tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post9169787418439787984..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: ASHG 2008 abstractsDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-78009557815521090052008-09-27T18:38:00.000+03:002008-09-27T18:38:00.000+03:00There's plenty of R1b east of the Black Sea, and i...There's plenty of R1b east of the Black Sea, and it packs a lot more variance and age there than in western Europe.Polakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08791738703122670119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-42954825228879494842008-09-27T17:44:00.000+03:002008-09-27T17:44:00.000+03:00This thread is reinforcing some thinking I have be...This thread is reinforcing some thinking I have been doing lately as to where did the earliest settlers of western europe came from?? It seems pretty clear that the Neolithic "Invasion" was pretty much east to west. I am starting to wonder if the earliest emigrants didn't come from Africa across the Gibraltar straits??? There are traces of info to suggest that: 1. The climate of northern africa c. 10K to 15K BP.- wasmuch more supportive of life and travel. 2. The "mini stone henge" at Nabta Playa in Egypt and its antiquity. 3. The presence of R1b in Egypt and and countries bounding the Sahara as described above. 4. The lack of a strong presence of R1b in the regions east of the Black Sea, indicating a more recent population/repopulation?<BR/><BR/>All of this suggests that out of Africa at Gibraltar is plausible. I would like to read any opinion/other resources on this subject. TIA. bobMcGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03459589185170647441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-33573376241181095192008-09-27T00:27:00.000+03:002008-09-27T00:27:00.000+03:00Again, with all this talk of supposedly European m...Again, with all this talk of supposedly European mtDNA and Y-DNA haplogroups among the Mongols, one must wonder why on earth the Mongols look as un-European as they do, and why studies of various autosomal loci and epigenetic traits (gammaglobulin types, ABO blood system, skeletal morphology, etc.) position Mongols at the extreme of the Mongoloid pole. I believe that the totality of the data regarding Mongols would not support a claim that they are a derived, hybrid population.<BR/><BR/>I think it is much more likely that the Mongols are rather an ancient population that has continuously inhabited a territory close to the homeland of the ancestral proto-Eurasian population.Ebizurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16925110639823856429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-13063322434793035512008-09-26T23:59:00.000+03:002008-09-26T23:59:00.000+03:00Question on PygmiesIt’s interesting that 30% of py...<B>Question on Pygmies</B><BR/><BR/>It’s interesting that 30% of pygmies have Bantoid Y haplogroup…which would be exogenous genetic inflow…why are they so short? Is this gene dominent or are there some other factors involved (like Pgymy women have problems delivering normal size children)?<BR/><BR/><B>Comments on Mongols</B><BR/><BR/>As far as the mtdna admixture in Mongols…could this be pre-Mongol expansion? The Eurasian steppe was full of horseback nomads long before that and there was obviously a Slavic, Indo-Persian speaking, and Turkic speaking population with the Mongols on the far Eastside of this cline. Could this just be a result of normal gene flow between nomadic people? I could imagine them trading women like horse, sheep, etc for good they could not make themselves. The Chinese also recorded people who appeared to be Western Eurasian in the current area of Xinjiang, as early as the 2nd century BCE. Xinjing borders Mongolia and although I do not know the topography of the land various turko-mongol groups have been in an out of the area since that time period (and maybe before).UncleTomRuckusInGoodWhiteWorldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07508650487951730570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-57503432703039651442008-09-26T22:44:00.000+03:002008-09-26T22:44:00.000+03:00Crimson:I got this from Wiki, but I also wrote it ...Crimson:<BR/><BR/>I got this from Wiki, but I also wrote it myself and updated it with a source about a year ago:<BR/>"Some Y-chromosomes that appear to be closely related to the northern Cameroonian R1b1*(P25-derived) are found at a substantial frequency among the modern population of Egypt. Many modern populations of northern Cameroon speak Chadic languages, which are classified as an ancient branch of the Afro-Asiatic superfamily of languages; the now extinct language of the Ancient Egyptians also belonged to the same superfamily."<BR/>This could be two things.<BR/>A migration from Egypt, through Sudan, through Chad or Central African Republic into Cameroon.<BR/>Another theory, which I think is more likely, is a more recent migration of people in the Sudan in both directions...one going into Upper Egypt in historical times (as we can document Sudanese inflow into Egypt for a very long time) and an outward migration from Sudan across the Sahel...and maybe slightly South into Cameroon.<BR/>Does anyone know what tribe(s) have such a high rate of R1b1*? I loked up the tribes in those ergions and could only find one who spoke a Chadic language in the entire country and they are not numerous; the Northeast Central Plain (the closest geographically to Egypt-Sudan )is heavily populated, but not with Chadic speakers. The Kirdi speak a Chadic language and live in the Northern desert near the Fulani. <BR/>Anyway, if it came from some source in Egypt or Sudan, where did that source come from?<BR/>Haplogroup T also can be found in Cameroon. It is likely R1b1* and T came together from Western Eurasia. Maybe from , BUT it is at its highest frequency in the Fulani and Somalis, not in Western Eurasian peoples, although present. T could have originated in the East African horne, but R did not…hmmmUncleTomRuckusInGoodWhiteWorldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07508650487951730570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-8261906756986440142008-09-26T21:49:00.000+03:002008-09-26T21:49:00.000+03:00Polak,It would seem to me that Berbers from North ...Polak,<BR/><BR/>It would seem to me that Berbers from North Africa, carrying Islam South, would have contributed their genes too - same with Berbers carrying Islam North into Iberia as well.<BR/>But in the case of Northern Portugal, it would have to be a Neolithic event, like Ibero-Maurusian or Oranian Culture.<BR/><BR/>More here:<BR/>http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/08/24/ancient-north-african-population-movements/pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-5137283432781722022008-09-26T21:34:00.000+03:002008-09-26T21:34:00.000+03:00polak said,"I don't know of any major events that ...polak said,<BR/><BR/>"I don't know of any major events that contributed to the Yorubans having a lot of North African admixture."<BR/><BR/>The Hausa and Fulani in Nigeria are often grouped together for demographic analysis (I guess the rationale is that they are "those Muslim folk" or something), and they together form the majority of the Nigerian population. The Yoruba are the second-most numerous demographic group in Nigeria after the Hausa-Fulani. Since the Hausa and Fulani are widely believed (and now pretty much proven) to have significant North African (or at least non-SSA) ancestry, it wouldn't be surprising if the Yoruba, their southern neighbors within the state of Nigeria, also shared some of that (or a similar, related sort of) North African ancestry.Ebizurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16925110639823856429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-10341995938958171682008-09-26T20:12:00.000+03:002008-09-26T20:12:00.000+03:00Interesting, but tricky. Aside from Portugal there...Interesting, but tricky. Aside from Portugal there isnt any SSA admixture in any realistic presence to constitute a "highter proportion" as this article makes it seem according to these haplotype allele values as stated in this study. <BR/><BR/>BTW, I am just curious here, Dienekes, if theres an absence of pre-historic migration explanation, then whats the explanation for Cameroon carrying something like 90% R1b? Is this from a "Out of Africa/back migration or modern slave era phenomenon? Could this have any bearing on the matter or no?Crimson Guardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08259882884691575025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-52905294187876706922008-09-26T19:27:00.000+03:002008-09-26T19:27:00.000+03:00I suspect that has something to do with the low sa...I suspect that has something to do with the low samples used there, because mtDNa data shows relatively large amounts of sub-Saharan admixture in parts of Iberia. Up to about 9% in parts of Portugal...and then as low as 0% in many parts of Spain.<BR/><BR/>I'm sure we'll see that reflected in genome wide SNPs if large enough samples are taken.Polakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08791738703122670119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-62510788715233671502008-09-26T19:06:00.000+03:002008-09-26T19:06:00.000+03:00There might be some, but I think we're looking at ...<I>There might be some, but I think we're looking at sub-Saharan influence here, at least in considerable part.</I><BR/><BR/>Perhaps, but that conclusion can't be drawn from the available information, since no North African populations were sampled. The one autosomal <A HREF="http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2007/02/european-population-stratification.html" REL="nofollow">study</A> we do have about the Spanish does not suggest Sub-Saharan admixture.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-45200552929429857902008-09-26T18:59:00.000+03:002008-09-26T18:59:00.000+03:00Btw Dienekes, do you know when this will be a prop...Btw Dienekes, do you know when this will be a proper published report?Polakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08791738703122670119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-54902653176484329222008-09-26T18:53:00.000+03:002008-09-26T18:53:00.000+03:00I don't know of any major events that contributed ...I don't know of any major events that contributed to the Yorubans having a lot of North African admixture.<BR/><BR/>There might be some, but I think we're looking at sub-Saharan influence here, at least in considerable part.Polakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08791738703122670119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-37728374790790162632008-09-26T18:39:00.000+03:002008-09-26T18:39:00.000+03:00What exactly do they mean by this?"Additionally, a...<I>What exactly do they mean by this?<BR/><BR/>"Additionally, a higher proportion of haplotypes are shared between the southwestern European sample and the Yoruba sample than between southeastern European sample and the Yoruba sample."</I><BR/><BR/>A haplotype is a set of allele values in a number of SNPs. For example if there are three SNPs with values C/T, A/G, A/T then there are 8 possible haplotypes:<BR/><BR/>CAA<BR/>CAT<BR/>CGA<BR/>CGT<BR/>TAA<BR/>TAT<BR/>TGA<BR/>TGT<BR/><BR/>Not all haplotypes are usually observed, since some SNPs may be fixed in one population, or because some SNPs may be in linkage disequilibrium with each other, i.e., they are inherited together and are not split up by recombination.<BR/><BR/>Any two populations have (i) some haplotypes in common, and (ii) some haplotypes specific to each one of them.<BR/><BR/>Of the (i), there are (a) some haplotypes are conserved features of the common ancestors of the two groups, while (b) others arose in one of the two populations and were later added to the other population.<BR/><BR/>Nearby populations (along migration routes) share a greater fraction of their haplotypes with each other.<BR/><BR/>In the absence of admixture, SW Europeans are expected to share fewer haplotypes with Africans than SE Europeans, since SE Europeans are closer to Africa in the route taken by early modern humans as they migrated out of the continent.<BR/><BR/>The finding that the opposite is true suggests that the genomes of SW Europeans are enriched in African haplotypes via a separate source, directly from Africa, and this has occurred after the "Out of Africa" migration.<BR/><BR/>Also, note that the larger sharing of haplotypes between SW Europeans Yoruba does not in itself indicate the presence of Sub-Saharan admixture in SW Europe, as the shared haplotypes could be due to a common source contributing to both populations. The North Africans are an obvious candidate for such a common source, as they are known to have influenced genetically both Sub-Saharan Africa and Iberia.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-58057163561245834552008-09-26T17:43:00.000+03:002008-09-26T17:43:00.000+03:00They mean Iberians have more African (including su...They mean Iberians have more African (including sub-Saharan) admixture than southeast Europeans.<BR/><BR/>I'd love to see some diagrams from that report...when it becomes a report.Polakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08791738703122670119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-3434921910653376192008-09-26T15:37:00.000+03:002008-09-26T15:37:00.000+03:00What exactly do they mean by this?"Additionally, a...What exactly do they mean by this?<BR/><BR/>"Additionally, a higher proportion of haplotypes are shared between the southwestern European sample and the Yoruba sample than between southeastern European sample and the Yoruba sample."Crimson Guardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08259882884691575025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-54892651669649451402008-09-26T15:08:00.000+03:002008-09-26T15:08:00.000+03:00The Hutterite study and the use of .00067 is inter...The Hutterite study and the use of .00067 is interesting. Klyoshov, on rootsweb, has already shown that using his natural log rule and Chandlers rates he gets the "right" answer. I am a user of the ZUL number, until something better is found?? The discussion of this result should be interesting. I have been studying VV's norther italian data set and am mulling over my results. Gioello may have something going for him??McGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03459589185170647441noreply@blogger.com