tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post5195333369520329714..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: EAA 2013 abstractsDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-57088713180080498182013-09-07T00:34:51.773+03:002013-09-07T00:34:51.773+03:00@Grognard,
We do not know the haplogroup composit...@Grognard,<br /><br />We do not know the haplogroup composition or the autosomal genetics of the Proto-Indo-Europeans or even their location and time. If the Proto-IE lived away from Anatolia (i.e., Eastern Europe), then we can say based on the genetic makeup of modern populations that Anatolia and environs were IE-ized with very little genetic change to those regions. You mention Armenians. Armenians have very little (less than Anatolian Turks, for instance), if any, genetic ancestry that is traceable to the Proto-IEs if we assume that the Proto-IEs lived away from Anatolia and environs, as Armenians are autosomally very Anatolian-like. <br /><br />Also, we have extremely little available ancient DNA data from Anatolia to trace the genetic history of Anatolia through the centuries, much less through the millennia. Currently we make much better inferences about the genetic history of Anatolia using the available craniometric data, as there are currently vastly more ancient craniometric data available from Anatolia than the ancient DNA data. The available craniometric data from Anatolia through the millennia indicate that there is a high degree of genetic continuity in Anatolia at least since the Bronze Age. Whatever demographic changes occurred in Anatolia following the Bronze Age collapse apparently were not sufficient to make a big difference in the genetic makeup. The population movements might have been mostly short-distance.<br /><br />Regarding Assyrians, they expanded their territory to Anatolia centuries after the BAC and only acquiered the SE corner of Anatolia, which they retained only for a few centuries. Assyrians cannot have made a bigger genetic impact on Anatolia than the Iron Age populations from the Balkans did. You say that Anatolia became more Assyrian-like following the BAC, but history and archaeology indicate that Anatolia, if anything, must have become more Balkan-like, because, as I wrote in my previous post, Anatolia saw more immigrant populations from the Balkans than from Assyria post-BAC.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-66074544464770995672013-09-06T01:19:46.712+03:002013-09-06T01:19:46.712+03:00I accidentally posted another comment towards you ...I accidentally posted another comment towards you in the next post up, onur :(<br /><br />Remember hittite is an indo european language. Assyrian is a semitic language. IE languages always seem to be associated with r1b and r1a, so far, though dienekes (and myself) think the origin is elsewhere. Most likely originally a lingua franca.<br /><br />Nothing I have ever posted on the subject is anything that's really disputed. You can look right in wiki article on bronze age collapse, and on hittites. <br /><br />There's just no way anyone can make a decent case for genetic continuity in anatolia when we have archaeological evidence of every city in the region being burned to the ground and no cultural or linguistic continuity. Not to mention it took over a thousand years for the population levels to recover.<br /><br />And bronze age collapse is just one of many big events in anatolia.<br /><br />Fiend of 9 worldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17712083368615685458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-573757275308682822013-09-05T01:58:15.862+03:002013-09-05T01:58:15.862+03:00google wiki bronze age collapsegoogle wiki bronze age collapseFiend of 9 worldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17712083368615685458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-90481240176385940412013-09-04T20:54:52.029+03:002013-09-04T20:54:52.029+03:00Literally everything in anatolia was razed in bron...<i>Literally everything in anatolia was razed in bronze age collapse. Repopulation didn't come for a long time and probably had a big component from assyria.</i><br /><br />What is your evidence for a depopulation in Anatolia following the Bronze Age collapse, and also for its subsequent repopulation from Assyria? The only known migrations to Anatolia following the BAC are from the Balkans (Phrygians, Bithynians, Greeks and possibly Armenians); there is no known migration from Assyria. Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-12473368719557694202013-09-04T17:48:12.426+03:002013-09-04T17:48:12.426+03:00Beaker People are mostly known for being Atlanto M...Beaker People are mostly known for being Atlanto Med.-Dinaric/Armenoid and richer in blood type q(B) which isnt particularly something Spanish are known for.<br /><br />"We also find some other old, eastern, round-skulled and high-skulled, dark strains, which are higher in the frequency of blood type gene q, in some of the coastal regions of West Europe. These strains are our Litorid race (See Map 18). They are approximately equivalent to Deniker's Litoral race. The coastal regions where these strains are found include: the Swedish western coast, northwestern Jutland, the Dutch province of Zeeland, Kent in England, northeastern Scotland (where the frequency of blood type gene q reaches almost 10%), the Isle of Man, southwestern Ireland (Valentia), western Wales, Cornwall, and western France (Brittany, Gironde)."<br />-Lundman<br /><br />"A particular, subrace belonging here is surely the big-bodied<br />and light eyed, but dark haired North Atlantic race (somewhat q-richer), although it is to some extent an "intermediary race" between Nordids (of Götatyp) and Insulars."-Lundman<br /><br /> <br />"The distribution of high B frequency fits the patter of settlement of the Beaker People and the Celts, for the distribution is restricted to that found for Wedge or Gallery graves and early metal working: the finding of a few Wedge graves in the other areas of Ireland would be explained by cultural diffusion."<br />- Tills and Mourant, Blood Groups of the Irish(1977)Crimson Guardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11622608998338145821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-25022395458433385862013-09-04T15:39:05.090+03:002013-09-04T15:39:05.090+03:00Andrew,
I agree with you; but more importantly, B...<i>Andrew,</i><br /><br />I agree with you; but more importantly, Bell Beakers by definition took on defending and stabilizing trade posts and river crossings. They also likely knew that, given their minority status almost everywhere, they needed to out-marry. Young girls capable of doing house work are quite valuable even before child-bearing age; as such, it seems plausible that BB girls were traded at large scale, not the least to acquire local women, leaving a surplus of boys having to do house work unless / until they qualified for "warrior" (= protection services) status.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-30726183284740111152013-09-04T01:37:49.955+03:002013-09-04T01:37:49.955+03:00Literally everything in anatolia was razed in bron...Literally everything in anatolia was razed in bronze age collapse. Repopulation didn't come for a long time and probably had a big component from assyria.<br /><br />So no, continuity has to be almost zero, though we do get traces that show r1b radiating out of it, which is what we expect regardless of if if we believe BAC spawned repopulation of europe.<br /><br />Including italic r1b, for that matter. So there were migrations, we already know that. The problem is the iron age really didn't get swinging until AFTER the bronze age collapse, when we already have r1b in 2600 bc in bell beaker and know the celts were r1b and they are already well into europe. <br /><br />The the migrants were peoples like Romans. And since even Rome, the most powerful group to migrate, didn't leave that big of a genetic mark on europe, the whole premise falls apart. <br /><br />That's only 500 years or less between start of bronze age collapse which made tin unavailable, and start of historic records of rome. So it's just not possible, there were r1b migrations in iron age, but if anything it was that they lost territory like anatolia, not that they gained.<br /><br />Fiend of 9 worldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17712083368615685458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-38560292809373465362013-09-03T20:37:03.065+03:002013-09-03T20:37:03.065+03:00It is getting increasingly hard to keep track of t...It is getting increasingly hard to keep track of the total corpus of ancient DNA data.<br /><br />The Bell Beaker child burial paper is quite interesting, although the notion that a previous "male-female" distinction was really a "warrior-nonwarrior" distinction is a pretty likely one. I could imagine the female buried as a warrior being some sort of one off post-humous recognition for brave action during a village raid resulting in death as much as anything more formal related to true gender identity.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-76850903791620030582013-09-03T14:40:02.526+03:002013-09-03T14:40:02.526+03:00apostateimpressions,
I am still not convinced abo... <i>apostateimpressions,</i><br /><br />I am still not convinced about the premise in the first place. "I have voiced my criticism of Haak many times before." <-- you can actually google that ;)<br /><br />The bottom line is that there are many circular arguments and flaws when comparing ancient Central European mtDNA with extant Near Eastern and Anatolian. It by definition assumes that the Balkan and CE mtDNA has changed, but the Near Eastern has not - which is ridiculous. We know Near Eastern, Anatolian, and even SE Asian mtDNA has changed though migrations, wars, slave trade, merchants, and mercenaries. And yes, often neglected: males can have a huge impact on mtDNA propagation.<br /><br />I believe the origin of particular mtDNA subgroups when full mtDNA studies and absence in a large dataset of aDNA resolve the likely origin. Which is not that easy on a sub-10,000 year time scale.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-28203702385896489412013-09-03T11:49:15.525+03:002013-09-03T11:49:15.525+03:00awesome array of work ! Bless them all awesome array of work ! Bless them all Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-79636804150508962452013-09-03T04:17:33.537+03:002013-09-03T04:17:33.537+03:00LBK
<< Comprehensive population genetic ana...LBK<br /><br /><< Comprehensive population genetic analyses utilizing large databases of present-day populations have disclosed genetic affinities of the LBK to the modern-day Near East, Anatolia and the Caucasus, supporting genetic influx from this region into Central Europe at the advent of farming and explaining the apparent genetic discontinuity between foragers and farmers. >><br /><br />LBK has affinities to the Near East yet the "West Asian" Admixture component, so common in the NE today, is totally absent from LBK? The WAC is then intrusive not only to Europe but to WA? That seems consistent with a central Asian origin of WAC (and of R1a/b) which later entered Europe through the NE. Or maybe the WAC was around the NE but did not mix with the Southern European component that entered Europe during the neolithic? But why then did WAC not enter then? S totally blocked WAC from Europe? It seems more likely that WAC did not enter Europe then from the NE because it was not there.<br /><br />Im guessing that LBK is heavy on the S component. Why then would LBK have closer affinity to the present NE than to places heavier with S?apostateimpressionshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992369104954433139noreply@blogger.com