tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post4144235562242231172..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Genomewide diversity in the Levant (Haber et al. 2013)Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-91877319598057462272013-03-21T14:21:57.332+02:002013-03-21T14:21:57.332+02:00Exactly.
Exept that the Syrians do not cluster wit...<i>Exactly.<br />Exept that the Syrians do not cluster with Palestinians so clearly, they seem to be very diverse in this sample. </i><br /><br />Slumbery,<br /><br />I agree, of course.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-39797595648912018062013-03-21T08:30:41.725+02:002013-03-21T08:30:41.725+02:00Hi, Tror Billy!
I think there is a tendency to en...Hi, Tror Billy!<br /><br />I think there is a tendency to engage in fantastical theorization at times by people. When simple explanations tend to fit much better. I think this happens with the Jews and the origins of the groups subsumed there in. I think we tend to overestimate the conversion of non-Jews to Judaism. Certainly and obviously conversions happened, but not at all massively.<br /><br />The Jews are overall, much more related to the northern Levantine populations than to Italians. There were plenty of other related northern Levantine populations that were very much a presence in the Roman Empire. They would have migrated to Italy and Rome proper for whatever reason...by force or otherwise. We must not forget that the Eastern Roman Empire was centered in Byzantium/ Constantinople (modern Istanbul, Turkey), so there was obvious exchange between the eastern empire and it's western counterpart. I still think the Greeks and their non-Greek predecessors/ ancestors (Minoans, Tyrsenians/ Tyrrhenians, Anatolians, and whatever), through the Greeks, had far more genetic impact on Italy and indeed Rome itself than any other population. The impact of the Greeks, if not genetically, is linguistically and culturally is extremely well-evidenced from that time all over that part of the world. We must also consider the impact of the Etruscans who may have influenced the Romans, at least culturally, more than the Greeks. If the Etruscans did indeed come from Anatolia, they had to have had some degree of genetic impact on the populations they colonized. We must not discount the impact of the Phoenicians (ancestral to the modern Lebanese and, thus, related strongly genetically and linguistically to the Jews) either. They established colonies all around the Mediterranean rim. And going way, way back in time, the spread of the Neolithic from Anatolia and the Near East to Italy and it's genetic impact on populations already present.<br /><br />So I think the relation of Italians to the Jews is a result population movements from Greece and the Near East from the Neolithic down to the present day. Among those population movements during the time of the Roman Empire from the eastern Mediterranean was a comparatively small contingent of Jews.AdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-81950340258585110492013-03-20T10:34:41.833+02:002013-03-20T10:34:41.833+02:00I think the thing you were talking about is in thi...<i>I think the thing you were talking about is in this link?<br />http://books.google.com/books?id=leQtcmpcQ-EC&pg=PA545&lpg=PA545&dq=edomite+language&source=bl&ots=IVvdrNDSK1&sig=faHT206mO-8gzv5iZ3rZs6ILpiQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fDhIUfa0AYPi4AOkhIHoAg&ved=0CDIQ6AEwATge#v=onepage&q=edomite%20language&f=false</i><br /><br />Yes it is.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-33410483259896537612013-03-19T23:14:14.558+02:002013-03-19T23:14:14.558+02:00I just found this from another study regarding the...I just found this from another study regarding the Italian/EEJ connection ...in the conclusion "The close genetic resemblance to Italians accords with the historical presumption that Ashkenazi Jews started their migrations across Europe in Italy and with historical evidence that conversion to Judaism was common in ancient Rome. The reasons for the discrepancy between the biparental markers and the uniparental markers are discussed. " Found in the research "The origin of Eastern European Jews revealed by autosomal, sex chromosomal and mtDNA polymorphisms" Avshalom Zoossmann-Diskin Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10354279818991151845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-10708655507356090772013-03-19T23:03:56.930+02:002013-03-19T23:03:56.930+02:00@ AdygheChabi
I understand that is one of the the...@ AdygheChabi<br /><br />I understand that is one of the theories out there. That would probably explode and over amplify the Judiac population. I don't doubt that "some" forced conversion occured. However at every turn it seems that "forced conversions" as the default answer. The previous study showed a connection with Askenazi Jews not Sephardic...anyways I think there's something mysterious there to be explored. Perhaps, another theory of legionares in the outskirts of Europe? Europeans in newly Muslim conquered territory choosing Judiasm vs. Islam? A reverse Schindler's list? Romans taking Judiac wives? False historical memories, i.e. groups self identifying and then being used in studies...?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10354279818991151845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-54363183728490731972013-03-19T21:20:38.290+02:002013-03-19T21:20:38.290+02:00Hi, Tror Billy!
It is not that the Italians were ...Hi, Tror Billy!<br /><br />It is not that the Italians were converting to Judaism...It was Jews being forcibly converted to Roman Catholicism. There are Crypto-Jews ("hidden" Jews) in the Italian population, not many...but they are there. Also, there were merchants and workers/ slaves from the Levant that lived in Italy also due to the Roman Empire's very cosmopolitan nature. There was just lots of contact between Rome and the Levant...hard to quantify it. When and how it got there and why. I think much of it comes from Greece and the Greeks though, given Greece's proximity to the Levant and to Italy and because we know of the Greeks having had established well-known colonies (Magna Graecia) in Italy. Also we must not ever fail to mention the possible autosomal genetic impact of the Etruscans if indeed they were from Anatolia. The many of the great ancient civilizations were quite mobile obviously.<br /><br />Also I agree with much of what the other commentors said. The Palestinians do not seem to be of the Northern Levantine derivation overall, but they are not entirely of Arabian extract either. So there is some Northern Levantine admixture there, apparently small, but significant enough to keep them from being entirely Arabian.AdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-66827034885065887062013-03-19T18:41:51.233+02:002013-03-19T18:41:51.233+02:00@ Dr Rob
This was at the tip of my mind, having r...@ Dr Rob<br /><br />This was at the tip of my mind, having read it somewhere on Dienekes site, that is that autosomally Italians were related to Spaniards and Askenazi Jews and then third to Greeks. <br /><br />It's almost like the Catholic church might have been correct in their anxiety that people where leaving the Church and converting to Judiasm...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10354279818991151845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-14568592089517650652013-03-19T12:08:01.318+02:002013-03-19T12:08:01.318+02:00Hi, Onur!
I think the thing you were talking abou...Hi, Onur!<br /><br />I think the thing you were talking about is in this link?<br />http://books.google.com/books?id=leQtcmpcQ-EC&pg=PA545&lpg=PA545&dq=edomite+language&source=bl&ots=IVvdrNDSK1&sig=faHT206mO-8gzv5iZ3rZs6ILpiQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fDhIUfa0AYPi4AOkhIHoAg&ved=0CDIQ6AEwATge#v=onepage&q=edomite%20language&f=false<br /><br />I think you will find this link informative and helpful:<br />http://mushecht.haifa.ac.il/catalogues/Nabateans/Joseph_Naveh.pdfAdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-9691164925607797482013-03-17T20:00:28.634+02:002013-03-17T20:00:28.634+02:00Sorry for the late answers, I was a bit distracted...Sorry for the late answers, I was a bit distracted from this blog. <br /><br />Blender<br />This speculation can explain a part of the pattern. A good working hypothesis until it is either proven or disproven. <br />(BTW, I just did not understand why you picked out my comment, most of the comments in this entire blog are speculations and this is not so bad thing.)<br /><br />Eurologist<br /><i>"This (if I understand correctly) presumes that (i) ancient Jews would in the PCA analysis fall were modern Jews are now, and (ii) the ancient non-Jew local population was similar to where modern Jews now are."</i><br /><br />I did not say this, neither I think this is implied by my statement. All I assumed that there had to be admixture between ancient Jews and ancient non-Jews, so they had to be closer to each other that modern Jews and Palestinians. On this PCA chart they are actally very far, without any overlap even between outlying samples. This suggest that the Palestinians do not have majority ancestry from a population that got Jew admixture (ancient non-Jews). <br /><br /><i>"IMO this shows that modern Jews, apart from their recent European admixture, are mostly related to ancient northern coastal Levantines (and likely, people of the southeastern Mediterranean coast of Turkey), decedents of the Anatolian Neolithic, and that ancient Jews might have been mostly, as well, regardless their Semitic language. "</i><br /><br />Exactly.<br />Exept that the Syrians do not cluster with Palestinians so clearly, they seem to be very diverse in this sample. Slumberyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05139930329199925111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-92059673768381028902013-03-15T18:41:23.210+02:002013-03-15T18:41:23.210+02:00Hi, Adyghe,
I read in an academic book (via Googl...Hi, Adyghe,<br /><br />I read in an academic book (via Google Books) about the existence of an inscription written in the Edomite language from the Hellenistic times, but can't remember which book it is. If I find the reference, I will gladly share it with you. I would not hesitate to admit that I was wrong if I really thought that I was wrong.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-49965272302798832032013-03-14T09:49:01.184+02:002013-03-14T09:49:01.184+02:00Hi, Adyghe,
Actually, North Arabians acquired the...Hi, Adyghe,<br /><br />Actually, North Arabians acquired the Aramaic alphabet (to write in Aramaic) and the South Arabian alphabet (to write in Arabic, or more correctly, Ancient North Arabian) almost concurrently. But, like I said previously, writing in the North Arabian varieties (first with the South Arabian alphabet, later with the predecessor of the Arabic alphabet) was pretty limited and mostly reserved for writings of lower culture. <br /><br />As for the Edomites, you have yet to demonstrate that they ever spoke Aramaic as mother tongue.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-36037263001070764502013-03-13T03:25:19.402+02:002013-03-13T03:25:19.402+02:00Hi, Onur!
You are persistent...We have hashed thi...Hi, Onur!<br /><br />You are persistent...We have hashed this out already. If the Nabateans had no writing then why are there North Arabian inscriptions in epigraphic South Arabian found all over what is now Northern Saudi Arabia all the way up into Syria and as far west as the "Sinai" and as far south and east as historical Al-Bahryn which includes the eastern coast of the Arabian Peninsula down to the borders of Oman, and also includes the island of Awal (modern-day Bahrain). If the Nabateans were part of that dialectical continuum, then how can you say they did not have a written language. Those inscriptions came from someone. In fact, the Nabateans are always associated with the people of Qedar as allies or relatives. Even in the Assyrian records this is done. So it is quite possible Qedar and the Nabatu spoke the same dialect of Old North Arabian. But, here is a quandry for you...in the Assyrian annals, the Nabatu/ Nabatayu are listed as Arameans, not Aribi/ Arabs. By the way, Arabs used the word "nabatu" to denote Arameans. However, it is not true that were actually Aramean...more likely they were "true" Arabs (we know that because of onomastics) that had been strongly influenced by the Arameans. They spell their names in sightly different ways which suggest that they may not have all been of one tribe or people. Also, a Nabatu people are mentioned in southern Arabia.<br /><br />As far as the Edomite language is concerned...(see below)<br /><br />Witionary:<br />Edomite (plural Edomites)<br /><br /> (biblical) A person descended from Esau (Edom)<br /><br /> A Canaanite Semitic language spoken by the Edomites in southwestern Jordan in the first millennium BCE, <b>extinct from the 6th century BCE</b>. (emphasis mine)<br /><br />If there is something I will amend, it will be my statement on their (the Nabateans) origins. They may have not originated in the Hejaz but farther north (modern eastern Jordan and northern Saudi Arabia) along with Qedar. This is also reflective of modern scholarships confusion over their origins (the Nabateans).<br /><br />Again, the evidence is not in your theory's favor.AdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-14157553864969994562013-03-12T01:16:42.756+02:002013-03-12T01:16:42.756+02:00Hi, Onur!
Both questions were answered in all of ...Hi, Onur!<br /><br />Both questions were answered in all of my rather comprehensive comments.AdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-48246787474228350712013-03-11T09:14:28.943+02:002013-03-11T09:14:28.943+02:00AdygheChabadi,
Two questions:
What evidence do y...AdygheChabadi,<br /><br />Two questions:<br /><br />What evidence do you have that non-Judaized Edomites ever spoke Aramaic as the mother tongue?<br /><br />What evidence do you have that Nabataeans ever spoke Aramaic as the mother tongue?Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-12036394073825623622013-03-10T16:11:23.213+02:002013-03-10T16:11:23.213+02:00(Part 2)
Still furthermore, Wikipedia (which I ha...(Part 2)<br /><br />Still furthermore, Wikipedia (which I hate citing because of article errors, but this one is well-cited) states, <b>“The language of the Nabataean inscriptions, attested from the 2nd century BCE, shows a local development of the Aramaic language, which had ceased to have super-regional importance after the collapse of the Achaemenid Empire (330 BC). The Nabataean alphabet itself also developed out of the Aramaic alphabet. This Aramaic dialect was increasingly affected by the Arabic dialect of the local population. From the 4th century, the Arabic influence becomes overwhelming, in a way that it may be said the Nabataean language shifted seamlessly from Aramaic to Arabic. The Arabic alphabet itself developed out of cursive variants of the Nabataean script in the 5th century.</b> It is strange, I said the same thing.<br /><br /> Furthermore, the Jews conquered Edom/ Idumea under the Hasmoneans. The Jews forced the Edomites/ Idumeans to convert to the Jewish faith. By the time of the Hasmoneans, the Jews would have been Aramaic speakers for many centuries. King Herod, the Roman client king of Judea, was born to an Edomite/ Idumean father and Nabatean mother. It is known that by the time of Herod "the Great" Aramaic was widely spoken in Edom/ Idumea by the "Judenized" Edomites/ Idumeans who were forcibly converted by the Jews under the Hasmoneans...those that did not become refugees in Egypt. As a matter of fact, Herod like many Edomites/ Idumeans considered himself Jewish, though the Pharisee did not see him as such.<br /><br />What do we know about Edomite/ Idumean territory? We know that it encompassed what became the heart of the Nabatean Empire. Petra was in the eastern part of Edom/ Idumea. We know that a part Edom/ Idumea became part of Judea...along with Samaria. The more southern and eastern parts became part of the heartland of the Nabatean Empire.<br /><br />So, I AM CORRECT in saying that the Edomites/ Idumeans who stayed in their homeland spoke Aramaic and that it became more and more influenced over time by North Arabian so much so that it seemlessly transitioned into full North Arabian later. Also, as implied by M.C.A. MacDonald (a foremost authority of North Arabian), there are native Aramaic words in Nabatean. (Facetiously) I wonder where these “native” Aramaic words came from.<br /><br />Again, it was never said that North Arabia was Aramaic speaking. I said there are Aramaic names in SOME North Arabian inscriptions which means that there were some Arameans that were among the North Arabians because of trade or otherwise. Furthermore, one of the Kings of Qedar, whose capital was centered on Adummatu/ Dumah, was named Hazael…an Aramaic name. He was either North Arabian with an Aramaic name or an actual Aramean.<br /><br />As can be seen, you are the one in gross error.<br /><br />Onur, never argue with a girl…you will always be wrong.AdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-85460241947096234212013-03-09T09:18:41.243+02:002013-03-09T09:18:41.243+02:00Rereading statements and I didn't read where i...<i>Rereading statements and I didn't read where it said that Aramaic was spoken in North Arabia to the exclusion of Old North Arabian or that North Arabia was an Aramaic speaking region. <br /><br />There is confusion, but it is not on the part of the commentators.</i><br /><br />AdygheChabadi, are you sure?<br /><br />Creative said*:<br /><br />"Which makes me wonder about later <b>Aramaic</b> and Arabic speaking groups of Pre-Islamic Arabia and their relation to the original Hebrews."<br /><br />You said*:<br /><br />"We also know that the Nabateans were <b>Aramaic speakers and then almost seemlessly transitioned to a North Arabian language as more North Arabians moved in that region and influenced the language</b>."<br /><br />* All emphases are mine.<br /><br />Nabataeans were never Aramaic speakers beyond as a second language. Their mother tongue and daily spoken language was Arabic.<br /><br /><i>The Aramaic language in the region developed locally which means there had to have already been Aramaic speakers in the region (the, aforementioned, Idumaens...those who were not assimilated by the Jews and those who did not become refugees in Egypt) when Nabateans came in and later overwhelmed them.</i><br /><br />You are wrong. We don't have any evidence of North Arabia ever being an Aramaic-speaking land, some northern parts of it were once Canaanite-speaking (e.g., Idumaeans a.k.a Edomites, who were Canaanite-speaking, not Aramaic-speaking) before switching to Arabic already during pre-Islamic times, but no evidence of ever being Aramaic-speaking. Nabataeans wrote in Aramaic because by that time Aramaic had become the lingua franca and most widely spoken language in the Levant and Mesopotamia and, as I explained in my previous post, Arabic was not a written language yet.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-32559720391114120742013-03-08T22:25:41.383+02:002013-03-08T22:25:41.383+02:00Hello, Onur!
Rereading statements and I didn'...Hello, Onur!<br /><br />Rereading statements and I didn't read where it said that Aramaic was spoken in North Arabia to the exclusion of Old North Arabian or that North Arabia was an Aramaic speaking region. <br /><br />There is confusion, but it is not on the part of the commentators.<br /><br />What was said was that there was contact (linguistic, trade and commerce) between Aramaic speakers and North Arabians. There are Aramaic names attested in some North Arabian inscriptions. That did not say that Aramaic was the language of North Arabia. The Nabateans were likely from the Hejaz region and spoke some form of North Arabian. The Aramaic language in the region developed locally which means there had to have already been Aramaic speakers in the region (the, aforementioned, Idumaens...those who were not assimilated by the Jews and those who did not become refugees in Egypt) when Nabateans came in and later overwhelmed them. Given that Idumea was conquered by the Jews during the Hasmonean dynasty , there may have been a minority of Hebrew speakers there also.<br /><br />As for the rest of what you said about the Nabatean script...I already said that.<br /><br />So, again, if there is confusion, it is not on the part of the commentators.AdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-74463818428831892772013-03-08T05:35:40.321+02:002013-03-08T05:35:40.321+02:00There is some confusion among the commenters of th...There is some confusion among the commenters of this thread on the linguistic landscape of North Arabia. North Arabia has never been an Aramaic-speaking region. Aramaic was only the written language there, the spoken language being Arabic. The Arabic writing developed only a few centuries prior to Islam, and it was exclusively used for writing short and simple inscriptions and taking notes, high culture writings such as books, letters, legal writings and monumental inscriptions remaining to be exclusively written in Aramaic, prior to Islam (the Quran is probably the first book written in Arabic). Nabataeans were Arab, spoke Arabic, and used Aramaic only for writing or to communicate with the Aramaic-speaking foreigners to their north.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-53345431886081098972013-03-07T23:24:07.106+02:002013-03-07T23:24:07.106+02:00Hi, Creative!
Modern day geopolitics in the regio...Hi, Creative!<br /><br />Modern day geopolitics in the region is very, very messy. Don't want to get into that.<br /><br />Also, I was not arguing who had the biggest temples...just showing that the Jews had an ancient and "sizable" presence there. The Jews, for a time, ruled over Gaza (or at least part it) in the very late BCE era under the Hasmoneans.<br /><br />I am in complete agreement with you about the southern Levant. The North Arabian Arabs via Nabatea made Gaza quite wealthy...many of them lived there also. So we should expect to see genetic contributions from the North Arabian Arabs, but also from Northern Egypt. I wish Egypt had been part of this study. I think Northern Egyptians were more similar to northern Levantines than to southern ones. Southern Egyptians would be more similar to Arabians and NE Africans, both with a pull toward the Berbers or Arabized Berbers of the Maghreb. <br /><br />About the origins of Yah, the Kenite Hypothesis is an interesting tack...but it raises some problems and questions.<br /><br />The relationship between Hebrew and Aramaic is pretty straightforward. Hebrew is, linguistically, a first cousin to Aramaic and more of a second cousin to Ancient North Arabian. We know that the Aramaeans had long contact with the North Arabians because names found in some Ancient North Arabian inscriptions are of Aramaic derivation. We also know that the Nabateans were Aramaic speakers and then almost seemlessly transitioned to a North Arabian language as more North Arabians moved in that region and influenced the language. A cursive form of the Nabatean script later developed into Arabic script. We also know that North Arabians lived as far north as Syria as attested from from epigraphic South Arabian inscriptions and "graffiti" (Safaitic...of 3 varieties) used to write Ancient North Arabian languages. I think the Itureans, known as J/Yetur in the Bible (quite possibly North Arabian) lived that far north.<br /><br />To me, it is quite clear that there is a northern Levantine component in the Palestians, but it is admixed with North Arabians as would explain the Palestinians being intermediate between north Levantines and North Arabians, but closer to the North Arabians because of historical Pre-Islamic and post-Islamic conquest movements that we mentioned earlier. I also think it may depend on which Palestinians you test. Just like with the Jews...there is some variation within the population.<br /><br />Again, we agree on the southern Levant.AdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-32436949747355987462013-03-07T20:35:21.266+02:002013-03-07T20:35:21.266+02:00@ Slumberry
"but I think Palestinians are no...@ Slumberry<br /><br />"but I think Palestinians are not really the straight descendants of the ancient non-Jew local population of the area, so they do not have strong genetic bonds with the Jews from that time."<br /><br />Exactly, that is the implication that I find so astonishing.mr. Knows Whenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02921223637002057269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-83454511110932684462013-03-07T08:41:29.556+02:002013-03-07T08:41:29.556+02:00The Gaza synagogue was a Byzantine period synagogu...The Gaza synagogue was a Byzantine period synagogue. The largest and oldest mosque in Gaza is actually the former temple of Dagon/Marnas. And depending on the viewpoint, still is.<br />Indeed, Gaza was at the end of the Arabian spice road so naturally everyone and especially Nabataeans and Arabs had a vital interest in Gaza as a seaport.Even Herodotus mentions a city called Jenysus “Khan Yunis “ (near Gaza) that was ruled by Arabian Kings. <br /><br />By Herodotus Written 440 B.C.E <br />Book III <br />Thalia<br />http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.3.iii.html<br /><i>Now the only entrance into Egypt is by this desert: the country from Phoenicia to the borders of the city Cadytis belongs to the people called the Palaestine Syrians; from Cadytis, which it appears to me is a city almost as large as Sardis, the marts upon the coast till you reach Jenysus are the Arabian king's; after Jenysus the Syrians again come in, and extend to Lake Serbonis, near the place where Mount Casius juts out into the sea. At Lake Serbonis, where the tale goes that Typhon hid himself, Egypt begins. Now the whole tract between Jenysus on the one side, and Lake Serbonis and Mount Casius on the other, and this is no small space, being as much as three days' journey, is a dry desert without a drop of water. </i><br /><br />Seriously, if one leaves modern day geopolitical issues aside it is truly surprising to see how deeply Semitic nomadic pastoralists are interwoven with the history of the southern Levant. Which makes me wonder about later Aramaic and Arabic speaking groups of Pre-Islamic Arabia and their relation to the original Hebrews. Especially regarding YHWH and his Midian north Arabian connection.Katharóshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16649693310029639154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-68126292176831905402013-03-06T21:52:28.329+02:002013-03-06T21:52:28.329+02:00Hi, Creative!
Been a long time, haha
I am quite ...Hi, Creative!<br /><br />Been a long time, haha<br /><br />I am quite certain that the Philistines fail to be mentioned after the Babylonian conquest. All the sources I checked pretty much agree with that. All of them follow the line of the Philistines being completely absorbed or assimilated (by Canaanitic culture and language). One can reasonably presume that there was a great deal of intermixing (Jews are known to do that despite Biblical prohibitions). There were many Jews in Gaza before and after the conquest, especially, after (the Aegean element never more than half of it's population) and it is no secret that Jews had a tendency to worship "foreign" gods. You read that throughout the Bible and in extra-Biblical sources. We must also take into account that not all Jews left Israel at that time long after the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem. Many Jews followed Christianity at that time also. <br /><br />The "Marna/s" you mention in your link seems to have been associated with a Cretan deity, a type of Hellenistic Dagon. The etymology of Marna/s seems to be firmly Semitic (Aramaic) though referring to a Cretan deity. I read a source about how Marna/s was associated with the Arabs of that day.<br /><br />I have found no source that says that Gaza was anti-Jewish. In fact, the opposite. The Jewish presence in Gaza is well-attested through ancient times. In fact, in the 4th century (301AD/ CE to 400AD/ CE), Gaza served as the primary port of commerce for the Jews of the Holy Land. Also, a 6th (501AD/ CE to 600AD/ CE) century mosaic from a large synagogue was found on the seashore in Gaza. A direct attestation to the "sizeable" Jewish population of that region.<br /><br />The Christians were a presence since Christianity's earliest days...not much welcome, but they were there. <br /><br />As an unrelated side note, I should have also mentioned the long Egyptian presence in the Levant in my first post. A presence that extended into modern times. Also the long time Aegean connection to the ME. <br /><br />To bring this back around to the topic at hand, the Jews SHOULD clearly evince some relation to the Italians and Greeks...the Southern Italians have plentiful Greek ancestry and it can be extended to even central Italy...Lazio (where Rome is). The populations of Greece and the Aegean have had a long history of contact with the ME. Since we know that...why do people want to say that Jews are Italians and Greeks??? There where not many converts to Judaism from Greece or Italy because of the strength of Christianity in those places. Since Constantine, the rights of the Jews were greatly restricted.<br />http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/jewish/jews-romanlaw.asp<br /><br />We need to be much less simplistic because the history of the Jews is not so simplistic. Beyond the Jews, the history of the ME is not so simplistic.AdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-6658679928941139112013-03-06T18:42:36.609+02:002013-03-06T18:42:36.609+02:00 Some of the comments on this posting serve to s... Some of the comments on this posting serve to self demonstrate the need of a better understanding of the Levantine genetic and memetic contribution to our culture and the world. Something that was blacked out by the Greco-Roman cannon adopted in the occident after the dark ages.<br /> <br /> IMPORTANT OBSERVATION: Nobody has noticed that we are talking here about culturally segregationist human groups. Whose customs prevailed until today in not so rare a case.<br />fmgarzamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17098537658554631893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-60734183607564400622013-03-06T13:16:46.886+02:002013-03-06T13:16:46.886+02:00I think ultimately the southern Levant stands stro...I think ultimately the southern Levant stands strong in a consecutive historical Middle-Eastern/Afro-Asiatic context. <br /><br />If indeed Jewish populations absorbed coastal populations is questionable, the city state of Gaza for instance was pagan and anti Jewish & Christian throughout history till they were forced to convert to Christianity in 407 A.D.<br /><br />Marnas<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagon<br />Katharóshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16649693310029639154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-56875312821566381972013-03-05T21:08:35.334+02:002013-03-05T21:08:35.334+02:00I find it interesting that so many are desperate t...I find it interesting that so many are desperate to place the Jews outside the ME...When if the Jews are that closely related to both Druze populations, the Lebanese, and the Cypriots...then they are obviously not terribly foreign-derived. One can very reasonably presume that the original Canaanites were more similar to the modern Lebanese and Druze than any other populations...that includes the "Palestinians".<br /><br />The reason why the Cypriots are so closely related to the Northern Levantine populations is quite simply a matter of history. Cyprus/ Alashiya has had long contact with that region of the ME dating back to Ugarit (a NW Semitic polity) in the written record, but likely starting even before then. The Phoenicians were next in colonizing that island...at least the eastern parts. Cyprus/ Alashiya had trade contacts as far east as Akkad and Sumer.<br /><br />The Canaanites occupied the more northerly parts of Canaan down as far as Jerusalem and it's surroundings. The population thinned out south of Jerusalem. Among the Canaanites were Hurrians and Anatolian Indo-Europeans as well (Northern ME populations).<br /><br />It is a well-known fact of history that there were several depopulations, movements, and replacements of Canaanitic peoples from that region during the Assyrian, Babylonian, Hellenistic, and Roman eras. Many Canaanite populations fail to be recollected, especially, after the Babylonian conquest. The Phoenicians largely escaped being replaced, moved, or depopulated, though, they lost their language and culture. The genetically very closely related Amorites and Aramaens also escaped this (who may have in fact been the same people...we do not rightly know, however, there are some tantalizing clues) also escaped this. <br /><br />The Nabateans moved into the area inhabited by the Edomites (a Canaanitic people, later known as Idumaeans during the Hellenistic and Roman Eras) and established a strong trade polity. The Nabateans were, essentially, North Arabians who came to dominate the local Canaanitic population. Their language was likely that of the Old/ Ancient North Arabian type. Trade through that region and population movements are likely what caused the Palestinians as a whole to be divergent from the other Levantines. The Syrians are also affected by this, but to a lesser degree. The breakaway Palmyrene Empire drew trade away from Nabatea as the trading power of Nabatea waned under Rome. <br /><br />History attests to the depopulations, replacements, and movements of peoples. There were Romans and Greeks who lived in the Levant during the Hellenitic and Roman eras. The Philistines were likely of Aegean origin and later mostly absorbed by the Jews. These movements, especially, from Arabia and surrounding lands, continued well into the modern era reinforcing the genetics of the previous movements. We must also consider the genetic impact of the Crusaders.<br /><br />That is why you see the differences between the north and south in the Levant.<br /><br />This is but a snapshot of the history of the region...not intended to be exhaustive.AdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.com