tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post1950225828449861944..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Population structure in Ireland and Britain (O'Dushlaine et al. 2010)Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-80580955179662616682011-11-18T04:45:15.689+02:002011-11-18T04:45:15.689+02:00Just came across this post so am most likely posti...Just came across this post so am most likely posting on a dead thread. But this has to be said:<br /><br />"Analysis was conducted on 3654 individuals from Ireland, Britain (with regional sampling in Scotland), Bulgaria, Portugal, Sweden and the Utah HapMap collection."<br /><br />The "regional sampling" in Scotland (Aberdeen) is hardly representative of the Scottish population. Aberdeen is an oil city with a large population of "incomers". I wouldn't be at all surprised if most of those sampled there were English.McGonagallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14887321534801112949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-92110992977607978832010-07-02T16:40:57.050+03:002010-07-02T16:40:57.050+03:00Let me establish my highly scientific credentials....Let me establish my highly scientific credentials. <br /><br />I have lived in Sweden for one year of my life. I have lived with a Swedish woman for 10 years. I have danced to Dancing Queen at more than one Swedish wedding. I have travelled widely in the Nordic countries and the British Isles. My eyes tell me that the populations of Scotland and the populations of Bergen Norway have some degree of overlap. Most obvious is the presence of red hair and the type of skin pigmentation found in both populations. Swedes tell me that Finns are ugly but after spending some time in Helsinki I must say that many Finns look a lot like Swedes(and they are both the opposite of ugly). They obviously share a large amount of genetic material. Go to any of these northern cities and there are large population samples right before your eyes, and what one sees tends to confirm what modern genetic studies are suggesting.jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02837280077199556937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-54383171876820347792010-06-30T17:55:59.167+03:002010-06-30T17:55:59.167+03:00Maju said:
@PConroy: "Just remember that Jos...Maju said:<br /><i><br />@PConroy: "Just remember that Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism was R-M222 = North West Irish, so I expect a lot of Irish descent among the Mormons"<br /><br />You expect too much from a Y-DNA lineage. Smith is an English surname and I presume that when Utahns report mostly English ancestry, that is relevant and likely to be true in any case.<br /></i><br /><br />Smith is as much an English name as it is an Irish name and a German name - in the US. In Irish Gaelic, Gabhann=Smith, and so the lastname McGabhain (aka McGowan, like singer Shane McGowan) is usually anglacized as Smith or an older version Smythe.pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-37894784198466064752010-06-28T22:23:16.408+03:002010-06-28T22:23:16.408+03:00Ponto:
You'll be glad to know that we can add...Ponto:<br /><br />You'll be glad to know that we can add to the list of people who make up Scots, Saxons. The rather contorted and unhappy history is here:<br /><br />http://www.electricscotland.com/history/genhist/hist24.html<br /><br />However, Scots cannot be said to be Saxons, anymore than they can be said to be Vikings.<br /><br />Happily, we needn't argue about it, as sooner or later, the science will have an answer for us.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-36097824741526893602010-06-28T21:58:59.981+03:002010-06-28T21:58:59.981+03:00pconroy:
Pardon me. I wasn't aware of the En...pconroy:<br /><br />Pardon me. I wasn't aware of the English in Dublin.<br /><br />Yes, thanks for the information on the various regions of Ireland. I do hope we see a full sampling across Ireland at some point.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-46528298943079341872010-06-28T21:28:53.264+03:002010-06-28T21:28:53.264+03:00@Annie:
"The point is that SSE England is no...@Annie:<br /><br />"The point is that SSE England is not genetically representative of England, not even most of it. So the paper says almost nothing about England".<br /><br />Ok, fair enough. I was understanding "South-SE England" as a comprehensive sample of South and SE England but I was surely wrong. Where exactly did they get the sample?, does anybody know?Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-52434194262074637572010-06-28T16:45:30.965+03:002010-06-28T16:45:30.965+03:00@Maju
The point is that SSE England is not geneti...@Maju<br /><br />The point is that SSE England is not genetically representative of England, not even most of it. So the paper says almost nothing about England. We already know that Anglosaxon and Norman influence was greatest in SSE England. <br /><br />So the authors chose the most admixed population in England and chose the make that representative of England? That makes no sense.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11000684388615334278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-90789027017949010622010-06-28T14:54:30.192+03:002010-06-28T14:54:30.192+03:00Btw, I used the term "Anglic" in my abov...<i>Btw, I used the term "Anglic" in my above post as just a language classification, not as an ethnic term; so historically Anglic speaking Scots may or may not be more Saxon and/or Jute descended than Angle.</i><br /><br />A last addendum: The Anglic variety native to Scotland isn't called Anglic, English or something similar, but has a vairety of native names like Braid Scots, Lallans (meaning Lowlands), Buchan Claik, Doric and Teri.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-18112233534458770452010-06-28T14:43:19.599+03:002010-06-28T14:43:19.599+03:00Btw, I used the term "Anglic" in my abov...Btw, I used the term "Anglic" in my above post as just a language classification, not as an ethnic term; so historically Anglic speaking Scots may or may not be more Saxon and/or Jute descended than Angle.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-67676000014682544132010-06-28T14:36:21.972+03:002010-06-28T14:36:21.972+03:00Unless people from the source regions of Angles, S...Unless people from the source regions of Angles, Saxons and Jutes in the European mainland and all ethnic and sub-ethnic groups of Britain, and preferably also of Ireland, are tested together, it is futile to talk about English and also historically Anglic speaking Scottish genetic origins.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-75156824776836439002010-06-28T05:56:54.322+03:002010-06-28T05:56:54.322+03:00"The great majority of British people to move..."The great majority of British people to move to Ireland were Scottish protestants who moved there during the 'Plantations of Ireland'". <br /><br />My mother's ancestors for example. And they were from the Outer Isles, so could have been Viking. Perhaps it would be interesting to test my mtDNA.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-5258994073629116232010-06-26T09:12:50.872+03:002010-06-26T09:12:50.872+03:00Marnie you can't be Scottish. I suggest you fi...Marnie you can't be Scottish. I suggest you find out yourself. Most of what I said came from a visit to Scotland, and from a museum I visited whilst I was there.<br /><br />Sassanach=Saxon, that is why I used Saxons instead of Angles or Jutes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-21963919699070841802010-06-26T02:25:59.518+03:002010-06-26T02:25:59.518+03:00pconroy and ponto:
In fact, it is believed that t...pconroy and ponto:<br /><br />In fact, it is believed that the Scottish people are an amalgamation of Picts, Dal Raida Scots from Ireland, Britons, Angles, and, as we have discussed, in small proportion, Vikings.<br /><br />I find these sweeping generalizations that the Scots are "Scandinavians", "Saxons", and "Angles" to be quite simplistic, and in the case of Saxons, bold face wrong.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-801631750259286482010-06-26T00:56:23.422+03:002010-06-26T00:56:23.422+03:00@Pconroy (again):
"My take on the K=5 would ...@Pconroy (again):<br /><br />"My take on the K=5 would be:<br />Red = Hunter-Gatherer substrate"<br /><br />That cannot be correct either because as the hunter-gatherer substrate is older and from a broader area, it should show up as different regional components. It's just noise of the method saying that there's a cluster that includes all Europeans equally, because Europeans are quite homogeneous and surely the Frappé algorith allows for such noise to happen.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-90512635827427532992010-06-26T00:53:10.239+03:002010-06-26T00:53:10.239+03:00@Ponto: "Whatever the Red is, it is consisten...@Ponto: "Whatever the Red is, it is consistent in all the Europeans".<br /><br />Technically it means that there's X chance that the individual is more alike to any other within that group, right? Europeans are much alike, so guess it's ok and rather should indicate just common European other ancestry. <br /><br />...<br /><br />@Annie: Anglosaxon influence was clearly more intense in England than elsewhere in the islands. And genetically (and geographically) Vikings and Anglosaxons were about the same. Also I'd think that the genetic impact of the Anglosaxons was much much greater than that of the Vikings, and that impact, as measured by Y-DNA was much greater in England (with and East-West gradient) than Scotland, Wales and surely Ireland too. <br /><br />But anyhow there might be other elements of affinity, hard to tell without more populations of reference. <br /><br /><br />@Joe: "Shouldn't the researchers have picked an area that had fewer British immigrants such as the west of Ireland?"<br /><br />Totally agreed. <br /><br />...<br /><br />@Fanty: "No chance is ever "practically zero"".<br /><br />Then you probably play lottery... and lose. <br /><br />There are chances that are not significantly different from zero. <br /><br />"We exist because a couple of chances you call "practically zero" did happen in a row after all".<br /><br />Fair enough (if you mean "we" as individuals), but that does not apply to drift statistics because pure flukes cannot be inferred statistically. <br /><br />...<br /><br />@PConroy: "Just remember that Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism was R-M222 = North West Irish, so I expect a lot of Irish descent among the Mormons"<br /><br />You expect too much from a Y-DNA lineage. Smith is an English surname and I presume that when Utahns report mostly English ancestry, that is relevant and likely to be true in any case.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-16316347677999515532010-06-26T00:50:13.084+03:002010-06-26T00:50:13.084+03:00Marnie,
Yes, Scottish Presbyterians were settled ...Marnie,<br /><br />Yes, Scottish Presbyterians were settled in Ireland during the Ulster Plantation.<br /><br />On the other hand, Dublin city, Dublin county and surrounding areas of Kildare, Wicklow had been part of the British realm since the time of the Norman invasion of 1167. The area was know as "The Pale" - hence the expression "Beyond the Pale" for someone/something uncouth or barbaric.<br /><br />So you are totally incorrect to suggest that many British didn't move to Dublin, they did! These British settlers were mostly English and many were from the port city of Bristol.pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-13996530447274279562010-06-26T00:15:48.558+03:002010-06-26T00:15:48.558+03:00"Didn't a lot of British people move to D..."Didn't a lot of British people move to Dublin during the course of British rule?"<br /><br />The great majority of British people to move to Ireland were Scottish protestants who moved there during the "Plantations of Ireland."<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantations_of_Ireland<br /><br />Dublin was not included in the Plantations.<br /><br />As marriage was largely influenced by religion, Protestant and Catholic, intermarriage between Plantation Protestants and Irish Catholics was likely unusual.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-32023793840438544282010-06-26T00:02:55.246+03:002010-06-26T00:02:55.246+03:00Thanks Annie Mouse. That's helpful. I'd ...Thanks Annie Mouse. That's helpful. I'd also like to see the Belgians and Dutch in the mix.<br /><br />Just for the record, I think you've got the area of Saxon and Norman influence about right. There's also an area of England on the east coast that is believed to have either Saxon or Viking genetic influence.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-17725943194035921802010-06-25T23:55:42.999+03:002010-06-25T23:55:42.999+03:00Ponto,
"The Scots from the Scottish Lowlands...Ponto,<br /><br />"The Scots from the Scottish Lowlands are all Saxons."<br /><br />Reference and dates please.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-91081996569723120772010-06-25T23:28:39.875+03:002010-06-25T23:28:39.875+03:00Average Joe,
I have concerns too over the locatio...Average Joe,<br /><br />I have concerns too over the locations that the data was collected. The Viking settlement of Dublin was on the North side of the river Liffey, today the North side is the poorer side and populated by people from all over the country, especially the West. The South side is the wealthier side and was (is ?) a bastion of the Anglo-Irish Ascendancy – Merrion Square/Sandymount etc. From a previous study (Capelli?), the town of Rush, just to the North of Dublin has some Viking influence. So depending on which part of Dublin, you could get results that are reflective of the population substructure in the city.<br /><br />I would have loved to have seen samples from:<br />West Kerry (Neolthic metal workers?), West Mayo (Early Neolithic – Ceide Fields) , South East Wexford (Normans), Leitrim (Vikings), East Donegal (Ui Neills), Golden Vale Cork (Elizabethan English) and finally West Laois (purest native Irish – never colonized).pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-28607847800898448902010-06-25T23:22:35.956+03:002010-06-25T23:22:35.956+03:00Maju said:
Utah whites are self-reportedly mostly ...Maju said:<br /><i>Utah whites are self-reportedly mostly of English ancestry (much unlike everything around them which is of self reported mostly German ancestry).</i><br /><br />Just remember that Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism was R-M222 = North West Irish, so I expect a lot of Irish descent among the Mormons.pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-83585743553281933762010-06-25T23:20:47.613+03:002010-06-25T23:20:47.613+03:00Ponto,
In terms of Scotland, you are almost right...Ponto,<br /><br />In terms of Scotland, you are almost right, if you substitute Angles for Saxons, you would be correct.<br /><br />My take on the K=5 would be:<br />Red = Hunter-Gatherer substratepconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-72394955362551723312010-06-25T22:35:34.707+03:002010-06-25T22:35:34.707+03:00"But this time tends to infinite in large pop..."But this time tends to infinite in large populations. It's like flipping coins. If you flip them in groups of 10, there's a good likelihood that at some point they will be all tails or heads, but if you flip them in groups of a million the chance is practically zero. "<br /><br />No chance is ever "practically zero".<br /><br />We exist because a couple of chances you call "practically zero" did happen in a row after all.Fantyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07969348276219179258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-31119648258653860012010-06-25T22:28:24.215+03:002010-06-25T22:28:24.215+03:00"At a minimum, their population was a quarter..."At a minimum, their population was a quarter million during the Viking age.<br />"<br /><br />Wich is virtually nothing. ;)Fantyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07969348276219179258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-19429382501269406332010-06-25T09:02:30.511+03:002010-06-25T09:02:30.511+03:00The Scots from the Scottish Lowlands are all Saxon...The Scots from the Scottish Lowlands are all Saxons. Get to know some Scottish history. There are a number of ethnic groups in Scotland. The Scotti from Ireland, the Picti up north, the Saxons in the SE Lowlands, the Welsh in the SW and finally the Norse, mostly the islands to the north.<br /><br />In the K=5, what exactly do the colors represent? White=Finn admixture, Blue=Balkan SE Mediterranean, Yellow=SW Mediterranean, Green=NW European, and the Red=Neolithic farmers? Whatever the Red is, it is consistent in all the Europeans.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com