tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post5151969829822444643..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica (King et al. 2011)Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-62092051350435769452015-03-06T07:38:26.636+02:002015-03-06T07:38:26.636+02:00@ Argiedude
If a SNP for your “Albanian cluster” ...@ Argiedude<br /><br />If a SNP for your “Albanian cluster” was found, I think you should take in consideration not only<br /><br />Da Silveira (Brazil): 58HRZ: 13, 11-11, 16, 8-10,11<br /><br />but also<br />Anonymous from Slovenia (Slovenia): B2A4W: 13, 11-11, 16, 8-11, 11<br />Anghel (Romania): SXRNE: 12, 11-11, 15, 8-9, 11<br />Yuran (Croatia): YARC5: 12, 11-11, 15, 9-10, 11<br />etc. etc.<br />Saturday, March 19, 2011 3:50:00 am<br />-------------------------------------------------<br />Seeing this post after 4 years I may say that:<br />1) Argiedude, the first to point out this cluster, spoke of "Albnian cluster", thus the name so far used of "Balkan cluster" is mine.<br />2) The link with Italy (Risso ht. probably isn't true: I published something about that on eng.molgen) isn't so far demonstrated.<br />3) The link with Iberia very likely is true, in fact this "Balkan cluster" is linked with samples from Iberia at deep SNP test level (see the smal's tree in "R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project"), it is recent and possibly expanded from Iberia with the Bell Beakers. Thuis of course is my hypothesis to be verified. <br />Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-31563006604101086702015-03-06T07:28:25.678+02:002015-03-06T07:28:25.678+02:0012 23 14 11 11-15 12 12 12 13 14 28
12 24 14 11 1...12 23 14 11 11-15 12 12 12 13 14 28 <br />12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 <br />12 24 14 10 11-15 12 12 13 13 14 28 <br />12 25 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 30 <br />12 24 14 12 11-14 12 12 12 12 13 28 <br />12 24 14 10 11-14 12 13 11 13 13 29 <br />12 25 15 11 12-13 11 12 13 13 13 29 <br />12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 28 <br />13 24 14 10 12-14 12 12 10 13 13 29 <br />13 24 14 12 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 29 <br />13 24 15 12 11-14 12 12 12 14 13 30 <br />13 25 14 12 12-14 12 12 11 14 12 32 <br />13 24 15 10 11-13 12 12 11 13 13 30 <br />13 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 29 <br />13 25 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 29 <br />13 25 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 29 <br />13 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 29 <br />13 24 14 10 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 29 <br />13 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 <br />13 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 <br />13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 <br />13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29<br />Someone asks on Anthrogenica about these hps http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69/abstract. What do they demonstrate?<br />a) 1 R-M269* (12 25 15 11 12-13 11 12 13 13 13 29 ) <br />b) 3 R-L23-L277 (12 23 14 11 11-15 12 12 12 13 14 28, 12 24 14 10 11-15 12 12 13 13 14 28, 12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 28) <br />c) Perhaps some R-L23-L584 (12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29, 12 25 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 30, 12 24 14 12 11-14 12 12 12 12 13 28, 12 24 14 10 11-14 12 13 11 13 13 29)<br />d) Very likely a group of R-L23-Z2110-CTS9219 "Balkan cluster" with a little variance (DYS390 24 or 25, DYS391= 10,11,12, ) (13 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 29)<br />e) Perhaps an R1a (13 24 14 10 12-14 12 12 10 13 13 29)<br />f) Some hts under R-L11 (13 24 15 12 11-14 12 12 12 14 13 30, 13 25 14 12 12-14 12 12 11 14 12 32, 13 24 15 10 11-13 12 12 11 13 13 30, 13 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29, 13 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29, 13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29, 13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29)<br />It seems that they are introgressed from different sources.<br />-----------------------------------------------------------------<br />This has been the analysis I did on the Y12. The Paper is that of Roy King et al. about the presence of Greek descendants in the Greek colonies in South France and Corsica. I spoke a lot about this paper when it was published, also about the fact that to consider Greek descendants in Corsica for the colony of Alalia was antihistoric, because those colonists were defeated by Etruscans and Phonicians and the survivors went to Velia, offered by other Greek colonists of the nearby Poseidon/Paestum and Greek descendants should have searched there (those Greek colonists were the ancestors of the great Greek phylosophers of the Eleatic school).<br />But looking at the paper again, and above all to the Y37 and SNP test, I'd say that pretty all my hypotheses are confirmed (the "Balkan cluster" is sure for its DYS459=8-10), the R1a are tested throught M198, thus the haplotype with DYS439=10 isn't an R1a...<br />But above all the R-M269 has YCAII= 17-23 like the most part of the Italian R-M269 from Calabria and South Italy, and this opens the possibility that they may be of Greek origin, even though we cannot exclude that the origin is in South Italy and the descendants of these Greek colonies in Turkey may have come from Italy, but there is the presence of other hts with YCAII =17-23 in the Caucasus and Russia and a Greek origin should be taken into account.<br />Of course only a deep SNP test of these samples could say something more careful. It is open also the question of the link of my acquired cousin from Tuscany Fabrizio Federighi with a Greek with the mutations PF7566 and PF7569 and the recently raised again question of the "Sea Peoples".<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-89818463486045094972012-03-24T15:13:39.008+02:002012-03-24T15:13:39.008+02:00A large part of the Penopolesse and part of Attica...A large part of the Penopolesse and part of Attica were settled by Albanians (Arvantes). This occurred around the 13/14th centuries at the request of the Byzantines.applecathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17074149276504880201noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-15334386169378815072011-03-19T03:50:18.824+02:002011-03-19T03:50:18.824+02:00@ Argiedude
If a SNP for your “Albanian cluster” ...@ Argiedude<br /><br />If a SNP for your “Albanian cluster” was found, I think you should take in consideration not only<br /><br />Da Silveira (Brazil): 58HRZ: 13, 11-11, 16, 8-10,11<br /><br />but also<br />Anonymous from Slovenia (Slovenia): B2A4W: 13, 11-11, 16, 8-11, 11<br />Anghel (Romania): SXRNE: 12, 11-11, 15, 8-9, 11<br />Yuran (Croatia): YARC5: 12, 11-11, 15, 9-10, 11<br />etc. etc.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-67747976592371807722011-03-19T01:55:29.137+02:002011-03-19T01:55:29.137+02:00The way that figure is labeled is impenetrable.
N...The way that figure is labeled is impenetrable.<br /><br /><i>Note that the Albanian cluster has its highest frequency in the Penopolesse peninsula, at 35% (n=93).</i><br /><br />Higher than in Albania itself? j/kDienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-49383138985177786322011-03-19T01:11:59.934+02:002011-03-19T01:11:59.934+02:00Check this out:
V13 and R1b-Albanian cluster map
...Check this out:<br /><br /><a href="http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/2769/v13andr1b1b2albanianclu.gif" rel="nofollow">V13 and R1b-Albanian cluster map</a><br /><br />Note that the Albanian cluster has its highest frequency in the Penopolesse peninsula, at 35% (n=93).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-65138021802008217642011-03-18T21:12:22.617+02:002011-03-18T21:12:22.617+02:00Ciulla has been tested by 23andME and is on the “A...Ciulla has been tested by 23andME and is on the “Adriano’s spreadsheet”. He has nothing different from me and the other R1b1b2a: L23+/L49+/L150+. Do you think that this cluster has an own SNP? Perhaps, but anyway not a subclade different from L277, M405 or my S136, i.e. this was the bush from where arose L51. The problem is to determine the ancientness of this cluster. You know I think that it is very old and linked with other haplotypes like that of the Italian Risso (ySearch EK3WJ). We shall see.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-61073433681937545742011-03-18T18:27:00.947+02:002011-03-18T18:27:00.947+02:00The Albanian cluster of R1b1b2 has 385a/b = 11/11 ...The Albanian cluster of R1b1b2 has 385a/b = 11/11 and 459a/b = 8/10.<br /><br />It's L11- but it has 393 = 13, though it does have 461 = 11, as in other L11- clusters.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-22149261230554809672011-03-18T11:25:06.348+02:002011-03-18T11:25:06.348+02:00For Dienekes, aside from Cruciani-2007 (E3b study)...For Dienekes, aside from Cruciani-2007 (E3b study), King (2008), and Battaglia (2008), are there any other studies that tested V13 in Greeks?<br /><br />Di Giacomo et al. (2003) tested for DE but had large regional Greek samples, and most of it ought to be E-V13 given all the other evidence we have.<br /><br /><i>And I have to stress the fact that the Smyrna and Phokaia samples included 6 samples of "R1b1b2 - Albanian cluster", that really is the clincher that ties these samples to the Balkans. </i><br /><br />I don't know what evidence there is for an "Albanian cluster", but the fact that it exists in Anatolian Greeks who most likely have no or minimal Albanian admixture probably suggests that it is a more general Balkan cluster rather than a specific Albanian one.<br /><br />Also, I have no idea why you'd be surprised that these Greeks have Balkan connections, Greeks after all, originated in the Balkans and having moving back and forth across the Aegean for more than 3,000 years.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-44812068842163522772011-03-18T08:05:38.874+02:002011-03-18T08:05:38.874+02:00Cartledge says humorously perhaps with a note of w...Cartledge says humorously perhaps with a note of whimsical frustration:<br />It has of late become an acknowledged scandal that the Dorians, archaeologically speaking, do not exist. That is, there is no cultural trait surviving in the material record for the two centuries or so after 1200 which can be regarded as a peculiarly Dorian hallmark. Robbed of their patents for Geometric pottery, cremation burial, iron-working and, the unkindest prick of all, the humble straight pin, the hapless Dorians stand naked before their creator - or, some would say, inventor.<br />Cartledge, Paul (2002). Sparta and Lakonia: A Regional History, 1300-362. Routledge. pp. 68.<br /><br />Although the tribe of Dan settled the tel in the 11th century BCE, they did not leave any archeological remains. <br />The city became prominent only after the death of King Solomon (928 BCE) when Israel was divided into two kingdoms.<br /><br /><br />The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica (King et al. 2011)????<br /><br />Autochthonous (E-M81) and prominent (E-M78 and J-M267) Berber Y-chromosome lineages were detected...<br />Male and female sub-Saharan African genetic inputs were also detected....Fregel, R. et al. (2009), Demographic history of Canary Islands male gene-pool: replacement of native lineages by European, BMC Evolutionary Biology, vol. 9, article no.181 (3 Aug 2009).anavenohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02472575675005827801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-35347827580582906082011-03-18T05:15:45.532+02:002011-03-18T05:15:45.532+02:00"It seems pretty clear to me that E-V13 beari..."It seems pretty clear to me that E-V13 bearing men of Provence are patrilineally descended from the Greeks of the archaic age. The same could be true for others (e.g., J-M92) assigned (erroneously in my opinion) to non-Greek Anatolians" <br /><br />That was my suspicion on first reading the paper. However I thought there may be some perfectly good reason why the haplogroups may be older in Provence.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-81712107597303569982011-03-18T00:25:58.938+02:002011-03-18T00:25:58.938+02:00In yhrd there are 16 samples from Chios, the Greek...In yhrd there are 16 samples from Chios, the Greek island off the west coast of Turkey that is very nearby to Smyrna and Phokaia, the 2 west Turkish sites sampled in this study. 4 samples are probable M78, and given the fact that M78(xV13) is very low in both Greece and Turkey, it's fair to guess that probably all 4 are V13, which would result in 25% V13. Western Turkey, excluding these recent Smyrna and Phokaia samples, has about 3% V13, much lower than Greece's 25% V13. And I have to stress the fact that the Smyrna and Phokaia samples included 6 samples of "R1b1b2 - Albanian cluster", that really is the clincher that ties these samples to the Balkans. It's like finding 7% M222 in the coast of Germany.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-43083359242475003612011-03-18T00:18:53.574+02:002011-03-18T00:18:53.574+02:00After Dienekes pointed out to me, in his own speci...After Dienekes pointed out to me, in his own special way, that 7% V13 in Greece is wrong, I looked at published studies and realized that in fact Greek V13 is more like 25%. My mistake was using ysearch samples. I'm now realizing that at least half of these samples are probably Jewish Greeks, and those that explicitly stated their Jewish origin indeed had an assortment of haplogroups that is not typical of Greece.<br /><br />For Dienekes, aside from Cruciani-2007 (E3b study), King (2008), and Battaglia (2008), are there any other studies that tested V13 in Greeks?<br /><br />Also, do you know from where in the Aegean are the "Aegean" samples in Cruciani's 2007 study of E3b?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-54016990063958833712011-03-17T18:39:42.073+02:002011-03-17T18:39:42.073+02:00Strat, you are right about gene flow to Asia Minor...Strat, you are right about gene flow to Asia Minor (mainly from the islands). But remember that the islands were also mostly settled by Ionians in ancient times, and before that we would expect the prehistoric population of the islands to be related to the coastal population of Asia Minor. <br /><br />Another thing to remember is that the coastal Greeks had very little time to intermix with pre-Greek Anatolians at the time when Massalia was settled, so I don't think it would be a good idea to use Greeks from the interior, as these would have absorbed Mysians, Lydians and the like _after_ the Western colonization.<br /><br />But, certainly, it's a good idea to look at more Greeks and likely Greek descendants from elsewhere. That's a good way to identify a small "core" of Greek lineages that are so omni-present from Massalia to the Black Sea, that they are likely to have been part of the ancient gene pool as well.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-27321965673593180092011-03-17T17:10:01.387+02:002011-03-17T17:10:01.387+02:00Coastal West Anatolia (the tested area in this stu...Coastal West Anatolia (the tested area in this study) received migrants from the Greek mainland not only during Ancient times but also during the Ottoman era. In fact, coastal West Anatolian Greeks are overwhelmingly descended from the Ottoman era Orthodox Christian migrants to the West Anatolian coast from the southern Balkans and the Aegean islands according to the historical demographic sources (the original coastal West Anatolian Greek population had mostly been absorbed by the Turks due to mass slavery and conversions mostly during the earlier Anatolian Turkish principilities era). So coastal West Anatolian Greeks are genetically the least Anatolian of all Anatolian Greeks. <br /><br />Other Anatolian Greeks (who, unfortunately, weren't included in this study), including the Interior West Anatolian Greeks, on the other hand, are much less influenced by the Ottoman era Orthodox Christian migrations from the southern Balkans and the islands and thus much more indigenous to Anatolia.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-21684556181914140102011-03-17T04:00:11.933+02:002011-03-17T04:00:11.933+02:00Yep sorry typo. 4.5% J2Yep sorry typo. 4.5% J2Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11000684388615334278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-39724871192285267902011-03-17T00:45:52.082+02:002011-03-17T00:45:52.082+02:00The study found M78+ V13+, aka E1b1b1a2b, at a who...<i>The study found M78+ V13+, aka E1b1b1a2b, at a whopping 13 out of 89, or 15%. Incredible. V13+ is also centered in Albania. It's found in Turkey at barely 1%, at 7% in Greece, 6% to 8% in south to north Italy, and 25% in Albania (this last figure calculated with just 50 samples).</i><br /><br />Your numbers are both unattributed and erroneous; All Greek studied populations have higher than the made-up 7% figure.<br /><br />Quadruple-posting <i>and</i> misleading with made-up numbers is not good behavior.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-21509226816536362362011-03-17T00:14:31.557+02:002011-03-17T00:14:31.557+02:00This is so strange, I think we either have a huge ...This is so strange, I think we either have a huge sampling mistake, for example, they mistakenly analyzed a set of Balkan samples instead of the intended northwest Turkey samples, and if not, then this is a very interesting discovery that requires further investigation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-41161084476032549732011-03-17T00:13:04.871+02:002011-03-17T00:13:04.871+02:00The study found M78+ V13+, aka E1b1b1a2b, at a who...The study found M78+ V13+, aka E1b1b1a2b, at a whopping 13 out of 89, or 15%. Incredible. V13+ is also centered in Albania. It's found in Turkey at barely 1%, at 7% in Greece, 6% to 8% in south to north Italy, and 25% in Albania (this last figure calculated with just 50 samples).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-13964290196470096272011-03-17T00:10:14.323+02:002011-03-17T00:10:14.323+02:00R1b1b2 - Albanian cluster. This cluster isn't ...R1b1b2 - Albanian cluster. This cluster isn't formally recognized yet, it doesn't have its own SNP, but there's no doubt about its validity, it has one of the most easily recognizable and divergent modal haplotypes of any R1b1b2 cluster. 6 of the 89 Turkish samples in this study belonged to this cluster, or 7%. The cluster makes up 15% of Albania's y-dna, 4% of north Greece, 4% of south Greece, 0% in northeast Greece (the panhandle), 2% in Macedonia, 16% in south Serbia (Kosovo), 2% in central Serbia, 1% in Bulgaria, and 0% in Romania. In Italy there are 0 out of 1000 samples, in Croatia there a few out of 1250, and in Turkey there are 0 out of 1500 samples, underscoring the extremely limited range of the cluster. Yet this study found 6 out of 89 in northwest Turkey. Also, the 6 samples of this study have a low diversity, which is normal for this cluster, but not an ultralow diversity indicating a very recent "Ashkenazi-style" bottleneck.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-85263653529133127662011-03-17T00:09:40.063+02:002011-03-17T00:09:40.063+02:00These samples are weird. If I had analyzed them wi...These samples are weird. If I had analyzed them without knowing their origin I would've sworn they're from Greece, Albania, or Macedonia.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-54562680587113064862011-03-16T23:59:04.269+02:002011-03-16T23:59:04.269+02:00Probably the paper hasn’t demonstrated its assumpt...Probably the paper hasn’t demonstrated its assumptions, but has put at our disposal many interesting haplotypes. Amongst the R-M269 from Smyrna and Phocaea (23) 6 have DYS385=11-11. Argiedude was the first to speak of a Balkan haplotype of R1b1b2a (now R1b1a2a), found also in Ciulla, a Sicilian of probably Arberesh origin. I think having demonstrated that the Balkan haplotype is very uniform and found in Italy an haplotype with more variance (Risso: ySearch EK3WY), then more ancient, and spoke of an Italian origin also for this haplotype. See now this haploype found in England (Beacham: ySearch TN2ZH), which demonstrates the origin of this cluster in Western Europe (I of course think in Italy) rather than in the Balkans.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-62480161630791988992011-03-16T06:19:23.137+02:002011-03-16T06:19:23.137+02:00Annie Mouse, the J2 in Germany is 5% not 2.5%Annie Mouse, the J2 in Germany is 5% not 2.5%Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11176991485098836114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-31865171279248611132011-03-15T23:25:15.521+02:002011-03-15T23:25:15.521+02:00"Greece and Albania are almost identical in Y..."Greece and Albania are almost identical in Y chromosomes. The difference is that J2 and G2 (and R1a) are higher in Greece than in Albania. If Albania was populated from Greece this suggests to me that extra J2 and G2 (and R1a) entered Greece after the split. Evidence of more recent population flow it appears, perhaps from Turkey and the Balkans. Perhaps flowing deeper into southern Europe in more recent times."<br /><br />I don't have the data in front of me, but I believe more of J2 in Greece is near the coasts. If that's the case, then it's possible that these Greeks are descendants of ancient peoples, before more modern gene flow. Greeks controlled the economic strongholds during pre-Turkish invasions--this included large cities and coasts. <br /><br />Parts of the interior of Greece were said to be repopulated with Greeks by the Byzantines over 1,000 years ago.Deanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10753416265954000609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-40680756303255127892011-03-15T10:26:41.523+02:002011-03-15T10:26:41.523+02:00The Turks may be the Greek turkish speakers,in fa...The Turks may be the Greek turkish speakers,in fact, I believe, that this is the link.<br /><br />About Provence, I think it's fair enough connection to the Greek colonization. Marseille has always been a Greek city which came in the Roman domains such as Roman allied city and has never undergone large massacres during the dark times.<br />But I believe that the spread of E-V13 is not only of Greek origin.<br />The Gallia Narbonensis was heavily settled in Roman times (the Romans called it "our Province, "or simply "the Province", and today his name is still Provence), and many cities in the region were founded by veterans of the legions (Nimes, Narbonne, Orange, Arles, Beziers, Frejus) so I think that the during the imperial era the influx of people from the Balkans, Italy and Greece itself was significant.<br /><br />About Corsica however, it seems strange that the spread of E-V13 is more consistent on the west coast, when Aleria, the largest Greek colony was situated on the coast of north-east and the city was abandoned in the fifth century BC.<br />I believe that for this reason that it is modern and is connected to the settlement of the Greeks fleeing from the Ottomans in 1600, when the Genoese ruled the island.<br />They settled in Cargese, in the region of Ajaccio, in the south west.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com