2b2. A Parental ancestors of a East Asian (Y Hg O), Native American (Y Hg Q), European (Y Hg R) share a common ancestors: a Y Hg K2* M526. So, whathever do you like it or not, technically a Chinese and Malay men, a Native American men, majority European men and a Northern Indian / IndoAryan men in Kashmir and Hindukush Mountain quite similar to each other. See Wikipedia, ISOGG, Family Tree TDNA, etc.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17782704383261192202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-41945462241770621032015-08-23T16:33:02.864+03:002015-08-23T16:33:02.864+03:00Hector, anybody can make up any BS they want with ...Hector, anybody can make up any BS they want with autosomals. You can unscramble an egg any way you want so to speak. <br /><br />EDAR is not the end all of east vs west and some in the west have it as well, but things like sundadonty in kennewick man puts him into a whole different continuum than 99.9% of what people call native americans. Little details like how many teeth you have go back millions of years and are not some little hiccup you can poopoo away. <br /><br />Fiend of 9 worldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17712083368615685458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-37632357296108250622015-08-14T02:49:43.878+03:002015-08-14T02:49:43.878+03:00"the root of the division between East and We..."the root of the division between East and West Eurasians(a fictitious division anyway)". <br /><br />I have always regarded the boundary between East and West Eurasia to be the Hindu-Kush/Altai mountain axis. To the east people tend to look 'Mongoloid', to the east 'White'. Around the boundary they are mixed, which make sense. <br /><br />"often confusing it with 'East Asians' with the definitive Mongoloid phenotype". <br /><br />That's because most East Eurasians tend to look Mongoloid. Through much of it anyway. Southeast Asia is a little different. Have you seen this: <br /><br />http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/140819/ncomms5689/full/ncomms5689.html<br /><br />It's the best analysis I've yet seen of the late genetic history of the southern portion of East Asia. It shows a deep split between Philippine Negrito and New Guinea populations, but unfortunately does not include Australian Aborigines. terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-52420360121334720492015-08-14T00:37:23.478+03:002015-08-14T00:37:23.478+03:00Hector, I think your idea of differences between E...Hector, I think your idea of differences between East and West Eurasians is not closely related to reality. For example: <br /><br />"Both Ust-Ishim and Oase now appear to be K2a, the latter with a particular shift toward East Eurasians(or even East Asians) in overall genetics and Oase was found in Europe". <br /><br />Thanks for that information. I did not know Oase's Y-DNA. But you find that surprising? Why? K2a is indisputably East Eurasian and so it is obvious that Oase would be shifted in that direction. K2a is an early branch within the NO clade and so almost certainly indicates an early movement west through Central Asia from East Eurasia. Certainly there was considerable movement both east and west through Central Asia during much of human history. Far more than occurred through South Asia. But in effect both Ust-Ishim and Oase are 'East Eurasian' in origin although not actually living there. And both are earlier than the EDAR370A mutation and are unlikely to have been Mongoloid-looking (in spite of your views on that mutation). <br /><br />"Igmayka is comically claiming it(incredibly he even claims NO and the whole K clade as West Eurasian but wait that was your claim too. LOL)". <br /><br />Where did I ever claim either NO or K to be West Eurasian? I presume you are getting confused there. terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-21196181057369983652015-08-12T03:11:09.129+03:002015-08-12T03:11:09.129+03:00TerryT : Once again I really do not want to be bot...TerryT : Once again I really do not want to be bothered with the native view that EDAR solely or even in the main represents the Mongoloid phenotype. Just ask population geneticists why. But this actually is beside the point. Even if it does you have a hilarious notion of the division between East and West Eurasians.<br /><br />You have an unrealistically broad definition of "West Eurasians" and an unrealistically narrow definition of "East Eurasians", often confusing it with "East Asians" with the definitive Mongoloid phenotype. Your definition of the former is even paraphyletic; you want to include just about everthing that becomes convenient to you.<br /><br />Both Ust-Ishim and Oase now appear to be K2a, the latter with a particular shift toward East Eurasians(or even East Asians) in overall genetics and Oase was found in Europe. But of course Oase lacks EDAR but that does not make him "West Eurasian".<br /><br />You make far too liberal generalizations to suit your agenda. Such as assuming West Eurasian genetic continuity in Central Asia. Last year I spent a lot of time explaining basic uniparental phylogenetic principles but that was way beyond your head and quite frankly you don't know who I am, what are my academic credentials etc. and think very lowly of me. The feeling is mutual and I don't see any possibility of productive discussion between us.<br /><br />But thanks for the paper. I am now convinced that some Q1b's may not be of Turkic origin and pre-historical Q1b's found in Western China may have had Indo-European intermediate carriers. But the paper is Russian with well known agenda and one should read it with a grain of salt. Even if Q1b is "West Eurasian"(it probably isn't) it is a long way to go from there to claiming Q1 or Q is West Eurasian because it is not even certain R is West Eurasian and R and Q together DEFINITELY are not West Eurasian if you have to go back at the root of the division between East and West Eurasians(a fictitious division anyway).<br /><br />One last note is on these DNA testing companies. You cannot rely too heavily on their data. Enormous sampling biases. If you go to YFull tree you will see that N or even C2 can be made "European". In fact Igmayka is comically claiming it(incredibly he even claims NO and the whole K clade as West Eurasian but wait that was your claim too. LOL).Hectorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12971694159010797162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-70372343815693437432015-08-08T08:43:07.670+03:002015-08-08T08:43:07.670+03:00Sorry for a third post but I found this:
http://...Sorry for a third post but I found this: <br /><br />http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCEQFjABahUKEwj59KHP3pjHAhWnxqYKHS3lATQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Frjgg.molgen.org%2Findex.php%2FRJGGRE%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2F153%2F176&ei=qpHFVfl3p42bBa3Kh6AD&usg=AFQjCNFwdEZr7QHd4eWVHlA3Xzgz_q7QBg&sig2=8NQUmxLq0mNPyLmg10132A&bvm=bv.99804247,d.dGY<br /><br />Unequivocal. Q1b1a1a-Y2220 is almost entirely 'Jewish' with Q1b1a1a1 Ashkenazi and Q1b1a1a2 Jews from North Africa. The split dated at 4000 years. Of course this sort of dating is unreliable but is certainly too early to be from Turkic people. Q1b1b2a-L301 is centred on southwest Persia and Arabia, especially in the 'Marsh Arabs'. That suggests a deep relationship with Q11b1a1a, all from roughly the same region. And not from 'East Asia'. terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-60881041657475773962015-08-08T07:55:05.639+03:002015-08-08T07:55:05.639+03:00I see that Q1b has now been divided into Q1b1 (fur...I see that Q1b has now been divided into Q1b1 (further split into Q1b1a and Q1b1b) and Q1b2. Where are each of these three centred? Turning to Q1a we have Q1a1 (further divided into Q1a1a and Q1a1b) and Q1a2 (further divided into Q1a12a, Q1a2b and Q1a2c). That gives us five haplotypes to place geographically. Care to elaborate? terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-4412876230544809902015-08-08T07:18:08.464+03:002015-08-08T07:18:08.464+03:00"Mongoloid phenotype does not go back more th..."Mongoloid phenotype does not go back more than 20000 years" <br /><br />I'm pretty sure the EDAR370A mutation has been dated to 35,000 years. That provides a good proxy for the appearance of the Mongoloid phenotype. <br /><br />"If by 'basal Q' you mean Q1b, your terminology is primitive" <br /><br />My phylogeny is based on the latest ISOGG set. Basically that set has Q1b as basically west Eurasian and Q1a as east. In fact they claim: <br /><br />"Y-DNA haplogroup Q arose in Central Asia and migrated through the Altai/Baikal region of northern Eurasia into the Americas". <br /><br />That sounds as though the compilers see it as having originated west of the Altai. terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-8773705060469386522015-07-27T00:30:56.292+03:002015-07-27T00:30:56.292+03:00@TerryT Likewise(just as you accuse me of saying s...@TerryT Likewise(just as you accuse me of saying something you didn't), when did I say anything about Mongoloid phenotype?<br />Being non-West Eurasian means being Mongoloid?<br /><br />And what does Mongoloid phenotype have to do with East-West Eurasians? Mongoloid phenotype does not go back more than 20000 years but populations ancestral to East Asians clearly had existed before that time.<br /><br />If by "basal Q" you mean Q1b, your terminology is primitive and the academic consensus is that that lineage was spread relatively recently by Turkic people from Central Asia. Many ancient remains found in China exhibit that haplotype(specifically Q1b, not Q1a-M120). If you are referring to Q* or Q1* claimed to have been found by various no-name ethnocentric scientists(most South Asian), you are quite gullible.Hectorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12971694159010797162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-84975578382255096342015-07-21T09:01:14.463+03:002015-07-21T09:01:14.463+03:00I don’t believe any modern ethnic group should hav...I don’t believe any modern ethnic group should have a legal claim to human remains that are thousands of years old based upon geography and tenuous genetic connections, and through those claims attempt to forbid the scientific study of those remains simply to assuage political sensitivities. CleverPrimatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07348182461045006012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-26962804766961471612015-07-21T06:23:04.388+03:002015-07-21T06:23:04.388+03:00"LOL if you think Mongols are 'West-Euras..."LOL if you think Mongols are 'West-Eurasians'" <br /><br />Where did I claim Mongols were 'West Eurasians'? As far as I can tell it is fairly well-established the Mongoloid phenotype developed somewhere near the borders of modern China, Tibet and Mongolia. Y-DNA Q as a whole is certainly not 'Mongolian'. I was simply suggesting that basal Q can hardly be said to have originated in 'East Asia'. <br /><br />"Kets and Selkups had originally lived much further East" <br /><br />Absolutely. But they do not contain basal Q. Just derived forms. terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-16179836028132132192015-07-13T16:39:25.175+03:002015-07-13T16:39:25.175+03:00@TerryT LOL if you think Mongols are "West-Eu...@TerryT LOL if you think Mongols are "West-Eurasians" I have nothing more to say to you. Kets and Selkups had originally lived much further East, Yenisei river and all the way down to Lake Baikal. In fact M Hammer discussed this in one of his earliest papers. <br /><br />There are some West Eurasian remains found in this area. But Kets and Selkups were not among them. sorry.Hectorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12971694159010797162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-43750855192315641202015-07-09T16:25:33.864+03:002015-07-09T16:25:33.864+03:00lucia said... What "private" party do yo...lucia said... What "private" party do you believe owns that Columbia Park?<br /><br />Kennewick Man was discovered on “FEDERAL LAND” exactly where the ACT states the LAW applies. <br /><br /><br />n/a said... NAGPRA specifies remains can be claimed by tribes who are direct lineal descendants or with demonstrable cultural affiliations to the remains<br /><br />The Act does NOT state . . DIRECT lineal descendants or DEMONSTRABLE cultural affiliations.<br /><br />The Act specifies . . a RELATIONSHIP of lineal descent or cultural affiliation.<br /><br />Where human remains and funerary objects are concerned, the Committee is aware that it may be extremely difficult, unfair, or even impossible in many instances for claimants to show an absolute continuity from present day Indian Tribes to older, prehistoric remains without some reasonable gaps in the historic or prehistoric record.<br /><br />In such instances, a finding of cultural affiliation should be based upon an overall evaluation of the totality of the circumstances and evidence pertaining to the connection between the claimant and the material being claimed and should not be precluded solely because of gaps in the record (Senate 1990:9).<br /><br />Whether new discoveries from Federal or Tribal land . . IT IS NOT NECESSARY for the agency, museum, lineal descendent, Indian Tribe . . TO ESTABLISH BEYOND ALL DOUBT which descendent or Native American group is a proper claimant for purposes of repatriation.Niinetahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16915175155778576367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-31486149450891383252015-07-09T15:08:59.765+03:002015-07-09T15:08:59.765+03:00Dear friends,
I know nothing of genetic science. I...Dear friends,<br />I know nothing of genetic science. I belong to the uppercaste hindu brahmin community. The theory of Aryan migration has always intrigued me. Dna test was done by my cousin. I have the raw data. Can someone help me the implication of the results?<br />Thank you<br />SrivatsanAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06910432425425997485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-39830006483508574712015-07-07T06:52:28.557+03:002015-07-07T06:52:28.557+03:00"Q is not a 'West Eurasian Y marker'&..."Q is not a 'West Eurasian Y marker'" <br /><br />How do you come to that conclusion? Native American Q is mostly Q1a2a1a1-M3, just one branch within Q1a2a1. Other Q1a2a branches are present in the Kets and Selkups (West Eurasian? Central Eurasian certainly) and in Mongolians. Deeper branches are found as far west as Iran. Its origin is way west of East Asia. <br /><br />"Native Americans are not a mix of 'East and West Asians', not even 'East Asians and West Eurasians'". <br /><br />Almost certainly a mix of East Asians and Central Asians. In fact they probably had already formed a stable hybrid population before they entered America although there have been some later additions. terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-6685239830999021932015-06-29T22:47:51.422+03:002015-06-29T22:47:51.422+03:00@Rokus -
"Since their only purpose remains t...@Rokus -<br /><br />"Since their only purpose remains to undermine science and to destroy evidence in the name of their share of religious fundamentalism, I would say the Native American tribes are as wrong as ever."<br /><br />I'm of Native American heritage myself and, although I personally don't have a problem with aDNA studies, some of my relatives are adamant in their insistence that Native American remains should not be disturbed. It's not that they are simply "anti-science": they just don't like Native Americans being "objectified" and their ancestors treated as "subjects" or "specimens". It's a question of moral values and spiritual beliefs and like the ethical concerns about scientific experimentation on humans without informed consent. To Native Americans, the right to privacy extends to beyond the grave. Note that even in modern societies, exhuming a corpse requires a good justification, a court order, and usually the family's permission. <br /><br />The scientific community has not always had a good track record in dealing with Native Americans. The use of genetic data collected for one purpose and then used for another without explicit consent is problematic. Native Americans have legitimate concerns that their genomic data will be misused, or exploited for commercial purposes without their permission. Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06029565423493357259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-10066551038862316342015-06-27T20:09:32.430+03:002015-06-27T20:09:32.430+03:00It's interesting how the Kenwick man shows les...It's interesting how the Kenwick man shows less genetic similarity with Native Americans, and more similarity to other groups. I wonder what his Mitochondrial and Y-DNA haplogroup was.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02635353391294889025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-20733683042065087042015-06-26T00:13:40.894+03:002015-06-26T00:13:40.894+03:00" Back to the Kennewick/penutian connection, ..." Back to the Kennewick/penutian connection, his diet was shown to be primarily pinnepeds and salmon, so I was expecting his MtDna to HgA. Remains from burials on the monterey penninsula, that are contemporaneous to Kennewick, have a clear delineation between Hg's A and D, All of the Hg A people had a diet consisting of pinnepeds and fish, while the diet of Hg D individuals was primarily terrestrial mammals." <br /><br /> you know that they still don't know why mtdna chances , why it mutates or back mutates. if they do they aren't talkin . they probably ain't asking either. that would take all that fun out of it and all that tea leaf magic too. <br /> so the real question still might be what does X change into in a few thousand years with environmental pressures ? it may stay x without any kind of environmental pressure if it moved locations it most likely got some environmental pressures. .. like maybe he just got there from the east of there or his parents did. so what can X2 change into ? because they is proven back mutations and on going changes. <br /> it is just theory that Mtdna haplogroups never change. sorry but that is not proven nor is that even provable . <br /><br /> so what is X2 in the pacific north west? but they want to know what the mannequin in the works really is ! Alashirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13726181228173268004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-74304236798060154202015-06-25T15:03:20.234+03:002015-06-25T15:03:20.234+03:00Q is not a "West Eurasian Y marker" and ...Q is not a "West Eurasian Y marker" and Native Americans are not a mix of "East and West Asians", not even "East Asians and West Eurasians".<br />ANE's being classified as West Eurasian stems from misunderstanding of statistics. ANE's affinity with West Eurasians is an accident of demographic history, not an indication of population origins.Hectorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12971694159010797162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-80581498740257285692015-06-25T01:09:22.094+03:002015-06-25T01:09:22.094+03:00Niineta,
"Does NOT apply to PRIVATE LANDS&quo...Niineta,<br />"Does NOT apply to PRIVATE LANDS"<br /><br />Are you under the impression Kennewick Man was found on <i>private</i> lands? I've been to Columbia Park, which is a lovely spot on the banks of the Columbia River. I don't actually know whether it's owned by the city of Kennewick, WA state or the Feds, but I'd be stunned if it turns out to be "private land". My impression-- having been there-- has always been it's either owned by Kennewick, WA state or the Feds.<br /><br />What "private" party do you believe owns that Columbia Park?luciahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12342621789338198739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-70524249080599337492015-06-24T22:53:09.331+03:002015-06-24T22:53:09.331+03:00@Niineta
Kennewick Man doesn't tell us anythi...@Niineta<br /><br />Kennewick Man doesn't tell us anything new about the first peopling of Americas, but that doesn't mean his genome is without value in learning about the prehistory of North America itself. <br /><br />It's hard to say with the relatively limited data we have from living North American populations, but Kennewick Man is slightly more East Asian like than Anzick-1, and is also further from South Americans, so he may be carrying Beringian ancestry post-dating the arrival of the First Americans.<br /><br />@aeolius<br /><br />Kennewick Man did not "belong to the same tribal group" as the Colvilles. It was made quite clear in the paper and even in the press that they didn't have enough data to say who were his closest living relatives. <br /><br />In fact, going by the D statistics, he shared the most ancestry with the Diaguita people of Chile and Argentina. He was about as close to the Colville as he was to most Central and South Americans. <br /><br />He was most closely related to the Colville out of all the samples from the US and Canada, but hardly any US tribes were included in the analysis. The other North Americans, apart from Mexicans and the Pima of Arizona, were northern Northwest Coast Indians, Algonkian speakers from the Great Lakes area, boreal forest Athapaskans, and Arctic people, so the result is hardly surprising. <br /><br />Of the tribes in the area the Colville alone were willing to donate their DNA to be tested for the study. The only other Plateau people in the sample were from further north in Canada, and they too were quite close to Kennewick Man - in fact looking at the confidence intervals the Stswecemc of central British Columbia are not significantly less related to him than are the Colville.<br /><br />The Colville could be modelled as largely but not entirely descended from Kennewick Man's population, which is a priori plausible. capra internetensishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15951755327460295070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-47704203674098508362015-06-24T22:47:10.465+03:002015-06-24T22:47:10.465+03:00Who cares about the law compared to right and wron...Who cares about the law compared to right and wrong? A few accusations of racism and McCaine and others have pandered to the squeaky wheels like always, without caring about what's right.<br /><br />Like I claimed before, and like the guy who wanted the testing claimed, KenneWick man is not related to the current locals at all. He came from thousands of miles away.<br /><br />Story of human origins is much more important than some political BS. This kind of crap is why half the studies today are so stupid and pander to political correctness so much.Fiend of 9 worldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17712083368615685458noreply@blogger.com