tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post789788944506117332..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Y chromosomes of Bulgarians (Karachanak et al. 2013)Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-78264972649426799752014-09-08T08:10:52.599+03:002014-09-08T08:10:52.599+03:00Thanks for wreaking history science!
When you thi...Thanks for wreaking history science!<br /><br />When you think logically it does make sense.<br />Bulgars came from what is now Ukraine.<br />Bulgaria contains DNA from that area. <br />Remember Turkic language/origins of the Bulgars is only a speculation and a pretty dodgy one at that. <br />What's even more worrying is that people who we called slavic are not really related at all, suggesting a mass invasion/colonisation like the Spanish in Central and South America.<br /> <br />This would suggest that other invading tribes from the plains of the Ukraine are probably just that.<br /><br />Thanks ScienceAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15793899945615471484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-60313619058252736412013-05-26T14:32:00.790+03:002013-05-26T14:32:00.790+03:00@Achaean
Tugba büyüküstün has middle eastern feat...@Achaean<br /><br />Tugba büyüküstün has middle eastern features this kind of eyes is even to find in northern Africa its typical for members of mtDNA U-K groups.<br />In Iranian peoples its much comon and many people things it has to do with Turks but no they are more than 10'000 years there, nothing to do with Turks or east asia.<br />Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10338078092304528368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-81475839806069511812013-03-19T04:47:48.908+02:002013-03-19T04:47:48.908+02:00Achaean, some of those women could pass as South S...Achaean, some of those women could pass as South Slavs. Quasi-mongoloid features sometimes occur without much detectable mongoloid admixture. See this Serb for an example of that:<br />http://www.ossrb.org/main/slikezamenije/Seniori/Sasa%20Starovic.JPGaspromavrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05416539355662136692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-19283044160685603152013-03-18T02:53:23.412+02:002013-03-18T02:53:23.412+02:00Sibel Kekilli is atypical (something to do with he...Sibel Kekilli is atypical (something to do with her eyes) by Turkish standards (and by world standards as well). I did not associate her unique eyes with Mongoloid admixture; it was Achaean, who tends to exaggerate the effects of the small Mongoloid admixture in Turks. Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-27311172966929604972013-03-17T15:50:18.259+02:002013-03-17T15:50:18.259+02:00I'm not sure what you find so atypical about S...I'm not sure what you find so atypical about Sibel Kekilli, at least there is probably nothing (or close to nothing) Mongoloid about her. She often looks pale, yes. But apart from this, I would have rather associated her looks with Orientalids, e.g. the Iranid variety, but don't know exactly how long headed she is. Eurologist said it correctly: She had had her nose made, originally it used to be convex and prominent, and thus typical for West Asians.Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-70303261717715792812013-03-17T09:12:54.700+02:002013-03-17T09:12:54.700+02:00in addition to the fact that she had rhinoplasty
...<i>in addition to the fact that she had rhinoplasty</i><br /><br />I know how her nose was before the rhinoplasty, so I took that into account.<br /><br /><i>she may very well only be 50% or less Turk - as many modern Turks in Germany are.</i><br /><br />Sibel Kekilli is apparently fully Turkish, as her parents were born in Turkey, they have Turkish names (Doğan and Türkan Kekilli), and Sibel Kekilli herself, as far as I know, has reported no ancestry other than Turkish.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-33603790590602881022013-03-16T13:41:51.329+02:002013-03-16T13:41:51.329+02:00Sibel Kekilli, who, BTW, is certainly not a typica...<i>Sibel Kekilli, who, BTW, is certainly not a typical Turk (as always, by Turk I mean Turks of Turkey) and even probably the most atypical (for Turkish standards) of the people of whom you posted photos. She is exotic for Turkish standards too. </i><br /><br />Undoubtedly. And, in addition to the fact that she had rhinoplasty, she may very well only be 50% or less Turk - as many modern Turks in Germany are.<br /><br />Anecdotal: I have a German cousin who married a Turkish women who already had two children (her Turkish husband simply abandoned her, which is sadly not uncommon). The first child looks Turkish. The second child looks a bit Mediterranean, but has no features identifying him as Turkish. The third (their common) child looks a bit dark, but generally German (my cousin tans easily and has black hair and dark eyes).<br /><br />With a historically mixed pre-Turk Anatolian, Turk, and German background, you can get almost anything in just one generation.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-25757411359016391382013-03-13T01:22:28.161+02:002013-03-13T01:22:28.161+02:00@ Valikhan
Sorry, that was CUmanian ancient mtDNA...@ Valikhan<br /><br />Sorry, that was CUmanian ancient mtDNA <br />Here 2005. http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/human_biology/v077/77.5szabo.html<br />Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-9144344555919122082013-03-12T12:56:18.933+02:002013-03-12T12:56:18.933+02:00It seems the Bulgarian part of the researchers - K...It seems the Bulgarian part of the researchers - Karachanak, Toncheva, Galabov, had recently a TV interview. Here is the link, if somebody happens to understand Bulgarian:<br />http://www.skat.bg/products.php?type=10&genre=6249<br />Sena Karachanak is a Bulgarian Turk, but recently married and changed her surname to Yankova. <br />Apart of some general truths about genetics, they mostly repeated the historical part from the Introduction.<br />At the end of the interview, however, they mentioned something very interesting - the same team is working on a study about ancient mtDNA extracted from skeletons found in Bulgaria from different periods - Neolithic, Thracian and early Medieval.<br />They have cooperated with another Italian researcher specialising in that - namely David Caramelli.<br />http://www.unifi.it/dbalan/CMpro-v-p-119.html<br /><br />It is not clear at what stage is that study and when we will be able to access it. The above article appeared 3 years after the actual tests were performed, which already makes it a little obsolete.<br /> genefanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09735643231654122583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-59255165628393982342013-03-12T10:39:19.240+02:002013-03-12T10:39:19.240+02:00Wanted to add that Balkan nations autosomal result...Wanted to add that Balkan nations autosomal results from 23andMe testing are collected in the Balkan Similarity Project.<br />Unfortunately after retiring the Global Similarity feature the new Ancestry Composition is not suitable for independently compare results.<br />I am not able to add more people and the project remains as per Nov 2012.<br />Here are the averages, which show Turks are obviously the odd ones out. <br />https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhnZkF3SRZ_JdEUwTE1MMUpjcGgtbEh2Y0trV3ZjZ3c#gid=1<br /><br />The present study also mentions "Bulgarians distribute within the European cluster, very close to Macedonian Greeks, but relatively far from their south-eastern neighbours - the Turks". <br /><br />eastara<br />genefanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09735643231654122583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-50398534484307311742013-03-12T00:00:07.829+02:002013-03-12T00:00:07.829+02:00Achaean,
If you want to see the exotic, you see t...Achaean,<br /><br />If you want to see the exotic, you see the exotic. People looking similar to the people in the photos you posted can easily be found in many Caucasoid populations except, I think, Sibel Kekilli, who, BTW, is certainly not a typical Turk (as always, by Turk I mean Turks of Turkey) and even probably the most atypical (for Turkish standards) of the people of whom you posted photos. She is exotic for Turkish standards too. <br /><br />As for the study with the 5% result, it is based on the physical anthropological analyses of a total of about 60,000 people from all over Turkey (the most comprehensive so far). You are apparently not trained in physical anthropology; the people who conducted that study were. <br /><br />And finally, I am not obsessed with anything, much less with Atatürk's physical appearance.<br /><br />BTW, let me remind you that we are getting off topic.<br /><br />RegardsOnur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-25481496072080524972013-03-11T16:46:31.681+02:002013-03-11T16:46:31.681+02:00Continued from above:
All women above would look ...Continued from above:<br /><br />All women above would look exotic here in Greece, but also, unusually beautiful so much so that people on the street would just stare at them with an open mouth. Women like them are really rare in Greece, but of course existent. I will give you an example from my family: One of my mother's sisters married a man whose parents came from Giresun-Kerassounta surnamed Aslan-something, and my mother's brother married a woman whose both parents came from Smyrna-Izmir, Christian refugees of course of 1922.<br /><br />Both the man (Nondas) and the woman (Mary) had heavy Central Asian admixture. They both stood out, and they still do now even in their old age. They looked totally different from local Greeks, especially my Uncle Nondas from Giresun (who always cries when he speaks of Giresun) who looks like almost completely Asian. Four of my five cousins (3 girls and 2 boys) still retain obvious Central Asian features that make them stand out in Greece. Especially my two female cousins, they look 100% Türk, in fact so much so that my youngest female cousin was mistaken as half-Japanese by some visiting Japanese Professors. My fiancee, let's call her Gökçe, remarked that my cousins were "more Türk than her".<br /><br />Here's a picture of my cousin whom I refer to (the one on the left) and my other cousin on the right. They look more Turkish than many "Turks" from Edirne or Istanbul, or more Turkish than, for example, CANDAN ERÇETİN who looks 100% Euro and not Turkish at all.<br /><br />http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/8339/88452654027442600356611.jpg<br /><br />(I am sure this post interests Dienekes a lot. I will take the photo down after Onur replies.)<br /><br />Always a pleasure to read your comments about Turkish ethnogenesis & population makeup which, as you can probably imagine, interests me a lot. <br /><br />SincerelyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-48607035659179170592013-03-11T16:44:28.435+02:002013-03-11T16:44:28.435+02:00@Onur: Before I start, I'd like to note that i...@Onur: Before I start, I'd like to note that it is not my intention to insult Turks in any way. This is a friendly discussion, like you and me having tsai together.<br /><br />What consists "Visble Central Asian Admixture" (I do NOT want to use the term "Mongoloid" b/c that term is used by the Nationalists here and I consider it offensive) is 100% subjective. To me, a person with Central Asian Admixture is a person with EITHER somewhat slanted eyes AND/OR somewhat high cheekbones who is notably different from Mediterranean types so much so as to strike people from the other side of the Aegean as "exotic" or "odd".<br /><br />I will give you a few examples:<br /><br />Actress Fahriye Evcen: <br />http://www.bizumgaste.net/userfiles/images/fahriye-evcen_339559.jpg<br />http://static.cinemagia.ro/img/db/actor/12/01/02/fahriye-evcen-484061l.jpg<br />http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/24700000/Fahriye-Evcen-fahriye-evcen-24747439-573-550.jpg<br /><br />Actress Cansu Dere<br />http://oktv.gr/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/cansu.jpg<br />http://www.bellazon.com/main/uploads/photo-762.jpg?_r=1173285339<br /><br />Singer Sezen Aksu<br />http://img1.loadtr.com/b-349498-sezen_aksu.jpg<br /><br />Actress Tuba Büyüküstün<br />http://www.samyeli.net/galeri/tuba-buyukustun-resim-2.jpg<br />http://static.cinemagia.ro/img/db/actor/07/67/32/tuba-buyukustun-831399l.jpg<br /><br />Actress Sibel Kekili, 100% Typical Türk IMHO:<br />http://www.berlinale.de/media/60_jubilaeum_1/starportraits/2010-02-13-1441SibelKekilli_IMG_x900.jpg<br />http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Sibel_Kekilli.jpg<br /><br />Now remember: you are talking to someone who has lived in Turkey, speaks Turkish, and was engaged to a Turkish girl. I have read the Nutuk, I have been all around Turkey from North to South and East to West, I have listened to Ney and Ottoman Music, I have read some of Mevlana's work, I have been to his mausoleum in Konya with my fiancee as a pilgrimage, I love dancing Kerimoglou Zeybek, I listen to Turkish music all day, I drink tsai 10 times per day and play with a tesbih.<br /><br />Saying to me that only 5% of Turks display Central Asian Admixture because it's written in a paper won't make me buy it, b/c I know how Turks look like and I am almost Turk myself (almost). Now, I know that some Turks are obsessed with Atatürk's physical appearance, and thus they get defensive when the subject of ethnic origin is touched upon in Turkey. IMO that's wrong, you must accept yourself the way you are and be proud of it. It is not shameful to have Central Asian features, nor that makes one ugly. Indeed, Turkish women are the most beautiful in the world exactly because they are a Caucasian-Asian mix (IMO).<br /><br />(To be continued)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-29401040276114561472013-03-10T21:49:55.323+02:002013-03-10T21:49:55.323+02:00>> So both Y next generation sequencing and ...>> So both Y next generation sequencing and YSTR data point to a Mesolithic dating of V13 in the Balkans.<br /><br />> Perhaps, but the actual expansion of V13 in the Balkans could have still happened considerably later, eg Bronze Age.<br /><br />Conceivably any Balkan V13 was replaced by other V13 persons. If V13 could expand through the Balkans at that time, it could expaned into the Balkans.<br /><br />It could even be that Balkan V13 was present during the Meso, replaced (killed, died off) by V13 or [x] during the Neo and replaced again by V13 during the Metals.<br /><br />Hg contunuity per se does not indicates autosomal continuity. Any older Balkan V13 persons may have been quite different autosomally from any V13 that may have invaded thousands of years later, presumably via the Near East or from Northern Africa.<br /><br />Nor would autosomal contunuity per se indicate actual population continuity. Similar folk may have invaded later. Autosomal conunity may be only apparant if V13 was followed by [x] and then V13.<br /><br />:)apostateimpressionshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992369104954433139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-85591006182486869062013-03-10T07:44:34.357+02:002013-03-10T07:44:34.357+02:00Dr Rob said...
"...the studies from ancient P... Dr Rob said...<br />"...the studies from ancient Pechenegs, for example, anyhow show them to be of 'western Eurasian' genetic profile..."<br /><br />Can you please, share the link to result of these studies?Valikhanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13866507134402028463noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-21805049842447132952013-03-10T02:09:21.928+02:002013-03-10T02:09:21.928+02:00@ Roy King
"A Mesolithic V13 dating is not a...@ Roy King<br /><br />"A Mesolithic V13 dating is not a problem for two reasons:<br />1) Wei et al high coverage resequencing data has a V13 and 2 V22 chromosomes. The separation between V13 and V22 is 29 SNPs, while the separation of the R1b's from Western Europe is 13 SNPs. Wei et al give a rho-value for the age of R1b as 4300 bp. That gives their separation between V22 and V13 as 29/13*4300=9600 bp, clearly mesolithic in the Balkans and not far from the paper's YSTR estimate of 8000 to 10000 bp for V13. <br />2) Somewhat to my chagrin, V13 was discovered in a Neolithic context with ancient DNA in Western Europe pointing to its antiquity.<br />So both Y next generation sequencing and YSTR data point to a Mesolithic dating of V13 in the Balkans."<br /><br />Perhaps, but the actual expansion of V13 in the Balkans could have still happened considerably later, eg Bronze Age Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-10596968340061024612013-03-09T15:40:58.590+02:002013-03-09T15:40:58.590+02:00So is anyone going to give any iddeas on my theroy...<i>So is anyone going to give any iddeas on my theroy? </i><br /><br />I guess my response to your hypothesis is that quite often, y-DNA is a very poor indicator of autosomal DNA. The example I typically give is that in central Germany, you can pick three people from a village who look like brothers, with one being R1b, one I, and the third R1a.<br /><br />Even with more exotic lineages, there is an easy explanation: a group of men with some (work technique, military, or trade or whatever) advantage moving into a new area may be quite successful, requiring many local women due to common incest stigmas throughout time, even up to the third generation. By then, their autosomal DNA is much diluted, while their y-DNA may have become dominant in the region.<br /><br />Another important factor is the time line of a particular haplogroup. For example, some of Afghanistan's R may be several thousands of years, if not 10,000 years or more removed from those of Europe. Yes, there is an evident connection, because ultimately, almost all Europeans derive from (West, South, Southeast, and East) Asia. But most of that happened 30,000-40,000 years ago, with some additional input during the Neolithic and, e.g., from Roma.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-86778279578815613682013-03-09T14:56:19.197+02:002013-03-09T14:56:19.197+02:00Daniel Kalina,
I have not seen the Fst distances ...Daniel Kalina,<br /><br />I have not seen the Fst distances of many Afghanistani populations, but the ones I have seen possess clearly higher Fst distances to Europeans than those of Turks, Armenians, Caucasians, Kurds and Iranians. <br /><br />I have seen the MDS/PCA and ADMIXTURE/STRUCTURE analyses of many Afghanistani and Tajikistani populations. In MDS/PCA plots all Afghanistani and Tajikistani populations I have seen are more distant from Europeans than Turks, Armenians, etc. are. <br /><br />According to the ADMIXTURE/STRUCTURE analyses, the Afghanistan-Tajikistan area has significant South Asian (more significant in the south) and Mongoloid (more significant in the north) genetic elements which render all of its populations genetically more distant from Europeans than West Asians (except the southernmost West Asian populations that have significant Negroid admixture) are.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-31177598297027973462013-03-09T13:44:51.166+02:002013-03-09T13:44:51.166+02:00As far as I know there was once a study on 3 Centr...<i>As far as I know there was once a study on 3 Central Anatolian villages. One of them of Avsar Turkic origin. This Avsar village was high in Haplogroup L and Q.</i><br /><br />That Avshar village is a genetically and culturally exceptional village for Turkey. I know this because I corresponded with the lead author of that study, Ömer Gökçümen, who told me how exceptional that village is and added that his team genetically investigated many more villages of Anatolia but did not publish their results.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-32107651496751468702013-03-09T13:17:36.547+02:002013-03-09T13:17:36.547+02:00The Central Asian Turkic ancestry in Turks (as usu...The Central Asian Turkic ancestry in Turks (as usual, by Turks I mean Turks of Turkey) exists in a very diluted form as a result of the centuries of mixing with the natives of the former Byzantine Empire. Thus despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of the population of Turkey are Turks ethnically, only a very small percentage (not more than 5%) of the population of Turkey possess visible Mongoloid features according to the physical anthropological analyses. This is no more than the frequency of possession of Mongoloid features in Eastern Europe. <br /><br /><i>Even in provinces of Western Anatolia, there are many people with slanted eyes, high cheekbones and very obvious Central Asian ancestry.</i><br /><br />Even? According to the historical records and, apparently, genetics, coastal southwestern Anatolian Turks (excluding recent migrants from the Balkans and the other parts of Anatolia) have the highest amount of Central Asian Turkic ancestry in Turkey, probably a result of the significant Yoruk (=nomadic Turk) heritage of that part of Turkey.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-3462123840534886132013-03-09T02:46:11.235+02:002013-03-09T02:46:11.235+02:00The Kalash are Isolated, I do not think they are c...The Kalash are Isolated, I do not think they are close to Europeans,Populations close to Europeans according to Uni-paternal markers include the Nuristani, the Tajiks in Afghanistan, and the Shugnan, in addition if the SHugnan have lots of haplogroup R1b1b then it is possible tat the ancestors to the bulk of modern Europeans may have been nin the area around Afghanistan or Central asia during Mesolithic times. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08705585895945814438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-52900235949827523662013-03-09T02:35:16.454+02:002013-03-09T02:35:16.454+02:00So is anyone going to give any iddeas on my theroy...So is anyone going to give any iddeas on my theroy? Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08705585895945814438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-46821591682588407662013-03-09T00:41:21.112+02:002013-03-09T00:41:21.112+02:00@kalupitero As far as I know there was once a stud...@kalupitero As far as I know there was once a study on 3 Central Anatolian villages. One of them of Avsar Turkic origin. This Avsar village was high in Haplogroup L and Q.<br /><br />http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2011/04/variation-in-four-central-anatolian.htmlKurtihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00818803833239507313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-19302247294918015472013-03-09T00:28:01.109+02:002013-03-09T00:28:01.109+02:00"In my experience the most bitter arguments a..."In my experience the most bitter arguments are those between family members."<br /><br />In autosomal studies, Bulgaria's FST distance to Turkey is 0.0040, while it's distance to either Spain or England is 0.0025.kalupiterohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06731880017844927329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-11699019024624084032013-03-08T21:39:47.849+02:002013-03-08T21:39:47.849+02:00A Mesolithic V13 dating is not a problem for two r...A Mesolithic V13 dating is not a problem for two reasons:<br />1) Wei et al high coverage resequencing data has a V13 and 2 V22 chromosomes. The separation between V13 and V22 is 29 SNPs, while the separation of the R1b's from Western Europe is 13 SNPs. Wei et al give a rho-value for the age of R1b as 4300 bp. That gives their separation between V22 and V13 as 29/13*4300=9600 bp, clearly mesolithic in the Balkans and not far from the paper's YSTR estimate of 8000 to 10000 bp for V13. <br />2) Somewhat to my chagrin, V13 was discovered in a Neolithic context with ancient DNA in Western Europe pointing to its antiquity.<br />So both Y next generation sequencing and YSTR data point to a Mesolithic dating of V13 in the Balkans.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02272252711544391571noreply@blogger.com