tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post8710935291203824039..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: On Tocharian originsDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-39902917195925042852016-07-29T14:21:51.694+03:002016-07-29T14:21:51.694+03:00Lars wrote a lot of wrong things...
börü (wolf) i...<b>Lars</b> wrote a lot of wrong things...<br /><br /><b>börü</b> (wolf) is not Iranic, it is Turkic, came from Old Turkic < <b>boru</b> means (grey), it is today > <b>boz</b> (zetaism)<br /><br /><b>tengri</b> is Turkic too, not Yenissean. In Yenissean languages <b>tojga</b> means (high) not "tenger". In Yenissean languages there are <b>ēs</b> word, means (sky 2. "God" 3. heaven 4. weather) If Turks borrow "God" word from them, they would loan "ēs"...<br /><br />Tengiri < came from old Turkic <b>ten</b>- means (go to sky, go up). In old Turkic <b>tengek</b> means (air), <b>tengir</b>- means (make something go to sky, arrow, bird etc.) In Old Turkic <b>Tengiri</b> means (sky 2. God 3. heaven).<br /><br /><b>Kagan/kan</b>, <b>iğne</b> and <b>kaşık</b> are Turkic too, not Yenissean. In Yenissean languages <b>qân</b> means (king) < loan from Turkic. In Yenissean <b>qoˀn</b> means (needle), and <b>qɯ̄kt</b> means (spoon).<br /><br /><b>Kam</b> means (shaman) is Turkic too, not Iranic etc.Bilig Bétig https://www.blogger.com/profile/02155447041307679733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-41170237865538214272016-04-15T17:47:38.007+03:002016-04-15T17:47:38.007+03:00Hello,
I don't think that Tocharians are so f...Hello,<br /><br />I don't think that Tocharians are so forgotten and they have descendants even today(partially of course) in Bulgaria. It is a long story but probably you could be interested to read this: http://dulo.myfreesites.net/<br /><br /><br /> pavelstaikovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03309089562790234441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-44914512790971484382016-04-15T17:45:32.722+03:002016-04-15T17:45:32.722+03:00proto Indo-Europeans were Anatolian origin.
http:/...proto Indo-Europeans were Anatolian origin.<br />http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b0e_1345918276<br />http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3385337/Europe-s-farmers-came-Turkey-DNA-Anatolian-skeletons-farming-spread-region-8-000-years-ago.htmlAdsızhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14776503628257015118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-72977977475060782032016-01-26T14:07:58.609+02:002016-01-26T14:07:58.609+02:00Dienekes,
I believe the Henning reference should b...Dienekes,<br />I believe the Henning reference should be to WB Henning in GL Ulmen Society and History: Essays in honour of KA Wittfogel (The Hague:1978) and not to WN Henning.<br />Ned RammNedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11587106110216098897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-55397349715558654842015-09-26T18:57:48.376+03:002015-09-26T18:57:48.376+03:00M343 (R1b*) is not present in any populations in t...M343 (R1b*) is not present in any populations in the region, except Persian ethnic group of Iran at 4.3%, and given the generally high diversity in the area, it's pretty clear that one branch of IE is sourced near NW Iran. The Eastern R1a branch, is clearly sourced in the East of Iran (Underhill et al, 2014, R1a study), and is what accounts for the relatively close relationship between Eastern European languages and Indo-Iranian. These R1a groups, were Iranian derived populations who migrated into Central Asia (Scythians, Saka, Sarmatians, Sogdians). blogmasterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11834163614642737338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-40767253861408664392015-09-26T17:01:12.714+03:002015-09-26T17:01:12.714+03:00M343 (R1b*) is not present in any populations in t...M343 (R1b*) is not present in any populations in the region, except Persian ethnic group of Iran at 4.3%, and given the generally high diversity in the area, it's pretty clear that one branch of IE is sourced near NW Iran. The Eastern R1a branch, is clearly sourced in the East of Iran (Underhill et al, 2014, R1a study), and is what accounts for the relatively close relationship between Eastern European languages and Indo-Iranian. These R1a groups, were Iranian derived populations who migrated into Central Asia (Scythians, Saka, Sarmatians, Sogdians). blogmasterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11834163614642737338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-70512001912371568832015-06-07T23:21:58.701+03:002015-06-07T23:21:58.701+03:00You must consider also the Khotanese people, which...You must consider also the Khotanese people, which the scholars say are "Saka" and indian immigrants bringing buddhism and prakrits.Lucianohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08474391279730282701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-11664256496327888072014-06-19T02:12:35.236+03:002014-06-19T02:12:35.236+03:00Not that I discount the Afanasyevo origin entirely...Not that I discount the Afanasyevo origin entirely, but I do think there is indeed a west-to-east movement and that the Bronze Age Tarim folk had ties to the BMAC which was also very much agricultural. Even early Indian texts make mention of various northern tribes some of whom had alliances with the Vedic Aryans and a couple had names like Tushara or Tukhara. Both cereal and the pig were among their produce.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09266802451890276883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-46585688654426021062014-06-19T02:03:36.468+03:002014-06-19T02:03:36.468+03:00This topic is interesting yet the answers may prov...This topic is interesting yet the answers may prove difficult considering that Central Asia was literally the crossroads of Eurasia. The heterogeneity of populations particularly those from early historical times especially due to admixture is expected and no surprise. But judging from the archaeological clues, I am wondering if there are any ties the Bronze Age Tarim people had with the BMAC culture which was very much agricultural or more immediately the ancient Swat Culture. I should also point out that ancient Indian texts are very much handy since they do mention various northern tribes some of whom had alliances with Vedic tribes. Tribes with names like Tushara or Tukhara were among them and cereals and pigs were among their produce. I am not counting out the Afanasyevo culture entirely, however a direct west-to-east movement seems just as likely.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09266802451890276883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-46682182814591683602013-11-25T19:33:47.630+02:002013-11-25T19:33:47.630+02:00I want to tell some thing about Tocharian.In india...I want to tell some thing about Tocharian.In india 2000 years back some some people came to Tamilnadu and ruled the country in the name of Pandian.Their sur names are like Hittie bommu and names ends with khan like Pachakhan,Lachakhan,kechilar and more than 30 names all related to tocharistan.Further details pl mail me to boopathymm@gmail.com.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06415948973541653752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-15087173935184828992011-09-21T08:48:19.560+03:002011-09-21T08:48:19.560+03:00Wagg
"The Loulan beauty (about 1,800 BCE) - (...Wagg<br />"The Loulan beauty (about 1,800 BCE) - (snip) - had a basket of wheat"<br /><br />Dienekes<br />"You are missing the point. The steppe pastoralists didn't have pigs or cereals (if the evidence Mallory refers to is right). So, how come Tocharian has words for cereals and pigs?"<br /><br />This is more of a random thought i had while reading rather than an argument but...<br /><br />what are the main blocks for human tribal migration?<br /><br />1) Impassable terrain<br />2) Other tribes<br /><br />So what would happen if some impassable (for flocks of sheep) terrain suddenly (i.e over decades) became passable (for flocks of sheep)?<br /><br />For a short window of time there are no other tribes (or none except low-density hunter-gatherers) in the way and you have a clear road stretching for thousands of miles east-west.<br /><br />So i'm thinking there may have been a brief window as the ice withdrew and *before* there were steppe peoples when mixed agriculturalists / pastoralists living on the edge could have moved onto the steppe and travelled east-west with their flocks with no obstacles like it was a motorway.<br /><br />(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_drive Describes an Australian cattle drive of 3,000 miles that took three years.)<br /><br />So a journey by agriculturalists from the west to the Tarim basin that took say 4-5 years who then settled down to be agriculturalists again while the open steppe road behind them gradually sealed up with tribes of people who would over time become steppe pastoralists would answer some of the objections at least.<br /><br />For a brief time a Tocharian window could have been like a temporary land-bridge.<br /><br />A bit far-fetched maybe but an interesting thought.Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-70663851430803409402011-06-07T09:35:15.038+03:002011-06-07T09:35:15.038+03:00@ German Dziebel :
Indeed.
Besides, The presenc...@ German Dziebel : <br /><br />Indeed. <br />Besides, The presence of cereals such as wheat, barley and millet is attested in Srednij stog sites (a culture ancestral to Yamnaya. The Afanasevo population would be derived from final Srednij stog/beginning of Yamnaya peoples). <br /><br />I think, there are plenty of evidences that suggest that the Tocharians were originally derived from Afanasevo (even linguistical hints as some old east Asian input related to proto-turkic/proto-tungusic and the such are found in Tocharian languages apparently). <br /><br />Even the fact that the earliest partly west eurasian populations' mummies and archaeological remains are first found in the EAST of the Xinjiang and the GANSU support the fact that they didn't arrive directly from the west but that they actually came from the north (i.e. south Siberia).Waggghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07290153600827942469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-43482088300638456102011-05-24T01:44:39.987+03:002011-05-24T01:44:39.987+03:00Mallory and Mair's book, "The Tarim Mummi...<i>Mallory and Mair's book, "The Tarim Mummies" or something like that.</i><br /><br />Written before the Hemphill article.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-70587460872681928682011-05-24T01:33:36.515+03:002011-05-24T01:33:36.515+03:00"Not sure where you get that"
Mallory a..."Not sure where you get that"<br /><br />Mallory and Mair's book, "The Tarim Mummies" or something like that.Andrew Oh-Willekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537151821869153861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-43143994816209321442011-05-23T03:53:09.397+03:002011-05-23T03:53:09.397+03:00"ARFAIK know there is no evidence that the te..."ARFAIK know there is no evidence that the term for pig (suwo IIRC) was originally designating the DOMESTICATED pig."<br /><br />I checked around and it is indeed unclear whether IE *sus referred to a wild or domesticated pig. We can be certain, however, that IE *porko- 'young pig' referred to the domesticated variety. It wouldn't make sense to have a special term for an animal offspring if the animal wasn't bred by humans. And Tocharian lacks a reflex of IE *porko-. Whether Hittite had either word is unclear. For comparison, IE *(H)owi- 'sheep' is well attested in Tocharian, Anatolian and other IE languages.German Dziebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10703679732205862495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-72032141464724255592011-05-21T20:45:26.354+03:002011-05-21T20:45:26.354+03:00The göktürks borrowed she-wolf legend from yuezhi ...The göktürks borrowed she-wolf legend from yuezhi and wusuns(interestingly the names present in that legend such as böri ashina and börteshine are accepted as iranic and not tocharic)please see below<br />Ashina supposedly comes from the Saka word "asseina", which means blue(see works of Turkolog Rona-Tas)<br />The word böri too is iranic(perhaps from non attested scythians)cognates with ossetian "birae" and yaghnobi "wuri" from proto iranic "verka" wich is from proto indo-european "wlkwos"<br />Göktürks and Mongols adhered to the deities qormosta and tengri, the first is undoubtfull realted to iranian deity "ahura-mazda" the second(that lacks an altaic etymology and also lacks an altaic phonetics since altaic languages dont allow 3 consonants ina row as "ngr" in tengri and thus such words are considered loanwords+altaic lacks polysyllabic roots nor could altaic words start with "r"[in the case of teng+ri analyzis])<br />"tengri" is accepted to be a loanword from yenisseian "tenger=high"(there are many yenisseian loanwords in old turkic,mostly cultural words, such as kağan=lord, han=lord, iğne=needle, kaşık=spoon...)some linguists connect "yenisseian" tenger(very likely a loanword)with pie root "dlhong"=long with wich the indian deity "druga" is connected.<br />Words related to shamanism in turkic too have iranic origin(kam+shaman+peri...)and still modern indo-iranian kalashas are shamanist(a shamanism that bear a big ressemblence to later altaic&uralic shamanism as well as with earlier west asian shamanis)<br />please see below <br /><br />http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11947Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-12402991651720682842011-05-21T03:35:45.467+03:002011-05-21T03:35:45.467+03:00@ andrew : "Mallory has identified more physi...@ andrew : <i>"Mallory has identified more physical type similarities with the early Tarim basin peoples with the Afanasyevo peoples to the North than with the Indo-Iranians to the South, for most of the pre-Uyghurs period, and likewise greater similarities in their remaining relicts, such as clothing styles."</i> <br /><br />Yes, and IIRC, in their book, Mallory and Mair mentionned that mister Han Kangxin from the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences of Beijing also reached the conclusion that the Tarim basin mummies' skulls were closer to the Afanasevo and Andronovo skulls than to any other ancient population.Waggghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07290153600827942469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-6282983981227439252011-05-21T03:16:58.894+03:002011-05-21T03:16:58.894+03:00"The Gutians might have been a Indo European ...<i>"The Gutians might have been a Indo European Group there language is often called Torchi and brought up with Tocharians." - Very interesting.</i><br /><br />No Xinjiang people were actually called Tocharian. "Tokharoi" was wrongfully used this way at first and this mistake remained in use since then. <br /><br />And "often" = one author, IIRC. <br /><br /><i>"First, Mallory mentions multiple cereals"</i> <br /><br />The article I mentionned says cereal_S_.<br /><br /><i>"the Beauty of Loulan lived in Loulan, and not the steppes."</i><br /><br />I didn't mention the steppes I talked of the R1a1a Xiaohe people living in XINJIANG in the exact same time period. <br /><br />The article mentionned the earliest tracks of this population in eastern Tarim basin/Gansu roughly at 2,135 BC - 1,700 BC while the tested (in Chunxiang Li et al 2010) R1a1a Xiaohe people (also deep in Xinjiang) was about 2,000 BC - 1,500 BC IIRC. Noone can deny that the chronology fits exactly. <br /><br />The fact that this partly west Eurasian peoples were found in the east part of Xinjiang (and apparently north-west Gansu) could be explained by the fact they didn't come directly from the west but actually from the north (south Siberia).Waggghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07290153600827942469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-396991025868227272011-05-20T20:53:08.858+03:002011-05-20T20:53:08.858+03:00Interestingly, the "tingling" who occupy...Interestingly, the "tingling" who occupy the northeasternmost corner of the map you provided(and thus geographically are the closer to the altaic homeland)are usually accepted to be early altaic speakers(probably speaking an ancestral form of proto turko-mongolian before it's split to proto turkic and proto mongolian but after proto tunguz did split from proto altaic)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-84084026211831066672011-05-20T20:39:53.567+03:002011-05-20T20:39:53.567+03:00based on onomastics and some atetsted xiongnu word...based on onomastics and some atetsted xiongnu words it seems that they were iranic speaking.(please see the works of specialist Xavier Tremblay as well as <br />http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?p=130702<br />Wusuns and Yuezhi too(based on similar works)seem to be indo-iranian speaking<br />The first Altaic intrusion seems to be of the Göktürks of the 7 th century(interestingly the official language of göktürks was east iranic soghdians+their vizirs and statemen were soghdian and also did have an iranian alphabet+iranian god tengri/druga/tenger and adhered to indo-iranian shamanism[the word shaman is indo-iranian])however the göktürk ruling class were old turkic speaking(it's from that old Turkic that all nowadays Turkic languages-except yakut and chuvash-descend)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-26469767357250379962011-05-20T20:20:06.936+03:002011-05-20T20:20:06.936+03:00Mallory has identified more physical type similari...<i>Mallory has identified more physical type similarities with the early Tarim basin peoples with the Afanasyevo peoples to the North than with the Indo-Iranians to the South, for most of the pre-Uyghurs period, and likewise greater similarities in their remaining relicts, such as clothing styles.</i><br /><br />Not sure where you get that, in the article he wrote with Hemphill they seem to suggest that the earliest population had no close associations with the steppe.<br /><br />Actually, that broad-faced and mesorrhine population may very well mask a little Mongoloid admixture, just as there is a little Mongoloid admixture in the broad-faced Afanasevo groups.<br /><br /><i>It also isn't accurate to classify Afanasyevo is straight pastoralist nomads. They did farm. </i><br /><br />Ok, so Mallory is pulling our leg when he says that the cereals vocabulary is not consistent with a steppe origin until very late?<br /><br /><i>The most important things that linguistics tell us about Tocharian are that it is a very basal split from other IE languages and that it is not Indo-Iranian. Even if you try to make a theory of Tocharian coming from people who spoke an Indo-Iranian language in the mid-1st millenium CE and then experienced language shift, the basal character of Tocharian means that a split from those people had to be at a great time depth.</i><br /><br />A great time depth is no problem, and in no ways implies a great spatial separation. You get all sorts of languages with great time depth of separation living right next to each other all the time, try the Caucasus or the Aegean.<br /><br />So, I don't see any problem with the idea that Tocharian, or its ancestral language, split off from Anatolian early, but did not move all the way to the Tarim early.<br /><br /><i>To reject a continuity matching "pots and hats" cultural continuity from Afanasyevo to early Tarim Basin to attested Tocharian</i><br /><br />Did you even watch Mallory's talk? He says that pretty much the only link between the two is the fact that the former enclosed their cemetaries with stones, the latter with wooden poles.<br /><br /><i>One doesn't have to encounter something very often to keep a word for it in your vocabulary</i><br /><br />I strongly disagree. Not having grown up in a village or agricultural setting I lack most of the terms that my parents' generation possessed, who, in turn, lack many of the terms that older generations did. This is especially salient for my Pontic ancestors who had all sorts of foods/recipes using specific Black Sea flora that are not found in the Aegean. I see absolutely no reason why a memory of multiple cereals would be preserved by people who did not use them for many centuries as they moved across the steppe.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-28773771428774296222011-05-20T19:59:10.531+03:002011-05-20T19:59:10.531+03:00Mallory has identified more physical type similari...Mallory has identified more physical type similarities with the early Tarim basin peoples with the Afanasyevo peoples to the North than with the Indo-Iranians to the South, for most of the pre-Uyghurs period, and likewise greater similarities in their remaining relicts, such as clothing styles.<br /><br />It also isn't accurate to classify Afanasyevo is straight pastoralist nomads. They did farm. <br /><br />The more difficult question is not where the Tarim basin people got farming in general from, but where they got irrigated terrace farming from (something not widely practiced by any of their close geographic neighbors closer the BMAC and only roughly similar to BMAC methods).<br /><br />The assumption of linguistic continuity in the presence of cultural continuity, and the assumption that linguistic shift will generally be accompanied by other cultural discontinuities as well as a pretty reasonable default assumption. Moreover, it is particularly reasonable given the IE phylogeny of Tocharian. The most important things that linguistics tell us about Tocharian are that it is a very basal split from other IE languages and that it is not Indo-Iranian. Even if you try to make a theory of Tocharian coming from people who spoke an Indo-Iranian language in the mid-1st millenium CE and then experienced language shift, the basal character of Tocharian means that a split from those people had to be at a great time depth.<br /><br />To reject a continuity matching "pots and hats" cultural continuity from Afanasyevo to early Tarim Basin to attested Tocharian, one has to assume not just that language change happened without visible cultural traces of any kind in a place where the historical record is well preserved by optimal climatic conditions, but also that the other possible sources for Tocharian were not speakers of languages in the Indo-Iranian language family, despite the fact that neighboring IE language speakers were speaking Indo-Iranian languages at the earliest dates we can discern from historical records and show cultural continuities with each other.<br /><br />Re: Pigs. We think we know that PIE had a word for pigs. Pigs were also a core part of the East Asian neolithic from the very beginning there. <br /><br />One doesn't have to encounter something very often to keep a word for it in your vocabulary (e.g. most native speakers of English are familiar with the word "sloth" in its sense as a kind of animal despite encountering the word only infrequently and never seeing them; and words for things that are part of legends or traditions, as pigs might have been, persist even longer - most people know the words frankensense and myhrr and leprecaun and wyrvn and griffin despite never having ever seen any of them in real life). The notion that the IE word for pig could have survived from the era when pre-Tocharians last encountered a pig in daily life to the era when they next encountered a pig from East Asian merchants or soldiers is not a particularly credulity stretching concept.Andrew Oh-Willekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537151821869153861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-57819302529454026812011-05-20T16:37:47.011+03:002011-05-20T16:37:47.011+03:00"Tocharians are descended from a group of far..."Tocharians are descended from a group of farmers that moved east of the PIE homeland and settled on the Zagros and beyond, south of the Caspian sea."<br /><br />It's possible, of course. One of the things that contradict it is the fact that Tocharian shares none of characteristic Anatolian kinship terms (e.g., atta father, anna mother, neka sister, tideimi son, nani brother). In fact, Tocharian kinship vocabulary is strictly European (pacer father, macer mother, tkacer daughter, ser sister, soy son, pracar brother). This suggests that Tocharian split off (early!) the main body of IE languages, those that are not attested in Anatolia. Hence, it's likely that Tocharian took a northern route east, not a southern one.<br /><br />The aberrant Anatolian kinship term set does contain a clear archaism: atta father is confirmed by Germanic (Goth atta) and Slavic (*otici). But in view of Luw duuttari, Lyk cbatra 'daughter', which is a direct continuation of the standard IE etymon for daughter, Anatolian does show traces of the European kinship term set. This means that the unique features of the Anatolian set are innovations, not attested in the more archaic Tocharian.<br /><br />The modified Swadesh list that's used uncritically by Bayesian practitioners is a random hotchpotch of words deemed "universal concepts" without much rationale behind it. The parts of vocabulary that are characterized by systemic integration (e.g., kinship terms, numerals, etc.) are not used but they keep posing problems for the Anatolian homeland theory.German Dziebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10703679732205862495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-53404935375314647452011-05-20T16:13:00.612+03:002011-05-20T16:13:00.612+03:00After all, once again, the Loulan beauty (1,800 BC...<i>After all, once again, the Loulan beauty (1,800 BCE),contemporary of the R1a1a Xiaohe in Xinjiang but living easter, had a basket of wheat! <br /></i><br /><br />First, Mallory mentions multiple cereals (6 if I remember his slides correctly).<br /><br />Second, and most important, the Beauty of Loulan lived in Loulan, and not the steppes. <br /><br /><i>The Gutians might have been a Indo European Group there language is often called Torchi and brought up with Tocharians.</i><br /><br />Very interesting.<br /><br /><i>Besides, isn't R1a1a the most frequent y-dna "west eurasian" haplogroup in north-western Gansu nowadays? </i><br /><br />There is E, J2a, R1a, R1b, and R2 in Han from Gansu todayDienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-33887604766923710482011-05-20T15:51:48.825+03:002011-05-20T15:51:48.825+03:00This is also interesting.
in http://www.sciencea...This is also interesting. <br /><br />in http://www.sciencealert.com.au/news/20090312-20338.html : <br /><br /><i>"Dating, using ANSTO’s precision techniques, was used to identify the age of seeds, slag, copper ore and charcoal at two sites. The findings show the material is up to 3700 years old, but that smelting was still being carried out as recently as 1300 years ago."</i><br /><br /><i>"The research indicates bronze production may have begun as early as 2135 BC and that the modern mine location - Baishantang at Dingxin - was possibly the historical source of copper ore for manufacturing."</i><br /><br /><i>" “The aim of the study was to determine possible sources of ore and evidence of bronze production through analysis of artefacts (with copper and arsenic content) including analysing samples of slag and copper ore from two archaeological sites known as Ganggangwa and Huoshiliang in northwestern Gansu Province,“ he said."</i><br /><br /><i>"The team discovered substantial areas of woody vegetation around the sites which is now dominated by sand dunes. The Bronze Age people of the <b>Gansu</b> area were farmers who planted cereals such as wheat and practiced animal husbandry. Horse and sheep bones are common. It is believed they may have abandoned the region when wood was exhausted and desertification took over."</i> <br /><br />I notice that sheeps and horses are also among the most typical Afanasevo domesticated animals (but there were some bovine cattle too). <br /><br />Besides, isn't R1a1a the most frequent y-dna "west eurasian" haplogroup in north-western Gansu nowadays? <br /><br />This Loulan beauty basket of wheat is important, I think. It at least shows that the source of Tocharian could be there for a very ancient time (it works with the fact that Tocharian is supposed to be one of the oldest branch of IE). <br />The Loulan beauty was apparently part of this west eurasian people living in Xinjiang as soon as early bronze age and that apparently were R1a1a on the male side (with also some west eurasian mtDNA lineages, that Chunxiang Li considered as coming from south Siberia).Waggghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07290153600827942469noreply@blogger.com