tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post8495351453449035360..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Near Eastern origin of European Neolithic farmersDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-49994203581228716862015-03-20T10:22:29.656+02:002015-03-20T10:22:29.656+02:00@aargiedude old comment I know, but there's a ...@aargiedude old comment I know, but there's a couple scenarios.<br /><br />First, I do think it's possible that R1b in ancient genes somehow can decay to appear as G. Just look at the 'nonpaternal' claims for various figures that are (oddly) G which you don't really expect, and have children who are r1b.<br /><br />But mainly I think you have sample issues when you look in neolithic sites in fancy graves and you are not getting a truly random sample. If you could test truly randomly things might be completely different.<br /><br />Also, I assume that things would be much less homogenous back then, and groups would be very separate from village to village. Over time though they would merge together and indeed negative selection against these 'funny' clades could easily come into play. So some great family starts a new colony, for a while these clades expand then eventually more and more HG become part of the society and overwhelm this originating branch.<br /><br />Also LBK seems to be an intrusive element that has a backtrail to the SE and could have come from far away, and seems to have been wiped out. They were also cannibals, so I'm just as glad they did not seem to contribute much to the DNA of europe.Fiend of 9 worldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17712083368615685458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-57421515991201628112010-11-23T15:05:52.288+02:002010-11-23T15:05:52.288+02:00I have not sent you any spam, only an issue about ...<i>I have not sent you any spam, only an issue about N1a mtDNA in Ethiopians that you have not published. <br /></i><br /><br />Sending the same thing DOZENS of times IS SPAM<br /><br />http://tinypic.com/r/2i081hw/7Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-86744463185238684332010-11-23T06:19:45.932+02:002010-11-23T06:19:45.932+02:00My comment that I attempt to send to you is:
From...My comment that I attempt to send to you is:<br />From:"Ethiopian Mitochondrial DNA Heritage: Tracking Gene Flow Across and Around the Gate of Tears" - Red Sea or Gulf of Aden-<br />Am. J. Hum. Genet. 75:752–770, 2004Toomas Kivisild, et al<br />“In this respect, Ethiopians differ explicitly from most other sub-Saharan African populations studied thus far.Within Ethiopia, the frequency of "N" lineages is significantly higher (P > .05) in samples that originate from its northern territory (48%), which was the center of the Aksum kingdom, than among other Ethiopians, mostly originating from the south-central part of the country (27%). At the same time, there was no significant difference in the proportions of haplogroup "N" between the Semitic and Cushitic linguistic groups in our sample—for example,between Amharas and Oromos.” This includes Ethiopian Jews.<br />“On the other hand, significant differences in the proportions of derived lineages of haplogroup N between northeastern and south-central samples from Ethiopia are consistent with the proximity of the Tigrinya region (Aksum) and Eritrea to the coast of the Red Sea, the latter having mediated gene flow with Egypt and southern Arabia—perhaps, in particular,with<br />the rise of Semitic cultural influence in the region Hence, Ethiopians may have been recipients of the southern Arabian J1-M267 chromosomes but have not been efficient donors of the E3b1-M78 chromosomes to southern Arabia -low or absent% there-, although East Africans may have carried the latter to Egypt and, farther, to Europe via the Levantine corridor.”<br />“HVS-I mtDNA haplotype 16126-16305T-16362 that occurs(12.5%)in Ethiopian Jews (Thomas et al. 2002). Their elevated frequency<br />and uniform presence among major language groups in Ethiopia (table 1) suggests that these derived<br />lineages may represent a relatively old introgression of<br />lineages to the Ethiopian mtDNA pool from the Near East.”<br />Note also that now Ashkenazim have 24% of E3b1, more than Sephardim 19%-20%.<br />“East African Y chromosomes in haplogroup E3b1-M78 which is abundant (38% -17%), and may have<br />originated in Ethiopia (Cruciani et al. 2004; Luis et al. 2004). It is interesting that, like E3b1-M78,these mtDNA haplogroups are infrequent or absent in our Yemeni sample -South Arabia-(table 1). Note that the identified time window is close to the proposed division of the Semitic and Cushitic branches of Afro-Asiatic languages (Militarev 2003) and corresponds broadly to the beginning of deep environmental changes in the deserts of the Sahara and the Arabian Peninsula, when those regions recovered from their widest span and most extreme aridity during the Last Glacial Maximum period.”<br />"A high proportion of Ethiopian lineages "N1a", significantly more abundant in the northeast of that country -48%-trace their western Eurasian origin in haplogroup N through assorted gene flow at different times and involving different source populations"-Egypt-N.E.etc-.horaciohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08177107320272273468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-27397433608683403872010-11-23T04:10:23.013+02:002010-11-23T04:10:23.013+02:00I have not sent you any spam, only an issue about ...I have not sent you any spam, only an issue about N1a mtDNA in Ethiopians that you have not published. <br />Dr. H.H.O.C.horaciohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08177107320272273468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-13967537190219039892010-11-23T03:14:18.858+02:002010-11-23T03:14:18.858+02:00you are insulting me violated International and hu...<i>you are insulting me violated International and human laws</i><br /><br />No, you are wasting my time with dozens of repetitive posts like this:<br /><br />http://tinypic.com/r/2i081hw/7Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-38967543793189182712010-11-23T01:34:01.318+02:002010-11-23T01:34:01.318+02:00you are insulting me violated International and h...you are insulting me violated International and human lawshoraciohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08177107320272273468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-90818505188597487982010-11-22T20:36:19.828+02:002010-11-22T20:36:19.828+02:00horacioh you are banned from the blog for your con...horacioh you are banned from the blog for your constant comment spamming.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-30767876631934690752010-11-16T10:33:23.423+02:002010-11-16T10:33:23.423+02:00Fanty,
"Thats why I think the "northern...Fanty,<br /><br />"Thats why I think the "northern European" connection must be older than that of medieval migrations".<br /><br />I agree - there likely has been a ~stable N/S gradient from shortly after the Younger Dryas (but originally going back before than). Sometimes a few people migrate this way or the other, sometimes responding to changing climate, but that does not change the overall picture. For example, when cattle-farmers introduced IE/Italic to Italy, they did not come from Scandinavia. They came from the Alps and immediate surroundings, likely the Eastern portion - a region that perhaps only had 50% blue-eyed, light-haired people to start with (because of the pre-existing gradient). Mix that with the darker indigenous non-IE population, add a bit of counter-selection against these traits, and what are you left with? Pretty much the same you started with. <br /><br />"But what needs to be explained is why the Northern aDNA cluster has so different Y-DNA".<br /><br />I agree - but that may not be that hard. As I said before: y-DNA is a horrible indicator of autosomal DNA. After ten generations (~200 to ~250 years), the original y-donor's (father's) autosomal contribution is 0.1%!eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-47371066710874443672010-11-16T00:36:10.094+02:002010-11-16T00:36:10.094+02:00From;Am. J. Hum.
Genet. 2000, Richards M,et al: “W...From;Am. J. Hum.<br />Genet. 2000, Richards M,et al: “We conclude that (i) there has been substantial back-migration into the Near East, (ii) the majority of extant mtDNA lineages entered Europe in several waves during the Upper Palaeolithic, (iii) there was a founder effect or bottleneck associated with the LGM, 20,000 years ago, from which derives the largest fraction of surviving lineages, and (iv) the immigrant Neolithic component is likely to comprise less than one-quarter of the mtDNA pool of modern Europeans.<br />From;-2001- Nicole Maca-Meyer, BMC Genetics 2001<br />“The second cluster groups minor haplogroups<br />W, I and N1b -in Neolithic period- , the three are present although in<br />low frequencies in Europe, Near East and Caucasus but<br />only I and N1b have been also detected in Egypt and Arabia.”<br /><br />Other: From Behar et al 2006<br />"High incidence of Hg N1b in Ashkenazi Jews. Hg N1b<br />is virtually absent in Europeans (0,20% or minor) but appears at frequencies<br />Of 3% or higher in those from Levant, Arabia, and<br />Egypt (Richards et al. 2003; Kivisild et al. 2004; unpublished<br />results of Tartu and Haifa groups).<br />…In total, we have identified four Ashkenazi founding<br />lineages, three within Hg K and one in Hg N1b, deriving<br />from only four ancestral women and accounting for fully<br />40% of the mtDNAs of the current Ashkenazi population<br />(8,000,000 people). The second<br />most common lineage is within Hg N1b and corresponds<br />to an additional or more 800,000 people.We compared<br />the pattern of lineage distribution seen in Ashkenazi Jews<br />with a global database of 30,000 mtDNAs, 13,359 of<br />which are from populations in which Hg K and N1b<br />are present (table 6), and we could not detect anything<br />similar… For example in European Caucasian<br />Populations were determined. The frequency of 18 haplotypes was found to account for only<br />20.8% as whole of the European Caucasian mtDNAs—a very significant<br />difference compared with the Ashkenazi Jews,<br />for which four complete sequence haplotypes comprise<br />42% of the mtDNAs…"<br /><br />Other: from mine article April 2001 and Oct. 2010 This 42% mtDNA -include "N1" “G nucleotide variant of M.E. and E.A.” - individuals carrying these mitochondrial markers- as well from a fifth to seven mothers that includes the "L1, l2" and "M1" haplogroup also with origin from the Wide or extending Middle East that includes Abyssinian region – who represents 50 % mtDNA of the nowadays Ashkenazi community. <br />See too: Laurie J. Ozelius et al 2006. "The leucine-rich repeat kinase 2 (LRRK2) G2019S mutation is the most common genetic determinant of Parkinson disease (PD) in Ashkenazi Jews and North African Arabs with PD."<br />It has been seen, in this paper like Neolithic Nb1 at High frequencies in LKB culture also is present striking in Ashkenazim today at high rates (10 at 12%) perhaps for bottle neck effect.<br />If the Ashkenazim with only 1200 years ancient, likely born in massive<br />Coming from Alexandria Egypt –first in number- and the Levant –second<br />in number and before in times towards II century AE -or before yet- to Central Italy in VII century AE – when Muslim invaders- and after the North and the East of Europe, they possess actually –more in ancient times- maternal mitochondrial markers mtDNA L1,L2 (4%) from Abyssinia, and the sibling N1b (10-12%) and M1(2%)-Behar el al 2006, Also Ovadia et al 2010- linked with L3 from Abyssinia – Ethiopia and Eritrea also Somalia- and Near East.<br />Remember that buried and graves in Jewish graveyards and catacombs of Tuscan, and<br />Alsace as too Rhineland cities take a lot of Egyptian ornaments and<br />display figures from these, as well as Y and mtDNA markers - . <br />It likely proves the existence of Abyssinian people in ancient Israel or, also it proves the fact that the former Israelite people had Abyssinian<br />numerous masculine markers -E3b, 4S etc., including partially like NE markers- as well enough known, as<br />and feminine markers like L1L2 etc., showing a feedback between<br />people into Ethiopia and Israel in ancient times.horaciohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08177107320272273468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-8502150294635389542010-11-13T23:39:59.207+02:002010-11-13T23:39:59.207+02:00"The estimation you're talking of is betw..."The estimation you're talking of is between 10,000 and 6,000 years IIRC and you can bet the content of your bank account that it's older than that (same for blondness and white skin, I'm pretty convinced it's not as "recent" as it's been claimed recently)."<br /><br />Yes.<br /><br />But those guys use 30 years generations for the top numbers (10.000).<br /><br />Its know that Germanic peoples of the 1th century AD, merried at 12, became adult warriors at 15 and DIED at 30. So I tend to think that people on tribal level have generations of maybe 20 years, not 30. (something that would make a lot of things even younger)<br /><br />Also the lower number 6.000 fits wonderfully with other TMRCAs.<br /><br />Like European R1a1a: 6.000-8.000 (MRCA, not the haplogroup)<br /><br />Scandinavian I1: 4.000-6.000 (The MRCA, not the haplogroup itself)<br /><br />And thats NOT the lowest numbers.<br />The lowest estaminates that float around use ages HALF of that.<br /><br />On the other hand is MCRA calculation based on say, haplotypes, surely crap.<br />I (R1a1a*) get TMRCAs of 6.000 years with Brahmins (at 25 years generation lengh). ;)Fantyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07969348276219179258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-73649529860608184312010-11-13T21:34:34.974+02:002010-11-13T21:34:34.974+02:00Pconroy writes: “I think you're confusing mtDN...Pconroy writes: “I think you're confusing mtDNA and Y-DNA?! See here:<br />http://www.nature.com/index.html?file=/ejhg/journal/v11/n7/abs/5200992a.html”.<br /><br />Actually the paper gives the presence of YDNA F* (whichever subclade it is) at 1,3% that isn’t a little for Europe and only a deep exam could answer if this subclade is European or from elsewhere. We are always waiting for an ancient R1b, that wasn’t in LBK. Perhaps next year we’ll have an answer from Oetzi.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-68091599572666751012010-11-13T04:05:33.193+02:002010-11-13T04:05:33.193+02:00@ Fanty : "But if its correct that the blue e...@ Fanty : <i>"But if its correct that the blue eyes mutation is only 6.000 years old"</i> <br /><br />The estimation you're talking of is between 10,000 and 6,000 years IIRC and you can bet the content of your bank account that it's older than that (same for blondness and white skin, I'm pretty convinced it's not as "recent" as it's been claimed recently).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-44961119580106564372010-11-13T01:51:50.304+02:002010-11-13T01:51:50.304+02:00Second try:
I am haunted with error messages...
If...Second try:<br />I am haunted with error messages...<br />If this is a double post, use only 1 please :)<br /><br />"The Russian nation was established by a foreign ruling class of Scandinavians."<br /><br />The same is true for a lot other places. Still, a lot of these places are not as "Northern" as say Russia.<br /><br />Lombards for example. Their "mythological" (claimed, but unproven) origin is Norway. Oldest proven settlement is northern Germany.<br /><br />For some time they established a kingdom that was more or less Switzerland combined with Austria.<br /><br />And finaly they established a kingdom that was the northern half of Italy, wich is still named by their tribal name "Lombardy".<br /><br />But the people of "Lombardy" have less than 20% blue eyes and almost as much "Northern aDNA"<br /><br />Slavs however did are "rough people with red hair and blue eyes", by the claim of the Romans that first recognised them. Thats centuries before the Swedes found "Rus".<br /><br />Tacitus used a similiar depcition of Germanic tribes, centuries earlier: "In one thing they are all the same: huge frames, red hair and blue eyes"<br /><br />And now Tacitus idea for the "Picts" (who many claim as "Celtic"):<br />He says, their huge frames, red hair and blue eyes show clearly that they must originally be of Germanic origin.<br /><br />So, we have a "before 400AD" description of Picts, Germans and Slavs as beeing "northern European" looking.<br /><br />Tehre is also a description of Gauls in the time of the Gallic war of Ceasar. Claiming Gauls as fair haired and fair eyed people.<br /><br />The ancient R1a1a mummies in northwest China are blond and blue eyed (what was known before it was known that they had R1a1a)<br /><br />Fair haired, blue eyed R1a1 "Skythian" corpses (question is, if those belonged to "original" Iranian "Skythians" or assimilated north-east Europeans).<br /><br />So, the "northern European" stereotypic looks of Fair hair and fair eyes are much older than the "Germanic invasions" (Saxons, Lombards, Goth, Franks, Suebian, Swedish Rus, Norse and Danish Vikings and so on)<br /><br />Also, would Swedish RUS explain 60-80% "Northern aDNA" in Russia?<br /><br />A few Saxons, Angeles and Vikings another 60-70% in British? What about Irish? Also 60% northern European aDNA without much known (historical) "Germanic" impact, except that even the Irish R1b has highest microsatellite diversity in Germany.<br /><br />On the other hand, Lombardy (Northern Italy), where Celts lived, where Germanic Goth and Lombards estabilished kingdoms...and wich was in a multiple Monarchy with Germany for centuries (King of the Germans, King of the Lombards, King of Burgundy and Holy Emperor of the Romans)....with as few as 20-25% "northern aDNA". Thats fewer than that of Spain and Portugal!.<br /><br />Thats why I think the "northern European" connection must be older than that of medieval migrations.<br /><br />But what needs to be explained is why the Northern aDNA cluster has so different Y-DNA.<br /><br />Countries with 70% Northern aDNA have either <br />"1/3 R1b, 1/3 R1a, 1/3 I1" or<br />"1/2 I1, 1/4 R1a, 1/4 R1b" or<br />"1/2 N, 1/2 I1" or<br />"1/2 N, 1/2 R1a"<br /><br />Thats quiet some variation for countries that are suposed to derive 70% of "all lineages, including the drifted or otherwise lost ones" (what aDNA promises to archive) from the same "Proto-Northern peoples" pool.Fantyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07969348276219179258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-42011824995372370822010-11-13T01:18:52.354+02:002010-11-13T01:18:52.354+02:00From: Hans Eiberg •Hum Genet (2008) 123:177–187
“B...From: Hans Eiberg •Hum Genet (2008) 123:177–187<br />“Blue eye color in humans may be caused by a perfectly<br />associated founder mutation in a regulatory element located<br />within the HERC2 gene inhibiting OCA2 expression.”<br />There were identified a conserved regulatory<br />element within intron 86 of the HERC2 gene that is perfectly<br />associated with the brown/blue eye color in studied<br />individuals from Denmark, Turkey and Jordan. This element<br />had an inhibitory eVect on the OCA2 promoter activity<br />in cell cultures, and the blue and the brown alleles were<br />shown to bind non-identical subsets of nuclear extracts. In<br />total, all these data strongly support a model where the blue<br />eye color in humans is caused by homozygosity of the<br />rs12913832*G allele.<br />The mutations responsible for the blue eye color most<br />likely originate from the neareast area or northwest part of<br />the Black Sea region, where the great agriculture migration<br />to the northern part of Europe took place in the Neolithic<br />periods about 6–10,000 years ago (Cavalli-Sforza et al.<br />1994).<br />The high frequency of blue-eyed individuals in the Scandinavia<br />and Baltic areas indicates a positive selection for<br />this phenotype (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994; Myant et al.<br />1997). Several theories has been suggested to explain the<br />Evolutionary selection for pigmentation traits which include<br />UV expositor causing skin cancer, vitamin D deWciency,<br />and also sexual selection has been mentioned. Natural<br />Selection as suggested here changes the area of predominant features.horaciohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08177107320272273468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-58679065779486732572010-11-12T22:27:41.225+02:002010-11-12T22:27:41.225+02:00Gioiello said:
F* has one of its huge presence on...Gioiello said:<br /><i><br />F* has one of its huge presence on the islands of Adriatic Sea close to the Croatian shore. <br /></i><br /><br />I think you're confusing mtDNA and Y-DNA?! See here:<br />http://www.nature.com/index.html?file=/ejhg/journal/v11/n7/abs/5200992a.html<br /><br />Y chromosome variation in 457 Croatian samples was studied using 16 SNPs/indel and eight STR loci. High frequency of haplogroup I in Croatian populations and the phylogeographic pattern in its background STR diversity over Europe make Adriatic coast one likely source of the recolonization of Europe following the Last Glacial Maximum. The higher frequency of I in the southern island populations is contrasted with higher frequency of group R1a chromosomes in the northern island of Krk and in the mainland. R1a frequency, while low in Greeks and Albanians, is highest in Polish, Ukrainian and Russian populations and could be a sign of the Slavic impact in the Balkan region. Haplogroups J, G and E that can be related to the spread of farming characterize the minor part (12.5%) of the Croatian paternal lineages. <b>In one of the southern island (Hvar) populations, we found a relatively high frequency (14%) of lineages belonging to P*(xM173) cluster, which is unusual for European populations. Interestingly, the same population also harbored mitochondrial haplogroup F that is virtually absent in European populations – indicating a connection with Central Asian populations, possibly the Avars.<br /></b>pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-31984598536004853572010-11-12T21:23:53.592+02:002010-11-12T21:23:53.592+02:00Perhaps the people who created the Linear Pottery ...Perhaps the people who created the Linear Pottery culture were like the Roma (except wealthier) sparsely populated exotic nomads with unusual burial practices (in a world of cremation?clusteredmapshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11784837197225241192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-78223711250760663932010-11-12T04:15:28.362+02:002010-11-12T04:15:28.362+02:00@Fanty
The British Isles and Scandinavia adopt fa...@Fanty<br /><br />The British Isles and Scandinavia adopt farming and herding later than any other populations in Europe, so if blue eyes arrived ca. 6,000 years ago, that wouldn't be inconsistent with a British Neolithic source that appears to have had a substantial demographic component. Also, from that date onwards, it appears the British Isles were in uninterrupted sea trade up and down the Atlantic Coast.<br /><br />Britain also saw a significant demographic infusion from Scandinavia ca. 1000 CE, during the Norman Conquest which also would have greatly increased the social cache of Scandinavian appearance giving its sexual selection advantage, and had prolonged back and forth military and territorial disputes with Scandinavians for hundreds of years up until then, and with Brittany which had similar experience with Scandinavians before it had an impact on Britain.<br /><br />The Russian nation was established by a foreign ruling class of Scandinavians.<br /><br />Clearly there was a major demographic transition in much of Europe in the early Neolithic. It also seems highly likely that there was a major Indo-European demographic transition that hit at various points from the early Bronze Age to the early Iron Age depending on where you look.<br /><br />It isn't clear to me whether or not there was in intermediate demographic transition between these two events (largely lost to history), or whether any other demographic change happened during the Roman era or later.Andrew Oh-Willekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537151821869153861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-41142367911249963192010-11-11T13:24:01.371+02:002010-11-11T13:24:01.371+02:00"It's new to me, which paper do you cite ..."It's new to me, which paper do you cite from? thanks!"<br /><br />I forgotabout that. sorry.<br /><br /><br />"It sure is a trend - but that doesn't make it necessarily correct. Even the Haak data from this paper are in contradiction with some published mtDNA estimates (meaning some of the estimates are now at least a factor two too young)."<br /><br />What about the age estamination for "Blue Eyes"?<br /><br />Its also at 6.000 years. (people seem to love this number)<br /><br />The estaminated origin is the Ukraine. (never actually read the study and the explanation why Ukraine)<br /><br />To my opinion, blue eyes seem to correlate to the northern European aDNA cluster.<br /><br />Countries with 70% Northern Cluster have 80% or more blue eyed people, even through its a recessive trait.<br /><br />Countries of 55-65% northern Cluster are at 50-80% blue eyed people.<br /><br />Countries at 30% northern Cluster have 20-50% blue eyed people.<br /><br />And countries of 20% northern Cluster are at 1-19% blue eyed people.<br /><br />Wich means, it seems almost as if the percentage of blue eyed people mirrores that of the northern aDNA cluster. (Wich is kind of strange, since brown eyes would dominate blue eyes). Wich again suggests the original northern Cluster people would be ALL blue eyes?! cO<br /><br />But if its correct that the blue eyes mutation is only 6.000 years old.... it would somehow mean, the whole northern cluster is only 6.000 years old.<br /><br />And it would mean, that R1b dominated terretories like the British Isles and R1a dominated terretories like Russia (two regions where more than 50% of the population has blue eyes) meet at the blue eyes MRCA, only 6.000 years ago.<br /><br />Whats with that? Is that age estamination too young? May blue eyes be more like 20.000 or 30.000 years old? ^^<br /><br />(this is not even fully off topic, since, if the age estamination is right, TMRCA of all blue eyed humans lived in the time of the LBK.Fantyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07969348276219179258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-12750522413024106892010-11-11T13:00:34.708+02:002010-11-11T13:00:34.708+02:00There's a fellow from Prague,Czech Republic wh...There's a fellow from Prague,Czech Republic who also belongs to G2a with the uncommon value DYS388=11.<br />Maybe someone can say more in respect to the Topic "Neolithic farmers". <br /><br />Heres the thread<br />http://forums.familytreedna.com/showthread.php?t=24513<br /><br />By the way I am of Palestinian decent and also belong to G2a3.Katharóshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16649693310029639154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-51927209201529371592010-11-11T06:09:37.648+02:002010-11-11T06:09:37.648+02:00"I have seen the estaminated age of R1b drop ..."I have seen the estaminated age of R1b drop from 40.000 years to 26.000 and then to 16.000 years already.<br /><br />With TMRCA estaminates already scratching at the 6.000 years (for example TMRCA of European R1a and I1)."<br /><br />It's new to me, which paper do you cite from? thanks!Mongolshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14828932166698400276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-57397217739679144232010-11-11T04:57:22.541+02:002010-11-11T04:57:22.541+02:00The recent Palanichamy et al. study
http://www.bi...The recent Palanichamy et al. study<br /><br />http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2148-10-304.pdf<br /><br />comes to the conclusion that much (if not all) of the LBK N1a is of local European origin - further strengthening the idea that the "weird" LBK makeup is largely just due to its random local Danubian origin, and then further exaggerated by rapid expansion and drift.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-46585583086255438272010-11-11T03:45:39.911+02:002010-11-11T03:45:39.911+02:00@Argiedude....
You appear to be confused by the ap...@Argiedude....<br />You appear to be confused by the apparent discontinuity between modern and ancient European populations. However ,not all ancient European populations showed evidence of discontinuity between modern populations. For , instance a particular neolithic population in <br />Grannollers Barcelona apparently showed little discontinuity to modern populations "http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2706191/?tool=pubmed". It even had a case of U4. As for Mesolithic/Paleolithic human remains I really wise someone would test the DNA (y-dna or mtdna) of pre-neolithic populations in the Iberian peninsula.clusteredmapshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11784837197225241192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-41947516108524982392010-11-11T03:28:14.859+02:002010-11-11T03:28:14.859+02:00''Arent these already questioned?''...''Arent these already questioned?''<br />I was meaning to say Spencer Wells <br />young estimate for y-chromosomal Adam. <br />''And the trend is not to estaminate higher ages but to estaminate them younger and younger every year that passes." <br />The trend does not necessarily reflect reality unless you are a follower of Scientology. Thus the TRMCA-estaminates-/estimates may very well be wrong. <br />"So what R1b, R1a or I1 lines we would find in LBK lineages, would be lineages that did not make it into the modern time, because they are from before TMRCAs of modern European haplogroups."<br />I was meaning to explain that if a researcher found R1b1b2 in ancient Mesolithic and/or Paleolithic European human remains this would prove that R1b1b2 is older than the present estimates and therefore most likely it would serve as much evidence for the much overlooked option of a older y-chromosomal Adam. Of course if ancient DNA proved your theory I would agree with you. In other words we must be open minded to new theories even if they suggest something unusual like “Spencer wells underestimated the age of y-chromosomal Adam”. Thank you for your thoughts and commentaries they have given me much food for thought.clusteredmapshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11784837197225241192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-23691689422807092672010-11-11T03:23:48.170+02:002010-11-11T03:23:48.170+02:00Dienekes has a pretty good point. Could these F* g...Dienekes has a pretty good point. Could these F* guys be the direct ancestors of I1* and I2 branches, rather than lineages that just died out? I2* is spread thinly from Asia Minor to England, and his descendants in lesser degrees everywhere in between. The I1* ancestor could have populated less densely populated Central Scandinavia first which would explain rapid growth there. I2 descendants might have had a rougher time with populated Western Europe and explain an additive population, rather than a replacing one.<br /><br />Keep in mind that the LBK hit Central Europe in several waves in which we could see both F* (ancestor to I1? I2 branches?) as well as G2a3.AWoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14966600445259901063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-7019822314740965632010-11-11T02:47:55.884+02:002010-11-11T02:47:55.884+02:00"And the trend is not to estaminate higher ag..."And the trend is not to estaminate higher ages but to estaminate them younger and younger every year that passes."<br /><br />Fanty,<br /><br />It sure is a trend - but that doesn't make it necessarily correct. Even the Haak data from this paper are in contradiction with some published mtDNA estimates (meaning some of the estimates are now at least a factor two <i>too young</i>).eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.com