tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post7760838106757921990..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Population structure in Hispanics (Bryc et al. 2010)Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-29331439215408797062010-11-11T18:27:06.172+02:002010-11-11T18:27:06.172+02:00Malloy, we know that R1b1*/V88+ and some subclades...Malloy, we know that R1b1*/V88+ and some subclades is diffused in Africa: see the paper of Cruciani, then an African R1b1* is likely. The problem is where this haplogroup came from: from Asia via Middle East or from Europe (Italy or Spain)?Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-14956777141138711732010-11-11T15:20:58.230+02:002010-11-11T15:20:58.230+02:00Maju: With respect to the R1b1*, I know someone wh...Maju: With respect to the R1b1*, I know someone who belongs to this Haplogroup and has an oral family history, and a last name to back it up, of being descended from the "Black Conquistador" Juan Valiente. <br />See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Valiente <br />May be spurious, but interesting none the less.C.L. Malloyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00396566723335716742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-49317868081637969212010-05-17T19:59:11.436+03:002010-05-17T19:59:11.436+03:00Interesting, according to this study, about 30% of...Interesting, according to this study, about 30% of both Ecuadorians and Colombians have a Y-chromosome indicating Middle Eastern / North African ancestry. I have always thought that many Colombians have very Middle Eastern looking features.Garethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14463625520338156844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-53903487075207128132010-05-17T06:57:40.724+03:002010-05-17T06:57:40.724+03:00Comparing Urso with the other Calabrians (Merante,...Comparing Urso with the other Calabrians (Merante, Prowting and Donato) and the Piedmontese Ferrero, who are closely related, they have a MRCA about 2800 YBP. This is for an Italian origin, I think, of this clade of R1b1b2*.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-41027411147760764212010-05-15T17:50:30.496+03:002010-05-15T17:50:30.496+03:00I am seeing that there is another Italian who has ...I am seeing that there is another Italian who has YCAII=17-23: Urso from Mesoraca, Calabria (Ysearch VU772). Unfortunately he hasn't updated his results.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-8928107993892887842010-05-14T01:39:20.201+03:002010-05-14T01:39:20.201+03:00"[W]ithin that 1% we have about 29 languages ..."[W]ithin that 1% we have about 29 languages from about 7-8 language families."<br /><br />Maybe. Most S. American linguists are very reluctant to lump as opposed to split language families. They set a very high burden of proof to establish one, and have very thin data. The only literary languages in the New World were in Central America (on up into Mexico) and Europeans who did any documentation of languages (mostly Catholic missionaries) came considerably more recently than 500 years ago, so there are no historic versions of the current languages to work with.<br /><br />Limited to the current versions of non-literary languages with the extent of outsider knowledge of them being pretty thin, it is safe to assume that further data can only lead to more lumping, rather than more splitting. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the number of language families fall to three or fewer eventually.Andrew Oh-Willekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537151821869153861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-72510472973777549012010-05-12T19:26:16.696+03:002010-05-12T19:26:16.696+03:00What do you think, Argiedude? If we compare Merant...What do you think, Argiedude? If we compare Merante (QXGKN), Prowting (JUDZ8), Donato (796ME) and Ferrero (FMTPA), the first three from Calabria and the fourth from Piedmont, they have a MRCA between 1,000 and 1,200 YBP.<br />If we add Jlelati (G5CCP) from Lebanon they have a MRCA between 1,350 and 1620 YBP.<br />If we add Thiel (8334H), probably from Switzerland (Rhaetia), we have a MRCA between 1550 and 1860 YBP.<br />Do you think it is more likely that this cluster is from Italy or from Middle East?Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-70001111381529549392010-05-08T15:16:46.675+03:002010-05-08T15:16:46.675+03:00Argiedude, 8334H (Theile), has probably a German s...Argiedude, 8334H (Theile), has probably a German surname and perhaps comes from the Rhaetian Region like Tarnuzzer (UY5NN) who come from the Grison (Switzerland).<br />The other Italian close to Merante is Prowting, who has an Italian extraction and is very close to<br />Merante.<br /><br />Merante, who is my friend from long time, and has always said that I am the most expert in Genetics and Genealogy all over the world (?) (I have always centered his ancestry, like his mitochondrial), did 23andMe. I invited many times him to post his data to "Adriano's spreadsheet, but he hasn't done it so far. He is living in Russia now, but I wouldn't want he is a friend of mine but perhaps more Vincent's friend. On his data many are playing.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-83579765720946904292010-05-08T13:42:42.728+03:002010-05-08T13:42:42.728+03:00Andrew,
I think at this stage they were trying to...Andrew,<br /><br />I think at this stage they were trying to find about everything on a general study of people coming from all over Latin America. I don't think they are doing much about expanding the size, we are talking about 2 hundred something individuals from 5 countries...and with that they expect to find out about indigenous structures, Middle Eastern background and all the rest?<br /><br />For me what they are doing is basically adding some genetic samples to the Ecuatorian sample, to the Mexican sample, to the Dominican sample, etc.<br /><br />Do you want to do some study about native American substrata among non native Latinos? <br /><br />I found this way more interesting:<br /><br />http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6BEcPdmkSKQJ:www.scielo.org.co/pdf/abc/v14n1/v14n1a12.pdf+diversidad+in+Venezuela+haplogrupos&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=be<br /><br />It is in Spanish, by Venezuelan researchers. They first selected 4 locations in Northwestern Venezuela and from there individuals with all grandparents coming from the same area. They determined the maternal haplogroups of native American origin and then they tried to see if there was some pattern that may relate to what we know from history about the populations that existed in those areas.<br />Those areas have been mixed and people there have spoken Spanish only already for several centuries and yet we know some may have had Carib, some Arawac populations.<br />The study was not as detailed as I would have wanted, but it brought things a little bit forward.<br /><br />It would have been interesting had they performed aDNA studies as well, but at least they focused on something.<br /><br />Only 1% of Venezuela's population is "purely native American" and they live very far from the studied regions. Still, within that 1% we have about 29 languages from about 7-8 language families. <br /><br />And the NY blokes wanted to find native American patterns by studying "220 Latinos from five different countries in a NY area"?<br /><br />I still think at this stage they should have had better focus.Keplerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11125538872924743270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-51138744173318270752010-05-08T01:56:06.562+03:002010-05-08T01:56:06.562+03:00Gioiello, that was very interesting! Indeed, there...Gioiello, that was very interesting! Indeed, there's definitely a cluster of M269* with YCAII = 17/23, and it is very curious that R1b1*-A2 has YCAII = 18/23. There's one problem, though. R1b1b1 has YCA = 19/25, suggesting that a jump from YCAIIa=18 to YCAIIa=19 would have occured already in R1b1b (P297), and then M269* would have appeared, and one of its lineages would have suffered a freak mutation from YCAII = 19/23 to YCAII = 17/23.<br /><br />Or maybe, R1b1b inherited 18/23 from R1b1*, and so did R1b1b1 and R1b1b2, and then R1b1b1 and R1b1b2 independently mutated to 19/23, while this cluster retained the ancestral value 18/23. It is very curious how of all R1b1b2 lineages the only one that has modal 17/23 comes from the most basal (and very rare) of existing R1b1b2 clades.<br /><br />The cluster is confirmed thanks to the following values that clearly distinguish it from other M269* samples:<br /><br />385a = 12<br />448 = 20<br />YCAII = 17/23<br />444 = 13<br />446 = 14<br /><br />426=11 helps distinguish this cluster from non-M269* R1b1b2 samples.<br /><br />The cluster is centered in Italy. I think the percentages might be 0,5% in the south and Sicily, and 0,2% in the north. But there's a ysearch sample, 8334H, who isn't Italian, probably North European, and who seems to belong, though maybe not (I think he does). And there's an smgf sample from Lebanon, Jlelati, who is unquestionably a member of the cluster, having every single STR value I outlined previously.<br /><br />I don't know what to say, I think there might be a chance this cluster could be the most basal grouping of R1b1b2* (M269*). All because of that 17/23 oddity. 446=14 is another coincidence with R1b1*-A2, but there were a lot of misses, too; that 446 coincidence could easily be an inevitable coincidence that we would find in any other cluster just due to sheer luck. It's the 17/23 value that doesn't look like sheer luck.<br /><br />To get a grasp of how rare these values are in R1b1b2, YCAIIa = 18 is 1% of R1b1b2-ht15 samples, and YCAIIa = 17 is 0,1%. There doesn't seem to be any cluster of R1b1b2-ht15 that has YCAIIa = 18. So yes, this is very intriguing. A legacy from R1b1* ?? We need a walk-the-y test on these samples.aargiedudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02885756901119408472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-13677296309524837482010-05-08T00:43:08.202+03:002010-05-08T00:43:08.202+03:00@ Kepler:
Studies that have the same general conc...@ Kepler:<br /><br />Studies that have the same general conclusion constitute both (1) replication, which is a core part of the scientific process, and (2) expand the sample size and thereby the accuracy of prior studies via meta-analysis.<br /><br />Also, aDNA studies like this one, which are more rare because they used to be expensive, resolve distinctions between admixture in individuals v. admixture of populations. Y-DNA and mtDNA studies can distinguish between the two.<br /><br />Finally, aDNA studies like this one, provide more resolution of the underlying subgroup population structures beyond mtDNA and Y-DNA. This is useful, for example, in getting a sense of what kind of population structure may have existing in indigenous American populations in a historical era like ours when there are few, if any, pure blooded indigenous Americans left. In Latin America, where the paternal line contribution was much greater than the maternal line contribution, aDNA studies like this one allow us to infer, for example, information about indigenous paternal line contributions that could be determined in no other way.Andrew Oh-Willekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537151821869153861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-30119152527447600162010-05-07T23:24:00.977+03:002010-05-07T23:24:00.977+03:00@ Kepler, I too have a big issue with [pick a reli...@ Kepler, I too have a big issue with [pick a religion] focus of these tests. Another study showed that Southwest spanish americans statistically were no different that Iberian (even still the want exists for certain people to be descendants of conversos/marranos/cryptojews etc...). I've been a big fan of this site and the excellent commentary that has brought a spot light to this issue. For whatever reason, I have never seen a study showing the effects of the major empires of the Mediterranean on Iberia. In other words, why don't these dna sites have tests for "Greek" or "Roman" or Anatolian ancestory? (or is there money to be made otherwise thus studies are skewed?). On one particular Mexican ancestory site there appears to be an overwhelming wish to be Jewish; even after showing evidence to the contrary (dna, patronym usage, birth certificates, even proving certain familes being part of the Order of St James...nothing works). One potential author on this site claims he's using ancient scrolls and a book called the "green book" to distinguish converso Jewish Mexican families (a book which has no merit now or then); Or the ancient scrolls which go all the way back to Noah, I called it a fantasy and was banned from the site. <br /><br />Now you'll even see a site or two claiming tortillas of arena (flour tortillas) as being Jewish! Even if they are made with lard!Cuah123https://www.blogger.com/profile/02783790297470822871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-41210764958225185952010-05-07T21:22:42.673+03:002010-05-07T21:22:42.673+03:00Regarding this paper, populations in disequilibriu...Regarding this paper, populations in disequilibrium, and statistical methods, I came across this abstract:<br /><br />http://content.karger.com/produktedb/produkte.asp?typ=fulltext&file=000119107<br /><br />"Review and Evaluation of Methods Correcting for Population Stratification with a Focus on Underlying Statistical Principles"<br /><br />Hemant Tiwari, et al.<br /><br />Haven't paid for and downloaded the full text and I don't happen to subscribe to the International Journal of Human and Medical Genetics.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-78028623501577089732010-05-07T21:18:00.112+03:002010-05-07T21:18:00.112+03:00Hey Kepler,
To my eye, this paper simply quantifi...Hey Kepler,<br /><br />To my eye, this paper simply quantifies what even the most casual observer will intuitively understand when observing Latino populations. I guess it is helpful to understand a little about "disease risk, drug efficacy, etc, etc." but with the currently economic and healthcare climate in the US, Mexico and Central America, it's hard to see how this data could be used to implement an effective drug and disease risk policy. I'm sure the health insurance companies will be combing over the possibilities.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-41553204225061853502010-05-07T19:52:26.490+03:002010-05-07T19:52:26.490+03:00Did they get pay to carry out this study? I don...Did they get pay to carry out this study? I don't see the added value. I have read quite a lot of studies carried out already over the years on population genetics in Venezuela, Argentina, Mexico, Dominican Republic. What's new?<br /><br />And they all have shown over and over again what any Latin American who has had contact with other Latin Americans know: that coast Colombians tend to be more sub-Saharan, as Dominicanos, that Mexicans tend to be more Indian, etc. and that the European part predominates big time on the paternal side with native American as first component on the maternal side, plus a couple of other details. Nothing new here.<br /><br />By the way, as I mentioned already, I have a J2 as male haplogroup, the pattern looks like matching one of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron<br />and I have no knowledge of Jewishness whatsover in my family. My closest matches are from Italy, Germany, some Spain and one Libanon and Saudi Arabia...all over the "Old World" map...but then we know how Palestinians, Tunesians, etc, are underrepresented in the whole samples.<br /><br />Did they want to prove we were all<br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marrano" rel="nofollow">marranos</a> that escaped to America?<br />What else?<br /><br />I think this study lacked focus.Keplerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11125538872924743270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-67835978295855564282010-05-07T16:41:08.063+03:002010-05-07T16:41:08.063+03:00Correction: "In view of the fact that the SA ...<b>Correction:</b> "In view of the fact that the SA component of the analyzed Adygeis is much more prominent than the analyzed Arabic-speaking West Asian populations of course."<br /><br />It would be thus:<br /><br />"In view of the fact that the SA component of the analyzed Adygeis is much more prominent than <b>that of</b> the analyzed Arabic-speaking West Asian populations of course."Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-48208950377422580062010-05-07T14:58:46.678+03:002010-05-07T14:58:46.678+03:00Uygurs are a Turkic speaking CA population, but th...Uygurs are a Turkic speaking CA population, but they live too much in the east to have any relevance to Adygeis, I think geographically western Turkic CA populations (like Turkmens, Uzbeks, Karakalpaks, western Kazaks) are more relevant in this regard.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-4359316733166763062010-05-07T14:56:03.535+03:002010-05-07T14:56:03.535+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-56831238503983309732010-05-07T14:46:35.142+03:002010-05-07T14:46:35.142+03:00though cluster analyses also on Iranian population...<i>though cluster analyses also on Iranian populations is needed to confirm this</i><br /><br />We also need to make cluster analyses of the West Siberian populations and Turkic and Iranic speaking CA populations to test other alternatives.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-51770491576387866262010-05-07T14:41:49.245+03:002010-05-07T14:41:49.245+03:00I think this points to their relationship to the I...<i>I think this points to their relationship to the Iranian corridor</i><br /><br />In view of the fact that the SA component of the analyzed Adygeis is much more prominent than the analyzed Arabic-speaking West Asian populations of course.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-86310711670187282072010-05-07T14:40:33.138+03:002010-05-07T14:40:33.138+03:00Argiedude, as I think having demonstrated in the p...Argiedude, as I think having demonstrated in the past on this forum with regard to R1b1b2(L23-), also in these R1b1*s probably there are many cripto-Italians, among above all the South Americans. But also the Puertoricans could be of Italian descent, in spite of their Spanish surnames. Ask Milesius, who wrote on "forums-dna", and who is an expert of Puertorican ancestry.<br /><br />That the modal of R1b1b2(L23-) could be 18-23 and not 19-23 could be demonstrated by the fact that Italians (the friend Joe Merante and an Italian I put on Ysearch from SMGF: Ferrero, then Italy from South to North) are the unique who have 17-23 and in Italy there are also R1b1b2(L23-)s with 18-23.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-41819896116787463232010-05-07T13:15:54.412+03:002010-05-07T13:15:54.412+03:00ONUR DINCER: "What about the Adygei (who are ...<i><b>ONUR DINCER:</b> "What about the Adygei (who are a NW Caucasian speaking people from northwest Caucasus)? They also appear as clearly different from the rest of the analyzed European populations in their proportion of non-European component distribution.<br /><br />Furthermore, according to the genetic studies I have read about Adygei people they also show some signs of admixture from Siberia and Central Asia (also from South Asia)." <br /><br /><b>LUIS ALDAMIZ:</b> "If you follow the link Dienekes posted above you can see that they show high presence of the "South Asian" component (also high but not so much in West Asia) but only quite low of the East Asian/Amerindian component, lower than Vologda Russians certainly."</i><br /><br />Maju, I didn't say Adygei are NA admixed, I only said they show signs of admixture from Siberia, CA and SA without referring to the proportions of each of these three places of admixture. I already know that the main non-European component in Adygeis is SA, I think this points to their relationship to the Iranian corridor, though cluster analyses also on Iranian populations is needed to confirm this. Btw, the small EA component in Adygeis may be a remnant of some Turkic admixture.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-34280561623417376272010-05-07T11:00:33.040+03:002010-05-07T11:00:33.040+03:00Having Italy YCA=18-22 and 23-23, I think we can s...Having Italy YCA=18-22 and 23-23, I think we can surely adfirm that the Iranian and the Eastern A2 clade are derived from the European one by a RecLOH. If the Italian one is derived from the North-West European or vice versa we can only hypothesize. But I bet yet on Italy.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-78973918732482118472010-05-07T10:54:38.992+03:002010-05-07T10:54:38.992+03:00eurologist will be happy
OT - you can comment mor...<i>eurologist will be happy</i><br /><br />OT - you can comment more on that in that particular thread - but what in particular have I stated in the past that would make you think so? Your memory is probably better than mine... ;) Just curious, because I tend to "just throw out there" a lot of thoughts and ideas...<br /><br />I do have some specific ideas, but they are certainly not of the "multiregional" variety.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-203520986244688032010-05-07T10:45:58.149+03:002010-05-07T10:45:58.149+03:00Very good work, Argiedude. Not having more excel o...Very good work, Argiedude. Not having more excel on my PC, I am seeing your spreadsheet only now at my school.<br />It seems that Puertorican and Jewish A2 have suffered a founder effect and they are worth each for 1.<br />The ancestor of R1b1b2 is probably among the European YCA 18-23 or 18-22 (the Italian one).Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.com