tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post9184254857146262784..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Little rare allele sharing between human populations + demographic history estimatesDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-52532980739620454162011-07-08T12:45:49.211+03:002011-07-08T12:45:49.211+03:00"It would also push European-East Asian diver..."It would also push European-East Asian divergence to 50ky, which seems earlier than the appearance of modern humans in Europe, but could be saved, I guess, if ... the divergence began somewhere in Asia, before the arrival of AMH in Europe "<br /><br />I think there is little question that Europe initially was (mostly) populated from Pakistan/India rather than the Levant. At the documented around ~40ky ago, that is not so different from 50k if we allow for some traveling time from ~Pakistan via Neanderthal- "infested" regions to Europe - probably using a northern corridor first, before a southern one once it became safe, and accounting for some cold/dry separation time within that sub-continent.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-34307048210651940752011-07-08T01:23:46.971+03:002011-07-08T01:23:46.971+03:00"I forgot to ask about Sub-Saharan Africans. ..."I forgot to ask about Sub-Saharan Africans. What can you tell us about their physical characteristics 23,000 years ago such as was it negroid, etc?"<br /><br />According to the present data, the Negroid type could be quite recent in Africa. The oldest is the 11 kyr Iwo Eleru skullcap from Nigeria and the 6.4 kyr skeleton from Asselar, eastern Mali. The Khoisanid type is also likely of Holocene age: see "Early to mid-Holocene South African Later Stone Age human crania exhibit a distinctly Khoesan morphological pattern," by D.D. Styndera, R.R. Ackermanna and J.C. Sealy. <br /><br />On the other hand, the earliest South African skull, namely the 36,000 year old Hofmeyr, clustered with Upper Paleolithic Europeans. See F. E. Grine, FE; R. M. Bailey, K. Harvati, R. P. Nathan, A. G. Morris, G. M. Henderson, I. Ribot, A. W. G. Pike (12 January 2007). "Late Pleistocene Human Skull from Hofmeyr, South Africa, and Modern Human Origins". Science 315 (5809): 226–229.<br /><br />So, Dienekes's Upper Paleolithic Caucasoids may have been in South Africa before the formation of modern Khoisans and Negroids.German Dziebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10703679732205862495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-72263999134521369682011-07-07T14:00:29.842+03:002011-07-07T14:00:29.842+03:00I would expect, with the presumed lesser mobility ...<i>I would expect, with the presumed lesser mobility of pre-modern species, the diversity of such species would be greater than that of the modern human species. However I have never seen any analysis of such diversity, excepting in a book by Lee Berger claiming differences between northern and southern Australopithecus species.</i><br /><br />My question was exclusively about modern human subspecies (I prefer the word subspecies to the word race, as it is clearer in meaning), whether extant or non-extant; archaic (=pre-modern) Homo and pre-Homo hominids is another issue.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-89201937163487786662011-07-07T12:08:29.503+03:002011-07-07T12:08:29.503+03:00"Dieneke, what modern human races/subspecies ..."Dieneke, what modern human races/subspecies were there in various regions of the world prior to the emergence of the extant modern human races/subspecies and how different were they from each other and from the extant modern human races/subspecies?" <br /><br />I would expect, with the presumed lesser mobility of pre-modern species, the diversity of such species would be greater than that of the modern human species. However I have never seen any analysis of such diversity, excepting in a book by Lee Berger claiming differences between northern and southern Australopithecus species. <br /><br />"I would also add that Soviet anthropologists identified Mongoloid characteristics in Upper Paleolithic Siberians" <br /><br />It would make complete sense that the Mongoloid phenotype developed there. Most characteristics associated with East Asians appear to be adaptations to a cold, highly reflective environment.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-81960202773645650342011-07-07T11:30:49.503+03:002011-07-07T11:30:49.503+03:00If 1.1x10-8 is more accurate, then that would push...If 1.1x10-8 is more accurate, then that would push African-Eurasian divergence to 109ky, which does correspond to a known event (the appearance of modern humans in the Levant, where previously there lived Neandertals).<br /><br />It would also push European-East Asian divergence to 50ky, which seems earlier than the appearance of modern humans in Europe, but could be saved, I guess, if either the divergence began somewhere in Asia, before the arrival of AMH in Europe and/or there is a little archaic admixture in East Asians inflating the divergence times; archaic admixture in Europeans seems less likely, because the only candidate is Neandertals, and we already know that Europeans have no more Neandertal genes than East Asians do.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-54512323582016367012011-07-07T08:59:55.964+03:002011-07-07T08:59:55.964+03:00These guys used a mutation rate of 2.36 x 10-8 per...These guys used a mutation rate of 2.36 x 10-8 per generation, a rate determined from the measured difference between humans and chimps<br />and an estimate of the human/chimp split time based upon fossil evidence. Recent direct measurements on family triads indicate the that the mutation rate is approximately 1.1 x 10-8 per generation: if correct, this would give substantially different split times.<br /><br />Much older.gcochranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17752921901568851463noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-34901221743816640422011-07-07T07:40:12.227+03:002011-07-07T07:40:12.227+03:00"Instead, we can accept that East-West Eurasi..."Instead, we can accept that East-West Eurasian differentiation began already shortly after Out-of-Africa, and the younger apparent divergence of Europeans and East Asians is due to gene flow, perhaps from an unsampled population that contributed genes to both."<br /><br />Seems to me that India/Pakistan would be a good place for that. During cold/dry times, with the monsoon shut off, it would have supported an East/West separation, since much of the center of the region was inhospitable desert. During times the monsoon switched on again, the area supported mixing and also quick population growth that would have wanted to migrate outwards.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-77678139279031738612011-07-07T04:24:46.040+03:002011-07-07T04:24:46.040+03:00Thank you for the information Dienekes, very inter...Thank you for the information Dienekes, very interesting read. I forgot to ask about Sub-Saharan Africans. What can you tell us about their physical characteristics 23,000 years ago such as was it negroid, etc?Insightfulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00246488050173369103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-24012956993278972962011-07-07T03:00:21.361+03:002011-07-07T03:00:21.361+03:00I'm just stating facts and providing reference...I'm just stating facts and providing references. Just like you...German Dziebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10703679732205862495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-16112094464068718372011-07-07T02:31:14.704+03:002011-07-07T02:31:14.704+03:00Dieneke, what modern human races/subspecies were t...Dieneke, what modern human races/subspecies were there in various regions of the world prior to the emergence of the extant modern human races/subspecies and how different were they from each other and from the extant modern human races/subspecies?Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-53828756606761738432011-07-07T01:44:53.576+03:002011-07-07T01:44:53.576+03:00Ok, you've said your piece; let me remind you ...Ok, you've said your piece; let me remind you that the Out-of-America theory of human origins is not allowed in this blog.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-63275929500052722002011-07-07T01:36:27.457+03:002011-07-07T01:36:27.457+03:00"Also, Paleoindians (who migrated into the Ne..."Also, Paleoindians (who migrated into the New World c. 15kya) do not yet possess a Mongoloid appearance, even though their present-day descendants are undeniably aligned morphologically with East Asians to a substantial degree."<br /><br />There's no evidence for a migration to the New World 15,000 years. The earliest skulls with a generalized Mongoloid shape appear in North America and not in Asia: "Peter Brown (1999) of the Department of Anthropology and Paleoanthropology at the University of New England evaluated three sites with early East Asian modern human skeletal remains (Liujiang, Liuzhou, Guangxi, China; Shandingdong Man of (but not Peking Man) Zhoukoudian's Upper Cave; and Minatogawa in Okinawa) dated to between 10,175 to 33,200 years ago, and finds lack of support for the conventional designation of skeletons from this period as "Proto-Mongoloid"; this would make Neolithic sites 5500 to 7000 years ago (e.g. Banpo) the oldest known Mongoloid remains in East Asia, younger than some in the Americas. He concludes that the origin of the Mongoloid phenotype remains unknown, and could even lie in the New World" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloid_race).<br /><br />This means, by the logic of the authors of this paper and by Dienekes's logic, that the ostensibly recent separation of East Asians and Amerindians can be explained as an artifact of gene flow from America to Asia some 12,000 years ago. That population may have carried with it back to the Old World the incipient "Mongoloid" morphology. Some aspects of this morphology, however, may be plesiomorphic, as shovel-shaped incisors (90% in Amerindians, 85% in Northern Mongoloids) are found at high frequencies in Neandertals and at low frequencies in Africans.German Dziebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10703679732205862495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-64048523623267576902011-07-07T00:51:43.391+03:002011-07-07T00:51:43.391+03:00but what can you tell us about the physical charac...<i>but what can you tell us about the physical characteristics of East Asians at that time?.. </i><br /><br />The earliest full-blown Mongoloids appear in Neolithic China, as far as I can determine<br /><br />http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/earliest-examples-of-four-major-racial.html<br /><br />Upper Cave people from China seem to have "Polynesioid" affinities, and people from southeast Asia "Australoid" affinities. In any case, they look different from Europeans, which is inconsistent with them diverging as recently as 23,000 years ago.<br /><br />I would also add that Soviet anthropologists identified Mongoloid characteristics in Upper Paleolithic Siberians<br /><br />http://dienekes.awardspace.com/blog/archives/000399.html<br /><br />Also, Paleoindians (who migrated into the New World c. 15kya) do not yet possess a Mongoloid appearance, even though their present-day descendants are undeniably aligned morphologically with East Asians to a substantial degree.<br /><br /><br />In general, the emergence of Mongoloids is more obscure than that of the Caucasoids of West Eurasia.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-15648781547827528082011-07-06T22:43:43.249+03:002011-07-06T22:43:43.249+03:00We understand that there were already ‘typical Cau...We understand that there were already ‘typical Caucasoid physical characteristics’ by 23,000 years ago, but what can you tell us about the physical characteristics of East Asians at that time?..Insightfulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00246488050173369103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-22067958416773344792011-07-06T21:57:59.311+03:002011-07-06T21:57:59.311+03:00''unfortunately, one of the great defects ...<i>''unfortunately, one of the great defects of the 1000 Genomes Project is its lack of African hunter-gatherers, which are, perhaps the most interesting populations for human origins research.''</i><br /><br />I agree, but judging from this statement on the informed consent background document of the 1000 genomes project it is unlikely that they would include these groups.<br /><br />''<i>The 1000 Genomes Project will not include samples from populations or communities<br />that are determined to be particularly vulnerable. For example, small, isolated<br />populations may make participants vulnerable to identification, stigmatization, or<br />invasion of privacy. Other populations may be vulnerable due to factors such as<br />socioeconomic status. Determinations regarding vulnerability will be made by the<br />project Steering Committee in consultation with the Samples/ELSI Group and other<br />relevant experts.</i>''jes-rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13572668095214926909noreply@blogger.com