tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post7535921295669486983..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: 500K SNP Europe-wide study of genetic structureDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger137125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-4458542090962055722009-09-02T04:06:10.561+03:002009-09-02T04:06:10.561+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-54166898031851569652009-04-05T22:27:00.000+03:002009-04-05T22:27:00.000+03:00Finns are pushed right because of their eastern eu...Finns are pushed right because of their eastern european genes and due to the erroneous method in all studies. Mistakes in sample cropping are present, but are smaller factors. <BR/><BR/>Greater factor is the lack of Northern Russian samples because wide genome comparison with all surrounding areas around would pack it tight. Adding Batic, Russian, Northern Russian, Sweden and Russian samples will squeeze Finnish area, because of all other, less significant for Finns, sampled genes of those populations will take part in the placement calculation. All disparity and originality in the periphery of PC-map will be emphasized.Maurihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03670078523265515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-74359368721526750462009-03-08T15:12:00.000+02:002009-03-08T15:12:00.000+02:00wow central italians are even more south on this m...wow central italians are even more south on this map then the portugese and greeks are!! i wonder where sardinians woud be placed if they were sampled? maybe to the far south and west near portugese but more south! i wonder where southern italians woud be placed id assume more east south then north greeks and turks woud be farthest south and east if they were sampled! i hope more studies like this woud be releasedsardiniankidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17985488612748758635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-28370175534473420132009-01-17T16:38:00.000+02:002009-01-17T16:38:00.000+02:00Whatever the validity of your criticisms, Bobafett...Whatever the validity of your criticisms, Bobafetto, you should show some respect. Moreso when you are at Dienekes' home, so to say, and he's so liberal as not to outright delete your insulting comment (as I would have done very justifiedly).<BR/><BR/>Anyhow that kind of insulting attitude only shows your immaturity and damages your position in the discussion by putting everybody against you automatically. They won't even ponder your argument, as the first impression they get is: "woah, another troll!"Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-61353723417140548122009-01-17T15:28:00.000+02:002009-01-17T15:28:00.000+02:00based on an uncomplete studyRight, the position of...<I>based on an uncomplete study</I><BR/><BR/>Right, the position of a single Finn on a 2D map is the "complete study"...Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-90990859617845989932009-01-17T13:42:00.000+02:002009-01-17T13:42:00.000+02:00What a sorry character Mr Medienekes is lol. He´s...What a sorry character Mr Medienekes is lol. He´s quick to conclude an Asian ancestry for the Finns based on an uncomplete study on the genetic structure of European populations. Just like Polak wrote, once we add Slavic and Baltic populations to the equation the picture changes completely.<BR/><BR/>http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/08/genetic-map-of-europe-again.php<BR/><BR/>I can´t but help feeling sorry for Mr Medienekes who´s obsession and Asperger like Zwangsvorstellung on an Asian origin for the Finns is jeapardizing his reputation as a serious debater on the subject of human genetics.Bobafettohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03414178633967149645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-88182111481192006562008-12-30T07:35:00.000+02:002008-12-30T07:35:00.000+02:00Excellent Study.- Daryl BasarabExcellent Study.<BR/><BR/>- Daryl BasarabDaryl Basarabhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17064567580684271098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-7786652014233251642008-09-01T03:06:00.000+03:002008-09-01T03:06:00.000+03:00A study that includes samples from a few new popul...<A HREF="http://racehist.blogspot.com/2008/09/another-european-genetic-structure.html" REL="nofollow">A study that includes samples from a few new populations</A>.<BR/><BR/>Latvians, Russians, and Ukrainians appear to be even more extreme than Finns on PC2, not intermediate between Swedes and Finns.n/ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02378473351485233448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-84594489422660713062008-08-28T13:24:00.000+03:002008-08-28T13:24:00.000+03:00Semitikes, What´s your stance on the Sami aborigin...Semitikes, <BR/><BR/>What´s your stance on the Sami aboriginals of FennoScandinavia? These folk carry 25-35% of N1c, much less than Baltic-Finns.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12904866274339527690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-29487035137157061242008-08-27T17:17:00.000+03:002008-08-27T17:17:00.000+03:00I think Dienekes may be right in the discussion wi...I think Dienekes may be right in the discussion with Polak, yet the two graphs show some differences: Finns are better aligned in PC2 with Armenians in the West Eurasian graph than in the global one. <BR/><BR/>Anyhow that blank space "south" of the Finns should be filled up with Eastern Europeans, would these be sampled. Russians for instance are likely to show some trend towards Siberian populations, even if they cluster much more strongly with Europeans. Just as Finns or maybe only somewhat like them (only further research will tell).Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-14041136634427675712008-08-27T15:50:00.000+03:002008-08-27T15:50:00.000+03:00>> Here's a direct quote from the articl...>> Here's a direct quote from the article.<BR/><BR/>Yes, the NY Times article, not the published one.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-77558468781642653982008-08-27T13:02:00.000+03:002008-08-27T13:02:00.000+03:00Here's a direct quote from the article. Looks like...Here's a direct quote from the article. Looks like Polako, got it 100% correct.<BR/><BR/>"The map also identifies the existence of two genetic barriers within Europe. One is between the Finns (light blue, upper right) and other Europeans. It arose because the Finnish population was at one time very small and then expanded, bearing the atypical genetics of its few founders".<BR/><BR/><BR/>Congrats for Semitikes, docile people are what the world needs.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12904866274339527690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-49536402920141180892008-08-27T12:21:00.000+03:002008-08-27T12:21:00.000+03:00>> And this is just where they devaite as a ...>> And this is just where they devaite as a result of the blue (Baltic?) markers.<BR/><BR/>Incorrect, they are using all markers.<BR/><BR/>>> looking at intra-European markers<BR/><BR/>Incorrect, they are looking at all the markers on the chip that passed quality-control. <BR/><BR/>PS: In Bauchet et al. it is clear that Finns are 10% of the way between Germans and Altaians on PC2 (Figure 2).Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-91061131165787943922008-08-27T10:04:00.000+03:002008-08-27T10:04:00.000+03:00Dienekes,This is where the Finns deviate towards t...Dienekes,<BR/><BR/>This is where the Finns deviate towards the Altaians in Bauchet.<BR/><BR/>http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/6245/10rv8.jpg<BR/><BR/>And this is just where they devaite as a result of the blue (Baltic?) markers. And it has nothing to do with Altaians, who are no longer part of the picture.<BR/><BR/>http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/2451/eurodnank8.jpg<BR/><BR/>The Lao study is basically like this second diagram, looking at intra-European markers and differenecs.Polakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08791738703122670119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-65222787567151375372008-08-26T20:06:00.000+03:002008-08-26T20:06:00.000+03:00"No recent studies using large numbers of markers ..."No recent studies using large numbers of markers have found any substantial autosomal DNA from Sub-Saharan African in Europe. Even Near Eastern Arab populations such as the Palestinians who were thought (erroneously) to have Sub-Saharan admixture due to mtDNA turn out to have 0% Sub-Saharan admixture (Li et al.)"<BR/><BR/>As usually you like to play little semantic gimmicks with "significant" and "substantial" whenever it fits to your purpose. We all you know that your blog is very agenda driven. Your obvious goal is to portray Northern Europeans as something they are not. Finns are an easy target and from them you extend your little liturgies to rest of the Northern Europeans. It's all the same "blonds are not as beautiful as mediterranian" stories. <BR/><BR/>Don't blame the Northern Europeans that hollywood has casted Dago's as non-whites, you little complexed Greek.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12904866274339527690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-62876807930632825572008-08-26T18:51:00.000+03:002008-08-26T18:51:00.000+03:00"The Portuguese appear to be similar to Spaniards ..."The Portuguese appear to be similar to Spaniards and other Europeans. It is the Finns and Russians that appear to be most different from other Europeans in all the latest high-resolution autosomal published studies".<BR/><BR/>Spaniards have plenty of negroid-style dna as well but do not topple Portuguese. I shall also remind you of Cavalli-Sforzas estimations of the genetic differences of Negroid and Uralic-style gemones. The distance of English and Siberian Uralics is 66 (English 100) and English and Negroids 477. So 9% negroid impact will alter the structure of gemone way more than 9% Uralic, in terms of Europeannes rates obviously.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12904866274339527690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-10790761170969291532008-08-26T18:27:00.000+03:002008-08-26T18:27:00.000+03:00The Portuguese appear to be similar to Spaniards a...The Portuguese appear to be similar to Spaniards and other Europeans. It is the Finns and Russians that appear to be most different from other Europeans in all the latest high-resolution autosomal published studies.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-8068345985638275272008-08-26T18:00:00.000+03:002008-08-26T18:00:00.000+03:00But Dienekes, which direction is towards the Asian...<I>But Dienekes, which direction is towards the Asians in this study?</I><BR/><BR/>In PC2 of Bauchet et al. it was clear that Finns were positioned away from Europeans in the direction of Altaians.<BR/><BR/>This is also consistent with Li et al. who discovered that northern Russians were different from Europeans due to affiliation with East Asian and Native American groups.<BR/><BR/>So, there is no mystery Eastern European component differentiating Finnic or Finnic-admixed populations from other Europeans, but rather their unique East Eurasian admixture.<BR/><BR/><I>We have some Hungarians, who should have something like 10% Uralic influence, going by Cavalli-Sforza old studies. But they're not pulling anywhere.</I><BR/><BR/>Hungarians have very little East Eurasian Y-chromosomesor mtDNA. Predictably they are like other Europeans autosomally. Their Tat-C bearing Mongoloid <A HREF="http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/04/y-chromosomes-of-hungarians.html" REL="nofollow">ancestors</A> did not seem to have a big impact.<BR/><BR/><I>Anyway, AncestryByDna has come up with very interesting stuff about extra-european admixture rates of Europeans.</I><BR/><BR/>None of the published scientific studies has shown any significant East Eurasian admixture in Europeans other than the Finns or Russians. <BR/><BR/>Li et al. which is the most recent one on the matter, found 6% East Asian admixture in Russians and 0% in all other Europeans (Adygei from the Caucasus had 2%). <BR/><BR/>Bauchet et al. found no important Altaian component in most of Europe.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-85407247551313923702008-08-26T17:16:00.000+03:002008-08-26T17:16:00.000+03:00But Dienekes, which direction is towards the Asian...But Dienekes, which direction is towards the Asians in this study?<BR/><BR/>There are no Asians to tell us.<BR/><BR/>We have some Hungarians, who should have something like 10% Uralic influence, going by Cavalli-Sforza old studies. But they're not pulling anywhere.Polakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08791738703122670119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-21169224087798664122008-08-26T17:09:00.000+03:002008-08-26T17:09:00.000+03:00"Drift" doesn't explain why Finns deviate from Eur..."Drift" doesn't explain why Finns deviate from Europeans in the direction of Asians. Both Bauchet et al. and the older classical studies concur that Finns have ~1/10 of Asian genes. This component, lacking in all the other studied populations in Lao et al. is what differentiates Finns".<BR/><BR/>You sound like a broken parrot. What the authors of this 500k snp study said regarding Finns is very true indeed. Or are you suggesting that we should believe your Greek fairytales intead?<BR/><BR/>What do you mean with "significant"?<BR/>Based on Bauchet´s study we can concur that very few European population has Uralic admixture exceeding 5% indeed. Based on Cavalli´s estimations we can concur that the ancient Uralics were very close to caucasoids in terms of genome, nothing to compare to genetic distance with negroids and caucasoids f.e.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, AncestryByDna has come up with very interesting stuff about extra-european admixture rates of Europeans. I am sure we will know lot more in the future to the extend that your speculations will hardly matter much anymore.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12904866274339527690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-77470826441916648952008-08-26T14:36:00.000+03:002008-08-26T14:36:00.000+03:00Dienekes, seriously, this is an intra-continental ...<I>Dienekes, seriously, this is an intra-continental perspective. It's like that second part of the Bauchet study, once the Altaians were dropped.</I><BR/><BR/>Intra-continental variation occurs both because of intra-continental processes, and extra-continental influences.<BR/><BR/>Intra-continental variation in Africa, for example, is due both to different isolated African populations, but also extra-African invasions (e.g. the Amharas). Or, in Asia, both to long-term differentiation between e.g. South and East Asians, but also to migrations from the West.<BR/><BR/>Similarly, in Europe, intra-continental variation is generated by exogenous factors, e.g. the greater West Asian influence in Southern Europe because of the Neolithic, or the Siberian influence in northeastern Europe.<BR/><BR/><I>According to the authors of the study whom my friend over HBF contacted, the Finns stood apart thanks to isolation and drift just like the NY times article addressed, not because of Siberian admixture which BTW can be detected in every European population at various rates.</I><BR/><BR/>That is inaccurate, in Bauchet et al. the only population with significant Asian admixture were the Finns, just as the Russians were in Li et al. Most Europeans don't have any detectible Asian admixture.<BR/><BR/>"Drift" doesn't explain why Finns deviate from Europeans in the direction of Asians. Both Bauchet et al. and the older classical studies concur that Finns have ~1/10 of Asian genes. This component, lacking in all the other studied populations in Lao et al. is what differentiates Finns.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-89715651382480073132008-08-26T12:54:00.000+03:002008-08-26T12:54:00.000+03:00Siberian influence is a completely different issue...Siberian influence is a completely different issue not even addressed here.<BR/><BR/>But even some Finns are now going on about Siberians and Ugrics because it's just the more interesting explanation.<BR/><BR/>Somoene should finaly do a proper study, sampling several Finnish areas, Europeans, and North Asians. Because this is all getting really boring.Polakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08791738703122670119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-48825761206056186812008-08-26T12:25:00.000+03:002008-08-26T12:25:00.000+03:00Dienekes,little stubborn there, are we? According ...Dienekes,<BR/><BR/>little stubborn there, are we? <BR/><BR/>According to the authors of the study whom my friend over HBF contacted, the Finns stood apart thanks to isolation and drift just like the NY times article addressed, not because of Siberian admixture which BTW can be detected in every European population at various rates.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12904866274339527690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-91498285875797156612008-08-26T12:17:00.000+03:002008-08-26T12:17:00.000+03:00Dienekes, seriously, this is an intra-continental ...Dienekes, seriously, this is an intra-continental perspective. It's like that second part of the Bauchet study, once the Altaians were dropped.<BR/><BR/>The Finns don't need anything exotic to push them out that far. They're a small country, originating from a small number of isolated founders. A lot like the west coast Brits.<BR/><BR/>The distances on this PC plot are actually a lot less interesting then we think. They're more about people getting in on with their cousins (local breeding isolates) than an illustration of historic events and great migrations.Polakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08791738703122670119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-81707151697885084252008-08-26T11:31:00.000+03:002008-08-26T11:31:00.000+03:00There appear to be three main population isolates ...<I>There appear to be three main population isolates from which North/Central Europe was populated in ancient times...what I would today call the Atlantic, Central and Baltic clusters.</I><BR/><BR/>You are forgetting Siberia, the source of Finns' language, 50%+ of their patrilineages and ~1/10 of their autosomal genes.Dienekes Pontikoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01341303424873475334noreply@blogger.com