tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post7445894929256440930..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Migrationism strikes backDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger224125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-50311703883011919482011-07-25T12:07:02.972+03:002011-07-25T12:07:02.972+03:00"Which mutation is East African? Sudanese? We..."Which mutation is East African? Sudanese? West African? Does it really matter?" <br /><br />It will only depending on what you're trying to do. Maju has a great series of posts concerning mtDNA L starting here: <br /><br />http://leherensuge.blogspot.com/2010/03/reviewing-mtdna-l-lineages-notes-l0.html<br /><br />He has placed each haplogroup in its particular region as far as he was able at the time. I'm sure you'll find the posts interesting. He has L3e2b1 as Birkina Fasso and L3e2b2 as egypt and Oman. L3e2 is more widespread.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-21311074631318597482011-07-22T17:15:44.803+03:002011-07-22T17:15:44.803+03:00http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2148...http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2148-5-26.pdf<br /><br />The difference between African mt-DNA Hg L3 is ancestor to Asian M., are mutations We see M from L :<br /><br />Haplogroup L3-e2b – 16189C<br /><br />Haplogroup M – 16189?<br /><br />Haplogroup L3-e2b – 16320C<br /><br />Haplogroup M1 – 16320?<br /><br />Haplogroup L3-e2b – 16223T<br /><br />Haplogroup M18 – 16223?<br /><br />Haplogroup L3-e2b – 195C<br /><br />Haplogroup M0a – 195?<br /><br /><br />One test stated I was Sudanese. Another that I was East African.<br /><br />Just goes to show that the devil is in the details.<br /><br />Which mutation is East African? Sudanese? West African? Does it really matter?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-2739140126084114192010-04-09T08:10:15.416+03:002010-04-09T08:10:15.416+03:00http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/10/migrationism-...http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/10/migrationism-strikes-back.htmlRoopahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14290956329095815058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-77054366282895597462009-10-27T23:28:48.357+02:002009-10-27T23:28:48.357+02:00Maju,
I think mtDNA T2 seems to have a different ...Maju,<br /><br />I think mtDNA T2 seems to have a different distribution in Europe than T1/T1a - and also seems to be the vast majority of T in Europe.pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-34370215289035120332009-10-27T23:26:32.331+02:002009-10-27T23:26:32.331+02:00Ken,
I don't think they are.
I think there i...Ken,<br /><br />I don't think they are.<br /><br />I think there is a significant substrate of forager/hunter/gatherer.<br /><br />But I'm guessing the selection against dark skin was much more urgent, then selection for reduced tooth sized.<br /><br />BTW, my brother has huge teeth, and all my family have very deep rooted teeth, so much so that none of my baby teeth fell out, they all had to be pulled.pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-2791969527844234742009-10-27T21:38:52.447+02:002009-10-27T21:38:52.447+02:00Looks to me like having an Eastern origin, either ...Looks to me like having an Eastern origin, either Danubian (earliest aDNA T), from the Pitted Ware Baltic complex (two cases of T) and/or Kurgan (earliest aDNA T1, Central Asia), and then passed to Britain via Anglo-Saxons and Vikings surely. <br /><br />Megalithism should have spread from SW Europe and Scandinavia was it farthest reach by the NE. If it looks like it went from Scandinavia to Britain and has no connections farther south along the Atlantic, then it's probably not Megalithic-related. However one case of Scandinavian megalithic remains was also unspecified T.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-51811220663036420962009-10-27T21:27:06.688+02:002009-10-27T21:27:06.688+02:00Why have the Irish such big teeth if they are desc...Why have the Irish such big teeth if they are descended from a population long adapted to agriculture.Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01637818790791725275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-74735396982940358052009-10-27T19:11:42.493+02:002009-10-27T19:11:42.493+02:00Maju,
There are a few reasons I say Megalithism f...Maju,<br /><br />There are a few reasons I say Megalithism for mtDNA T1a:<br /><br />1. Althought the haplogroup originated in Egypt or surrounding areas - maybe Northern Africa as you nint - it is found at low frequencies today in the Middle East, and at lower frequencies in Scandinavia and Northern Europe. In Central Europe and Eastern Europe people with this haplogroup tend to be Ashkenazim - which I'm not.<br /><br />2. My T1a matches are some in Ireland, fewer in Britain, most in Northern Germany, Sweden and Finland.<br /><br />3. In the Isles, T1a is usually associated with Viking descent, and I am a descendant of Normans maternally.<br /><br />So I think some movement brought T1 or T1a to Northern Europe, where it dispersed from there. Maybe Megalithism brought it to Northern Germany/Southern Denamrk and via the Jasdorf culture or some such it spread??pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-92161448584476179402009-10-27T12:28:21.175+02:002009-10-27T12:28:21.175+02:00"R1b in the Isles is almost 100% R-L21."..."R1b in the Isles is almost 100% R-L21."<br /><br />Not according to Family treeDNA. Seems to be a lot of I in there in particular.<br /><br />http://www.familytreedna.com/public/IrelandHeritage/default.aspx?section=yresultsAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11000684388615334278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-53602467560738892472009-10-27T08:23:26.207+02:002009-10-27T08:23:26.207+02:00PConroy: I fear that your connections with Egypt o...PConroy: I fear that your connections with Egypt of all places is feeble. Megalithism? What does Egypt have to do with Megalithism? A single (yet very old) stone ring in Upper Egypt, near Sudan. <br /><br />I'd consider the known distribution of the clade (which is not well known to me) and ponder whether is a erratic (they are fantastic because you can imagine all sorts of personal migration dventures) or shows a pattern implying populations of some size. If so, which ones. It may be just some sort of Neolithic smaller lineage (I have that impression of T1 but admittedly is vague).Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-87092115291627842772009-10-27T08:05:04.276+02:002009-10-27T08:05:04.276+02:00Apologies for the double post. There is some kind...Apologies for the double post. There is some kind of lag problem.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11000684388615334278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-69956070791575238032009-10-27T08:02:32.740+02:002009-10-27T08:02:32.740+02:00"Of course La Tene craftsmanship reached its ..."Of course La Tene craftsmanship reached its highest expression in Ireland, so virtually no one doubts its connection with Ireland."<br /><br />Well the Swiss are supposed to be the best chocolate makers but that does not mean they are genetically or even significantly culturally linked to the Amerindians.<br /><br />And the Romans and Greeks took British copper and tin to make the best metalwork. Does that mean they were British?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11000684388615334278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-45942919045334609922009-10-27T07:13:41.384+02:002009-10-27T07:13:41.384+02:00I am not sure about T1a but is it found in NW Afri...<i>I am not sure about T1a but is it found in NW Africa or did it appear to have jumped directly from Egypt to Europe? I don't think that a direct interaction between Western Europe and Egypt could have happened at least before the Bronze Age (probably never).</i><br /><br />Well it could have been involved in Megalithism I guess?<br /><br />As regards direct contacts between there are architectural and written records to go on. The extreme South West of Ireland was never actively converted to Christianity, by St Patrick or any other missionary. In that area, on the rugged coast there are many anchorite type "beehive huts", similar to those used by Egyptian hermits in evidence. So it would seem that there was a connection between this are and Egypt - or at least the Eastern Med - in ancient times, which brought Christianity to the area. <br />This area is also the main area of Ireland where E1b1b1 is found.pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-70753961607743662662009-10-27T07:03:07.696+02:002009-10-27T07:03:07.696+02:00Maju,
I think, based on the sounds that Gaelic ha...Maju,<br /><br />I think, based on the sounds that Gaelic has both. The sentence below is what I'm thinking of:<br /><br />Chonaic mé, ni fhaca mé ( I saw, I didn't see)<br /><br />There you have the CH and the FH sounds.pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-54389797413728758672009-10-27T06:48:05.359+02:002009-10-27T06:48:05.359+02:00You may be onto something with this. Although I am...<i>You may be onto something with this. Although I am Y-DNA L21+ and M222+, I am mtDNA T1a. As you may know T1a is supposed to have its origin in the Nile Delta area, and spread Westward across the Mediterranean from there... maybe accompanied by E1b1b1??</i><br /><br />Well, I was thinking rather in NW Africa, where it seemed logical to me that "Cardial" E-V13 would meet "Berber" E-M81 before jumping to West Iberia (and beyond). <br /><br />I am not sure about T1a but is it found in NW Africa or did it appear to have jumped directly from Egypt to Europe? I don't think that a direct interaction between Western Europe and Egypt could have happened at least before the Bronze Age (probably never).Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-5259276658788372322009-10-27T06:42:22.069+02:002009-10-27T06:42:22.069+02:00I;m talking about the "CHHH" sounds...
...<i>I;m talking about the "CHHH" sounds</i>...<br /><br />Do you mean the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_velar_fricative" rel="nofollow">voiceless velar fricative</a> [x]like the "ch" of "loch"?<br /><br />If so, it's a relatively common sound, although not too many languages seem to use it at the end of words. <br /><br />However the Semitic guttural sound is a different sound (or rather array of similar sounds) which is more similar to a very deeply and strongly aspirated [h] sound and is represented by IPA as [H] in <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_epiglottal_fricative" rel="nofollow">its most standard form</a>. This sound and variants does not seem to be found in any European language out of the Caucasus and it is an extremely difficult one to learn in my opinion (specially for smokers).Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-43691976930120265942009-10-27T06:19:16.137+02:002009-10-27T06:19:16.137+02:00Maju said:
I am aware also of the peculiar Atlant...Maju said:<br /><i><br />I am aware also of the peculiar Atlantic spread of E1b1b1, which may be of North African origin with stop in Portugal. This could imply some sort of Berberic language area in the Megalithic Atlantic but should, IMO, include at least Portugal and NW Iberia at some point. <br /></i><br /><br />You may be onto something with this. Although I am Y-DNA L21+ and M222+, I am mtDNA T1a. As you may know T1a is supposed to have its origin in the Nile Delta area, and spread Westward across the Mediterranean from there... maybe accompanied by E1b1b1??pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-87498606311105756782009-10-27T06:06:56.546+02:002009-10-27T06:06:56.546+02:00Terry,
I;m talking about the "CHHH" sou...Terry,<br /><br />I;m talking about the "CHHH" sounds, like when you're "hocking a loogie".<br /><br />See this humorous T-Shirt:<br />http://www.zazzle.com/chanukah_hocking_a_loogie_t_shirt-235470765193251505pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-42967756320107238282009-10-27T05:58:44.834+02:002009-10-27T05:58:44.834+02:00Terry,
I speak Gaelic and German (also French and...Terry,<br /><br />I speak Gaelic and German (also French and Latin), and they are not alike at all. When I say guttural, I'm talking about sounds in the back of the throat - like clearing your throat - that are not to my knowledge present in any other European language, including Brythonic Celtic.pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-33145983533951633292009-10-27T05:55:43.344+02:002009-10-27T05:55:43.344+02:00Annie,
La Tene Celts brought Indo-European cultur...Annie,<br /><br />La Tene Celts brought Indo-European culture to Ireland, and their traces are left in DNA , language and cultural artifacts.<br /><br />You comment missed the point entirely. It's well known that Ireland was a major source of Silver and Gold to pre-classical Europe, yet I'm not talking about raw material exploitation. I'm talking about the final efflorescence of the La Tene culture, where it reached its apogee in Ireland.pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-71196423780184594802009-10-27T05:35:41.565+02:002009-10-27T05:35:41.565+02:00"people have heard me speaking Gaelic and tho..."people have heard me speaking Gaelic and thought it was either Hebrew or Arabic". <br /><br />I agree that it sounds gutteral, but it reminded me of German the first time I heard it. I'd add that I'm not very familiar with German at all.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-80556837992455617352009-10-27T05:34:38.090+02:002009-10-27T05:34:38.090+02:00I can't tell you the number oftimes people hav...<i>I can't tell you the number oftimes people have heard me speaking Gaelic and thought it was either Hebrew or Arabic</i>.<br /><br />I can accept that. But it can have a number of explanations, like a substrate influence not in Britain and Ireland but in Central Europe (maybe the Danubian language was related to Semitic after all). <br /><br />I am aware also of the peculiar Atlantic spread of E1b1b1, which may be of North African origin with stop in Portugal. This could imply some sort of Berberic language area in the Megalithic Atlantic but should, IMO, include at least Portugal and NW Iberia at some point. <br /><br />But all is highly speculative in any case.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-41109257956949051492009-10-27T05:30:52.921+02:002009-10-27T05:30:52.921+02:00"The Celts in Ireland would have conquered th..."The Celts in Ireland would have conquered the previous Neolithic inhabitants who may have spoken a language akin to Semitic". <br /><br />Have you got a reference for that? Interesting.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-90958604327967824792009-10-27T04:47:42.486+02:002009-10-27T04:47:42.486+02:00Maju,
I meant the language spoken by the original...Maju,<br /><br />I meant the language spoken by the original Neolithic settlers in Ireland would have to be gutteral, not Iberian etc...<br /><br />I can't tell you the number oftimes people have heard me speaking Gaelic and thought it was either Hebrew or Arabic.pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-85141255437970526662009-10-27T03:59:24.792+02:002009-10-27T03:59:24.792+02:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11000684388615334278noreply@blogger.com