tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post2394213602786053270..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: First assessment of 1000 Genomes Iberian Spanish (IBS) sub-populationsDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-75909368698123991102011-12-29T03:38:31.564+02:002011-12-29T03:38:31.564+02:00Dionekes
"The link to megalithic monuments is...Dionekes<br />"The link to megalithic monuments is quite interesting, because it is indeed the case that heavy stone blocks simply cannot be transported without some kind of rolling device: dragging is not an option."<br /><br />Yes, the clip at the top of this page shows the second technique better.<br /><br />http://www.theforgottentechnology.com/newpage1<br /><br />You could even imagine most of the crew who were moving the stone standing on top where the counter-weight is and acting as the counter-weight themselves.<br /><br />So five guys stand on top acting as the counter-weight while one guy spins it around the first pivot stone moving the block a few feet in the right direction. The counter-weight crew move a little more to the left so the stone tips up and the pusher can place another pivot stone a few feet to the right of the first one. The counter-weight crew then walk to the right edge until the block is balanced on the second pivot stone and the pusher spins it again: six men, three feet per spin, five spins per minute, one mile in six hours, two miles a day on flat terrain.<br /><br />Not so great uphill obviously but pivot stones could definitely be a candidate for "derived from words for ‘to turn around’".Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-58095517575589239422011-12-28T11:12:28.210+02:002011-12-28T11:12:28.210+02:00Turkish and Hungarian affected a very minor portio...Turkish and Hungarian affected a very minor portion of the agricultural zone, despite being large organized military confederations.<br /><br />Those who think that Chalcolithic peoples from the steppes achieved a task that was a couple of orders of magnitude greater (Indo-Europeanizing Europe, India, and Iran) have their work cut out for them.<br /><br /><i>I didn’t say that – of course the large migration can also have been spread a new language. It was just prior to the spread of IE, and therefore the later minor migration which also spread a language (in this case IE) has wiped out the earlier language of the major Neolithic migration. </i><br /><br />No, the early Neolithic migration apparently did not bring most of the existing Y-haplogroups into Europe. That goes down to 5,000 years ago (Treilles and Oetzi). So, there must have been at least one major migration episode into Europe to account for the fact that G2a is no longer the dominant haplogroup there.<br /><br />In short: the model of Paleolithic+Neolithic+minor Steppe IE does not fit the evidence.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-9382465717329684942011-12-28T05:14:21.850+02:002011-12-28T05:14:21.850+02:00Dienekes:
“The burden of proof is on those who thi...Dienekes:<br />“The burden of proof is on those who think that a minor migration brought Indo-European languages to Europe to identify that migration and to show why a minor migration would replace European languages, whereas a major one didn't.”<br /><br />I didn’t say that – of course the large migration can also have been spread a new language. It was just prior to the spread of IE, and therefore the later minor migration which also spread a language (in this case IE) has wiped out the earlier language of the major Neolithic migration. <br /><br />And it is also possible that a language of the major migration did not succeed to spread it language while a minor migration did – it is a sociolinguistic matter if people shift their language or not, it is NOT purely a matter of number of speakers only.<br /><br />I’m just telling you that there is absolutely no basis to connect the spread of IE language to a great migration only because it was a great migration! There are plenty of possible options, and we must choose the one fitting to the LINGUISTIC results. And these results tell us that the dispersal of PIE was a Bronze Age phenomenon, not a Neolithic one.<br /> <br />Dienekes:<br />“Those who imagine minor migrations from the steppes as changing the linguistic landscape of Europe have a difficult task, because in all recorded history there have been repeated invasions of Europe (and China, Iran, and India) from the direction of the steppe, most of them by highly organized horse cavalry societies that could mobilize thousands of warriors and the logistic support for them. Nonetheless, none of these sophisticated invasions could effect linguistic change in anything but a tiny portion of the densely populated agricultural zones.”<br /><br />None? Remember the cases like Turkish and Hungarian. A minor migration is enough.Jaakko Häkkinenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03088022045546791438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-51230027344845729232011-12-26T17:46:28.108+02:002011-12-26T17:46:28.108+02:00@Grey,
Thanks for the links. The link to megalith...@Grey,<br /><br />Thanks for the links. The link to megalithic monuments is quite interesting, because it is indeed the case that heavy stone blocks simply cannot be transported without some kind of rolling device: dragging is not an option.<br /><br />Even the wheel itself is probably older than its first appearance in figurative art. If you think about how many pieces of prehistoric tech can be found in prehistoric art, a great part of the toolkit is simply missing. <br /><br />Wheels of some sort also played an important role in toys, long before the technology came into wide practical application. A good example of this is paper planes, that were used as toys long before man discovered how to use flight for practical purposes, or the even more sophisticated rockets and "powered birds" of the ancient Chinese and Greeks. All of the above existed long before the invention of aeroplanes. <br /><br />It is quite likely that mankind had rolling round objects for either practical or entertainment purposes, and the notion that "wheel" can only have originally described the wheels of a vehicle is little more than speculation.<br /><br /><i>You just cannot think that the greatest migration must have been the IE one – why should it be?</i><br /><br />The burden of proof is on those who think that a minor migration brought Indo-European languages to Europe to identify that migration and to show why a minor migration would replace European languages, whereas a major one didn't.<br /><br />Those who imagine minor migrations from the steppes as changing the linguistic landscape of Europe have a difficult task, because in all recorded history there have been repeated invasions of Europe (and China, Iran, and India) from the direction of the steppe, most of them by highly organized horse cavalry societies that could mobilize thousands of warriors and the logistic support for them. Nonetheless, none of these sophisticated invasions could effect linguistic change in anything but a tiny portion of the densely populated agricultural zones.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-20300621288841211302011-12-26T16:29:00.652+02:002011-12-26T16:29:00.652+02:00If people were moving large blocks of stone to rel...If people were moving large blocks of stone to religous sites before the wheel e.g.<br /><br />http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-F5vdr6_BHFI/TVt44aSxxUI/AAAAAAAAEFM/SCPIKpq9sVw/s1600/gobekli_tepe04_02.jpg<br /><br />Then they'd need ways of doing it e.g<br /><br />http://cdn.physorg.com/newman/gfx/news/hires/frencharchae.jpg<br /><br />or<br /><br />Link to a site positing covering stonehenge stones in a kind of basket for rolling.<br /><br />http://thereifixedit.failblog.org/2010/12/16/white-trash-repairs-historical-thursday-stonehenge-construction-theories/<br /><br />(The comments underneath contain an interesting point that the quarries where the stones were cut wouldn't likely have hundreds of men hanging round just to move huge blocks of stone short distances around the quarry so maybe they'd have a very simple.)<br /><br />combine that with<br /><br />Link to a video of a guy in Michigan moving large blocks on his own using pivot stones (c. 1 minute in)<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pCvx5gSnfW4<br /><br />combined with<br /><br />http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/scotlandballs.htm<br /><br />"The six projections, and roughened surface of this Greenstone ball are typical of the majority of carved stone balls. Almost half of all known carved balls have six projections and most were not finished to the high standard of the 'Towie' ball"<br /><br />The six projections would be an easy way of getting close to a round shape. Something like that could be used as a pivot stone.<br /><br />Maybe that's the original "wheel".<br /><br />###<br /><br />Entertaining speculation anyway.<br /><br />If so a geography base IE language split might go something like:<br /><br />http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/7210/languagetree.jpgGreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-81078821747660291952011-12-26T13:36:24.314+02:002011-12-26T13:36:24.314+02:00Dienekes:
“Round, cyclical and rolling things abou...Dienekes:<br />“Round, cyclical and rolling things abound in nature. There is absolutely no sound reason to think that the PIE word for "wheel" referred originally to a human device.”<br /><br />Then how is it possible that two words for ‘wheel’ (*kwekwlos and *hurgi) are derived from words for ‘to turn around’ and have a meaning ‘wheel’ attested in different branches? They are not derived from a word for ‘round object’, so your excuses are not valid. <br /><br />Dienekes:<br />Thanks for the reminder, but a spread that does not involve a mass migration requires a different reason to justify why it became established over a wide area in the first place. There is simply no evidence in the archaeological record of steppe influence in Iran, India, Anatolia, or most of Europe. <br /><br />Not a single homeland theory can directly explain all the later IE areas archaeologically. This is because the expansion of a language proceeded in many steps. To South Asia the expansion did happen through Bactria-Margiana, to Anatolia through Bulgaria, To West Europe through Corded Ware Culture (which actually had a clear steppe influence).<br /><br />Dienekes:<br />And, remember, that we _do_ have to invoke a substantial migration to account for changes since the early Neolithic in Europe. So, when we have strong indications of mass migration into Europe since the early Neolithic, there is an obvious candidate for the agents of Indo-Europeanization: the bearers of all those haplogroups that haven't turned up yet in an early Neolithic context.<br /><br />You have no basis to connect the IE language on these. Take haplogroups as haplogroups. You just cannot think that the greatest migration must have been the IE one – why should it be? There may have been many other linguistic expansions to Europe before the IE expansion, it surely was not the first one. <br /><br />It seems that you have forgotten all the lost languages and see only the IE language which happened to survive.Jaakko Häkkinenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03088022045546791438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-86710193222916284612011-12-24T14:13:09.992+02:002011-12-24T14:13:09.992+02:00Oh, really? Other kinds of wheels are not signific...<i>Oh, really? Other kinds of wheels are not significantly older, either.</i><br /><br />Round, cyclical and rolling things abound in nature. There is absolutely no sound reason to think that the PIE word for "wheel" referred originally to a human device.<br /><br /><i>Try to remember that a language spread does not require a mass migration. Therefore gene flow cannot prove nor disprove expansion of a language. Genetic results cannot disprove the linguistic results. It is enough if we find just a single genetic lineage spreading from the steppe at the right time – all the other lineages may well have spread from other directions at other times, yet they are irrelevant.</i><br /><br />Thanks for the reminder, but a spread that does not involve a mass migration requires a different reason to justify why it became established over a wide area in the first place. There is simply no evidence in the archaeological record of steppe influence in Iran, India, Anatolia, or most of Europe. <br /><br />And, remember, that we _do_ have to invoke a substantial migration to account for changes since the early Neolithic in Europe. So, when we have strong indications of mass migration into Europe since the early Neolithic, there is an obvious candidate for the agents of Indo-Europeanization: the bearers of all those haplogroups that haven't turned up yet in an early Neolithic context.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-64382840923553522292011-12-24T11:54:24.636+02:002011-12-24T11:54:24.636+02:00Eurologist:
“Carts were drawn by ox, instead. And ...Eurologist:<br />“Carts were drawn by ox, instead. And vocabulary of technology - through the ages - easily spreads though unrelated languages.”<br /><br />Those IE wheel- and wagon-related words have REGULAR sound correspondences. That means that they cannot have been spread from one language to another thousands of years after the Proto-Indo-European stage. They must be inherited from PIE. That means: PIE cannot be older than the inventing of the wheel.<br /><br />Dienekes:<br />“There is no reason to think that the PIE words for wheel refer to the wheels used for transportation specifically.”<br /><br />Oh, really? Other kinds of wheels are not significantly older, either.<br /><br />Dienekes:<br />“And, as a matter of fact, there is no word for wheel in PIE:<br />http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=999<br />"So though the Hittite and Tocharian words are probably derived from the same PIE root, it seems clear that they were derived independently—and that obviously offers no support at all for a PIE word for ‘wheel’." “<br /><br />Interesting, but your source states also:<br />“In the current state of our knowledge, the most we can say is that the common ancestor of the non-Anatolian branches had a word for wheel (which of course could have been invented not long before the pre-Tocharians took off for the Altai).”<br /><br />So, Late Proto-Indo-European (Anatolian already split off) still must be a young stage of language. Anatolian could not have split off thousands of years earlier, as it can be phonologically derived from quite a Late PIE-like system. <br /><br />Dienekes:<br />“What you are saying is that there _was_ substantial genetic inflow into steppe to reduce the East Eurasian mtDNA to trace levels, and there _was not_ substantial genetic outflow from the steppe to spread the same East Eurasian mtDNA around.<br />That doesn't seem like a strong argument for your theory. It seems to agree more with mine, that the steppe was Indo-Europeanized, rather than that it did the Indo-Europeanizing.”<br /><br />Try to remember that a language spread does not require a mass migration. Therefore gene flow cannot prove nor disprove expansion of a language. Genetic results cannot disprove the linguistic results. It is enough if we find just a single genetic lineage spreading from the steppe at the right time – all the other lineages may well have spread from other directions at other times, yet they are irrelevant.Jaakko Häkkinenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03088022045546791438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-30245407967617715752011-12-23T22:37:31.502+02:002011-12-23T22:37:31.502+02:00Looking again at a simple path of least resistance...Looking again at a simple path of least resistance model and trying to relate geography<br /><br />http://geology.com/world/europe.jpg<br /><br />and IE language splits<br /><br />http://www.dhushara.com/paradoxhtm/fall/indeur.jpg<br /><br />and following the simple rules:<br />1) start at gobekli<br />2) expand in all viable directions<br />3) follow water<br />4) avoid mountains<br /><br />what strikes me is simply looking at the geography there should be another split from the Pontic coast.<br /><br />If the sequence was<br />1) gobekli to pontic coast<br />2a) pontic coast to anatolia<br />2b) pontic coast to thessaly<br />2c) pontic coast to transcaucasus then east (Tocharian?)<br /><br />there should (simply for geographical reasons) also be a 2d) along the east side of the black sea to the pontic steppe. The obvious candidate for this would be the Iranic split except the language tree seems to say not.Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-63697364231847523392011-12-23T14:22:36.711+02:002011-12-23T14:22:36.711+02:00But the words for a wheel are already testimonial ...<i>But the words for a wheel are already testimonial enough: they cannot be older than the invention of a wheel. Even Anatolian and Tocharian share the word IE *hurgi ‘wheel’. So it is impossible that even Early PIE could have split very early, as the Anatolian homeland theory suggests.<br /></i><br /><br />There is no reason to think that the PIE words for wheel refer to the wheels used for transportation specifically.<br /><br />And, as a matter of fact, there is no word for wheel in PIE:<br /><br />http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=999<br /><br />"So though the Hittite and Tocharian words are probably derived from the same PIE root, it seems clear that they were derived independently—and that obviously offers no support at all for a PIE word for ‘wheel’."<br /><br /><i>1. That East Eurasian mtDNA can have been there for a long time, its carriers both genetically and linguistically Europeanized. <br />2. Language spread does not require massive migration.</i><br /><br />What you are saying is that there _was_ substantial genetic inflow into steppe to reduce the East Eurasian mtDNA to trace levels, and there _was not_ substantial genetic outflow from the steppe to spread the same East Eurasian mtDNA around.<br /><br />That doesn't seem like a strong argument for your theory. It seems to agree more with mine, that the steppe was Indo-Europeanized, rather than that it did the Indo-Europeanizing.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-25905712801352836462011-12-23T13:15:38.354+02:002011-12-23T13:15:38.354+02:00"I think it's easier to imagine the farme...<i>"I think it's easier to imagine the farmers moving along rivers or coasts hopping from one good farming site to the next until they reached a climatic limit for their current package."</i><br /><br />Grey,<br />That is indeed what happened in much of Central and Northern Europe (rivers). The sites are on the best (Loess) soils, and spread thinly along the tributaries - with only a very few jumps where necessary (e.g., north of the Danube, there are few East-West rivers in Germany).<br /><br />As to horses and carts: that vocabulary is ~3,000 - 4,000 years younger than IE itself. Also, horses played no role at all west of the Hungarian plains (i) because they are difficult and expensive to keep, and (ii) the terrain and climate wasn't suited to them. First horse ownership is by Celt elites in the very late bronze age/ early iron age, and even later (with Roman introduction) north of there. <br /><br />Carts were drawn by ox, instead. And vocabulary of technology - through the ages - easily spreads though unrelated languages.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-56101220642165275452011-12-23T12:01:04.685+02:002011-12-23T12:01:04.685+02:00Dienekes:
“PIE does not have a word for wagon. It ...Dienekes:<br />“PIE does not have a word for wagon. It has a word for some of its parts, which had other uses before the wagon was invented.”<br /><br />But the words for a wheel are already testimonial enough: they cannot be older than the invention of a wheel. Even Anatolian and Tocharian share the word IE *hurgi ‘wheel’. So it is impossible that even Early PIE could have split very early, as the Anatolian homeland theory suggests.<br /><br />Dienekes:<br />“The finding of East Eurasian mtDNA in the Ukraine and Hungary doesn't bode well for that region being a substantial source of population movements. It looks more like a region that had its population replaced.”<br /><br />1. That East Eurasian mtDNA can have been there for a long time, its carriers both genetically and linguistically Europeanized. <br />2. Language spread does not require massive migration.Jaakko Häkkinenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03088022045546791438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-56813013633121221162011-12-23T11:58:29.468+02:002011-12-23T11:58:29.468+02:00Dear Dienekes, how did you get the subpopulation i...<i>Dear Dienekes, how did you get the subpopulation information about the 1000G IBS samples? I have been looking for it and I haven't found anything. Thanks.</i><br /><br />http://ccr.coriell.org/Sections/Search/Panel_Detail.aspx?Ref=MGP00010&PgId=202<br /><br />Each sample has this information under "Remarks".Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-369923141537942682011-12-23T11:43:39.857+02:002011-12-23T11:43:39.857+02:00Dear Dienekes, how did you get the subpopulation i...Dear Dienekes, how did you get the subpopulation information about the 1000G IBS samples? I have been looking for it and I haven't found anything. Thanks.arnaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04608900940366889353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-18787683392818131002011-12-23T03:26:16.616+02:002011-12-23T03:26:16.616+02:00@apostateimpressions
"Grey, I had in mind a l...@apostateimpressions<br />"Grey, I had in mind a later, IE migration that settled on top of a non-IE population that already farmed."<br /><br />Ah right, that would be different. I'm mostly thinking about little islands of farmers dotted along rivers and coasts within a porous sea of foragers and in that context speculating how you could combine a relief map of europe, the IE language splits and DNA strips in the most plausible way if the rules were:<br />1) start at gobekli tepe<br />2) go by water wherever possible<br /><br />http://geology.com/world/europe.jpg<br /><br />http://www.dhushara.com/paradoxhtm/fall/indeur.jpg<br /><br />http://imageshack.us/f/6/medwesttoeast.png/<br /><br />The neatest fit i can get going west is<br /><br />1) move north to the coast<br />1a) split to anatolia<br />1b) eastern split, tocharian?<br />1c) jump to thessaly<br /><br />2) thessaly<br />2a) split to greece followed by a jump to southern italy<br />2b) thessaly up the danube<br />- italic split into north italy followed by coastal expansion west around the med<br />- celtic / germanic split west / east of the Rhine<br />2c) thessaly up the west coast of black sea and around the carpathians, slavic split<br />- baltic split to the north<br />- iranic split onto the steppe<br /><br />3) trad IE story<br />3a) kurgan down to iran and india<br />3b) kurgan push slavs push germans push celts. everyone pushed west and south.<br /><br />It's interesting how the splits could conceivably follow the geography.Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-38845136017967604252011-12-22T20:43:47.119+02:002011-12-22T20:43:47.119+02:00"In the context of early farmers (IE or other...<i>"In the context of early farmers (IE or otherwise) moving into terriotory inhabited by hunter-gatherers i don't think either of those two models are neccessy or the most likely for the simple reason early farmers couldn't farm everywhere.<br /><br />"I think it's easier to imagine the farmers moving along rivers or coasts hopping from one good farming site to the next until they reached a climatic limit for their current package."</i><br /><br />Grey, I had in mind a later, IE migration that settled on top of a non-IE population that already farmed. The farmers farmed the animals and the aristocratic IE ruled the farmers. I used the term "herrenvolk" not as distinct from "aristocracy" but to interpret what seems to be a ruling-<i>race</i>: i) the same IE ruler component ii) across Europe iii) for thousands of years. I proposed an IE <i>ruler</i>-race to explain why IE consistently replaced other languages: linguistic dominance may be associated with military, political and cultural dominance. The Bronze Age archaeology may imply that the IE rulers had a military advantage that would have allowed them to subjugate the pre-IE. Later examples may be medieval England and France where the local languages were replaced due to the invasion of Germanics who dominated the countries not only linguistically but also militarily, politically and culturally. England then went under the Norman conquerors who also heavily impacted the language and the culture. Ireland may represent another example of language replacement under the political dominance of Britain.<br /><br />Btw I dont think that the ruling-race (herrenvolk) concept has to be distinct in practice from the ruling class concept because the aristocracy of Europe tended to intermarry across national boundaries, which over centuries implies the consolidation or formation of a distinct ruling-race. European aristocracy also somewhat shared a distinct culture if not necessarily the particular IE language (although Latin did function as a sort of common west European language of the learned in the Middle Ages.) So, arguably aristocracy <i>tends</i> toward volkish aspects. The volkish aspects of aristocracy seem especially amplified with the hypothesised IE caucasus component because they represent: i) the same race, ii) from the same initial geographic source, iii) with the same IE language and Bronze Age culture and iv) possibly the same political dominance over the locals.apostateimpressionshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992369104954433139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-75408336413493278282011-12-21T13:08:36.645+02:002011-12-21T13:08:36.645+02:00"If IE language expansion is associated with ..."If IE language expansion is associated with the expansion of the "caucasus" component...Were the expanding IE a "herrenvolk" or an aristocracy that ruled over pre-IE"<br /><br />In the context of early farmers (IE or otherwise) moving into terriotory inhabited by hunter-gatherers i don't think either of those two models are neccessy or the most likely for the simple reason early farmers couldn't farm everywhere.<br /><br />I think it's easier to imagine the farmers moving along rivers or coasts hopping from one good farming site to the next until they reached a climatic limit for their current package.<br /><br />###<br /><br />So the first stage in any farming advance might be - depending largely on the ease of water travel imo - a fairly rapid hop of farmers from one suitable location to the next ignoring the majority of unsuitable terrain in between. This might then be followed by a second stage where (semi-nomadic?) pastoral farming spreads out into the terriotory around the edges of the farming zones *if* it could produce a higher population density than hunter gathering.<br /><br />So for example imagine an abstract 5x5 grid square representing a coast and river valley and marking it as farmable lowland (F) along the coast and river valley and then forested hills (H) adjacent to both and forested mountains beyond that we get:<br /><br />MHFHM<br />MHFHM<br />MHFHM<br />HHFHH<br />FFFFF<br /><br />where the potential population densities are:<br />F: farming 400<br />H: pastoral 200<br />M: hunter-gathering 100<br />and assuming population flows from higher potential pop. density to lower then,<br /><br />in the 1st stage the farmers spread along the coast and river into the nine "F" squares. Then in the 2nd stage a pastoral package is developed and spreads into the adjacent "H" squares leaving the "M" squares solely for hunter-gathering.Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-71751902651176795702011-12-21T11:01:00.858+02:002011-12-21T11:01:00.858+02:00I did a quick bit of messing around in Paint using...I did a quick bit of messing around in Paint using the population sample graphic from the post here:<br /><br />http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/12/first-analysis-of-metspalu-et-al-2011.html<br /><br />http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/607/40469901.png/<br /><br />Cutting and pasting some of the individual euro strips and laying them out in various orders.<br /><br />1) Northern shore of the med going west to east:<br /><br />http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/6/medwesttoeast.png/<br /><br />2) Danubian going west to east:<br /><br />http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/835/danubianwesttoeast.png/<br /><br />3) Atlantic coast, north to south:<br /><br />http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/26/atlanticnorthtosouth.png/<br /><br />4) North to south, central and east<br /><br />http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/528/northtosouth.png/<br /><br />I think they illustrate:<br />1) The "med" component is both western and southern.<br />2) The "caucasus" component is either southern and eastern declining both to the west and north *or* heavily south-eastern with a secondary smaller north-eastern element.<br />3) The "gedrosia" component seems highest on the western and northern periphery, the furthest away from the Greece / Thessaly / Kurgan? expansion points.<br /><br />###<br /><br />Jaska<br />"Because of the wagon vocabulary, Proto-Indo-European could not have spread before the 4th millennium BC – nothing in genes cannot change or disprove this result."<br /><br />or<br /><br />Dienekes<br />"The Anatolian branch is the one that diverged first, hence it defines the oldest split in the language tree."<br /><br />I certainly couldn't judge on this but is it possible we could be looking at two sets of indo-europeans - earlier wave on foot (or more often boat) and the more famous one later on horses?<br /><br />Rough sequence<br />1) First farmers<br />- branch Anatolia<br />- branch Armenia<br /><br />2)<br />Anatolia branch<br />- sub-branch Greece<br />- sub-branch Thessaly<br />or<br />- branch Thessaly<br />-- sub-branch Greece<br />-- sub-branch Danube<br />Armenia branch<br />- Caucasus<br /><br />At this point all of the above are represented by the "Caucasus" component.<br /><br />3)<br />Greece branch<br />- along med coast to Italy<br />Danubian branch<br />- further up Danube<br />Caucasus branch<br />- branch steppe foot pastoralists<br />-- some move east Tocharians?<br />-- some stay, mix with NE component and become Kurgan?<br /><br />In other words, three separate branches of indo-european: coastal, danubian and steppe?<br /><br />I don't know how well that would fit the language splits.Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-25894482487360680372011-12-20T20:50:30.724+02:002011-12-20T20:50:30.724+02:00@ Truth I have used Dienekes statistical tools to ...@ Truth I have used Dienekes statistical tools to analyze different cousins of Canarian descent (including my grandmother), Both Tuscan (Genovese) and Portuguese (Sephardic) show in all of their top five tribes. So I would agree with you that they are not strictly Iberian.Charleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17656563742645201926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-35295095618323482562011-12-20T02:19:51.185+02:002011-12-20T02:19:51.185+02:00This is great! Thank you. Its interesting to see t...This is great! Thank you. Its interesting to see that, for the most part, Spaniards are genetically similar to each other, what seems to fluctuate the most is the NW African component amongst Spaniards, with Canarians having the most, as expected. It seems the further north east, the lower the NW African component, with the Basque having almost none at all.Breoganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15002213259776221372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-50699487852391893932011-12-19T22:18:54.136+02:002011-12-19T22:18:54.136+02:00@ Dienekes
I saw that post, thanks. The abstract ...@ Dienekes<br /><br />I saw that post, thanks. The abstract of the paper summarises what I just said: <br /><br /><i>But the contrast matters, for it typically reflects different processes in the real world: speaker populations either separated by migrations, or expanding over continuous territory.</i>Jeanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16199139920477685196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-61382181205246149922011-12-19T22:12:08.002+02:002011-12-19T22:12:08.002+02:00Jean, I recommend that you read this and keep an e...Jean, I recommend that you read this and keep an eye for the couple of papers referenced therein<br /><br />http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/11/splits-or-waves-trees-or-webs.htmlDienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-80298881775041232012011-12-19T21:46:36.530+02:002011-12-19T21:46:36.530+02:00Although splits are probably not a good way to des...<i>Although splits are probably not a good way to describe early IE languages, and there was probably a dialect continuum that persisted for a while prior to the final breakup of Indo-European languages </i>.<br /><br />There is no rule about how a mother language breaks up. It depends entirely on the behaviour of its speakers. In some cases it might not break up at all. Where the language community remains together in regular communication, it will simply develop. <br /><br />In some cases there will be splits, as a group breaks away to form a fresh community some distance away. <br /><br />In other cases there will be a gradual spread outwards, maintaining communication, until the outer groups which have rare contact with the centre develop their own dialects. That is the dialect continuum. As groups wander further away from that continuum, their dialects develop into languages. <br /><br />In the case of IE, linguists can discern which languages are the result of splits, such as the Anatolian, Tochatrian and Celtic branches and which remained in a dialect continuum, such as Proto-Balto-Slavic and Proto-Indo-Iranian.Jeanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16199139920477685196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-87502682802297672112011-12-19T19:36:18.709+02:002011-12-19T19:36:18.709+02:00The Anatolian branch is the one that diverged firs...The Anatolian branch is the one that diverged first, hence it defines the oldest split in the language tree.<br /><br />Although splits are probably not a good way to describe early IE languages, and there was probably a dialect continuum that persisted for a while prior to the final breakup of Indo-European languages into unintelligible forms.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-90171280028054018212011-12-19T19:33:14.765+02:002011-12-19T19:33:14.765+02:00The finding of East Eurasian mtDNA in the Ukraine ...<i>The finding of East Eurasian mtDNA in the Ukraine and Hungary doesn't bode well for that region being a substantial source of population movements. It looks more like a region that had its population replaced.</i><br /><br />Indeed it has had its popular replaced several times. Which is why ancient DNA is crucial. Modern populations there do not provide a good guide to who was there in 4000 BC.Jeanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16199139920477685196noreply@blogger.com