tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post837561143659590796..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Expansion of E-V13 explainedDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger78125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-57206753465054641202016-05-28T15:26:39.829+03:002016-05-28T15:26:39.829+03:00Apulia was never inhabited by greeks but by Mesaps...Apulia was never inhabited by greeks but by Mesaps and Japigs, who according to ancient historians, are illyrian tribes.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14038164427943233003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-6216508737850970092016-05-28T15:18:56.991+03:002016-05-28T15:18:56.991+03:00Apulia in italy was colonised with greeks? Hah! La...Apulia in italy was colonised with greeks? Hah! Last time i chechked, was Mesapis and Japigs tribes, both illyrian. As given by greek and roman historians. So, starting from there, we may give a broader picture, as te the fact that most of today's greece was inhabited by the same ilyrian blood, pellasgian, from Morava to Morea. The only "ancient" greece being the ex-city states where it had high cultural development.According to greek historians, the macedonian and epeirus dynasties are of the same bloodline, all originating from Hyllus, the mos ancient of illyrian kings said to have lived app. 1225 BC(placing him alomst the same guy as Odysseus, who was also called Ulysses(the water guy)) And almost funny as hell that the time also coincides with the greek dark ages as a cause of "the sea peoples". Moreover, getting into account Publius Virgilus about the foundation of rome by Eneas is the only fitting account where inhabitants of Lemnos(an island next the shore of ex-Troy), are the only ones closely related to Etruscan civilisation, of the ones whom are sometimes regarded as the founders of Rome. And funnier still, Paris the Son of Priam(who has no real menaing in Ancient Greek, as well as does the name 'illyrian') is said to have been the founder of france's capital. which is more corroborated by teutonic tribes' account of Prose Edda and Heimskringla. About the slavic R1a hg, it is well known the affinity of slavic ppl, frnech and benelux countries, as most of them have almost the same colors in their national flag, which can be inferred as the same flag. Slavic hordes went all through middle and western europe to plunder and sometimes to settle there, just as did in the balkans. What remains to be genetically analysed is the remains of peoples who lived in those areas beofre 2000 BC.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14038164427943233003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-69768145774505662262014-09-29T08:27:52.382+03:002014-09-29T08:27:52.382+03:00If we carefully look at the map and the highest pe...If we carefully look at the map and the highest percentages of E-V13, We can see that on the most areas where current ethnic Albanians live E-V13 has its highest percentages, Kosovo Albanians 47.5%, Albanians from Macedonia 39.1%, south Greece 43.5% (were ethnic Albanians called Arvanitas or Arberesh live), north Greece 35.4%, Arvanitas and Peloponnese area 47%% (it is known that Arvanitas lived in Peloponnese area too), and Albania with 27.5%. While the rest of the Greece (were traditionally is known that no Albanians live there) as of those from Crete have only 8.8%, Thrace 19%, and the rest of Greece overall, ethnic Greeks of today have only 19%, it also shows that they are much more Slavicized than Albanians with R1a 16%. Also more mixed with I2a 19% (Sardinia, Dalmatia). <br />In addition, based on a map shown with a percentage of E-V13, south Serbia (were ethnic Albanians live) has higher percentage of E-V13, and south east and north east part of Montenegro (were ethnic Albanians live) have also higher percentage.<br /><br />1: Arvanitas based on Southwest Greece (Arberesh, who spoke a dialect of the Albanian language). It is also argued that Arvanitas were also on Peloponnese area of Greece. <br />2: Epirus (Where Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg declared that he is a descendant of Epirus king of Pyrrhus), <br />3: Dardania (current Kosovo)<br />4: Current Albania <br />5: West (current) Macedonia. <br />6: the Very South of current Serbia<br />7: South East and north East part of current Montenegro<br /><br />E-V13 is 10,000 years old, then we can argue that current ethnic Albanians are NATIVE inhabitants of Europe, it should be interested to see what DNA would the kings of Ancient Greeks have. <br />This also verifies why Greek and Albanian language is 5000 years old as argued in the recent study.<br />http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/08/24/science/0824-origins.html?ref=science&module=Search&mabReward=relbias%3Aw&_r=2&<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16377443669943653042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-70092543803595491112014-09-26T10:02:28.251+03:002014-09-26T10:02:28.251+03:00Region/Haplogroup I1 I2*/I2a I2b R1a R1b G J2 J*/J...Region/Haplogroup I1 I2*/I2a I2b R1a R1b G J2 J*/J1 E-V13<br />Albania 2 12 1.5 9 16 1.5 19.5 2 27.5<br />Kosovo Albanians 5.5 2.5 0 4.5 21 0 16.5 0 47.5<br />Albanians (Macedonia) 1 9 1.5 18.8 1.6 21.9 39.1<br />Greece (Peloponnese) 47<br />Greece (South) 3 20 2.2 19.6 5.5 43.5<br />Greece (North) 2 12 19 14.6 5.2 35.4<br />Greece (Crete) 13 8.8 17 39 8.8<br />Greece (Thrace) 19 22 12 19 19<br />Greece (ethnic Greeks) 19 16 11.7 9 17 19<br />Macedonia (ethnic Slavic) 1 33 1.5 5.1 15.2 1.5 24.1<br />Bulgaria 4 20 2 17 11 5 11 3 23.5<br />Bosniaks 4 56 0 16 3 2 3.5 0.5 10<br />Bosnian Croats 0 71 2 12 2 1 1 0 9<br />Bosnian Serbs 2.5 31 2.5 13.5 6 1 8.5 0 22.5<br />Croatia 5.5 37 1 24 8.5 2 6 1 10<br />Serbia 8.5 33 0.5 16 8 2 8 0.5 18<br /><br />Y haplogroup E1b1b (E-M35) in the modern Balkan population is dominated by its sub-clade E1b1b1a (E-M78) and specifically by the most common European sub-clade of E-M78, E-V13.[68] The area in and around Albanian speaking regions has the highest known percentages E-V13 in the world, and it is thought that the majority of E-V13 in Europe and elsewhere descend from a common ancestor who lived in the Balkans in the late Mesolithic or Neolithic, and that men of this lineage began to spread outside the Balkans as early as the Neolithic, or even as recently as the Roman era.[68][69][70][71][72][73]<br /><br />In contrast, another major discovery relevant to the study of E-V13 origins was the announcement in Lacan et al. (2011) that a 7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in a Spanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens tested from the same site were in haplogroup G2a, which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using 7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not the modern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recent events, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried by early farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Western Mediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age.<br /><br />Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).<br />—Cruciani et al. (2007)<br /><br />References:<br />http://www.jogg.info/32/bird.htm<br />http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml<br />http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanians_(Trojan)<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Agawf3IRD4<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M99ze151HvA<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaonians<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M99ze151HvA<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqMmFS14JjA<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16377443669943653042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-89363021173262827072013-09-16T16:55:46.912+03:002013-09-16T16:55:46.912+03:00Sorry, I am Greek and what I see from the map is t...Sorry, I am Greek and what I see from the map is that Albanians are older than Greeks, maybe they were what ancients called the Dorians. They came from nowhere else, they were always there.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01337636767144027827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-61882479508474508732010-11-11T17:26:39.741+02:002010-11-11T17:26:39.741+02:00i agree with bob-dok
documentariesi agree with bob-dok<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><a href="http://www.humanrestore.com/" rel="nofollow">documentaries</a>Kaluhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04336257210187511243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-66477815027917568042009-04-11T07:02:00.000+03:002009-04-11T07:02:00.000+03:00Dienekes, Albanians have 75% of mutation Delta F50...Dienekes, <BR/>Albanians have 75% of mutation Delta F508, the same if not more than Northern Europeans (Greeks and Italians have less than 60%) <BR/><BR/>Google it and see what it may mean.Landihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12016811140715024419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-88298622692959609232008-10-05T23:16:00.000+03:002008-10-05T23:16:00.000+03:00V13 is Tracian.No doubt abouth that.Paleogenetic R...<I>V13 is Tracian.No doubt abouth that.Paleogenetic Romanian research on Tracian remains</I><BR/><BR/>There is no "paleogenetic research" on Thracian remains that has discovered E-V13, indeed no paleogenetic evidence on E-V13 period.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-45560263676616130802008-10-05T17:00:00.000+03:002008-10-05T17:00:00.000+03:00V13 is Tracian.No doubt abouth that.Paleogenetic R...V13 is Tracian.No doubt abouth that.Paleogenetic Romanian research on Tracian remains has come up with indirect proof in population of Italy(slaves)Isles(Tracians in Roman garnisons)Albanians and East Bulgarians which all come up with V13 on Y-testing.What is more V13 has been in close corelations in arival on the Balcan with Greek J2.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-29199136199615071472008-09-20T17:06:00.000+03:002008-09-20T17:06:00.000+03:00regarding variety: Does it matter if the people ma...regarding variety: <BR/><BR/>Does it matter if the people married almost exclusively within a small group? The people from at least this region http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mal%C3%ABsia only married among each other (but never within one's extended clan no matter how distanced)<BR/><BR/>We have to keep in mind that for generations that area was closed to the outsiders.Landihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12016811140715024419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-43075592347533180792008-09-20T16:53:00.000+03:002008-09-20T16:53:00.000+03:00Thanks for taking your time on that. Please check ...<I>Thanks for taking your time on that. Please check my attempt to translate into English: for a truly star shaped cluster, the variance does not go up and down with the population?</I><BR/><BR/>Different populations can have different variance, depending on when they started expanding and how fast. It's just that their clusters of haplotypes overlap with each other, like a small circle (younger population) within a larger circle (older population).Dienekes Pontikoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01341303424873475334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-47477448025615037782008-09-20T16:26:00.000+03:002008-09-20T16:26:00.000+03:00>Now, if the two subpopulations are not differe...>Now, if the two subpopulations are not differentiated, then for most loci ma1=ma2=ma.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for taking your time on that. Please check my attempt to translate into English: for a truly star shaped cluster, the variance does not go up and down with the population?<BR/><BR/>I suppose that what I must really be arguing then, is that even V13 is not a perfect star shaped cluster. Surely there must be some clusters which would become more obvious if we had a better database. <BR/><BR/>I think however I can now see that measuring an age estimate from variance would not NECESSARILY go up if a single population were compounded from several closely related components.Andrew Lancasterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15050253327442799011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-20522804157360798942008-09-20T13:35:00.000+03:002008-09-20T13:35:00.000+03:00There was no part of the Balkans outside of Greek ...<I>There was no part of the Balkans outside of Greek influence during some periods. Are you truly arguing that the Albanian language comes from outside all areas ever under Greek influence?</I><BR/><BR/>While pretty much most of the Balkans had <I>some</I> Greek influence, the <I>degree</I> of Greek influence is not the same.<BR/><BR/>Now, if the Albanians lived in their present-day location (northwest of Greece by the Adriatic) for a long time, their language would have both sea-related terms and ancient Greek loan words, since the Greeks were in that area for 3ky.<BR/><BR/>This problem would not be solved if one was simply to laterally move their origin to the east in Thrace, as the same problems would arise.<BR/><BR/>The location of the early Albanians is to be sought to the northeast of their present-day location, in the interior of the Balkan peninsula, somewhere where (i) they wouldn't be close to the sea, (ii) wouldn't be close to Greeks.<BR/><BR/><I>Genetic drift could certainly account for less diversity in Albania compared to Greece, but there are so many ways this could have happened - populations going up and down over centuries, and also emigration, an expanding dissipating population, not only immigration.</I><BR/><BR/>No, emigration can't realistically affect Y-STR variance. Read the post on how bottlenecks affect Y-STR variance. Emigration is equivalent to a bottleneck; the only difference is that the population doesn't die or fail to reproduce but moves out.<BR/><BR/><I>I also don't see how you've confronted my very simple question about whether concentrating any population into a smaller geographical area, will not always lead to that population looking "older" based upon normal measures of genetic diversity whenever we talk about a star shaped cluster like this.</I><BR/><BR/>Let <I>a</I> be an allele, let <I>ma</I> be the mean allele, let <I>ma1,ma2</I> be the mean alleles of two subpopulations.<BR/><BR/>Variance is an average of terms of the form:<BR/><BR/>(a-ma)^2.<BR/><BR/>For an allele of one of the subpopulations (e.g. 1), this can be written as:<BR/><BR/>(a-ma1+ma1-ma)^2 =<BR/>(a-ma1)^2+(ma1-ma)^2+2*(a-ma1)*(ma1-ma) (Eq. 1)<BR/><BR/>(replace ma1 with ma2 for the second population)<BR/><BR/>The variances in the subpopulation is an average of terms of the form<BR/><BR/>(a-ma1)^2<BR/>(a-ma2)^2 (Eq. 2)<BR/><BR/>Now, if the two subpopulations are not differentiated, then for most loci ma1=ma2=ma. Hence, from (Eq. 1), the variance of the composite population will be an average of terms:<BR/><BR/>(a-ma1)^2 and (a-ma2)^2 <BR/><BR/>If you do the math, and VAR, VAR1, VAR2 are the variance in the total, population 1, and population 2, then <BR/><BR/>VAR = f1*VAR1+f2*VAR2 (Eq. 3)<BR/><BR/>where f1,f2 are the fractions of the two populations in the composite population. From this it follows that VAR less_or_equal max(VAR1,VAR2).<BR/><BR/>In a star cluster ma1 approx_equal ma2 for most loci, hence the result of admixture will not increase the variance above that of the higher-variance population, but will result in an intermediate variance value (Eq.3)<BR/><BR/>If, on the other hand there is no star cluster but the two populations form their own clusters, then ma1 will be different from ma2 in several loci and the (ma1-ma)^2 term (Eq.1) won't be zero => increased variance.Dienekes Pontikoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01341303424873475334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-54146593132598566852008-09-20T09:47:00.000+03:002008-09-20T09:47:00.000+03:00>how does proximity to Byzantium (a Greek city)...>how does proximity to Byzantium (a Greek city) help one resolve the problem that Albanian lacks Greek loan words.<BR/><BR/>It does not address it at all. The question is whether we are sure that Albanian V13 comes from areas of Greece known to have high V13 diversity. You said that no one believes Albanians could come from the East, which is an example of another direction you could get to Albania from areas closer to Asia. I just pointed out that this is not quite correct. They could have come from the East - perhaps via the north. Remember V13 had a long time to get to Albania.<BR/><BR/>>there was no part of Thrace really outside of Greek influence.<BR/><BR/>There was no part of the Balkans outside of Greek influence during some periods. Are you truly arguing that the Albanian language comes from outside all areas ever under Greek influence? And only based on loan words? Latin and Slavic also have many Greek loan words.<BR/><BR/>Genetic drift could certainly account for less diversity in Albania compared to Greece, but there are so many ways this could have happened - populations going up and down over centuries, and also emigration, an expanding dissipating population, not only immigration.<BR/><BR/>I also don't see how you've confronted my very simple question about whether concentrating any population into a smaller geographical area, will not always lead to that population looking "older" based upon normal measures of genetic diversity whenever we talk about a star shaped cluster like this.<BR/><BR/>Best Regards<BR/>AndrewAndrew Lancasterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15050253327442799011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-6782517155102943152008-09-19T14:35:00.000+03:002008-09-19T14:35:00.000+03:00Well, I was only reacting to your statement that "...<I>Well, I was only reacting to your statement that "no one seriously suggests that Albanians originated to the south or east of Greece". My point is only that there are no really strong theories about the subject. They certainly could come from closer to Constantinople</I><BR/><BR/>Again, how does proximity to Byzantium (a Greek city) help one resolve the problem that Albanian lacks Greek loan words.<BR/><BR/>There may be no strong theories about Albanian origins, since Albanian as a language is attested very late, but the theory that the Albanians originated next to Constantinople can be safely rejected as their existence wouldn't have escaped notice of the many literate accounts we have of the ethnography of the region.<BR/><BR/><I>Depends which part of Thrace?</I><BR/><BR/>Not really, since there was no part of Thrace really outside of Greek influence.<BR/><BR/><I>I don't see how the lack of defined clades makes a difference.</I><BR/><BR/>It is not a matter of defined clades, it is a matter of <I>differentiated</I> clades, irrespective of whether they have been defined by SNPs yet or not.<BR/><BR/><I>It is always a question of statistics, and when different studies conclude different things we should be at least cautious (Perecic et al finds highest diversity NORTH of the Albanian speaking area.</I><BR/><BR/>That's inaccurate.<BR/><BR/>"In Europe, the highest E3b1a variance<BR/>is among Apulians, Greeks, and Macedonians, and the<BR/>highest frequency of the cluster is among Albanians, Macedonians,<BR/>and Greeks (table 1)."Dienekes Pontikoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01341303424873475334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-43995086659745491222008-09-19T14:08:00.000+03:002008-09-19T14:08:00.000+03:00I find it odd that Greeks usually claim that S Alb...<I>I find it odd that Greeks usually claim that S Albania is Greek (to get around the Arvanite /Hydra and Suli factor) but the North has the what you say is 'Greek.'</I><BR/><BR/>Northern Epirus is historically Greek. and there are doubtlessly many Toscs who are Albanized Epirotes. This has nothing to do with the frequency of one particular merker, which incidentally I never claimed was "Greek", but rather an extra-European Bronze Age founding lineage that proliferated among Greeks and spread from there.Dienekes Pontikoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01341303424873475334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-56313254051888389672008-09-19T13:54:00.000+03:002008-09-19T13:54:00.000+03:00Look on page 11, right side. Kosovo is the center ...<I>Look on page 11, right side. Kosovo is the center of it and Steven suggests that this was spread to rest from the Kosovo /FYROM border.</I><BR/><BR/>The high frequency in Kosovo is due to a founder effect, no reason to believe that E-V13 in the Balkans spread from Kosovo.<BR/><BR/><I>Actually he mentions and shows it, albeit in colors. From Arta and 'up' is 0.21 whereas in Kosovo is 0.43. The next round is 0.18 in Greece.</I><BR/><BR/>Er, he misses the Peloponnese where there is strong evidence for a high frequency, some of which was already published at the time when he wrote the article. <BR/><BR/><I>FYI: Malcolm Noel places the Albanian start somewhere in Kosovo /North FYROM, where Ev-13 is oldest according to Bird.</I><BR/><BR/>There is no evidence that E-V13 is oldest in Kosovo or North FYROM. Actually that's a nonsensical inference if he really makes it, since no study of the geographical distribution of E-V13 within FYROM has been made. Taking synthetic maps too far...<BR/><BR/><I>Many people also lost the "Arvanite" connection centuries ago and simply don't know it. </I><BR/><BR/>We don't have to rely on who "remembers" their Arvanite past today. There are maps published 200 years ago, travel reports predating that, that make it clear which locations in Greece had Arvanites in them.Dienekes Pontikoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01341303424873475334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-55783399579241535412008-09-19T09:28:00.000+03:002008-09-19T09:28:00.000+03:00>It also seems unlikely that it can be thought ...>It also seems unlikely that it can be thought original of either Greeks or Albanians as the differentiated groups we know today: while the Kosovo case strongly speaks against a "recent" Greek origin, the Chios and Lesbos case does the same against an even more recent "Arvanite infiltration".<BR/><BR/>Just in case there is a misunderstanding, my posts were not intended to claim that V13 in Greece all comes from Albanian speakers. My whole focus is upon variations in diversity because this is what Dienekes is focusing upon. What I am saying is that even if there is unambiguous evidence that there is more diversity in Greece, this diversity can easily be caused by the sorts of population movements, decreases and increases, which we know happened in the Balkans during many centuries under at least 3 multinational empires.<BR/><BR/>OTOH whether there really is higher diversity in Greece is another question. It is always a question of statistics, and when different studies conclude different things we should be at least cautious (Perecic et al finds highest diversity NORTH of the Albanian speaking area.Andrew Lancasterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15050253327442799011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-44844473313765515292008-09-19T08:25:00.000+03:002008-09-19T08:25:00.000+03:00Concerning Italian and Balkan diversity, how would...Concerning Italian and Balkan diversity, how would we explain the high levels in the Rimini area? See "Male haplotypes and haplogroups differences between urban (Rimini)<BR/>and rural area (Valmarecchia) in Romagna region (North Italy)"<BR/>Gianmarco Ferri et al. Forensic Science International 175 (2008) 250–255.Andrew Lancasterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15050253327442799011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-68243099304563041192008-09-19T08:11:00.000+03:002008-09-19T08:11:00.000+03:00>I have not seen any evidence that E-V13 in the...>I have not seen any evidence that E-V13 in the Balkans originated in Thrace. This hypothesis has more to do with a romantic fascination with the Thracians than with any actual evidence.<BR/><BR/>Well, I was only reacting to your statement that "no one seriously suggests that Albanians originated to the south or east of Greece". My point is only that there are no really strong theories about the subject. They certainly could come from closer to Constantinople, because Christians seem to have moved both to the remoter areas where Albanian is now considered at home, as well as the islands, many of which were under Venice.<BR/><BR/>>With that said, a possible origin of Albanians in Thrace solves none of the problems that I mentioned (sea terms and lack of Greek loan-words). Indeed, one would expect Albanian to have even more Greek loan words if it originated in Thrace, as Thrace was even more heavily colonized by Greeks than the Adriatic coast.<BR/><BR/>Depends which part of Thrace?<BR/><BR/>> Admixture doesn't always increase variance. The necessary condition is for the two sets of Y-chromosomes that mix to be differentiated.<BR/><BR/>> If, e.g. a bunch of Bosnian I men moves to Sweden, and you measured the variance of haplogroup I in Sweden before and after this move, then you would see an increase, the reason being that Bosnian and Swedish haplogroup I are differentiated from each other.<BR/><BR/>Isn't it also true that if someone says that a certain population show more diversity, that this is the same as saying that individuals in that population are more differentiated from each other?<BR/><BR/>> This does not apply to E-V13 which doesn't have such differentiated clusters. All E-V13's in Europe belong to the single star phylogeny, not to any differentiated groups, and certainly not to any differentiated groups centered on different countries.<BR/><BR/>I don't see how the lack of defined clades makes a difference. If all the V13 populations of Europe came to live in one small region, would that region not have more diversity per square km than any other? And is this not the only thing you are looking at to judge age?Andrew Lancasterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15050253327442799011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-74566679800018659362008-09-19T06:25:00.000+03:002008-09-19T06:25:00.000+03:00The Bird maps show "clades" for Greece but do not ...The Bird maps show "clades" for Greece but do not show sample sites in Greece, what suggests that they can be subject to the same criticism of undersampling and extrapolation Bird has for Cruciani. <BR/><BR/>If you check other references (for instance <A HREF="http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05/exploring-y-chromosome-haplogroup.html" REL="nofollow">this post by Dienekes</A> (where he gathers several separate Y-DNA in Greece - I drew <A HREF="http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/7313/greeceydna2xi7.jpg" REL="nofollow">this map</A> after it), you'll see that Y-DNA DE (that for Greece is almost exclusively E-V13) is pretty high (>20%) in most locations of mainland Greece, as well as the Aegean islands, reaching levels similar to those found among Kosovars (c. 40%) in several of them, including Sesklo-Dimini, the epicenter of European Neolithic. <BR/><BR/>On light of this it's very clear that E-V13 is as much Greek as Albanian signature. Would Albanians have arrived from outside the Balcans, as some claim, it seems very odd that they would have incorporated so much local Y-DNA in the very specific form of E-V13, moreso when aculturation via "elite domination" doesn't seem likely in their case (no polities for the most part). <BR/><BR/>It also seems unlikely that it can be thought original of either Greeks or Albanians as the differentiated groups we know today: while the Kosovo case strongly speaks against a "recent" Greek origin, the Chios and Lesbos case does the same against an even more recent "Arvanite infiltration". <BR/><BR/>The best explanation again seems the Neolithic dispersal model. This model does not just account well for a strong founder effect in Kosovo and Albania but also explains the rather high rates found as far north in the continental route of European Neolithic difussion (Hungary, Slovakia). I am convinced that E-V13 carriers were a major component of the peoples that spread the Balcanic Neolithic, generally understood as originated at Sesklo (modern Greece). <BR/><BR/>In this sense, I wonder if there is a gradation within Albania between the highlands (of Balcanic Neolithic background) and the coast (Cardium Pottery Neolithic instead). The highlands should show, I understand, significatively more E-V13 than the coast - while the Bird map does suggest it, it's not sufficiently clear though.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-45746331858358309372008-09-19T04:23:00.000+03:002008-09-19T04:23:00.000+03:00No need to rely on an outdated map that completely...<I>No need to rely on an outdated map that completely ignores E-V13 in Greece.</I><BR/><BR/>Actually he mentions and shows it, albeit in colors. From Arta and 'up' is 0.21 whereas in Kosovo is 0.43. The next round is 0.18 in Greece. In Malesia (North Albania) is about the same as Kosovo, 0.39. I agree with Kosovo's founder effect, many found refuge in Malesi and then left, but why the North specifically?<BR/><BR/>I find it odd that Greeks usually claim that S Albania is Greek (to get around the Arvanite /Hydra and Suli factor) but the North has the what you say is 'Greek.' <BR/><BR/>Just to show how people moved, the Himariotes are originally from the North as well (Kruja, Mirdita) and found refuge after the Turks devastated their area. Someone checked the Stradiotti names and most were old Catholic one (Gjoleka, Gjipal etc)Landihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12016811140715024419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-11750648107971365752008-09-19T04:13:00.000+03:002008-09-19T04:13:00.000+03:00http://www.jogg.info/32/bird.pdfLook on page 11, r...http://www.jogg.info/32/bird.pdf<BR/><BR/>Look on page 11, right side. Kosovo is the center of it and Steven suggests that this was spread to rest from the Kosovo /FYROM border. IIRC it was started at about 8000 years ago. <BR/><BR/>North of Albania is full of it. And no one can say that Arvanites 500-1000 years later are still in a specific area. Many people also lost the "Arvanite" connection centuries ago and simply don't know it. <BR/><BR/>FYI: Malcolm Noel places the Albanian start somewhere in Kosovo /North FYROM, where Ev-13 is oldest according to Bird.<BR/><BR/>Last point: If modern Greece is based on Orthodox religion (Orthodox stayed or came in; 'Turks' were thrown out), how can you be sure of who is Greek and who is, say an Orthodox Kurd? Were all those Anatolian Greeks, really Greek?Landihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12016811140715024419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-40651417524218079472008-09-19T03:54:00.000+03:002008-09-19T03:54:00.000+03:00You sir are WRONG. E-V13 is mostly NORTH of Albani...<I>You sir are WRONG. E-V13 is mostly NORTH of Albania. Search for "Steven Bird E-V13" and you will see the map.</I><BR/><BR/>No need to rely on an outdated map that completely ignores E-V13 in Greece.Dienekes Pontikoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01341303424873475334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-34156042169949393142008-09-19T03:51:00.000+03:002008-09-19T03:51:00.000+03:00>>> "There are probably three source...>>> "There are probably three sources of E-V13 north of Greece: Epirotic E-V13 (E-V13 is high in Epirus, the region identified by Aristotle as ancient Hellas)," <BR/><BR/>You sir are WRONG. E-V13 is mostly NORTH of Albania. Search for "Steven Bird E-V13" and you will see the map. The Kosovars were thrown out of Kosovo by Dusan and took to the mountains. However, populations moved over the course of centuries, like the Suli from N Albania, Arvanites etc.Landihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12016811140715024419noreply@blogger.com