tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post4878880437816941601..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Analysis of Ashkenazi Jewish genomes (Bray et al. 2010)Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-32907445372225993892013-07-29T22:18:16.591+03:002013-07-29T22:18:16.591+03:00"Consider for example a 23AndMe relative, who..."Consider for example a 23AndMe relative, who is 1/4 Irish, 1/4 Jewish and 1/2 Chinese, however on plots she shows up as Kalash/Hazara?! So if I didn't know anything about her, I would assume she is from Central Asia, and would be very wrong. In a similar fashion, AJ's are known to be a have a mix of Middle Eastern or Anatolian/European or European-like population. But then so are Tuscans?! So they would be similar for those reasons, irrespective of historic admixture with Tuscans, right? "<br /><br />It's not saying she's from there, but genetically she probably is very similar to central asians as they'd pull genes from those directions in those rough proportions. West european, ME and east asian proportioans are what makes the difference in nearly everyone, it's not like there is some special gene right in her home town or something. but yes you have to remember these population studies are just averages, and don't mean much. And in this case it's easy to tell what went wrong.<br /><br />I get annoyed that ashkenazi jew has been redefined to include almost all jews in europe when it's not really the case.<br /><br />And this "etruscan" mixture confirms this, too. Italian, etruscan and french? What does this REALLY mean? Well, I don't have to ask I already know and this seems to confirm it.<br /><br />The ashkenazi jews mixed in with rheinlanders aka bourgogne peoples. The bourgogne moved through etruscan area and piedmont savoy and their descendants became the kings of italy. This is the component they are being shown to be similar to.<br /><br />Those specific jews did come from khazar and you find the r1a something something with a Q in it in this population and in the remains sampled of actual khazarians, and not in the europeans surrounding them.<br /><br />These are the guys with big heads and huge IQs. Tend to have reddish hair and be taller than average. Don't really look like "jews" at all. <br /><br />The rest of european jews now called ashkenazi have an average IQ of 104 and pull their genes from around the world.<br /><br />Fiend of 9 worldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17712083368615685458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-87050404616635655402010-09-01T23:09:17.920+03:002010-09-01T23:09:17.920+03:00Any further comments on "Etruscans" and ...Any further comments on "Etruscans" and other off-topic subjects will be deleted.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-24804701080378032992010-09-01T22:33:35.332+03:002010-09-01T22:33:35.332+03:00Actually, assuming Etruscans were from the Egean a...Actually, assuming Etruscans were from the Egean area, perhaps it is better to consider the fact that initially they were more concentratrated in South tuscany (and North Latium). Then they "etruscanized" north Tuscany and other areas.<br />In any case I just wanted to say that Tuscans, especially in the south are probably not ideal for an Italian proxy, not that they are non European aliens from east of the Adriatic sea.Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01148345006852811881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-69619544255995384412010-09-01T21:47:53.644+03:002010-09-01T21:47:53.644+03:00"The only I want to explain is the connection..."The only I want to explain is the connection between the Tuscan and the Jews Ashkenazim, that could be understand by the relation with ME.<br />We know that the great Etruscan civilization were the base of the development of arts, science, tongue influence and blood traits – very fit to them and spread into others parts of Italy and with very biochemist study made -.<br />Remember that Romulo and Remo come from Etruria actually Tuscania and North Latio in Tarquinia spot (boundary city) en etrusco, Tarchnal o Tarch.<br />All Presences of mythological issues “grecoetruscos”, like were Romulo and Remo also for example “the deer of Télefo”, and “the Wolf of Bolonia”- central Italy- and so." <br /><br /><br />There isn't any connection between Askenazims and Tuscans, and few lineage will not change anything. Askenazims have been told to be between 35/55% europeans too.<br />As we can see in the chart above Askenazim are well distinct by Tuscans anyway. In case there is something of Adygei in Tuscans and some in Askenazims that's possibly the connection.<br /><br />As for the etruscans they were developed but their culture was similar to Greece and developed later its own style just because they melted with locals who descended from Villanovians, infact etruscans built their cities over preexisting villanovians settlements.<br />Moreover the etruscan language is basically disappeared from Tuscany and if etruscans had been many (to the point to change tuscan dna) they would have superimposed their language. <br /><br /><br /><br />As for the study you posted, well maybe those cattles really come from middle east, but what did genetic become? <br />Have you ever heard any other population of the world beyond tuscans which cattles have been studied to find out what their ancestors were?<br />Just because genetists don't find any other strong connection between Tuscans and Anatolia or the Levant then they came out with the theory of the cattles...<br />It seems to me that every genetist only want to be the first to discover where etruscans came from, even if the proofs have no sense, just like the few haplos they focused about to fantastically claim "Etruscans were Turks" and which haplos could come from almost tens other places in the world Wales comprised. It takes a kid from elementary school to debunk too the theory of Turks=Etruscans since turks were not even there at that timealfiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10933271829812947439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-7756131530472067382010-09-01T20:08:08.729+03:002010-09-01T20:08:08.729+03:00The only I want to explain is the connection betwe...The only I want to explain is the connection between the Tuscan and the Jews Ashkenazim, that could be understand by the relation with ME.<br />We know that the great Etruscan civilization were the base of the development of arts, science, tongue influence and blood traits – very fit to them and spread into others parts of Italy and with very biochemist study made -.<br />Remember that Romulo and Remo come from Etruria actually Tuscania and North Latio in Tarquinia spot (boundary city) en etrusco, Tarchnal o Tarch.<br />All Presences of mythological issues “grecoetruscos”, like were Romulo and Remo also for example “the deer of Télefo”, and “the Wolf of Bolonia”- central Italy- and so. <br />The patronymic of places and names of Central Italy are well known and decoded from Etrurian inscriptions.<br />The link between Etruscan and Greeks were by Ships and ground travels in history times, then with the Latin Romans, all of these wonderfully cultures of South Mediterranean Basin like are common sense. <br /> See too :European Journal of Human Genetics (2009) 17, 693–696; doi:10.1038/ejhg.2008.224; published online 3 December 2008,Francesca Brisighelli et al.<br />The Etruscan timeline: a recent Anatolian connection<br /><br />The origin of the Etruscans, one of the most ancient and enigmatic non-Indo-European civilizations.<br /><br />"The finding has been interpreted as evidence in support of the classical theory that Etruscans may have come from the East through the Mediterranean Sea (Herodotus, Historiae, Vol I, p 94), which currently find little support by archaeologists and historians.2 In favor of the Eastern Mediterranean origin of the Etruscan civilization, the finding that the extent of mtDNA variation observed in Tuscan cattle breeds is similar to that observed in the Near East and much higher than that observed in the rest of Italy and Europe."<br />Dr. H. H. Otero C. -biochemist-<br />Argentinahoraciohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08177107320272273468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-35649838925759993902010-09-01T18:50:34.023+03:002010-09-01T18:50:34.023+03:00Mixed with Romans... and who are these Romans? To ...Mixed with Romans... and who are these Romans? To follow the ancient histories is fascinating but it is a little scientific.<br />For the ancient Greeks everything had origin in their world, when they met new peoples soon they invented an origin from a well knowned place.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-59362824691217895582010-09-01T18:09:05.525+03:002010-09-01T18:09:05.525+03:00I have found the study you posted and you arbitrar...I have found the study you posted and you arbitrarily missed this point, out of an undetermined biased claim:<br /><br />"The investigation of a large and representative sample set and the analysis of complete mtDNA genomes support the hypothesis that Tuscany still preserves the fingerprint of a historical connection with the Near East. However, it should be stressed that this represents just a minor component of the Tuscan genetic make-up and suggests that historically different layers were superimposed over the Mesolithic gene pool of the Peninsula."<br /><br />Note added in proof:<br /><br />Analysis performed by coalescent simulations21 suggested a model with little or no continuity between Ancient Etruscans and Modern Tuscans. However, the ancient dataset was extremely small and only a larger sample size would set the issue of diachronic continuity in Tuscany."<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />I'm fed up of people trying to portray Tuscans for what they are not.alfiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10933271829812947439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-79407394616916294832010-09-01T17:58:13.786+03:002010-09-01T17:58:13.786+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.alfiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10933271829812947439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-20618023542594184132010-09-01T17:55:14.402+03:002010-09-01T17:55:14.402+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.alfiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10933271829812947439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-54174908897257859992010-09-01T17:11:45.500+03:002010-09-01T17:11:45.500+03:00"The typical Near Eastern U7 haplogroup"..."The typical Near Eastern U7 haplogroup".<br /><br />I don't believe, since U7 reach its higher peak in western India and not in the middle east , furthermore it does not go beyond the 12% in India.<br />I find difficult that Elba people got more.<br /><br />Tuscany is not at all a southern country "mixed" with romans, if anything before etruscans there were villanovians and after ligures and even some celts like apuanes.<br />Tuscany is where it should be with more affinities with north Italy than the south.alfiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10933271829812947439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-4911669838313386972010-09-01T16:54:40.998+03:002010-09-01T16:54:40.998+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.alfiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10933271829812947439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-14067520321251163102010-09-01T16:50:38.241+03:002010-09-01T16:50:38.241+03:00"A recent study identified among modern Tusca..."A recent study identified among modern Tuscans a rather high prevalence of Near Eastern mtDNA haplogroups and an exclusive haplotype sharing between them and Near Eastern populations.<br />Tuscans are a tipical South population mixed with Romans and others.<br />The typical Near Eastern U7 haplogroup occurs at relatively high frequency in the Elba Island (~17%; 9 mtDNAs out of 53), and all of these U7 mtDNAs share the same HVS-I motif (T16271C-A16318T-T16519C), indicating that this lineage could represent a Near Eastern founder in the Isle."<br /><br /><br /><br />Hardly Elba isle is representative of the whole Tuscany since it is an isle, and you could find middle eastern haplogroups from Greece to England. Plus i laugh at all these claim since many of the haplogroups they stated as Turks can be find in Wales too.<br /><br />So keep your middle eastern pride away from tuscans and take a look at 23andme to see if tuscans are so middle easterners as you would like to claim.alfiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10933271829812947439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-73439889916568153482010-09-01T13:01:46.302+03:002010-09-01T13:01:46.302+03:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-41807332924069374192010-09-01T09:39:21.225+03:002010-09-01T09:39:21.225+03:00A recent study identified among modern Tuscans a r...A recent study identified among modern Tuscans a rather high prevalence of Near Eastern mtDNA haplogroups and an exclusive haplotype sharing between them and Near Eastern populations.<br />Tuscans are a tipical South population mixed with Romans and others.<br />The typical Near Eastern U7 haplogroup occurs at relatively high frequency in the Elba Island (~17%; 9 mtDNAs out of 53), and all of these U7 mtDNAs share the same HVS-I motif (T16271C-A16318T-T16519C), indicating that this lineage could represent a Near Eastern founder in the Isle.horaciohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08177107320272273468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-69556135350954302622010-09-01T05:15:42.884+03:002010-09-01T05:15:42.884+03:00Jack said:
"Ponto,
Tuscans are what they are,...Jack said:<br />"Ponto,<br />Tuscans are what they are, they are but ok for a Southern European proxy, depending on what you consider South Europe. I do not think they are a good proxy for Italians proper because their gene pool is screwed up by the probable admixture event of the etruscans. Neither are parts of the regions of Calabria, Sicily and Puglia for similar reasons."<br /><br /><br />What does it mean screwed up?<br />Then it is screwed up the ones of many central europeans too who in 23andme cluster with Tuscans.<br />You can't compare too the history of Tuscany with the ones of Puglia, Calabria and Sicily, since Tuscany never been affected by historical muslims and phoenicians and recent studies shown any link between Tuscans and Etruscans.<br />Plus Tuscany has had three waves of germanic people too which gave rise to dukedome of Tuscia while nothing like that happened in south Italy.<br />There is a bit of m.e admixture in autosomal tests(and i suspect the samples were the ones only from Murlo and Volterra to biasedly claim tuscans are etruscans)like even french show a little; Then how many people all over Europe lack in those tests who could have the same admixture if not more than Tuscans?<br /><br />Ponto is right Tuscans are more central europeans than others and can't be used as south Europe.<br /><br />It seems to me that many people try to label tuscans only because of etruscans, when there are many more people more admixtured than them.alfiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10933271829812947439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-31532928324830898312010-09-01T05:04:17.972+03:002010-09-01T05:04:17.972+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.alfiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10933271829812947439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-15629145343318862832010-09-01T04:56:06.575+03:002010-09-01T04:56:06.575+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.alfiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10933271829812947439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-7953992262708293122010-08-30T13:04:14.411+03:002010-08-30T13:04:14.411+03:00Far more likely to reflect Indian connections over...<i>Far more likely to reflect Indian connections over the last 2000 years. We know of such contact because several India religions have been introduced to the region: Buddhist, Hindu and Muslim. Also the Cambodians I have met all look more 'Indian-like' than do Malays for example.</i><br /><br />Yes, read my second post. <br /><br /><i>They probably are, just speak different languages. But tribalism is very much alive and kicking still today, as shown by the arguments over who is or isn't a Jew. Still it's interesting as to the genetic composition of various populations.</i><br /><br />A few weeks ago I wrote a post in Razib's blog seriously asking whether Uyghurs and Hazaras are the same people. So I am already open to that possibility. But I think we should first investigate more populations from Central Asia <b>together</b> in order to say anything conclusive on this matter.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-47488755395431452302010-08-30T08:30:52.232+03:002010-08-30T08:30:52.232+03:00"The overlap between Cambodia and central Asi..."The overlap between Cambodia and central Asia may reflect both their relatedness to the already theorized ancient southern migration along the Indian ocean passing throughout both India and southeast Asia and continuing to Australia". <br /><br />Far more likely to reflect Indian connections over the last 2000 years. We know of such contact because several India religions have been introduced to the region: Buddhist, Hindu and Muslim. Also the Cambodians I have met all look more 'Indian-like' than do Malays for example. <br /><br />"Uyghurs and Hazaras can be the same people as they appear genetically almost the same in every genetic study". <br /><br />They probably are, just speak different languages. But tribalism is very much alive and kicking still today, as shown by the arguments over who is or isn't a Jew. Still it's interesting as to the genetic composition of various populations.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-67344009099518083472010-08-30T03:02:12.368+03:002010-08-30T03:02:12.368+03:00Ponto,
Tuscans are what they are, they are but ok ...Ponto,<br />Tuscans are what they are, they are but ok for a Southern European proxy, depending on what you consider South Europe. I do not think they are a good proxy for Italians proper because their gene pool is screwed up by the probable admixture event of the etruscans. Neither are parts of the regions of Calabria, Sicily and Puglia for similar reasons. <br />As for Jewish History I still bet on their ME origin (which is what studies have alway indicated) with obvious admixtures here and there. That Euro Jews probably have a 30-40% Euro component has been "known" for years. No news here.Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01148345006852811881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-63289712229916213832010-08-29T22:25:32.161+03:002010-08-29T22:25:32.161+03:00The Ashkenazim hyperploydia is explained by the su...The Ashkenazim hyperploydia is explained by the superposition and overlay of diverse fount or source population , that are all of this of Jewish origin (that consider converted into intraJewish assimilations) , one coming from the “Syrian European nucleous” – that Sephardic as well as preAshenazim bring inside -. The other convergence were the “Coptic Jewish nucleous”, coming from Alexandria, the main and largest Judaic center in ancient times – the buried and graves in Jewish graveyards and catacombs of Tuscan, and Alsace as too Rhineland cities take a lot of Egyptian ornaments and display figures from these, as well as Y and mtDNA markers - . The great Jews migration from Egypt beginning after the Muslim invaders from Arabia in the VII AE century. The “Babylonian and Persian nucleous” take place and contacts newly with and when the “preAshenazim second fase” were migrating to the East Europe. A remarkable contact was with the fourth “East Europe Jews nucleous”-not related or little related with ME-, with the descendant of the Jews Khazarians ones, spreading every where and carrying a lot of East Europe and Eurasian markers. That happen between the XI and XII century AE. <br />The Tuscan host populations come from Anatolia like infers mtDNA markers, and others, yet present today – a thread Etruscan link - and are so common in South East Basin like Albanian, Grecian, Tunisian and Anatolian , as well as the entirely Italy and some South France spots, practical absent in center or North Europa or East Asia.<br />Dr Hector H. Otero Cohen.<br />Argentina.horaciohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08177107320272273468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-46897657620536054522010-08-29T16:49:58.068+03:002010-08-29T16:49:58.068+03:00How would I get the genetic distance (or Fst value...How would I get the genetic distance (or Fst values) between unmixed australiods and the rest of the world's populations? Like What dynekes did with the Yoruba.<br /><br />I'm curious about the distances from this relatively isolated southern population. I'm also curious about their migration and what they left along the way.princenuadhahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02165977957244158593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-56517674150031291062010-08-29T10:43:28.708+03:002010-08-29T10:43:28.708+03:00http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100603/full/news.2...http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100603/full/news.2010.277.html<br />See, Comment 11149 and 12952 with table 1 -partial-, remember that the sibling Hg "M" and "N" -from "L3"- too correspond to East African origin, and are not included at all-see complete table 1, in reference-.<br /><br />Ethiopian and Ashkenazim are both true jews, the "L2" mtDNA marker is present in the two populations also the derived and sibling mtDNA Hg "M" and "N", as well as the Y markers Hg E3b and 4s too, all of this from East Africa and so. They belong respectively at one of the three nucleous or center jewish ancient populations, that evolving the called "Syrian-European nucleous"(helenistic and Roman times).<br />The oldest center -Ethiopians belong these- were that developed in Napata and Elephantine (Kush) and whose nucleous or center was after Alexandria, and I called "Coptic Nucleous" derived in two bias, and split forwards the North via Europe -intermixed with the Syrian Europe nucleous- or the South, via Nile and the Horn Of Africa.<br />The "Babilonian and Persian nucleous" is other of the above three mentioned centers and included Bukara, Iranian and Iraki mainly. <br />All of this Nucleous take Judaea and Israel like a axis and pendulo.<br /> Another fourth Nucleous or center I call "East Europe" -not mainly conected with ME-, is not ancient like the three others and was the Jewish Khazar Empire stiring into Askenazy current population and others. All of this events were naturaly intrajewish asimilations in all jews current populations. <br /><br />Dr Hector H. Otero C.<br />Argentina.horaciohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08177107320272273468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-51341021804335509482010-08-28T20:21:02.217+03:002010-08-28T20:21:02.217+03:00I had already mentioned in other post of the polit...I had already mentioned in other post of the political problems on the Ethiopian Falashas that are a native population of the Africa's Horn and not "true Jews."<br />Already the State of Israel had problems when was discovered that half of the Russian immigrants in Palestine, in the years 70/80, were false Hebrews.<br />Now what would happen if it discovers that the Askenazis are in reality, for the majority, European converts?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-74416294214074932382010-08-28T13:03:52.297+03:002010-08-28T13:03:52.297+03:00I don’t know if someone has noted before that the ...I don’t know if someone has noted before that the modal for R-L23* (see Table S2) in Switzerland <br />(14, 12, 13-28, 24, 11, 14, 12, 12, 11) is the same of the Jewish R-L23*. Some Jew, like Sean Silver, may think that they are the remnants of the Jews that migrated from Italy to the Rhine Valley (I have always said the contrary). <br />There is a research, that of Wayne Kaufman on the Burkholder and the SNP L277, that is trying to shed light on the question (mysterious is the third tested with this SNP: from India said CeCe More). This cluster has DYS385=13-28, DYS392=14 but DYS393=13 and DYS461=12.<br />I suggested to Kaufman to search, beyond Switzerland, also on the mountains of Central Italy (see D’Aurora: Ysearch ID RD6J3), who maintains the original DYS393=12.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.com