tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post1273659222367118367..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: New Y-chromosome haplogroup treeDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-66959618088418063162009-02-05T08:51:00.000+02:002009-02-05T08:51:00.000+02:00I do terryt. R originated in Asia. R1 originated i...I do terryt. R originated in Asia. R1 originated in Asia and R1b and R1a originated in Asia.<BR/><BR/>There is no genesis for the R group in Europe except some subclades like that found in Basques and other Europeans which are about 4,000 years old. The further you go back with the previous mutations the closer to Asia you get.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-47550000028879274772008-06-21T13:50:00.000+03:002008-06-21T13:50:00.000+03:00" haplogroup I was the only haplogroup associated ..." haplogroup I was the only haplogroup associated with the Gravettian or that it was associated with leptodolichomorphics, or that ALL Gravettians were leptodolichomorphics"<BR/>Leptodolichomorphic is basic Slavic antropological type and it is not at all connected with Hg I but with Hg R.Hg I is defenitely and without any doubt connected with Dinaric anthropological type<BR/>which has domminated Europe before other main migrations.In fact it is so well documented in biological anthropology that it is without any doubt.If you like more<BR/>than even cranial index is cpecific for this two tipes.Dinaric is only Brahicranial by definition.Leptodolimorfic is Mesocranial by definition.Values in measurment during the time has been changed ,but only in basic borders for basic indexing for each type.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-85091574530159082152008-04-10T07:54:00.000+03:002008-04-10T07:54:00.000+03:00True Antigonos. However technological and cultura...True Antigonos. However technological and cultural expansion are usually connected in some way with some level of genetic expansiion, although they easily travel further than genes. And not all members of a particular Hg migrate in the same direction at the same time, and not only members of just a single Hg form part of any migration. <BR/><BR/>But over time Hgs will be eliminated from any isolated population. Just one Hg could be left in just a few generations. So we can get some idea of historical migrations from examining Hg disribution. <BR/><BR/>Which reminds me. This study claims haplogroup R evolved 26,800 years ago. It presumably separated from Q at that time, which does fit the Gravettian's development. Perhaps R1b sprang up in Europe from R* 18,000 years ago and then replaced it. Anyone see any evidence against this idea?terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-34462935293056127392008-04-09T05:27:00.000+03:002008-04-09T05:27:00.000+03:00Guys don't correlate entire industries with specif...Guys don't correlate entire industries with specific Hgs.<BR/>At least not until we have some proofs!<BR/>Now that we can take ancient Y-DNA from bones we will soon find out what is what!Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781621903358782011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-75046193358153154402008-04-08T10:44:00.000+03:002008-04-08T10:44:00.000+03:00Rafinha, you're correct. R1b must have replaced G...Rafinha, you're correct. R1b must have replaced Gravettian Y-chromosome lines as well. Y-chromosome lines are obviously replaced fairly regularly. Therefore the fact that no Neanderthal Y-chromosomes survive is totally useless as proof that all their genes died out.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-15909563991794935522008-04-08T08:07:00.000+03:002008-04-08T08:07:00.000+03:00"Y-chromosome R1b came in with the Gravettian and ..."Y-chromosome R1b came in with the Gravettian and replaced all earlier lines, including Neanderthal."<BR/><BR/>That is not sypported by this latest issue. Even the haplogroup parent to R1b (R1) is only 18,000, thus not old enough to be linked to the Gravettian culture.Rafshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01746094202823415912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-19725126137190357962008-04-07T07:09:00.000+03:002008-04-07T07:09:00.000+03:00My contribution is to suggest that y-chromosomes J...My contribution is to suggest that y-chromosomes J and I are more recent arrivals, not survivors of Aurignacian or Cro-Magnon lines. They came in with the expansion of farming. Y-chromosome R1b came in with the Gravettian and replaced all earlier lines, including Neanderthal. <BR/><BR/>As Dienekes said way back, "The Y chromosomes of the Aurignacian creators need not have persisted in the present-day population". Of course that doesn't mean at all that other of their genes don't survive to the present day.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-28206659540610244022008-04-06T06:36:00.000+03:002008-04-06T06:36:00.000+03:00My, my, my!!!Are you retreating?And you are misint...My, my, my!!!<BR/>Are you retreating?<BR/>And you are misinterpreting my comments by copying fragments selectively to produce a point which i did not make.<BR/><BR/>I said how can Gravettians carry only one Hg since we can find fossils in their lands which do not belong in the same race and that we find both female and male non Caucasoid skeletons meaning Y-DNA from non Caucasoids along with non Caucasoid mtDNA as well!<BR/>How can then the entire Gravettian area been attributed to I Hg as shown in Geneticists' maps?<BR/>Where is the non Caucasoid Y-DNA Hg?<BR/>You totally missed, in your desire to prove me wrong, the goal of my comment which is to clearly outline the biased and sometimes obscure meaning and reasoning of Genetics and other sciences!!!<BR/><BR/>You said:<BR/><BR/>"Of course there are archaelogical differences between different cultures. The fact that Neolithic cultures from the Levant to the Atlantic can be traced to common Near Eastern predecessors does not mean they are identical".<BR/><BR/>AGAIN you totally missed the issue!!!<BR/>Who said what you write above?<BR/>Haha, not i for sure!<BR/>I CLEARLY SPOKE ABOUT THE GENETIC RELATIONSHIP OF ANATOLIAN AND LEVANTINE CULTURES!!!<BR/>Immigrants from the Levant went to Anatolia and created the various pure Neolithic cultures there!<BR/>We have proof from both anthropology and archeology (burial customs) for this!!!<BR/><BR/>You said:<BR/><BR/>"Ancient Greek culture abounds with all the elements you mention; by your reckoning the Greeks were also not Indo-European."<BR/>OUTLINE THE ELEMENTS YOU REFER TO!!!<BR/>Proto-Greek language, customs, culture, burials, way of life, even till the Mycenaean years have nothing to do with all these.<BR/>On the contrary, after the arrival of proto-Greeks these things slowly vanished and the very few which remained were radically transformed, acquired a new meaning, a new goal and served a new purpose!<BR/>Only in the middle Archaic period and due to the contact of Greeks with Minor Asia and Levant through the various colonies or trade did Oriental elements infiltrate our culture and resulted in the deterioration of our civilization and moral which slowly but steadily resulted in the downfall of Ancient Greece (as it happened with Persia, Rome, and finally with generally the Aryan Nations which all either in the distant past or in the last centuries came to contact by means of trade, arts, philosophy, etc. with Near and Middle East and lost their quality)!!!<BR/>Since you are a Christian, i can tell that from your icons and psalms which you post in religious festivals, you might consider Ancient Greece as a dogma or something!<BR/>Ancient Greece was n't "the Heaven on Earth" culture. And in my experience and knowledge THERE IS NO SUCH A CULTURE in the World and probably will never be!<BR/>Ancient Greece had its goods and bads and the point is to outline the bads and praise the goods in order to avoid repeating the mistakes which lead to its decline in the future!!!<BR/><BR/>FINALLY you said:<BR/><BR/>"By all means, make your own blog or website and present your theory for the world to see. I will be happy to comment on it".<BR/><BR/>But my dear friend it does n't need the emergence of an entire new blog or website to prove me.....wrong and prejudiced!!!<BR/>A simple post WILL MOST CERTAINLY DO!!!<BR/>After all it is here that the issue took place and it is here that it is suitable to see finally who is really aware of Indoeuropean issues and who is simply bluffing!!!<BR/><BR/>P.S. And i am not going to "present my theory for the world to see"!!!<BR/>On the contrary i will present the latest, most accurate and totally checked facts of the I.E. issue.<BR/>If i wanted to show of i would have created a blog in which i would have myself presented as a Global Authority in Anthropology, Genetics, Art, History and i would have interpreted things the way they suit me as many others are currently doing!!!<BR/>This is not my desire. I just want to learn things and exchange opinions with others from around the planet!<BR/>My comments, as you might have noticed these two years that i post here, are more to raise counter arguments than to impose an opinion. By doing this i enrich my knowledge from various sectors which i use in my political and scientific life.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781621903358782011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-24927612706490037432008-04-06T05:03:00.000+03:002008-04-06T05:03:00.000+03:00>> How can racially different, male and female, sk...>> How can racially different, male and female, skeletons share the same Hg and what is the origin of these individuals?<BR/><BR/>Females don't have Y-chromosomes, and of course racially different people can share the same haplogroup.<BR/><BR/>>> Is there any genetic (archaeologically speaking) difference between the Anatolian and the Levantine cultures?<BR/><BR/>Of course there are archaelogical differences between different cultures. The fact that Neolithic cultures from the Levant to the Atlantic can be traced to common Near Eastern predecessors does not mean they are identical.<BR/><BR/>>> My thesis rises from the Journal of Indoeuropean Studies!<BR/><BR/>Journals are venues for scientific discussion, they are not authorities.<BR/><BR/>>> Hermaphrodite statuettes from Crete, homosexual deities, superstitious cults, female ruling deities (Mother Earth i.e. Potnia in Greek)<BR/><BR/>Ancient Greek culture abounds with all the elements you mention; by your reckoning the Greeks were also not Indo-European.<BR/>>> Since you insult me of being prejudiced and that i am unaware of the various I.E. theories, Renfrew's included, I DARE YOU HERE IN YOUR SITE TO MAKE A POST AND ARGUE WITH ME ON THE ORIGIN OF I.E.!!!<BR/>I AM WAITING YOUR ANSWER!!!<BR/><BR/>By all means, make your own blog or website and present your theory for the world to see. I will be happy to comment on it.Dienekes Pontikoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01341303424873475334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-76202886859567741522008-04-06T03:58:00.000+03:002008-04-06T03:58:00.000+03:00Dienekes said:"I suggest that you read the primary...Dienekes said:<BR/><BR/>"I suggest that you read the primary sources. No geneticist that I know of has published work that suggests that haplogroup I was the only haplogroup associated with the Gravettian or that it was associated with leptodolichomorphics, or that ALL Gravettians were leptodolichomorphics".<BR/><BR/>Hahahaha!!!<BR/>Yeah! That's why in their maps and diagrams they have colored THE ENTIRE Gravettian area as the source of I Hg!!!<BR/>Including Italy where the Grimaldis were found!<BR/>Be reasonable mate!<BR/>You say in other words that NO GENETICIST has published such work as the above mentioned by me!<BR/>AND BY YOUR OPINION THE MEDIA AND ALL INTERNET SOURCES THAT DEAL WITH THESE AFFAIRS WROTE ALL THESE THINGS BY MERE INTUITION OR PERHAPS THE ONES THAT WROTE ALL THESE WERE...FISHERMEN OR NURSES OR SOMETHING?<BR/>You did not answer ANY of my arguments above! How can racially different, male and female, skeletons share the same Hg and what is the origin of these individuals?<BR/>Semino and Wells said that Gravettians brought this clearly "Europoid" Hg to Europe. And some also have said that Anatolia and generally the Near East is the source of the Gravettian culture!<BR/>Really?<BR/>And the Grimaldis did they originate in Anatolia or Near East too?<BR/>Where is the fossil proof?<BR/>Grimaldis are also present in Crimea, Voronezh, etc. and these Grimaldis there were also Gravettian in culture!<BR/>But leptomorphic individuals never reached these lands until very later!<BR/>How the Hell then since Grimaldis did not originate in Anatolia/Near East and they were Gravettian long before the appearance of leptomorphics to their lands did Gravettian originated and spread from Anatolia?<BR/><BR/>You said:<BR/><BR/>"I suggest that you read Renfrew before you criticize him. Renfrew does not derive the Proto-Indo-Europeans (or Pre-Proto-Indo-Europeans) from Syria or Palestine but from specific cultures of Anatolia".<BR/><BR/>Really now?<BR/>Is there any genetic (archaeologically speaking) difference between the Anatolian and the Levantine cultures?<BR/>Don't they descend from the Natufian and before that the Kebarian culture?<BR/>The Ubaid, Halafian, Hassunian, etc. cultures how different are they from Çatalhöyük, Çayönü, Nevali Cori, Hacilar, Göbekli Tepe, and Mersin?<BR/>Are they or are they not correlated with Ain Mallaha and El-Wad?<BR/><BR/>You said:<BR/><BR/>"Your notion that Neolithic farmers were peaceful and non-violent suggests that you are influenced by imaginary reconstructions of Neolithic society by the Gimbutas school".<BR/><BR/>Really?<BR/><BR/>I don't give a dam about Gimbutas!!!<BR/>She left her feelings and political doctrines to influence her in her judgment! Marija was excellent in gathering enormous quantities of data from research but when it was time to draw her conclusions then she was letting her feelings get in the way!<BR/>I BELIEVE IT IS YOU WHO MUST FIRST STUDY THE REAL AND DEEP ANCESTRY OF THE INDOEUROPEAN ISSUE AND THEN SPEAK!!!<BR/>Just because i support the Kurgan Hypothesis you accused me for being influenced by Gimbutas!!!<BR/>Really, my predisposing friend?<BR/>Is that what you believe?<BR/>Well let me tell you a couple of things!<BR/>Schrader in 1890 was the first proposer of this theory! They followed him, S. Feist, V. Gordon Childe, T. Sulimirski and G. Poisson!!!<BR/>Marija was only one of the latest supporters of this theory.<BR/>My thesis rises from the Journal of Indoeuropean Studies!<BR/>Also from anthropological and other archaeological sources (like the French "Institut d'études indo-européennes" at the Jean Moulin University Lyon 3).<BR/>Now for the beliefs and moral of the Anatolian cultures we have evidence from their rituals, statuettes, graves and art!<BR/>Hermaphrodite statuettes from Crete, homosexual deities, superstitious cults, female ruling deities (Mother Earth i.e. Potnia in Greek)<BR/>etc. are present there!<BR/><BR/>FINALLY IT IS YOU WHO MUST ACCEPT THAT "scientific theories are judged by their correspondence to reality and not by whether or not they inspire anyone"!<BR/>It would have been nice for us Mediterraneans to have the I.E. descending from us BUT UNFORTUNATELY THIS DOES NOT STAND!!!<BR/>And I.E. were patriarchal, warlike, pastoral and hierarchical!!!<BR/>That's why the system encourages scientists to try and dilute or if possible destroy this past in order for our democratic globe to live according to the system's wishes!!!<BR/>And who knows, if you do what they say, you might become a Lord one day!!!<BR/><BR/><BR/>P.S. Since you insult me of being prejudiced and that i am unaware of the various I.E. theories, Renfrew's included, I DARE YOU HERE IN YOUR SITE TO MAKE A POST AND ARGUE WITH ME ON THE ORIGIN OF I.E.!!!<BR/>I AM WAITING YOUR ANSWER!!!Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781621903358782011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-18387019028530970292008-04-06T02:09:00.000+03:002008-04-06T02:09:00.000+03:00>> A theory which...postulates I.E. in proto farme...>> A theory which...postulates I.E. in proto farmers from Palestine, Syria and Anatolia with a feminine, pathetic culture, and with a non warlike, non violent, non patriarchal society!!!<BR/><BR/>I suggest that you read Renfrew before you criticize him. Renfrew does not derive the Proto-Indo-Europeans (or Pre-Proto-Indo-Europeans) from Syria or Palestine but from specific cultures of Anatolia.<BR/><BR/>Your notion that Neolithic farmers were peaceful and non-violent suggests that you are influenced by imaginary reconstructions of Neolithic society by the Gimbutas school.<BR/><BR/>>> Thus WHAT INSPIRED AND GUIDED MANY WHITE PEOPLE, WHAT MADE THEM PROUD OF THEIR PAST AND RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR FUTURE CEASED TO EXIST!!!<BR/><BR/>Scientific theories are judged by their correspondence to reality and not by whether or not they "inspire" anyone.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-88640452830587723702008-04-06T02:02:00.000+03:002008-04-06T02:02:00.000+03:00I suggest that you read the primary sources. No ge...I suggest that you read the primary sources. No geneticist that I know of has published work that suggests that haplogroup I was the only haplogroup associated with the Gravettian or that it was associated with leptodolichomorphics, or that ALL Gravettians were leptodolichomorphics.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-63069628567966481192008-04-06T01:05:00.000+03:002008-04-06T01:05:00.000+03:00Come on mate!When they say that Gravettian (in gen...Come on mate!<BR/>When they say that Gravettian (in general without differentiating for example the Pavlovian Gravettian or the Anatolian one etc.) carried the I Hg to Europe and they give as the racial reflection of that Hg the leptodolichomorphic skeletons of Eastern Europe WHY DO THEY HIGHLIGHT IN THEIR MAPS ALL THE GRAVETTIAN AREA AND NOT THE EASTERN EUROPEAN ONE?<BR/>Were ALL Gravettians of Italy for example leptodolichomorphic?<BR/>Were the Grimaldis dolichomorphic?<BR/>Of course NOT!!!<BR/>Then why the Hell do they highlight their area?<BR/>Scientists nowadays try to acquire money, fame, seats, etc. through their work. In order to do so they try to make their researches' results as pleasant and political correct as possible!<BR/>Humans are all descend from Adam and Eve i.e. Y-DNA Adam and mtDNA Eve so the Christian and generally Semitic religions which have the most followers are pleased, humans are all of the same stock i.e. no Neanderthal or any other Archaic Homo admixture took place (although we have bones and skeletons which CLEARLY show the opposite) thus Globalization's agenda is OK and Genetics are political correct, humans and chimps are almost the same thus anatomy and taxonomy don't say much that's why it is better to cancel them and have only Genetics as a tool for discovering our past i.e. buy buy physical anthropology and races are a myth and hence we can all live happily by mixing our blood and create a homogeneous global market with free movement of labor and goods and services and Mr Turner, Soros, Abramovic et al may live happily and luxuriously their short lives and who among them gives a dam about humankind and its biological future after 50 or 100 years!!!<BR/>These men won't be here to experience the results!!!<BR/>That's how they think.<BR/>Science is biased unfortunately in our times!!!<BR/>How will you explain Bernal's theories, Kemp's theories, or even in the near past Gunther's and Sergi's theories!<BR/>And the sad think is that it is not only the political agenda that motivates their works but also self interest!!!<BR/>Glory, recognition and above all money!!!<BR/>Colin Renfrew for example although he made excellent things in his carrier like the radiocarbon revolution, his arcaeogenetics, etc. he did not accept glory and recognition untill he said his..."theory" about the Indoeuropean origins!!!<BR/>A theory which is mostly mere and shallow suggestions than a real theory and albeit its contradiction with anthropological, arcaeological, linguistic and other facts it won him recognition because he said a political correct theory!<BR/>A theory which...postulates I.E. in proto farmers from Palestine, Syria and Anatolia with a feminine, pathetic culture, and with a non warlike, non violent, non patriarchal society!!!<BR/>Thus WHAT INSPIRED AND GUIDED MANY WHITE PEOPLE, WHAT MADE THEM PROUD OF THEIR PAST AND RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR FUTURE CEASED TO EXIST!!!<BR/>Is it coincidental that albeit his prior achievements and works Renfrew, with the death of a relative of his, not only acquired a nobleman's title BUT HE WAS ALSO NOMINATED AS BARON RENFREW OF KAIMSTHORN AFTER HIS THEORY ABOUT THE I.E.?<BR/>Is it coincidental that an unknown, insignificant archaeologist named Robert Drews earned seats and recognition with his ridiculous book about the coming of Greeks in 1600 BC?<BR/>No my dear Dienekes! Things in the scientific world are not so innocent and pure as you and many other commentators want to believe!!!Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781621903358782011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-27520811514010300772008-04-05T23:23:00.000+03:002008-04-05T23:23:00.000+03:00>> I said that they want us to believe that entire...>> I said that they want us to believe that entire industries like the Auricnacian and the Gravettian carried only one Hg<BR/><BR/>Incorrect, the fact that some geneticists have suggested that a particular haplogroup is associated with the spread of particular industries of cultures is not equivalent to the statement that they carried <I>only</I> one haplogroup.Dienekes Pontikoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01341303424873475334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-32663740964898657442008-04-05T23:05:00.000+03:002008-04-05T23:05:00.000+03:00I said that they want us to believe that entire in...I said that they want us to believe that entire industries like the Auricnacian and the Gravettian carried only one Hg and that from these two parental Hgs (R and I) the major body of Europeans descend!<BR/>The American Journal of Human Genetics, Spencer Wells and Ornella Semino have said that.<BR/>I will repeat myself for a last time.<BR/>The formal thesis of Geneticists is that Gravettian carried I Hg. Aurignacian carried R. R in latter years..."went" to Solutreans exclusively!!!<BR/>They have maps that show THE ENTIRE GRAVETTIAN INDUSTRY IN EUROPE FROM WHICH THE I HG AND ITS DERIVATIVES SPREAD WITH ONE COLOR AND THE ENTIRE SOLUTREAN INDUSTRY WITH ANOTHER SINGLE COLOR AS THE CARRIERS OF R HG!!!<BR/>How in Heaven's name, without at the time being, been able to extract Y-DNA from Paleolithic bones could they make such conclusions?<BR/>How is it possible the entire Gravettian industry with the so many racially different skeletons, female and male, to have only one Hg?<BR/>The male Grimaldis did not carry any Hg?<BR/>And although the Europoid Gravettians can be correlated with skeletons from the Near East can we correlate the Grimaldi ones as well?<BR/>Grimaldis were Gravettians in cultural terms but Negroid in racial terms (and you were wrong that the older Negroid fossil is the Jebel Sahaba one from 14500 BP, some Grimaldi ones are older)!!!<BR/>Geneticists say that R Hg was in Iberia and southern France WHERE THE INHABITANTS were carriers of an ancestral R Hg and from which various derivative R Hgs developed and that THE REST INHABITED EUROPE, WHICH WAS MOSTLY UNDER GRAVETTIAN POPULATIONS, was carrier of ancestral I Hg which also gave birth to various I derivatives.<BR/>YOU CAN MAKE A SEARCH IN YAHOO!, ALTAVISTA, GOOGLE, ASK JEEVES, WIKIPEDIA, ETC. FOR THE KEY WORDS "GRAVETTIAN AND Y-DNA" AND YOU WILL SEE THE TRUTH OF MY WORDS.<BR/>These two Hgs were the real European Hgs and ALL the rest are just non autochthonous invaders from either Anatolia (E,J) or from Northern Eurasia (N).<BR/>Does this ring a bell?<BR/>Does this remind you some stupid beliefs that Alpines and Nordics are the true Europeans and that the rest are non European even if they are Caucasoid? <BR/>Does it remind you Nordicism a bit?<BR/>When they say that 80% of the European stock is....Paleolithic while the rest 20% only is from the post Neolithic years what does this remind you?<BR/>Since when just because a Hg originated in the Paleolithic that means that it reached its final boundaries in that period too?<BR/>R1a might have originated in the Paleolithic but in numerous areas it appeared in the Bronze or the Iron age!!!<BR/>Anyway back to our issue now, Gravettians and Solutreans were isolated from eachother and that's why R and I Hgs did not mix at that time and continued a separated life till the end of LGM. That's the thesis of Geneticists!!!<BR/>Do you really believe that these two Hgs were the only Hgs back then or is it more reasonable that they were more Hgs which got extinct in the way?<BR/><BR/>See below to witness what is the current thesis of people as far as Genetics is concerned! <BR/><BR/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA%29<BR/><BR/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans#GeneticsUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781621903358782011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-62132056448639086812008-04-05T16:25:00.000+03:002008-04-05T16:25:00.000+03:00My interest is totally self-interested, that is I ...My interest is totally self-interested, that is I am only interested in Haplogroup J particularly J1. I am glad the R1 group has been divorced from the Cro Magnons and Palaeolithic Europeans. I have always thought odd that haplogroups like the R group, derivative in the mutation chain, were older than either I or J. I thought it stretching credibility but others had no problem with accepting the Cro Magnon theory. I also found the association of J with the Neolithic and especially our Semitic speaking cousins rather irksome. It is as plain as Shylock's nose that J1 and J2 for that matter are older than the Neolithic and ethnic groups like Jews or Arabs and their religious beliefs. It has always been my belief that J1 in Europe is older than J1 in Arabia or North Africa and the association with the Middle East based on frequencies was a facile and nobrainer conclusion. I am very content with the new figures for the J group.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-11796983815931236892008-04-05T13:14:00.000+03:002008-04-05T13:14:00.000+03:00>> The formal thesis of Geneticists ...Your claim ...>> The formal thesis of Geneticists ...<BR/><BR/>Your claim was that "that enormous industries like Gravettian, Solutrean, etc. carried ONLY ONE Hg and that they carried this to Europe!". <BR/><BR/>Which "geneticists" and where did they make that claim?Dienekes Pontikoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01341303424873475334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-88327472339323772022008-04-05T04:13:00.000+03:002008-04-05T04:13:00.000+03:00Are you kidding Dienekes?The formal thesis of Gene...Are you kidding Dienekes?<BR/>The formal thesis of Geneticists is n't that Aurignacians brought R Hg to Europe and then Gravettians brought Hg I?<BR/>Is n't their thesis that these two Hgs were the first modern sapiens Hgs to come to Europe?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781621903358782011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-17127665886893450942008-04-04T03:07:00.000+03:002008-04-04T03:07:00.000+03:00>> The point is that Geneticists try to convince u...>> The point is that Geneticists try to convince us that enormous industries like Gravettian, Solutrean, etc. carried ONLY ONE Hg and that they carried this to Europe!<BR/><BR/>Speaking about geneticists in general is no good. Which geneticist made such an outlandish statement?Dienekes Pontikoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01341303424873475334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-6595008797659882272008-04-03T22:45:00.000+03:002008-04-03T22:45:00.000+03:00"Affinity" is a vague term, the Y chromosome tree ..."Affinity" is a vague term, the Y chromosome tree represents objective phylogeny. <BR/><BR/>The naming scheme is a methodical (but not unique) way of representing and communicating that phylogeny. <BR/><BR/>The goal is to completely discover the objective and unique human Y chromosome phylogeny; the issue of names for its various clades is seconary.Dienekes Pontikoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01341303424873475334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-34392656223872051152008-04-03T21:55:00.000+03:002008-04-03T21:55:00.000+03:00Dear crimson guard.The Grimaldi skulls you refer t...Dear crimson guard.<BR/>The Grimaldi skulls you refer to are the ones that were found in the Grotte des Enfants cave.<BR/>They were fragmented and reconstruction was poor. That's why many were skeptical in recognizing the racial identity of these skulls.<BR/>Coon my dear friend labeled them as having Negroid features.<BR/>He did n't label them as Caucasoids!!!<BR/>He labeled Combe-Capelle as Caucasoid but not the Grimaldis!<BR/>You don't remember well!<BR/>Read again the "Races of Europe", Chapter II: Pleistocene White Men, Section 7, Chronological and Geographical Differentiation of the European Aurignacian Group.<BR/>The Professor wrote exactly the following:<BR/>"Whence they came to Europe, in the van of the Upper Palaeolithic migrations, is likewise not, at the moment, worthy of extensive argument. They must have come from Africa or southwestern Asia, but until others of the same type have been found, the problem will remain open. They may represent an early negro-white mixture, or a generalized proto-negroid in the process of specialization. They are probably too late, however, in time, to have been contemporary members of the generalized stock which may have been mutually ancestral to the negroes and whites".<BR/>Thus Coon perceived them as Negroid.<BR/>But since they were very fragmented scientists hesitated to say the final verdict about their racial identity.<BR/>Until new skeletons were found from the Iberian Peninsula to Lake Baykal in Siberia, passing through France, Austria, the Crimea, and the Basin of Don, etc. In these last two regions, the late Soviet Professor Mikhail Gerasimov, a scholar of rare objectivity, identified the Negroid type from skulls found there!!!<BR/>Voronezh of Russia also has given very good samples of this type.<BR/>Thus Grimaldi were not Caucasoids and thus they could n't possibly have Y-DNA I Hg.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781621903358782011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-13997761196579052712008-04-03T21:34:00.000+03:002008-04-03T21:34:00.000+03:00Dienekes said:The Y chromosome phylogeny is an obj...Dienekes said:<BR/><BR/>The Y chromosome phylogeny is an objective fact that has nothing to do with "roots" or affinities. The names of the various clades are simply references and could be named in any way one pleased; Y-DNA experts have agreed to follow a particular naming scheme to aid communication.<BR/><BR/>So you believe that the labeling of the various Hgs occurred randomly?<BR/>The reason that the various mutations are named under agreed letters of the alphabet is to show their affinities and roots!<BR/>I thought that this thing was very simple to understand.<BR/>The Hg that was named R1 has a stronger affinity with R2 than A for example. Do you think that this relationship is objective?<BR/>That it is only in the eye of the beholder for example?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781621903358782011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-45539677149523535762008-04-03T21:33:00.000+03:002008-04-03T21:33:00.000+03:00Grimaldi Skull was studied by Professor Coon and i...Grimaldi Skull was studied by Professor Coon and it was determined to have been Caucasoid. Also there is evidence that it was reconstructed wrong originally.Crimson Guardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08259882884691575025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-56224242199369895872008-04-03T21:19:00.000+03:002008-04-03T21:19:00.000+03:00>> It means that they found out evidence that does...>> It means that they found out evidence that does n't correlate these Hgs anymore with their previous roots, affinities, etc.!<BR/><BR/>The Y chromosome phylogeny is an objective fact that has nothing to do with "roots" or affinities. The names of the various clades are simply references and could be named in any way one pleased; Y-DNA experts have agreed to follow a particular naming scheme to aid communication.Dienekes Pontikoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01341303424873475334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-71835804744578660492008-04-03T21:04:00.000+03:002008-04-03T21:04:00.000+03:00" War Lord said... But diversity of R1b decreases ...<I>" War Lord said... <BR/>But diversity of R1b decreases from Central Asia to Europe!"</I><BR/><BR/>Do you have any reference for this?Paul_Johnsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04539185150241250031noreply@blogger.com