tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post8802347879047986707..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: fastIBD over 2,257 EuropeansDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-52707398606726768712013-09-29T19:07:47.921+03:002013-09-29T19:07:47.921+03:00This is an extremely interesting post. I am partic...This is an extremely interesting post. I am particularly interested about the genetic admixture of Greek Cypriots and their differences/similarities with mainland Greeks. I totally agree with all the comments highlighting the 'Northern European' component as the one distinguishing the different ethnic Greek population subgroups. I would also add to that the 'East European' component, which (as with the North Eur component) is highly associated with the Slavic expansion. If you look closely at the Dodecad k12b raw data, you will notice that the main difference between Greek Cypriots and mainland Greeks is the huge difference in the 'North European' component (4.5% vs. 20.2%, respectively). Similarly, when looking at the Dodecad v3 raw data, mainland Greeks have an 'East European' admixture of 11%, while for Greek Cypriots it is just 3.4%. Another major difference is the Cucausus component which is much more dominating among Greek Cypriots (49.3%) compared to mainland Greeks (37.4%). Just a final comment, there is a very bizarre lack of western European admixture among the Dodecad v3 Cypriot sample (1.3%!). I will write a separate post about this issue however. Alexandroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17367338366334463624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-73694710374085625872013-09-29T19:02:06.653+03:002013-09-29T19:02:06.653+03:00This is an extremely interesting post. I am partic...This is an extremely interesting post. I am particularly interested about the genetic admixture of Greek Cypriots and their differences/similarities with mainland Greeks. I totally agree with all the comments highlighting the 'Northern European' component as the one distinguishing the different ethnic Greek population subgroups. I would also add to that the 'East European' component, which (as with the North Eur component) is highly associated with the Slavic expansion. If you look closely at the Dodecad k12b raw data, you will notice that the main difference between Greek Cypriots and mainland Greeks is the huge difference in the 'North European' component (4.5% vs. 20.2%, respectively). Similarly, when looking at the Dodecad v3 raw data, mainland Greeks have an 'East European' admixture of 11%, while for Greek Cypriots it is just 3.4%. Another major difference is the Cucausus component which is much more dominating among Greek Cypriots (49.3%) compared to mainland Greeks (37.4%). Just a final comment, there is a very bizarre lack of western European admixture among the dv3 Dodecad Cypriot sample (1.3%!). I will write a separate post about this issue however. Alexandroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17367338366334463624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-1405741925720441182013-02-10T01:18:19.389+02:002013-02-10T01:18:19.389+02:00>> Pontic Greeks and Cypriot Greeks both hav...>> Pontic Greeks and Cypriot Greeks both have only 5% north european.<br /><br />Cyprus was colonized by Phoenicians as well so it is logical that even in ancient times there must have been some differences between mainland Greeks and Ancient Greeks. Cypriots having less Northern European Ancestry. <br /><br />Also, Cyprus was never invaded by the Dorians. They could have brought more Northern European ancestry with them. <br /><br />In Crete you had the Minoans who had more Near Eastern Admixture compared to mainland Greeks too. This may also be true for the islanders. <br /><br />I would say that Central and Northern Greece had more Northern European admixture than other parts of the Greek world, and that some more came during the middle ages. <br /><br />We will have to wait and see some more results on the rate of diversity of Ancient Greeks. In any case history surely suggests there may have been some.Constantinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10096904498307985488noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-41847866370508160512013-01-26T05:09:04.352+02:002013-01-26T05:09:04.352+02:00Pontic Greeks and Cypriot Greeks both have only 5%...Pontic Greeks and Cypriot Greeks both have only 5% north european.<br /><br />Those two populations had no links with Greece's northern neighbours during antiquity nor during slavic invasions.<br /><br />Concerning Greeks (today Greeks, ancient Greeks and medieval Greecs), it seems very important to have results from all regions separately (Creta, Asia Minor, Thrace, Cyprus, Rhodes, Pontic Greeks etc) because it is obvious that the results are not the same. It is very interesting to see that those populations have a very strong common identity based on common language, religion, history despite of invasions and conquests. This shows the strenght of Greek culture. <br /><br />A little bit of genetic diversity is not a problem when identity is strong - with ancient Greek roots of course, because even if there have been some mixtures, there is no Greek identity, language, culture, if there is no ancient Greece. <br /><br />This identity already existed in the region before slavic or Turkish identity. I wonder if Greek identity will manage to be as strong as this with the new immigrants coming in Greece from islamic countries (I know that many muslim pomaks feel they are Greeks but I don't think pomak culture cannot be compared with Afghan and Pakistanese culture can it?).<br /><br />Concerning slavic invasions, most searchers now admit that East Roman Empire (sorry I don't like the terms "Byzantine empire" which means nothing) deported some slavic tribes from Greece to Asia Minor and some Christians from Asia minor (Greeks, Armenians) to Greece. Is there any genetic evidence of this?<br /><br />Concerning Cyprus, there are so many Russians in Cyprus now... This is the new slavic (peaceful) "invasion" which will change Cyprus genetics in a few years : )pshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04632702338090014070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-33617842651849315872012-08-29T01:27:44.042+03:002012-08-29T01:27:44.042+03:00@Dienekes
It's not entirely speculative. In f...<br />@Dienekes<br /><br />It's not entirely speculative. In fact, based on the historical demograohics of Ancient Greece, I would say it is speculative to assume that all Greeks looked exactly the same. I.e. that the Greeks of Cyprus looked exactly the same as the Greeks of Macedonia or Thessaly. <br /><br />As you pointed out, you can walk from the Peloponesse to Thessaly in a few days. Well, within a few days you can walk from Thessaly to Thrace. And we do have accounts that Thracians looked more northern compared to Greeks. Since all paleo-balkanic people lived in close geographical proximity and we have accounts that Thracians looked different from Greeks, it is therefore logical to assume that there may have been gradual differences in the complexion of Greeks and that the mainland Greeks of Thessaly, Boaetia, Epirus, Macedonia were something in between Southern Greeks and Thracians. Ofcourse the differences between Northern and Southern Greeks, like today, were not extreme and not considerable enough to mention by the Ancient writers. <br /><br />Having said that, I don't deny that medieval migrations may have had an impact as well. But we shouldn't underestimate some genetic diversity in Ancient Greece as well.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01686325221772844935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-22640387517279102322012-08-28T12:04:32.028+03:002012-08-28T12:04:32.028+03:00We know for example that the proto-hellenes were c...<i>We know for example that the proto-hellenes were centered in Epirus, Thessaly and Macedonia. From there they spread througout what came to be known as the Greek world. During that time the Pelopponesse, Crete and the Aegean were more densely inhabited by pre-hellenic peoples who probably had less North-European ancestry. </i><br /><br />You can walk from the Peloponnese to Thessaly in a few days. It's not like these regions are in completely different latitudes, they're very closeby in the wider European context.<br /><br /><i>My point is that there was genetic diversity in Ancient Greece. Central and Northern Greece were more Northern European, while Southern Greeks (the bulk of the Ancient Greek colonisers)were mostly descendants of Neolithic pre-Greeks.</i><br /><br />That's speculation in the absence of data. Actually, the only data we have is the absence of any mention of phenotypic differences between Greek peoples; if some types of Greeks were much more North European than others, then this would have been noticed and commented on by the ancient writers, but nothing like that has survived in the ancient literature.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-62546922580854257742012-08-28T11:54:04.395+03:002012-08-28T11:54:04.395+03:00There's something dubious on your conclusions ...There's something dubious on your conclusions here Dienekes. <br /><br />First of all, in analyzing ancient historical migrations it is very logical that we should expect more North European ancestry in mainland Greeks.<br /><br />We know for example that the proto-hellenes were centered in Epirus, Thessaly and Macedonia. From there they spread througout what came to be known as the Greek world. During that time the Pelopponesse, Crete and the Aegean were more densely inhabited by pre-hellenic peoples who probably had less North-European ancestry. <br /><br />The Greeks who colonised Italy were mostly from the South(Pelopponesse) and had to this day have less North European ancestry than other mainland Greeks. They mixed with the native Italians who in turn also mixed with Phoenicians, so the percentage of North European haplogroups declined. <br /><br />Same can be said for Asia minor Greeks and Pontians. <br /><br />My point is that there was genetic diversity in Ancient Greece. Central and Northern Greece were more Northern European, while Southern Greeks (the bulk of the Ancient Greek colonisers)were mostly descendants of Neolithic pre-Greeks. Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01686325221772844935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-84472725354088246162012-07-22T11:00:08.620+03:002012-07-22T11:00:08.620+03:00Sorry for the wrong info, i will talk on that link...Sorry for the wrong info, i will talk on that link.<br />Good times.Nirjhar007https://www.blogger.com/profile/12880827026479135118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-53241569977433105772012-07-22T10:27:07.037+03:002012-07-22T10:27:07.037+03:00@Nirjhar007
1) You are OFF TOPIC.
2) Posting a s...@Nirjhar007<br /><br />1) You are OFF TOPIC. <br />2) Posting a synthetic frequency map is not the same as posting actual data. You claimed, for example, that Bihar Brahmins don't have J2 and they do (Sahoo et al. 2006). In fact all of the groups labelled Brahmin in that large study possess J2.<br /><br />Posting erroneous information is a big no-no if you want to continue commenting on this blog. I don't doublecheck most of the assertions posted on this blog, but if you want to contradict me, you'd better bring it.<br /><br /><i>The Genealogical rate date of J2a is ~800b.c In 800b.c.</i><br /><br />No, it is not:<br /><br />http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/08/origin-of-hindu-brahmins.htmlDienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-2115109261750448922012-07-22T08:16:29.897+03:002012-07-22T08:16:29.897+03:00http://www.pnas.org/content/103/4/843/F2.large.jpg...http://www.pnas.org/content/103/4/843/F2.large.jpg<br />Similarly with Thangaraj et al.(2010) The distribution of y-dna J2 is weak on the Eastern half of the whole country now the Sahoo et al. 2005 also provides as you can see the concentration of Hgs but the J2 is only concentrated on the West Southern India and as Mukherjee et al. Have noted its worthy presence in S Indian Brahmins, but incase of West Bengal Brahmins, Bhumihar Brahmins (Bihar), Uttarpradesh Brahmins, Utkala Brahmins, Karnataka Brahmins etc. the Presence of J2 is 0 but R1a1,R2a and H are present!! Check the Wiki.<br />The Genealogical rate date of J2a is ~800b.c In 800b.c. There was an archaeologic intrusion in The Indus Basin and a part of Chitpavan etc. South western Brahmins are noted to be of Recent Indo-scythian/Iranian origin so the J2a is clearly young than the AMT plot in India.<br />Good times.<br />P.S. What if Farmana DNA provides J2a with R1a1, R2a etc? The story will be quite different with direct evidence.<br />Ta ta... N.Nirjhar007https://www.blogger.com/profile/12880827026479135118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-50113040741960417132012-07-21T16:08:50.992+03:002012-07-21T16:08:50.992+03:00Is it possible that this is the case because many ...<i>Is it possible that this is the case because many so-called Germanic tribes, especially those labeled East Germanic, were in reality Slavic (or proto-Slavic) in totality, or at least in some some substantial proportion?</i><br /><br />sds,<br /><br />Archeology, historic references, linguistics, and substantiating genetic results tell us otherwise. <br /><br />For one, archeological continuity exists and evidently united northern German areas with those of at least Western Poland east of the Oder, if not (by most scholars) the Vistula on both shores - at least 2,000 - 4,000 years ago.<br /><br />Historic references name eastern tribes east of the Oder to the Vistula and all the way to to Romania and the Ukraine ~2,500-1,500 years ago as clearly Germanic.<br /><br />There are very ancient Proto-Germanic attestations into Uralic, much earlier than into or from Slavic. Early Germanic tribes clearly bordered Uralic ones, and <i>surviving</i> German-Slavic language exchange - while plenty - can be traced to be exclusively rather recent.<br /><br />Finally, both autosomal and y-DNA genetic results have been confirming this picture from day one.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-10250615133806789302012-07-21T13:43:15.870+03:002012-07-21T13:43:15.870+03:00What about the arabic/semitic influences/admixture...<i>What about the arabic/semitic influences/admixtures in Crete, Sicily, Cyprus or Pontus? Why these places should be considered as "clean Greek" per genetic samples?</i><br /><br />This can also be quantified:<br /><br />http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/02/correspondence-between-chromopainter.html<br /><br />For example, pop8 has 9% SW_Asian and pop13 has 11%, pop22 has 9%, even Cypriot pop11 18%.<br /><br />Overall, it seems that the SW_Asian component which is modal in Arabs and well-represented in Semitic populations does not vary a great deal in these groups. This is also in agreement with Y chromosomes where there is a limited contribution of such lineages. <br /><br />More than a 4-fold reduction in the levels of North_European would require substantial levels of admixture. This would have to happen simultaneously in a broad arc of "southern populations" from Italy to Armenia. Also, we have the evidence about the date of this admixture. Overall, on balance, an increase in the N European from a non-zero base seems like a more parsimonious explanation.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-1140526118189031922012-07-21T11:56:57.224+03:002012-07-21T11:56:57.224+03:00Hi,
What about the arabic/semitic influences/admi...Hi, <br />What about the arabic/semitic influences/admixtures in Crete, Sicily, Cyprus or Pontus? Why these places should be considered as "clean Greek" per genetic samples? What I mean is that the percentage influx of North Europeans in Mainland Greece might not be totally of Slav invaders as the percentage of North Europeans in Crete, Sicily, Cyprus etc might have been altered by influx of other races in these regions that would bring down the percentage of North Europeans.rohamiushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11303370406161327349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-7131610417255155242012-07-21T07:41:43.617+03:002012-07-21T07:41:43.617+03:00@ eurologist said: "With regard to Germanic a...@ eurologist said: "With regard to Germanic and Slavic expansion, one can make some interesting observations. Firstly, Germans share few ancestors within themselves, probably due to a large and not very homogenous population (Germans at the periphery tend to be rather similar to their neighboring populations). But this also means that if some group (say Eastern Germanic tribes) migrated elsewhere, they are not particularly closely related to Germans, today, and thus don't leave that type of signature behind. <br /><br />Conversely, the Eastern Germanic tribes (and general population of that area) may have completely mixed in within the Slavic expansion, and even before one can use those terms: for example, the "BAL" component shares a huge number of ancient ancestors with Serbo-Croatians, but also with Germans." Is it possible that this is the case because many so-called Germanic tribes, especially those labeled East Germanic, were in reality Slavic (or proto-Slavic) in totality, or at least in some some substantial proportion?sdshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015082997496819465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-10808334935737347222012-07-20T20:03:51.057+03:002012-07-20T20:03:51.057+03:00I've read that particular work of Charanis a l...<i>I've read that particular work of Charanis a long time ago, but I respectfully recommend that you re-read the Byzantine primaries and also consult with more recent scholarship such as the "The Emperor Maurice and His Historian" by Michael Whitby, "The Making of the Slavs" by Florin Curta, "A History of Byzantium" by Timothy Gregory, "Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium" by Alexander Kazhdan, etc.</i><br /><br />It does not particularly matter if scholarship is recent or not. Florin Curta for example, imagines that the Slavs were "made" by the Byzantines, and that the Slavic tongue spread as a lingua franca of the Avar khaganate. He proposes that the "spread of the Slavs" is illusory, and the spread of the "Slavic language" was a cultural phenomenon. The discovery that Eastern Europeans consistently share an excess IBD tracts dating to medieval period disproves that hypothesis.<br /><br /><i>So forgive me if I'm not really convinced by your assertion that the IBD study somehow proves your personal estimate of 10-20% admixture when the authors of the IBD study have explicitly mentioned their reservations ("unknown demographic effects") and have explicitly mentioned the fact that the Slavic genetic impact on Greeks was quite limited.</i><br /><br />I did not assert that _the study_ has that estimate. That is my personal estimate based on the excess of North_European in the mainland Greek population relative to non-mainland Greeks, S Italians/Sicilians, Anatolians of various kinds, that clearly points towards a local excess of such ancestry. Depending on one's assumptions about how much North_European there was in Greece pre-6th century, and how much North_European there was in early Slavs, one can come up with different numbers, and to repeat what I actually said:<br /><br />"How much remains to be seen. My personal guess is like 10-20% for mainland Greece, and this is based on thinking that North_European was much lower (but not non-existent) in late antique Greeks, and that the Slavs would have been substantially North_European when they started to move, a little like their Baltic cousins who are like 90% North_European today."<br /><br /><i>All the IBD study confirms, as far as I know, is that the Slavs had a negligible genetic influence on both Greek and Albanian populations (pp. 14-15)</i><br /><br />The study in no way characterizes the amount of genetic influence as "negligible".<br /><br /><i>P.S. By the way, why are your articles on Greek DNA unavailable?</i><br /><br />I no longer maintain those. You can replace 110mb or 50webs with ifreepages or awardspace, there ought to be mirrors over there.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-15132166519556519122012-07-20T19:27:37.355+03:002012-07-20T19:27:37.355+03:00Why are Swedes, Balts, Germans, Poles, and Norther...<i>Why are Swedes, Balts, Germans, Poles, and Northern Balkans uniquely related through so many ancestors?</i><br /><br />That BAL and SC result you mentioned strikes me as very strange and dubious. Maybe Dienekes could try to replicate it on the Dodecad set?aspromavrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05416539355662136692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-49991623674998711002012-07-20T19:15:55.635+03:002012-07-20T19:15:55.635+03:00@Dienekes
"See p. 40 ff"
I've read...@Dienekes<br /><br />"See p. 40 ff"<br /><br />I've read that particular work of Charanis a long time ago, but I respectfully recommend that you re-read the Byzantine primaries and also consult with more recent scholarship such as the "The Emperor Maurice and His Historian" by Michael Whitby, "The Making of the Slavs" by Florin Curta, "A History of Byzantium" by Timothy Gregory, "Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium" by Alexander Kazhdan, etc.<br /><br />Also, you may want to do some research on what exactly the "Chronicle of Monemvasia" is rather than believe everything Peter Charanis says about it ("absolutely trustworthy"). It's pretty obvious that Charanis relies on the "historicity" of the "Chronicle" to justify his claims even though the Byzantine primaries that the "Chronicle" relies on make no mention of Slavs settling in Greece on a massive scale. Even the toponyms "discovered" by Max Vasmer appear to be dubious given that they are surprisingly absent from the Byzantine literary (except for "Avarino" and "Sclavohori"). And even if these toponyms existed, they don't necessarily serve as direct evidence of Slavic settlement (as clearly stated by Vacalopoulos's "Origins of the Greek Nation"). So forgive me if I'm not really convinced by your assertion that the IBD study somehow proves your personal estimate of 10-20% admixture when the authors of the IBD study have explicitly mentioned their reservations ("unknown demographic effects") and have explicitly mentioned the fact that the Slavic genetic impact on Greeks was quite limited.<br /><br />"The genetic data is fairly clear about the existence of Slavonic influence in the modern mainland Greek population. The current study only confirms this by being able to date the admixture event, in agreement with the historical sources."<br /><br />I mean no offense, but you appear to operate under the false assumption that I'm denying the existence of admixture between Greeks and Slavs just because I disagree with your personal estimate of 10%-20% admixture. But even if the "genetic data" more or less concurs with your personal estimate, that doesn't necessarily mean that the data in question is entirely accurate ("false positives"), devoid of limitations, or that it concurs 100% with other forms of evidence (the authors of the IBD study talk about false positives and the need for corroborative evidence).<br /><br />All the IBD study confirms, as far as I know, is that the Slavs had a negligible genetic influence on both Greek and Albanian populations (pp. 14-15), which coincides with the significant dearth of Slavic cultural elements in Greece as attested by multiple scholars including Alexander Kazhdan. And though you are entitled to publish any estimates you see fit (it's your blog after all), that doesn't mean that you're numbers are always reflective of historical actuality.<br /><br />"There are no Albanian-speaking Greeks, or Slavic-speaking Greeks, or Vlach-speaking Greeks. Of course, it's understandable that some people are expansive in their use of the term "Greek", but I'm not one of them."<br /><br />As surely as there were/are no English-speaking Greeks, or Swedish-speaking Greeks, or Turkish-speaking Greeks, etc. Even your country's first prime-minister, Kapodistrias, was born in Venetian-held Corfu and was in the Russian foreign service during the reign of Alexander I (r. 1801-1825). Was he not an Italian-speaking and Russian-speaking Greek?<br /><br />Cheers and thanks for the chat.<br /><br /><br />Mr. Guy<br /><br />P.S. By the way, why are your articles on Greek DNA unavailable?Mr. Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13071129804140633762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-31744444097334122492012-07-20T17:09:53.203+03:002012-07-20T17:09:53.203+03:00eurologist, what makes you think I2a1b1a was Germa...<i>eurologist, what makes you think I2a1b1a was Germanic when it is not found at appreciable levels in any Germanic-speaking population?</i><br /><br />aspromavro,<br /><br />Because East Germanic tribes do not exist, any longer, and I2a1b1a is a very recently emerged, <i>highly-derivative</i> subgroup with demonstrably huge founder effects - similar to <i>those</i> (likely originally Ukrainian) Ria subgroups that characterize Slavic expansion at the 5-15% level (over those that are ancient in Central Europe). <br /><br />Had I not labelled them "Eastern Germanic", but had simply said "long-time residents of the area between the Oder and Vistula rivers, and slightly beyond, during the fall of the Roman empire with excursions to Romania, sometimes farther south, often farther SE to the Ukraine, later joining Slavic expansion to the far East and into the northern Balkans" perhaps you wouldn't think twice about it.<br /><br />But, as I alluded to further above, autosomal DNA exactly and completely confirms this. Why are Swedes, Balts, Germans, Poles, and Northern Balkans <i>uniquely</i> related through so many ancestors? Because they are tied to a climatically often very small, unique, but very homogenous population living in the center of that region, and climatically moving N/S over huge distances, as required. I am very confident a cluster analysis would exactly demonstrate what I am talking about.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-13271461868830492372012-07-20T15:41:11.867+03:002012-07-20T15:41:11.867+03:00Interesting. I wonder if there is a Slavic mark in...Interesting. I wonder if there is a Slavic mark in the Greeks (or even Turks) of Bithynia, since Byzantines settled Slavs there.<br /><br />So all the Greek mainland samples are from northern Greece? Do we know from which areas specifically?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07831394520806572647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-91463958490846459442012-07-20T13:51:46.937+03:002012-07-20T13:51:46.937+03:00Not really my job to the literature survey for you...Not really my job to the literature survey for you. Your question is also off-topic. But, anyway:<br /><br />"Haplogroup J2a-M410 is confined to upper caste Dravidian and Indo-European speakers, with little occurrence in the middle and lower castes."<br /><br />http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/11/new-paper-on-indian-y-chromosome.html<br /><br />"The frequency of this haplogroup is highest (23.5%) among the upper-ranked caste Brahmin and is lower (17.1%) among the middle-ranked caste Rajput. It is known that after the entry of the Aryan speakers into India, the Brahmins were the torchbearers and promoters of Aryan rituals (Karve 1961)."<br /><br />http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/11/more-on-r1a1-age-and-haplogroup-j2-in.htmlDienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-21702079159335582002012-07-20T13:28:54.876+03:002012-07-20T13:28:54.876+03:00(I couldn't post the reply on the Iranian pape...(I couldn't post the reply on the Iranian paper post after trying 100+ times!!! So please give your answer here or post the reply there and check the reply settings.)<br />Dienekes, Please give a link which gives data of J2s presence in Indo-arya uppercastes, as far as i know major brahmin groups don't have it which is a big hole to connect it with "I.E. Intrusion" and its denser in S India rather than N India.<br />About components again as i'm saying for eons the age is the real deal not the proportion! to connect them with any practical data or even theories.<br />Good times.Nirjhar007https://www.blogger.com/profile/12880827026479135118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-1503345489450916112012-07-20T13:16:54.182+03:002012-07-20T13:16:54.182+03:00The problem with I is that it's so darn limite...The problem with I is that it's so darn limited to Europe. It's low even in Anatolia, and practically non-existent in most of the Caucasus. The Balkan type of I is also very low in Sicily and S Italy.<br /><br />This opens to possible ideas:<br /><br />1. It did exist in early Greeks but was limited to mountain Greek people from NW Greece that did not participate in city-state culture and did not found colonies.<br /><br />2. It was absorbed by Greeks from their northern Balkan neighbors during antiquity or medieval period<br /><br />Hopefully the BEAN and the Pinhasi project will throw some light onto the ancient Y chromosome gene pool in our part of the world.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-41110789140837898402012-07-20T12:52:32.011+03:002012-07-20T12:52:32.011+03:00eurologist, what makes you think I2a1b1a was Germa...eurologist, what makes you think I2a1b1a was Germanic when it is not found at appreciable levels in any Germanic-speaking population?aspromavrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05416539355662136692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-42572521119789715222012-07-20T07:39:06.593+03:002012-07-20T07:39:06.593+03:00how do we know that the North_European excess is n...<i>how do we know that the North_European excess is not a Mesolithic remnant closely connected with haplogroup I in the Balkans</i><br /><br />aspromavro,<br /><br />Much of Northern Europe has significant diversity of various I subclades - the Northern Balkans not, at all. It is much more likely that these are remnant signatures from the East Germanic populations between the Oder and Vistula river, which are historically known to have expanded all the way to the Ukraine, and likely mixed with Slavic peoples and joined in the "Slavic" expansion. In particular, the I2a1b1a distribution conforms well to this expectation and a very recent founder effect.<br /><br />Other I haplogroups are more specific to certain Eastern European regions and may be of older origin or may have connections Medieval Viking trade or German settlements there over the past 500 years (i2a2a?).eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-69637897742988330102012-07-20T02:46:04.885+03:002012-07-20T02:46:04.885+03:00@Mr. Guy,
See p. 40 ff
http://www.arts.yorku.ca/...@Mr. Guy,<br /><br />See p. 40 ff<br /><br />http://www.arts.yorku.ca/hist/tgallant/documents/charanis.pdf<br /><br />The genetic data is fairly clear about the existence of Slavonic influence in the modern mainland Greek population. The current study only confirms this by being able to date the admixture event, in agreement with the historical sources.<br /><br /><i>Albanian-speaking Greeks</i><br /><br />There are no Albanian-speaking Greeks, or Slavic-speaking Greeks, or Vlach-speaking Greeks. Of course, it's understandable that some people are expansive in their use of the term "Greek", but I'm not one of them.<br /><br />The fact that some Christian Albanians, Slavs, and Vlachs assimilated into the Greek nation and developed a Greek ethnic identity is of course obvious, and their affirmation of this identity has been mostly reciprocated by the Greeks. Today, through language education, social intercourse, and intermarriage, the old distinctions have all but disappeared. But, it serves no purpose to imagine that modern mainland Greeks all share the exact same genetic origin, and some of them just happened to speak a different language.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.com