tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post8351147071380313227..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Bell Beakers from Germany: Y-haplogroup R1bDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger131125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-5174797959539246862016-02-10T06:37:47.196+02:002016-02-10T06:37:47.196+02:00Didn't the Atlantic folk reach Scandinavia? La...Didn't the Atlantic folk reach Scandinavia? Last i read they did so i am not surprised that neolithic Swedish farmer would resemble southern european.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03606662971811608250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-62359751271469452352013-10-03T02:32:58.073+03:002013-10-03T02:32:58.073+03:00Question. I get the distinct feeling that people t...Question. I get the distinct feeling that people think that there could only have been one person in the beginning with a specific mutation in their DNA. <br /><br />Could a man and woman have more than one offspring with mostly the same Genes and could that Genes be able to bring forth the same mutations when interbreeding with another Genetically homogeneous group ? <br /><br />Could M269 have entered Western Europe from multiple directions entering Europe from Turkey, Ukraine and by Sea all along the coastal areas ? <br /><br />And by means of their different routes also have picked up different genetic sequences ? <br /><br />I have read about some interesting cultures that might show the migration path of R1b. The Yangelskaya Culture of the Southern Urals apparently have some links to the Earlier Southern Caspian (Azerbaijan) area roundabout 14000 BP and the later Maykop Culture of the Northern Caucuses might be linked to them. Some beaker influence from the lake Baikal area is also evident....<br /> The Maykop Culture could be linked to some Danubian Cultures and Celts of the Alps later on. Interesting enough is that there is a statuette of a bull or cow with long forward and upward sweeping horns in the Maykop findings which looks quite similar to the Barrosa cattle breed of Portugal. Is this just a coincidence ? Bear101https://www.blogger.com/profile/02933288257706063120noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-13649839548892701852012-12-03T04:33:18.261+02:002012-12-03T04:33:18.261+02:00Apologies to all, apparently I should have typed R...Apologies to all, apparently I should have typed Rb1, not R1b1, and also, part of my implicit reading came from reading the Bell Beaker hypothesis/pattern, which seemed to almost be an explicit description of west to east colonization. Thanks again,<br />- kkKir Komrikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09389420163657560871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-25690128212641333932012-12-03T04:30:18.336+02:002012-12-03T04:30:18.336+02:00Hi all,
I'm new to this topic and wanted to tr...Hi all,<br />I'm new to this topic and wanted to try to clarify something that is not only confusing me but confusing a few of my friends that are also trying to follow this larger story.<br />In reading about the habitation of Europe in the distant past my understanding, which I thought was essentially point-blank, black and white in the material I've been reading, was that it appears as though a population was genetically bottlenecked somewhere in Iberia for some time. When that bottleneck broke a very long time ago this population suddenly began basically colonizing the rest of the near world, its haplogroup R1b1 showing in proportion to distance, which seems to make sense as the size of the colonies would likely diminish with distance.<br />But then I began reading that the academic consensus seems to be that "cultural influences" migrated with the R1b1 population from east to west, exactly the opposite. I've googled and looked everywhere I can and can find no intelligible reason why this is believed to be the case. Can someone explain this?<br />There are numerous reasons for my implicit reading but one thing that sticks in my mind is how would a bottlenecked region receive an influx of "people" from the east? Also, why would a gradual increase in the proportions of R1b1 representation from east to west indicate anything by itself?<br />My email is kirkomrik@gmail.com if you'd like to answer there. I appreciate your time in responding.<br />- kkKir Komrikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09389420163657560871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-28806202551703892482012-07-10T14:10:30.816+03:002012-07-10T14:10:30.816+03:00Just a comment regarding the shape of Beaker skull...Just a comment regarding the shape of Beaker skulls. There has been an ongoing study of Beaker isotopes in Britain, and along with this there have been new examination of ancient skulls. It would seem that there is some evidence that people may have been using some kind of head binding, sothey may not have naturally had such round skulls as once thought. This possibly could explain why, if the beakers were the dominant group in Britain c2400-2000 BC (perhaps spreading R1b widely)that this distinct head type seemed to quickly vanish in subsequent generations, reverting to seemingly more 'native' long skulls.<br /> There seems to have been two areas of dispersal of beaker culture into Britain--from Germany/Holland and from Brittany. The Amesbury Archer had an Alpine origin, but like many beaker folk, seemed to have been a wide traveller--his daggers were Spanish and French. A lesser known beaker burial from only 20 mi away (found in the 80's) had similar gravegoods, including gold hair tresses, and his metalwork was also from the same areas. Sadly, when found, there was no such thing as isotope testing. Another group found on Boscombe Down (nr Stonehenge) came up with readings that could either be from Wales or Brittany.<br /> Not enough has been done as yet regarding dna in very ancient British populations, unfortunately.StoneLordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07338820506795034334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-4096999256929368682012-06-18T20:24:10.261+03:002012-06-18T20:24:10.261+03:00Any one had a chance to read this paper:
http://m...Any one had a chance to read this paper:<br /><br />http://maxwellsci.com/print/crjbs/v2-294-299.pdfAverage Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12203996329459638052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-72141212627871934112012-06-18T04:20:40.554+03:002012-06-18T04:20:40.554+03:00Dienekes:
Have you had a chance to see this new p...Dienekes:<br /><br />Have you had a chance to see this new paper from Anatole A. Klyosov on R1b?<br /><br />http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?paperID=19567Average Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12203996329459638052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-69203040009214333592012-05-31T06:53:41.508+03:002012-05-31T06:53:41.508+03:00eurologist
"When agriculture reached the very...eurologist<br />"When agriculture reached the very north of Germany, the HG autosomal component likely was already dominant in the farmers"<br /><br />Yes if they'd come by land. I was suggesting if they'd come by sea along the atlantic coast and their agricultural package was much less productive than it was further south then their population density might be much lower than it was in the south also. So<br /><br />"But wouldn't the trb outbreed the local hunter gathers to much to create modern Swedes"<br /><br />wouldn't neccessarily apply (in logical terms).Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-3146762016958047732012-05-24T22:56:39.501+03:002012-05-24T22:56:39.501+03:00> well, i’d rather not say on the innerwebs. th...> well, i’d rather not say on the innerwebs. there is a slight chance that someone might work out my real identity<br /><br />And interestingly, also a woman. So there were farming women, similar the S. Europeans, in Sweden.princenuadhahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02165977957244158593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-75993339466785728422012-05-22T03:36:24.693+03:002012-05-22T03:36:24.693+03:00"if someone has a reference to a study that c..."if someone has a reference to a study that concludes a Portuguese origin based on evidence, I'd certainly take a look at it."<br /><br />The argument for this is based on the oldest Bell Beaker sites being from Portugal. Northern Iberian Bell Beaker, for example, is quite a bit later and could have orgins from either the south or the north at that point in time.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-13140147988062425462012-05-20T10:51:37.511+03:002012-05-20T10:51:37.511+03:00Grey,
Y-DNA doesn't give us a good picture of...Grey,<br /><br />Y-DNA doesn't give us a good picture of autosomal admixture. mtDNA shows that farmers picked up local women along the way everywhere they went (and modern migrations show the same pattern). When agriculture reached the very north of Germany, the HG autosomal component likely was already dominant in the farmers - with additional admixture later on in Scandinavia. Your question again highlights that the TRB sample likely was an outlier - a recent megalithic newcomer.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-43732381664315136872012-05-19T02:51:41.822+03:002012-05-19T02:51:41.822+03:00"The fact that the farmer was so distinct cre..."The fact that the farmer was so distinct creates an interesting dynamic. If the trb farmers were distinct from their neighbouring hunter gathers then how did the modern Swedes end up so different from the trb farmers? Did the two eventually mix? <b>But wouldn't the trb outbreed the local hunter gathers to much to create modern Swedes?</b>"<br /><br />Say foragers had a population density of 1 and early farmers <b>in suitable terrain and climate</b> had a population density of 5 but too far north their crops were less productive so they developed a forager-cattle-crops hybrid with a population density of only 2 initially then maybe 3 later as they improved their cattle and crops.<br /><br />In the SE the neo and meso might create a hybrid population in the ratio 5:1 neo to meso whereas along the atlantic coast the proportions might have been 2:1 or less.Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-61279579922503383862012-05-19T01:26:58.923+03:002012-05-19T01:26:58.923+03:00"But what is the cause of this divide? Why ar..."But what is the cause of this divide? Why are western and eastern Europeans so distinct from each other?"<br /><br />Tortoise and the hare?<br /><br />Orange tortoise moving slowly up the Danube and along the southern med coast expanding roughly east to west.<br /><br />Blue hare sails around the Atlantic coast, introduces cattle to the foragers creating Atlantic cowboys who expand roughly west to east.<br /><br />Meet somewhere in the middle.Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-83171984413948532602012-05-17T04:20:02.738+03:002012-05-17T04:20:02.738+03:00I've found all these references to the Beaker ...I've found all these references to the Beaker Folk's distinct skull type extremely interesting and am trying to educate myself on the subject. A lot of the relevant academic papers seem to cite a 1953 book by Kurt Gerhardt (Die Glockenbecherleute in Mittel-und Westdeutschland) in which the author made a detailed study of 130 BB skulls. I haven't been able to find the book, but found an old review of it on JSTOR:<br /><br />"The Bell-Beaker pottery and a type of skull called by Gerhardt Plano-Occipital Steilkopf appear together in late Neolithic times in Central Europe; and Gerhardt gives us a study of 130 skulls, with sketches of 73 of them, where possible three sketches of each being shown. The Plano-Occipital Steilkopf with the back of the head almost a vertical plane is the chief, the most numerous and the most marked type among the skulls showing strong brows and jaws and other features with a considerable range of variation. ........<br /><br />Gerhardt emphasizes the anatomical relation of the chief type of Beaker Men to an <b>Anatolian-Armenian</b> breed in a proportion of the men in which one finds that steep rise of the hinder plane of the skull, but admits that there is as yet too little evidence from Armenia of the Beaker period. His view is that the type spread west in the Mediterranean."<br /><br />Here's the link if you have access to JSTOR:<br />http://www.jstor.org/stable/2795139Derekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18212680283436476428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-40612694210892766252012-05-14T15:22:10.344+03:002012-05-14T15:22:10.344+03:00The Balkans study I dont believe. I am waiting for...<i>The Balkans study I dont believe. I am waiting for good<br />SNP and ancient dna data.</i><br /><br />Annie,<br /><br />Strange (biased?) objection since it's been done and the study you don't believe has been confirmed by SNP data analysis.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-66119620685849287402012-05-13T02:24:40.989+03:002012-05-13T02:24:40.989+03:00I agree that they are fine (even good) for recent ...I agree that they are fine (even good) for recent kinship studies. <br /><br />But my reading of the literature is that STRs are largely misleading in trying to work out ancestral roots and branches. For genographic studies exactly like the origins of the R1bs. And the further back you get the more misleading they become. Personally I dont yet have a strong opinion on the source/s and path/s of R1b and would love to know. The Balkans study I dont believe. I am waiting for good <br />SNP and ancient dna data. Like this paper.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11000684388615334278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-63979145930344435212012-05-12T19:35:55.289+03:002012-05-12T19:35:55.289+03:00pconroy/ and R-M269
Interesting ideas. I'm ...pconroy/ and R-M269 <br /><br />Interesting ideas. I'm in the model T Ford of the R1b clan[Eastern European-Silesia] with Dys @ 393-12. <br /><br />I usually score lower on the "Southwest Asian" component-k12b[0.0% versus 2.3%] and relatively higher in the Ged than the average Pole[o.5% versus 5.4%]...<br /><br /><br /> Heads up I'll pm you.ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00239954589937094679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-6888507570734810722012-05-12T17:39:03.794+03:002012-05-12T17:39:03.794+03:00R1b-R M269 migration, Bell Beaker isolate French B...R1b-R M269 migration, Bell Beaker isolate French Basque comparison.<br /><br />"Southern" component in comparison to "West Asian" has netted two entirely different results, by region and group isolates.<br /><br />k12b versus k7b <br /> <br />"Southern"-"South West Asian" components, conflicting results.<br /><br />"k7b" "Southern/Saudi" component;<br /><br />1]Finnish_D-[0.0%]<br /><br />2]French Basque-[26.8%]<br /><br />3]Yemeni Jews/Saudi -[63.4%-64.8%]<br /><br /><br />"k12b" "Southwest Asian" component;<br /><br />1]Finnish_D-[2.6%]<br /><br />2]French Basque-[0.0%]<br /><br />3]Yemeni Jews/Saudi-[53.8%-67.7%]ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00239954589937094679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-53071627651671838322012-05-12T15:23:03.446+03:002012-05-12T15:23:03.446+03:00The whole of North Africa is missing from Myres ma...<i>The whole of North Africa is missing from Myres map. And the case for ancestral R1b in the Balkans was based on STRs and which have been completely discredited as a valid source of data for this kind of study.</i><br /><br />Annie, <br />STRs have by many people been subject of deep concern and by now have been pretty much discredited for <b>one</b> thing: trying to establish a molecular clock based upon them. Their usage in short-term pedigree still stands. <br />But, more importantly, by now SNPs support the European/Anatolian dichotomy and a (currently) Balkan population that at one point (close by) was their progenitor.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-54795335754074644952012-05-12T12:58:50.813+03:002012-05-12T12:58:50.813+03:00To be fair.
The whole of North Africa is missing ...To be fair.<br /><br />The whole of North Africa is missing from Myres map. And the case for ancestral R1b in the Balkans was based on STRs and which have been completely discredited as a valid source of data for this kind of study.<br /><br />IMO there were several waves of R1b at different times and talking about them as one is probably just confusing matters. We should rename the downstream branches and not group them any more.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11000684388615334278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-21079755386342630222012-05-11T16:44:45.709+03:002012-05-11T16:44:45.709+03:00Thanks for your opinions on my question. I see the...Thanks for your opinions on my question. I see there will be differences on this until we have many hundreds of aDNA samples, particularly from North Africa. <br /><br />The "Celtic from the West", which I've read is edited by Barry Cunliffe and John Koch, who also wrote on the Celtic Tartessians who resided near what is now Cadiz in southern Spain. Also interesting reading for those who seek the full picture on the Celts, who still appear to be the dominant R1b group.Mark Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03792117663748801194noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-77326699934646359352012-05-11T12:42:53.710+03:002012-05-11T12:42:53.710+03:00MarkD : "Is it possible then that R1b came up...MarkD : <i>"Is it possible then that R1b came up from North Africa up the coast of Iberia and then across the Bay of Biscay, and not directly from the East? Or at least from the East along the African littoral?" </i> <br /><br />Short answer: no. <br /><br />Apparently given the distribution of ancestral clades they arrived by the Balkans. <br /><br /><a href="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_x6Y4ZgFsZdY/THgPi2xnlbI/AAAAAAAAAZA/fQ9CRVXNv2A/s1600/R1b+sub-structure+V2.png" rel="nofollow">R1b substructure. Map made from Myres et al 2010</a>wagghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13582568982610797947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-7509482880025289052012-05-11T03:10:44.955+03:002012-05-11T03:10:44.955+03:00Now that you mentioned, it's also in southern ...Now that you mentioned, it's also in southern Italy that we find the greatest diversity in Italic (branch-wise, not in number of languages), and it's also in the Aegean that we find the greatest diversity in Greek (again, branch-wise). So a Centum-like group coming through the Mediterranean and even parts of North Africa (some of which = Sea peoples?) is certainly a possibility. <br />That would explain the unusually high diversity of R1b in Western Sardinia, the overwhelming presence of R1b in much of North Africa and the Dead Sea area and maybe even the high incidence of mtDNA T and H in Morocco. Who knows, the Mediterranean route might be a good alternative to the Anatolian-Balkan one. IF (that's a big if) we assume this scenario, it may yet turn out that hgs J and E are the real "Anatolian" ones and spread later in Europe. I'm not convinced yet, but that's an intriguing possibility.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-14646449252258885562012-05-10T16:34:38.037+03:002012-05-10T16:34:38.037+03:00@Mark D
Yes , looking deeper at the whole picture ...@Mark D<br />Yes , looking deeper at the whole picture R1b entering Europe by a North-African route (out of westasian origin) seems to be the best fitting possibility, especially with regards to the African R1b V88<br />Also dont forget that it's in Iberia where we apparently have the greatest Celtic branch diversity and not elswhere in Europe (there is even a book entitled "celtic from west")crishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01232905237272530506noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-61363916837320541802012-05-10T13:21:37.689+03:002012-05-10T13:21:37.689+03:00Question:
"Is it possible then that R1b came ...Question:<br />"Is it possible then that R1b came up from North Africa up the coast of Iberia and then across the Bay of Biscay, and not directly from the East? Or at least from the East along the African littoral?"<br /><br />Consider the Cyprus article Dienekes has just posted about, and also the well-known example of the Cardial Culture. <br /><br />Short answer: yes. <br /><br />Boats good enough for serious mobility of communities was available already thousands of years before.Andrew Lancasterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15050253327442799011noreply@blogger.com