tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post2741691093126043348..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: A rare look at the Y chromosomes of AfghanistanDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-11090133556919408702012-06-12T23:17:18.661+03:002012-06-12T23:17:18.661+03:00Andrew,It has to sample error on the B and M1 part...Andrew,It has to sample error on the B and M1 part. The strange thing is I also came across haplogroup O3 in Spain which is really weird. It's really strange that R1b1b1-M73 it's found in high frequencies in this 2006 study Sengupta et al. (2006) with an frequency of 32% but it's found 0% in this study of yours. Also Haplogroup O3 another marker that came from Mongols it's not on your study but it's 8% in this Hazara study. I don't know about the other groups, but something is definitely wrong with this Hazara study. <br /><br />Sengupta et al. (2006), <br />10/25 = 40% C3-M217 <br />1/25 = 4% I2b1b-M379<br />1/25 = 4% J2a-M410<br />2/25 = 8% O3-M122<br />1/25 = 4% Q1a1-M120<br />1/25 = 4% Q1b-M378<br />8/25 = 32% R1b1b1-M73<br />1/25 = 4% R2-M124MasterBoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05116351276222734924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-20627974646639151722012-04-07T09:14:36.131+03:002012-04-07T09:14:36.131+03:00Joshua Lipson said,
"Once again, the G2c of...Joshua Lipson said,<br /> <br />"Once again, the G2c of Ashkenazi fame in a Pashtun sample."<br /><br />In this study, G2c-M377 has been detected only in a sample of five Pashtuns from Maidan Wardak Province of east-central Afghanistan:<br /><br />Pashtun/Wardak Province, Afghanistan<br />3/5 G2c-M377<br />1/5 L1c-M357<br />1/5 R1a1a-M17(xM458)<br /><br />In general, the Y-DNA pool of the Pashtuns of Afghanistan seems to be characterized by a high frequency of R1a1a-M17(xM458), with a minority of males belonging to L1c-M357. The Pashtuns of a small but densely populated area of east-central Afghanistan in the vicinity of the national capital, Kabul, exhibit an unusual concentration of haplogroup Q-M242(xM378,MEH2), along with some haplogroup H-M69. The high frequency of G2c-M377 in this study's small sample of Pashtuns from Wardak Province is probably just a fluke.Ebizurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16925110639823856429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-37333205706303995862012-04-05T17:07:18.432+03:002012-04-05T17:07:18.432+03:00I understand your point, but if not haplogroup E, ...I understand your point, but if not haplogroup E, then what might be considered a genetic trace of the (supposedly numerous) Greek inhabitants of Seleucid Bactria and latterly the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom? Neither E-V13 nor R1b-M269, two of the most frequently occurring Y-DNA haplogroups in modern Greek populations, is found with significant frequency in modern populations that inhabit the territories of the ancient Greek(-influenced) kingdoms of South-Central Asia.<br /><br />Perhaps some subclade(s) of haplogroup J2?Ebizurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16925110639823856429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-91751787020473648032012-04-05T13:22:44.111+03:002012-04-05T13:22:44.111+03:00There is no reason to presume a Greek origin of th...<i>There is no reason to presume a Greek origin of the haplogroup E Y-DNA found in this study's samples from Afghanistan. </i><br /><br />The point is that because haplogroup E has a variable frequency in Greek populations, its relative absence cannot be interpreted as a lack of Greek input in these populations, since we do not know whether it was existent/frequent in all ancient Greek populations.<br /><br />The argument: "No E, or No E-V13 => No Greek influence" presupposes that E and E-V13 would be present in the relavant ancient Greek populations (principally Macedonians and Ionian Greeks), for which we do not have actual data.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-25443270027702315282012-04-05T12:30:37.894+03:002012-04-05T12:30:37.894+03:00Dienekes wrote,
"From the paper:
The E1b1b1...Dienekes wrote,<br /><br />"From the paper:<br /><br />The E1b1b1-M35 lineages in some Pakistani Pashtun were previously traced to a Greek origin brought by Alexander's invasions [48]. However, RM network of E1b1b1-M35 found that Afghanistan's lineages are correlated with Middle Easterners and Iranians but not with populations from the Balkans.<br />Greek populations are not homogeneous in their haplogroup E frequencies, so it would be useful to consider the possibility that the lack of this frequent Southeastern European haplogroup in South Asia may not reflect a complete lack of Greek influence in this region, but rather, an influence from a structured ancient Greek population."<br /><br />There is no reason to presume a Greek origin of the haplogroup E Y-DNA found in this study's samples from Afghanistan. Only one of the five Afghanistani haplogroup E individuals, an E1b1b1a1-M78(xV12,V22,V65) Uzbek from Mazar-e Sharif, Balkh Province in northernmost Afghanistan (near the border with Surkhandarya Province of Uzbekistan and Khatlon Province of Tajikistan), may possibly belong to E-V13, the clade that is quite common in modern Greeks and other populations of southeastern Europe. The other three Uzbeks from Mazar-e Sharif sampled in this study belong to haplogroups N1-LLY22g, R1a1a-M17(xM458), and R1b1a2-M269(xU106).<br /><br />As for the other haplogroup E individuals, one is a Baloch whose father is from Nimruz Province of southwesternmost Afghanistan and who belongs to the E1b1b1a1c-V22 subclade, and the remaining three individuals are Hazaras whose fathers are from Balkh, Samangan, or Baghlan, three contiguous provinces in northern Afghanistan near the border with Uzbekistan and Tajikistan. These three Hazaras belong to the E1b1b1c1-M34 subclade, which, as I am sure you know, is common among Semites and other populations in the vicinity of Southwest Asia, but not among Greeks.Ebizurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16925110639823856429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-83470595250585943462012-03-31T12:30:09.546+03:002012-03-31T12:30:09.546+03:00Q* among Pashtuns and Tadjiks looks like Q1b-L275 ...Q* among Pashtuns and Tadjiks looks like Q1b-L275 found in north India and some Tatars.<br />The Hazara Q1b-M378 is not very far from Q1b-L245 found among jews and some westerns.mregdnahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08210210663227034644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-42565563578794402562012-03-31T11:53:47.409+03:002012-03-31T11:53:47.409+03:00No more multiple posting, please.No more multiple posting, please.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-30982977160444698042012-03-31T09:05:06.217+03:002012-03-31T09:05:06.217+03:00Once again, the infamous G2c-M377 pops up yet agai...Once again, the infamous G2c-M377 pops up yet again.<br /><br />Since G2c-M377 is 2% of Mesitzos from Merida Mexico, ~5-10% of Ashkenazi Jews, and about 6% of Pathans (of the Ghori tribes, and their descendants among other tribes like Afridis) then maybe the <a href="http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/mitt-romney-millions-mormon-church/story?id=15380149" rel="nofollow">"interested" parties</a> would like to PAY for a FTDNA 454 Y full sequence test for a Ashkenazi G2c-M377 that matches them, and a Pathan G2c1-M283s. Or maybe find a G2c-M377 from Merida and test him instead.<br /><br />No, I never said "Nephites". No one believes that. Yucatan? <br />It's all about "Family History" and those nice "Centers". It's a free public genealogical service, with no other motivations in mind.<br /><br />I mean, for 1 months salary of one librarian ...Ted Kandellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13245279435975443065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-18405434329006412022012-03-31T04:47:53.578+03:002012-03-31T04:47:53.578+03:00Which study shows R1a1a-M17 in Pontic-Caspian step...Which study shows R1a1a-M17 in Pontic-Caspian steppe???<br /><br />The only study I'm aware of shows R1a1a-M17 in Poland and Germany.sidoroffshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00947879951567311038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-73817941036340048692012-03-31T04:29:40.214+03:002012-03-31T04:29:40.214+03:00R-M17 is only populous in South Asia in nomadic or...R-M17 is only populous in South Asia in nomadic or recently nomadic populations, but in agricultural populations it is much much much less common.<br /><br />I'd be extremely surprised if its' Aryan link is ever disproved...sidoroffshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00947879951567311038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-27642143216520485612012-03-31T04:25:51.520+03:002012-03-31T04:25:51.520+03:00I think they shouldn't have included populatio...I think they shouldn't have included populations with extremely low sample sizes.<br /><br />Now this will get duplicated times and times over over the internet "Turkmens 100% R1a1a"...sidoroffshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00947879951567311038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-18869994699639695152012-03-30T21:34:29.623+03:002012-03-30T21:34:29.623+03:00Great study!
Here we can see the haplogroups of t...Great study!<br /><br />Here we can see the haplogroups of the REAL Uzbeks.<br /><br />The Uzbeks which are in Uzbekistan now are actually Tajiks renamed into "Uzbeks".sidoroffshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00947879951567311038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-27266337573280701032012-03-29T21:57:44.167+03:002012-03-29T21:57:44.167+03:00@moreisbetter The coincidence of Y-DNA hg I gener...@moreisbetter The coincidence of Y-DNA hg I generally, and I-M26 in particular, with the geographic expanse of the meaglithic culture is not as wonderful as you would suggest. Many megalithic centers (Portugal, Wales, England, Scottish Isles, and South Sweden) have only trace (less than 1%) I-M26 (pre Rootsi 2004), but it makes up more than 40% of the male Sardinian population. It is not found in Norway, among the Danes or among the Dutch that had megaliths. Also I-M26 is found at appreciable frequencies in places in the interior of France and North Africa that lack megalithic ties (e.g. Macedonia and the Czech Republic) at percentages greater than some megalithic areas. Different Y-DNA I haplogroups are predominant in many places where I-M26 is found at mere trace levels, and many of these regions have a great diversity of quite distant Y-DNA hg I clades.<br /><br />Elite dominance can make sense as a theory and perhaps even in Afghanistan. But, there seem to be lots of instances where we see what looks like more than an elite dominance impact in Indo-European influenced areas, so looking to trace impacts in a place that had lots of traders passing through for millenia seems like a weak strategy for demonstrating that.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-84540762152331776622012-03-29T20:02:13.120+03:002012-03-29T20:02:13.120+03:00I'm impressed that the same has some R1a, R1b,...I'm impressed that the same has some R1a, R1b, R2 and R*, as well as F* (with R, of course, derived from F). Afghanistan has to be located close to the root of Y-DNA hg R in general to sport that kind of diversity.<br /><br />The H and L are quintessenitally South Asian, with L quite common in the sample. L and R2 both have Indus River Valley distributions, and a plausible source of both in Afghanistan would be late Harappan during the period when the Harappans established BMAC trade colonies to the Northwest of the Indus River Valley.<br /><br />"The prevailing Y-chromosome lineage in Pashtun and Tajik (R1a1a-M17), <i>has the highest observed diversity among populations of the Indus Valley.</i> R1a1a-M17 diversity declines toward the Pontic-Caspian steppe where the mid-Holocene R1a1a7-M458 sublineage is dominant. R1a1a7-M458 was absent in Afghanistan, suggesting that R1a1a-M17 does not support, as previously thought, expansions from the Pontic Steppe, bringing the Indo-European languages to Central Asia and India."<br /><br />The notion of R1a1a-M17 being an Indus River Valley marker, together with R2 and L, is certainly suggestive, again, of a lot of Afghanistan having a genetic source as a Harappan colony. Prior to Harappan agriculture adapted for the Afghan high desert by the BMAC civilization (and perhaps a predecessor or two), Afghanistan would only have been able to support a thin, semi-nomadic population that could easily have drifted to somewhere else in Central Asia or Iran after facing population pressure from Harappan colonist farmers, so the notion of the current population of Afghanistan being traceable to that era isn't implausible. And, an elite dominance impact from Central Asian/SW European Indo-Europeans makes much more sense if they are absorbing a farming civilization, than a bunch of semi-nomadic herders or hunter-gatherers. Farmers stay stuck to the land.<br /><br />Hard to know what to make of the three (relatively geographically close but genetically distinct) men with Y-DNA hg B, an East African/Paleoafrican marker. My best guess would be remnants from the Indian Ocean trade who continued to follow their cargo on a Silk Road caravan. Because of the Silk Road, Afghanistan was cosmopolitan part of the ancient world as its blend of Eastern and Western Y-DNA hgs suggest. But if so, why isn't there Y-DNA hg T, so common on the Indian Ocean coast of Africa? Then again, a low frequency Y-DNA hg could easily be omitted in a sample of this size due to random sampling issues.<br /><br />"E1b1b1-M35 found that Afghanistan's lineages are correlated with Middle Easterners and Iranians."<br /><br />I would have expected a more African E1b1b1 marker.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-51011655656990264952012-03-29T10:23:11.784+03:002012-03-29T10:23:11.784+03:00I agree, a bit of a missed opportunity, again, by ...I agree, a bit of a missed opportunity, again, by not drilling down deep enough into the sub-groups.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-30208039382529873282012-03-29T07:52:42.630+03:002012-03-29T07:52:42.630+03:00Dienekes raises important points on elite dominanc...Dienekes raises important points on elite dominance and the tiny signature it would leave in most cases.<br /><br />Dare I say that the percentages are so small that there is a bias toward studying the more widespread haplogroups? Certainly this bias exists in the "genetic genealogy" boards where theories on how R1b males as the Ueber-race are common. (Nevermind that it is the most common Hg of the posters, hahaha).<br /><br />If one reads one's Cavalli-Sforza and Cunliffe, one finds a decades old prediction for the spread and distribution of western Eurooean megalithic culture, and subsequent genetic data indicate this matches the distribution of I-M26. Simply put, I-M26 males can be found currently in every town, port, and township where a megalith can be found, at a frequency of 1-3% -- a stunning coincidence. And there are other promising theories, resting on elite dominance, for several other minor clades. But by and large the focus remains on the major clades.mooreisbetterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17522884275516185288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-2130674352788236172012-03-29T03:40:56.752+03:002012-03-29T03:40:56.752+03:00I think Iran is pretty much on the list for early ...I think Iran is pretty much on the list for early R1a.<br /><br />R1a* (virtually a rare lineage that split off the mainstream tree right after the first R1a came to existance) was found in Iran, Anatolia, Italy, Germany, France, Britain. Quiet facinating "marching route".<br /><br /><br />But there is this problem:<br /><br />R1a1a* (rare lineage that split of the maintree short after M17 came to existance) was found in Britain, France, Germany, Spain, Italy and Yugoslavia.<br /><br />Makes it look like M17 started existance in Western Europe. But maybe its just an oddity created by drift (exotic M17 vannished from all other places exept Western Europe) + sample bias on Western europe.Fantyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07969348276219179258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-31484905638682710392012-03-29T02:27:15.309+03:002012-03-29T02:27:15.309+03:00@Joshua,
Interesting!
I saw a documentary years ...@Joshua,<br /><br />Interesting!<br /><br />I saw a documentary years ago that identified the Pathans (aka Pashtuns, Pashtoons) as one of the 10 Lost Tribes...pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-84179859099917070532012-03-28T23:33:29.685+03:002012-03-28T23:33:29.685+03:00Once again, the G2c of Ashkenazi fame in a Pashtun...Once again, the G2c of Ashkenazi fame in a Pashtun sample.Joshua Lipsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02315913670679395734noreply@blogger.com