tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post4577763815161370547..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: ASHG 2010 abstractsDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-33086539950983059432010-11-11T17:15:11.540+02:002010-11-11T17:15:11.540+02:00Originally Posted by Akkad
[quote ]
[quote nam...Originally Posted by Akkad <br />[quote ]<br /><br /><br />[quote name='handschar' date='06 November 2010 - 21:14 PM' timestamp='1289099663' post='220546']<br />Many thanks to my friend Bonnie, for the following bit from the upcoming Al-Zahery Marsh Arab paper:<br /><br />Interestingly, when the two M267 subclades, J1-M267* and J1e are considered, differential frequency trends emerge. The less represented J1-M267* primarily diffuses towards North East Mesopotamia and shows its maximum frequency in the northern area (Assyrian). In contrast, the most frequent J1e accounts for almost all the J1 distribution in South West Mesopotamia, reaching its highest value in the Marshes. By considering the STR variance associated to the two different subsets of J1 chromosomes, the highest variance for both J1-M267* and J1e is registered in the northern Mesopotamia area. . . . The lower variance value (0,118) registered in the Marshes Arabs is in agreement with a recent expansion event which, itself, clearly emerges from the network analysis. The presence of Y chromosomes belonging to the M267* paragroup suggests a long persistence of this haplogroup in the Mesopotamia Marsh area. <br /><br />Thank you very much handschar:<br /><br />Historically the Mesopotamia Marsh Arabs Area long long time ago was the resident for the Sumerian/ Akkadian civilizations.<br /><br />Handchar :<br /><br />Do you think the long persistence of J1* in the Mesopotamia Marsh Arabs Area and amongst Assyrians in North East Mesopotamia, is due to their association with the Akkadians ? <br /><br /><br />[quote ]<br /><br />http://dna-forums.com/index.php?/topic/9259-j1-with-dys38813/page__pid__220606__st__220&#entry220606Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00927399981098778299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-31162681282914035702010-09-14T11:56:25.524+03:002010-09-14T11:56:25.524+03:00mtDNA Z in the Saami and Finns is claimed to be as...mtDNA Z in the Saami and Finns is claimed to be as recent as 2,700 years old, and it derives from the Volgo-Ural region, with further links to Northeast Siberia and Japan http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n1/abs/5201712a.htmlGerman Dziebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10703679732205862495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-17624589389820393852010-09-14T10:19:32.021+03:002010-09-14T10:19:32.021+03:00"It's possible that the high frequencies ..."It's possible that the high frequencies of mtDNA U5 in Saami and U4 in Ob-Ugrians reflect the amount of post-glacial gene flow from west to east, while mtDNA C, Z and D5, found at low frequencies in the Saami, may represent that tertium quid, with northeastern origins, almost obliterated by later admixture". <br /><br />I think more than 'possible'. Quite likely in fact.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-10967418641524744462010-09-14T04:37:55.512+03:002010-09-14T04:37:55.512+03:00"a major ice sheet covered the whole of the l..."a major ice sheet covered the whole of the low-lying region east of the Urals (the West Siberian Plain) until something like 6-7000 years ago: the lower Ob and Yenesi valleys."<br /><br />Only the northern part of the West Siberian Plain was covered in ice. One can't exclude the possibility that there were some refugia such as the Taymyr one, which could host the ancestors of Uralic-speakers. In any case, I'm still going back and forth on the southern, western, eastern and northern axes of the Uralic-Yukaghir range as potential homelands. It's possible that the high frequencies of mtDNA U5 in Saami and U4 in Ob-Ugrians reflect the amount of post-glacial gene flow from west to east, while mtDNA C, Z and D5, found at low frequencies in the Saami, may represent that tertium quid, with northeastern origins, almost obliterated by later admixture.German Dziebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10703679732205862495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-15284082736594455622010-09-13T11:04:16.777+03:002010-09-13T11:04:16.777+03:00"There's an oldish paper by Richard Roger..."There's an oldish paper by Richard Rogers 'Language, Human Subspeciation and Ice Age Barriers in Northern Siberia' (1986)" <br /><br />I can't say I've ever read it but I remember reading long ago that a major ice sheet covered the whole of the low-lying region east of the Urals (the West Siberian Plain) until something like 6-7000 years ago: the lower Ob and Yenesi valleys. If true this would place the Samoyed arrival in the region to more recently than that.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-13227149427872135932010-09-13T04:14:31.239+03:002010-09-13T04:14:31.239+03:00Maybe these guys are the direct descendants of the...<i>Maybe these guys are the direct descendants of the Sumerians, but I don't see how this evidence establishes anything.</i><br /><br />Only ancient Sumerian DNA can establish any genetic connection or disconnection with Sumerians.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-86997107411844037192010-09-13T04:12:28.980+03:002010-09-13T04:12:28.980+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-7821325328003592862010-09-12T17:05:29.684+03:002010-09-12T17:05:29.684+03:00Eurologist,
I like the way you've approached ...Eurologist,<br /><br />I like the way you've approached it. We definitely need to add past ecology into the mix. I'll add more abstract data into the mix before we arrive at a solution. Although I suspect your "centrist" position on the Uralic homeland (between Ukraine and Southern Urals) is largely accurate.<br /><br />There's an oldish paper by Richard Rogers "Language, Human Subspeciation and Ice Age Barriers in Northern Siberia" (1986) in which Eurasian language families, especially Uralic and Altaic, and the Mongoloid-Caucasoid phenotypic divergence are mapped against Pleistocene, post-LGM ecological zones. I don't know how to embed it here, but I can e-mail it you. One of the observations that the paper makes is that the melting of the glacier removed the natural barriers separating several refuge populations (let's say in the east, in the west and somewhere in the center) and created this powerful Mongoloid-Caucasoid mingling that's attested in the cranial morphology and the genes of Uralic peoples. The Saami share their U5 branch with none other but the Berbers suggesting that their makeup was affected by the post-LGM movement out of such a far western refugium as Franco-Cantabrian. <br /><br />Now, the tertium quid theory suggests that the central component of this pre-Great Melt Eurasia (not Caucasoid and not Mongoloid but "phenotypic Uralic" per Moiseyev) has survived in some "linguistic Uralic" populations such as Saami and Ob-Ugrians (Khanty and Mansi). This is what makes them Uralic. Finns, Mordvinians, Udmurts and Mari experienced gene flow from the Caucasoid west, while Samoyeds experienced gene flow from or absorbed some Siberian Mongoloid groups of Altaic or Paleoasiatic provenance. Even later some Uralic groups west of the Urals got Altaicized through a population movement out of South Siberia (e.g., the Chuvash in http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/03/abstracts-from-aapa-2010.html). In the case of the Chuvash, we don't see any genes moving westward, only language, but the presence of such a South Siberian Y-DNA haplogroup as N1c across the Uralic groups west of the Urals suggests that this westward movement was demic, not just cultural.<br /><br />One more player to consider are the Yukaghirs in the far northeast. Their linguistic affiliation with Uralic is currently beyond doubt but their geographic location adds complexity, rather than gives a straightforward answer to the old questions. If Uralic-Yukaghir constitutes the primary split in the Uralic linguistic phylogeny, then, geographically, the Yukaghirs reinforce the northern pole of the Uralic distribution comprised of such bearers of the Uralic tertium quid as the Saami and the Ob-Ugrians, while at the same time adding weight to the eastern pole. Then what do we do with the such a strong far western, Franco-Cantabrian association of Saami mtDNA? Linguists consider the Uralic-Yukaghir split as organic, namely not substratum induced. This makes it difficult to explain the Yukaghir factor away as a classic Uralic language, ultimately of European origin, imposed on a Mongoloid population in the Far North-East.German Dziebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10703679732205862495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-42640655648601285472010-09-12T12:42:21.708+03:002010-09-12T12:42:21.708+03:00German,
Interesting post. Where do you see the o...German,<br /><br />Interesting post. Where do <i>you</i> see the origin - let's say, of the Saami and Finnish-<i>speaking</i> people (not the people who make up most of their current genetic make-up, of course)? <br /><br />From what I have gathered recently, there seems to be some mild consensus that the area between the Baltic language homeland (between Eastern Ukraine and Southern Russia)and the southern Urals may be the best candidate. While most think of this as rather recently, I am envisioning a connection to a few millennia after The Great Melt (~8.000 - 10,000 years ago) that left the area between and North of The Two Great Lakes ;) rather inaccessible - because much of it was either flooded or marshland.<br /><br />That is, Uralic people where isolated (concerning the NW direction) and couldn't easily move NW shortly after LGM, and when they could, they found much of the region already inhabited. Conversely, they could more easily and earlier move East - which may explain some of the seeming contradictions.<br /><br />Just some thoughts.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-35894532532690325342010-09-10T22:47:18.154+03:002010-09-10T22:47:18.154+03:00The Marsh Arab abstract caught my eye as well. It...The Marsh Arab abstract caught my eye as well. It seems odd to talk about possible "Semitic Arab" origins for the Sumerians, when we know from historical records (the oldest anywhere) that Sumerians were antecedent to Semitic peoples and that the Sumerians ultimately adopted the language of the incoming Semitic peoples.<br /><br />It should hardly be a surprise that Southern Iraqi Marsh Arabs have a similar J1 haplotype to Middle Eastern Arabs generally. But, modern DNA samples of Marsh Arabs doesn't shed a lot of light on the genetic origins of Sumerians, despite their common geographic location, in a place that has seen so many sweeps of history (at leas half a dozen plausible ones, and probably more) in the past 5500 years, a whole host of which could be the source of predominant Y-DNA types. Maybe these guys are the direct descendants of the Sumerians, but I don't see how this evidence establishes anything.Andrew Oh-Willekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537151821869153861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-37798372893404784182010-09-10T18:31:38.269+03:002010-09-10T18:31:38.269+03:00"One of the great problems of Eurasian anthro..."One of the great problems of Eurasian anthropology is whether the Uralic populations are simply variable admixtures of Caucasoids and Mongoloids or they contain a tertium quid in the form of a Proto-Uralic element."<br /><br />It's remarkable that by way of answering the question of the Uralic homeland linguists produced several widely divergent theories. These theories cover pretty much the whole geographic range in which Uralic languages are found from modern Poland in the West to the Volga-Kama region (where I conducted both archaeological and ethnological fieldwork back in the early 1990s) and finally to western Siberia. In the case of other well-studied language families such as Austronesian and Indo-European there's a general agreement that Austronesian languages mostly expanded from north to south/east and Indo-European languages from south and east to north and west. In the case of Uralic, it can go either way.<br /><br />It's also noteworthy that the traditional binary-split, hierarchical structure of the Uralic family has been questioned. See http://www.helsinki.fi/~tasalmin/kuzn.html. It's possible that all Uralic branches (Finno-Saamic, Volga Finnic, Ob-Ugrian and Samoyedic) derive directly and independently from proto-Uralic. From the kinship studies perspective, proto-Uralic kinship system seems to be best preserved (almost intact) in the Saami (see Dziebel, "The Genius of Kinship"). This is the tertium quid. It supports a "western origin" for Uralic and is consistent with some genetic evidence (e.g., U5b1b in the Saami, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181943/) of the origin of the Saami in the course of the post-LGM repopulation of Northern Europe. But this comes in conflict with craniology (per Moiseyev quoted by Dienekes) that detects the proto-Uralic morphological type in Ob-Ugrians.<br /><br />I don't believe in the "hybrid" origin of Uralic-speakers on purely methodological grounds. The way comparative method works is that you gotta be able to reconstruct a proto-type (genetically, linguistically, craniologically, etc.) and then explain other interferences as later gene flow, borrowing, etc., or earlier substratum. But Uralic is one of those challenging cases (aren't they all?) when it's hard to say what genetic layer maps onto what linguistic layer, etc.German Dziebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10703679732205862495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-83708287291703729352010-09-10T05:06:46.852+03:002010-09-10T05:06:46.852+03:00Regarding Sumerians, it isn't clear where they...Regarding Sumerians, it isn't clear where they came from; they might just have been a native ethnic group of southern Mesopotamia for thousands of years before the first appearance of the Sumerian language in the historical record. <br /><br />I think to understand the quantity of pre-Arabian genes in the Marsh Arabs they should compare them with the non-Muslim populations of that region like Mandeans.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-44291791160297914252010-09-09T12:47:16.196+03:002010-09-09T12:47:16.196+03:00Great abstracts; good to learn from.
The Salars w...Great abstracts; good to learn from.<br /><br />The Salars was a good case in point.<br /><br />Its very important to tie in genealogical history (the plausible one) with genetic studies.<br /><br />For instance the Baluch claim to originate from Aleppo, now that doesn't really make sense (from a linguistic point of view) however it is evidence of "foreign" origins to their homeland.<br /><br />I particularly liked the "music" and genetics correlation.Zachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13127382384826876357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-64695797157748288802010-09-09T03:06:50.884+03:002010-09-09T03:06:50.884+03:00I found the Marsh Arab extract interesting. I don&...I found the Marsh Arab extract interesting. I don't understand the idea of either a Sumerian origin or a South Asian one for the Arabs. Why? Because they don't ride camels, have Water Buffaloes, and live in reed dwellings? To my eyes they have all the indicators of a recent movement of desert Bedouin to an alternate lifestyle in the marshes with its easier life, and the movement of these unusual Bedouins into the marshes has produced an unusual people, founder effects but still unmistakeably Arabs.<br /><br />I cannot see any association with those hypotheses of the Semitic languages, ca 6,000 years old, the "Arabs" or any other "Semitic" people, ca 2,000 years old with J1 whether M267 or "Page08" which is older than either the language group or the ethnic group.<br /><br />I say produce proof rather than suppositions regarding language, haplogroup and ethnic group associations rather than just looking at the presence of those languages, haplogroups and ethnic groups today. One day, all will be extinct like the Etruscans, the Iberian language, and mtDNA K1otzie, and there will be nothing to make suppositions about.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-76508305792607703242010-09-09T02:16:05.312+03:002010-09-09T02:16:05.312+03:00It seems I and Maju were right regarding the genet...It seems I and Maju were right regarding the genetic purity of the Totonac.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.com