tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post7436185256904793904..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Near Eastern origin of R1a in Ashkenazi LevitesDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-12839303772107778562016-03-26T00:27:05.584+02:002016-03-26T00:27:05.584+02:00@Soner
Your haplogroup frequency figures are all ...@Soner<br /><br />Your haplogroup frequency figures are all totally off. In Turkey R1a-Z93 is found in less than 5% of the population, not in your ridiculously high figure of 45-55%. In Greece J2 is found not in 70%(!) of the population but in 23% of it instead. In Turkey J2 is found in 24% of the population, so a little higher than the Greek frequency of J2. Get your numbers correct before making a theory. And no, the formation and spread of J2 is way older than modern ethnic groups, so we cannot associate it such a limited number of populations. BTW, not all of the dynasties you mention are Oghuz dynasties. Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-60298696634361249162014-03-08T04:47:16.466+02:002014-03-08T04:47:16.466+02:00Some might find this interesting http://peopleofa...Some might find this interesting http://peopleofar.wordpress.com/2012/01/14/the-six-pointed-star-of-armenia/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-72922214713070294742013-12-22T14:32:36.761+02:002013-12-22T14:32:36.761+02:00But is it found in Armenians as well as Kurds? I t...<i>But is it found in Armenians as well as Kurds? I think that an Anatolian origin is a safer bet.</i><br /><br />Armenians, Turks and Greeks do not carry M582 according to the results of the paper. So an Anatolian origin of M582 is very unlikely. Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-81751430447575698882013-12-22T04:16:58.384+02:002013-12-22T04:16:58.384+02:00Kurti, the reason R1a* keeps falling in academic s...Kurti, the reason R1a* keeps falling in academic studies is because newly discovered SNPs downstream of M417 are being added.<br /><br />BTW, the problem with an expansion of R1a from West Asia into Eastern Europe is that the two main clades of R1a obviously split in Europe: Northwest European CTS4385 and Eurasian Z645 (which includes the European Z283 and Eurasian Z93).Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-32029132915440036502013-12-22T04:12:17.947+02:002013-12-22T04:12:17.947+02:00But is it found in Armenians as well as Kurds? I t...But is it found in Armenians as well as Kurds? I think that an Anatolian origin is a safer bet.Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06029565423493357259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-76125177355464453442013-12-21T04:06:41.677+02:002013-12-21T04:06:41.677+02:00On a side note. I see that according to this study...On a side note. I see that according to this study the frequency of R1a* is around ~10% From all the other studies I have seen so far the frequency is always above, between 13-25%. The frequency likely was distorted by bad sampling.<br /><br />By the way not all R1a* among Kurds falls into the m17(m198) cluster.<br /><br />There seems to be some clades which predate the Indo-Iranian split.<br /><br />http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2013/10/r1a-discovered-among-yezidi-kurd.html<br /><br />Sorry for triple post.Kurtihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00818803833239507313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-40918411543090170552013-12-21T03:33:40.151+02:002013-12-21T03:33:40.151+02:00@AboutTime
Medes are under the Northwest Iranian ...@AboutTime<br /><br />Medes are under the Northwest Iranian category like Kurds.<br /><br />From what I have observed from ancient Iranian texts they were often put into one category with Gutians.<br /><br />Parthians were basically Medes (Northwest Iranian) with more Scythian admixture.Kurtihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00818803833239507313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-55270752161123984632013-12-21T03:20:07.355+02:002013-12-21T03:20:07.355+02:00Palisto from KurdishDNA Blog had this theory long...Palisto from KurdishDNA Blog had this theory long time ago. According to him the Ashkenazi Jews are originally from somewhere in Kurdistan and likely the name Ashkenaz derives from the word Ashkan which was the Iranian term for Parthians.<br />http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2013/12/ashkenazi-levite-jews-and-their-iranian.html#comment-formKurtihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00818803833239507313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-63292777394535290172013-12-21T01:37:20.863+02:002013-12-21T01:37:20.863+02:00Not an expert here, would need an Assyriologist or...<i>Not an expert here, would need an Assyriologist or Middle Eastern specialist to comment. AdygheChabadi, help?</i><br /><br />Adyghe Chabadi is not an expert either. Anyway, one does not need to be an expert in order to make reliable statements on such a simple matter.<br /><br /><i>I do know that Imperial/Official Aramaic was widespread enough that in Afghanistan, the Edicts of Ashoka were written in Aramaic (and Greek by the way) according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AsokaKandahar.jpg</i><br /><br />Official use of a language in a region in no way necessitates the existence of that language as a spoken language or as a mother tongue in that region. There are numerous examples in history to this phenomenon. <br /><br /><i>The Persian Empire was the sort of main progressive imperium at the time. The Achaemenids made a big deal out of uniting many nations into one big state (depicted at Persepolis etc.) Just before the adoption of Official Aramaic, Darius' Behistun Inscription was in Persian, Elamite, and Akkadian. All either outdated or too cliquey as languages, so Old Aramaic became the "Business English" of the day.</i><br /><br />Now you are beginning to make sense.<br /><br /><i>By the way, Azeris and Kurds are both Iranian speaking ethnic minorities, so the M582 in these populations again points to Proto-Iranian.</i><br /><br />No, Azeris are Turkic speakers, not Iranic speakers. But their present-day language has very little to do with their genetic origins (just as in Anatolian and Balkan Turks). <br /><br />Then again, all the evidence indicates that the M582 lineage originated in what is now Iran or somewhere very close-by. What is open to dispute is when it originated. If it originated before the Indo-Iranian migrations to what is now Iran, then it probably originated in a non-Indo-European-speaking community of what is now Iran. If it originated after the Indo-Iranian migrations to what is now Iran, then chances are high that it originated among Indo-Iranian speakers of what is now Iran. In both scenarios the place of origin is what is now Iran or somewhere very close-by. I favor the first (non-IE) scenario since Indo-Iranian languages are relatively new comers to what is now Iran.<br /><br /><i>Following that line of thought, the Achaemenid Cyrus the Great was called the Jewish annointed/moshiach, which is kind of interesting since it would halachically imply the Achaemenids were related to the Davidic line. Unless the Jewish understanding at the time was that Cyrus was the ben Joseph.</i><br /><br />The original meaning of the royal/religious term mashiach has nothing to do with the Davidic line or Jewishness, and its Bible usage for Cyrus is in the original meaning and thus has nothing to do with the Davidic line or any Jewish descent.<br /><br /><i>The Abraham-Brahmin idea looks like a stretch, unless there was some kind of Mede or Azeri link (old name: Arran with many mangled alternate pronunciations). On any other merits not worth considering, but the M582 line came from somewhere around here.</i><br /><br />Arran is the traditional name of the territory of what is now the Republic of Azerbaijan and is separate from the traditional Azerbaijan region, which largely corresponds to the territory of the Azerbaijan region of what is now the Republic of Iran. So the Republic of Azerbaijan should have been named as "the Republic of Arran" rather than as "the Republic of Azerbaijan". Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-90058935689696877742013-12-20T17:46:19.638+02:002013-12-20T17:46:19.638+02:00Interesting, the previous comment referred me to s...Interesting, the previous comment referred me to site that also suggests a Khazar origin of the Levite R1a gene:<br />https://sites.google.com/site/levitedna/origins-of-r1a1a-ashkenazi-levites/significance-of-the-bottleneck-in-the-r1a1a-ashkenazi-levite-populationGnarlodioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13040276756652061043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-11953799930027704512013-12-20T17:14:21.552+02:002013-12-20T17:14:21.552+02:00Elamites switched directly from the Elamite langua...<i>Elamites switched directly from the Elamite language to Persian with no Aramaic interlude. Aramaic was spoken in more western areas such as Mesopotamia and the Levant. Aramaic became one of the official languages of the Achaemenid Empire only after the incorporation of Mesopotamia and the Levant into the Achaemenid Empire, and those regions have never switched to Persian. So there was clearly a distinction between the Elamite/Persian-speaking territories and the Aramaic-speaking territories of the Achaemenid Empire, whose effects can still be seen in those territories.</i><br /><br />Not an expert here, would need an Assyriologist or Middle Eastern specialist to comment. AdygheChabadi, help?<br /><br />I do know that Imperial/Official Aramaic was widespread enough that in Afghanistan, the Edicts of Ashoka were written in Aramaic (and Greek by the way) according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AsokaKandahar.jpg<br /><br />The Persian Empire was the sort of main progressive imperium at the time. The Achaemenids made a big deal out of uniting many nations into one big state (depicted at Persepolis etc.) Just before the adoption of Official Aramaic, Darius' Behistun Inscription was in Persian, Elamite, and Akkadian. All either outdated or too cliquey as languages, so Old Aramaic became the "Business English" of the day. <br /><br />By the way, Azeris and Kurds are both Iranian speaking ethnic minorities, so the M582 in these populations again points to Proto-Iranian. <br /><br />Following that line of thought, the Achaemenid Cyrus the Great was called the Jewish annointed/moshiach, which is kind of interesting since it would halachically imply the Achaemenids were related to the Davidic line. Unless the Jewish understanding at the time was that Cyrus was the ben Joseph. <br /><br />The Abraham-Brahmin idea looks like a stretch, unless there was some kind of Mede or Azeri link (old name: Arran with many mangled alternate pronunciations). On any other merits not worth considering, but the M582 line came from somewhere around here.About Timehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09236048173229545609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-41152206313578028842013-12-20T06:36:25.684+02:002013-12-20T06:36:25.684+02:00Earlier this week, I went live with www.levitedna....Earlier this week, I went live with www.levitedna.org, a website devoted to R1a1a Ashkenazi Levites.<br /><br />The findings of Rootsi & Behar are consistent with Michal Milewski's hypothesis that R1a1a Ashkenazi Levites may be descended from a lineage of Nethinims of Iranian descent who arrived in Jerusalem from the Babylonian exile and were gradually incorporated into the Levite community. https://sites.google.com/site/levitedna/origins-of-r1a1a-ashkenazi-levites/theory-re-nethinim-originsJeff Wexlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08952316437019683366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-43935695927879546792013-12-20T05:15:35.619+02:002013-12-20T05:15:35.619+02:00Was Abraham R1a M582?
I have seen no evidence tha...Was Abraham R1a M582?<br /><br />I have seen no evidence that this R1a M582 is intrusive into the gene pool of the original Jews.<br /><br />The recent paper on Ashkenazi mtDNA, which showed that up to 95% of female AN lines are not from the Middle East, should warn us against any assumption that the majority of lines represent the original Jews. It may be that even less of the Y lines represent them.<br /><br />Indeed for all that we know this R1a M582 may be all that remains of the original Jewish population. All other Y lines (and possibly all mt lines) in modern Jews are intrusive, with admixture in the ME and elsewhere over thousands of years.<br /><br />The mythical Abraham may have been R1a M582. Of course that would imply that hardly any Jews are descended from him but that is what we would expect anyway after thousands of years of admixture and drift. Abraham probably drifted out long ago and left no living descendants.<br /><br />No Y line in Jews represents more than a small proportion of modern Jewish Y lines, let alone the various subclades. I see no reason why any other subclade than R1a M582 should represent Abraham and the original Jews.<br /><br />Indeed that theory would fit with the otherwise counter-intuitive ancient narratives that cast the original Jews as Iranic or Indo.<br /><br />I am not sure that we will ever get ancient DNA evidence sufficient to rule out that the Jewish male line is as admixed or even more admixed than the Jewish mt lines. The myth of the single male founder would imply that it is very highly admixed, given the multiplicity of Y lines.<br /><br />It is statistically very unlikely that Abraham has any living descendants. Modern Jews have few if any (probably no) genes that came from Abraham.<br /><br />Even if they did get a gene or two from him, which is highly unlikely, other people in the Middle East would likely also have those same genes. He was not an alien.apostateimpressionshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992369104954433139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-76346375916668517252013-12-20T02:16:48.829+02:002013-12-20T02:16:48.829+02:00"Persia" was a big empire with a small r...<i>"Persia" was a big empire with a small ruling elite that spoke an Iranian language. The very large main population (i.e., ancestors of today's "Persians") originally spoke Elamite and later Aramaic. In fact, the Persian Empire was the vehicle for the standardization of Official Aramaic. So we need to distinguish today's Persians from the Achaemenid elite 2500 years ago.</i><br /><br />Elamites switched directly from the Elamite language to Persian with no Aramaic interlude. Aramaic was spoken in more western areas such as Mesopotamia and the Levant. Aramaic became one of the official languages of the Achaemenid Empire only after the incorporation of Mesopotamia and the Levant into the Achaemenid Empire, and those regions have never switched to Persian. So there was clearly a distinction between the Elamite/Persian-speaking territories and the Aramaic-speaking territories of the Achaemenid Empire, whose effects can still be seen in those territories.<br /><br /><i>M582 shows up in Algerian Jews by the way. It means this is not just Ashkenazic and other possibilities should not be ruled out.</i><br /><br />It shows up only in Levites among Algerian Jews. It may well have come from Ashkenazi Levite migrants, as Levites were historically a quite migratory community of Jews.<br /><br /><i>I also noticed on the phylogeny, Ashkenazi Levite and Jewish (I guess non-Levite) R1a is part of a clade with Iberian and Assyrian M582.</i><br /><br />No Assyrians carry the R1a-M582 lineage according to the results of this paper. One Assyrian carries the R1a-Z2122(xM582), which means he carries the R1a-Z2122 lineage but not its M582 branch (x means "excluding" in haplogroup nomenclature, thus R1a-Z2122(xM582) means any branch of R1a-Z2122 excluding the M582 branch). As for the R1a-M582 in the Iberian individual, it is probably a remnant of a medieval Jewish (Levite?) or Iranian Muslim migrant in Iberia.<br /><br /><i>So what? It's a derived Z93 lineage. It doesn't sound completely impossible, if this lineage left from an early proto-indo-iranian population living in their ancestral homeland (then "evolved" in this little community to what it is now).</i><br /><br />Your scenario is not impossible but highly unlikely. The Z93 lineage probably originated in an area streching from what is now Iran to the southern parts of Central Asia (including what is now Afghanistan) well before the Proto-Indo-Iranian times.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-85141733043956719862013-12-19T23:01:24.320+02:002013-12-19T23:01:24.320+02:00I seem to lack any information on R1a-M582, and go...I seem to lack any information on R1a-M582, and google and other of my regular sources are shrugging their shoulders back at me. I'm trying to visualize the placement of R1a-M582 on a tree in my mind, but not knowing anything about M582 is leaving me effectively clueless ("R1a", by itself, is far too broad for me).<br /><br />Is there an alternate name for M582, or does anyone know which SNP this refers to? An rs id and change would be helpful (such as, eg., M207 is equivalent to a G at ). Also, what is ancestral to R-M582? It seems, from the text, that R-M198 is ancestral, but are there any between?Bushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705856794360652225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-49386916178151435142013-12-19T21:26:56.737+02:002013-12-19T21:26:56.737+02:00Bill Lipton: "the Ashkenazi Levites are linke...Bill Lipton: <i>"the Ashkenazi Levites are linked to the Brahmans of India and the original Aryas population"</i> <br /><br />Reality might have been a bit different and still partly similar. <br /><br />The Mitanni kingdom's Indo-aryan words and gods are known from around 1,400 BCE and interestingly, we know of a governor of a <b>city near Jerusalem</b> (Qiltu) around 1,300 BCE with an <b>Indo-aryan name</b>, <i>svardata</i> ("gift from the sun"). <br /><br />Maybe he arrived there with a group and some of their descendants (or the very descendants of this powerful man) entered the Jewish gene pool afterwards. <br />This lineage is well downstream of Z93, the (probably) "proto-indo-iranian" lineage, so it's plausible. <br /><br /><br />Onur: <i>"we did not observe it in South Asia, Central Asia or Southern Siberia"</i> <br /><br />So what? It's a derived Z93 lineage. It doesn't sound completely impossible, if this lineage left from an early proto-indo-iranian population living in their ancestral homeland (then "evolved" in this little community to what it is now).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-991415288305955232013-12-19T19:51:17.502+02:002013-12-19T19:51:17.502+02:00Davidski and Onur, points taken. So, the young age...Davidski and Onur, points taken. So, the young age of the Levite R1a M582 is young relative to other R1a branches. The question is, how old are those other branches? <br /><br />To give some historical dates: <br /><br />Mitanni 1400's BC<br />Medes 900's BC (anything earlier is a guess)<br />Achaemenids 500'c BC<br /><br />Israel/Judah 800's BC<br /><br />These dates mean that if the Levite R1a is Hebrew (dating to Israel/Judah) as the authors conclude, its origins would be closer to ancient Medes or Proto-Iranians. <br /><br />"Persia" was a big empire with a small ruling elite that spoke an Iranian language. The very large main population (i.e., ancestors of today's "Persians") originally spoke Elamite and later Aramaic. In fact, the Persian Empire was the vehicle for the standardization of Official Aramaic. So we need to distinguish today's Persians from the Achaemenid elite 2500 years ago. <br /><br />I should have said Proto-Iranian, not Indo-Iranian -- but still closer than the much later Persians. Looking for Proto-Iranians or even Achaemenids in Greater Iran is kind of like looking for Pilgrims in the USA, fast forward 2500 years. They might be there, but are hard to distinguish from everyone else. <br /><br />M582 shows up in Algerian Jews by the way. It means this is not just Ashkenazic and other possibilities should not be ruled out. Spain received a lot of refugees from Khorasan (eastern Iranian areas) during the Mongol conquests, by the way. <br /><br />I also noticed on the phylogeny, Ashkenazi Levite and Jewish (I guess non-Levite) R1a is part of a clade with Iberian and Assyrian M582. About Timehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09236048173229545609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-33823742012103002412013-12-19T18:34:27.651+02:002013-12-19T18:34:27.651+02:00Another objection to About Time's statements. ...Another objection to About Time's statements. According to the results of the paper, the R1a-M582 lineage peaks in frequency (excluding Jews) and has the highest diversity in Iran, and it is completely or almost completely absent in Europe, the Pontic-Caspian region, the Caucasus, Anatolia, the Armenian Highlands, the Levant, Mesopotamia, Central Asia, South Asia, south Siberia, Arabia and Egypt (probably also North Africa as a whole). These suggest that the R1a-M582 lineage has nothing to do with Proto-Iranics and much less with Proto-Indo-Iranians and is instead an autochthonous (pre-Iranic and pre-Elamic) lineage from what is now Iran. The fact that the R1a-M582 lineage is in very low frequencies (except specific Jewish groups, whose levels are surely due to founder effect and drift) even in the populations it peaks in explains its complete or almost complete absence in almost all of West, Central, North and South Eurasia.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-77135037577183277112013-12-19T17:26:42.164+02:002013-12-19T17:26:42.164+02:00It seems likely to me that R1a, R1b and Q haplogro...It seems likely to me that R1a, R1b and Q haplogroups all originated in the middle east. Hopefully we will get some more genetic data from ancient samples from the middle East in the near future.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01270554253475715322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-9318396895912421142013-12-19T17:11:57.560+02:002013-12-19T17:11:57.560+02:00Which means Levite R1a might be much closer to Pro...<i>Which means Levite R1a might be much closer to Proto-Indo-Iranian than any later group like Persians (who were mostly Aramaic speaking except for the elite by the way).</i><br /><br />Persians were Persian-speaking, not Aramaic-speaking. Aramaic speakers lived to the west of the Persian territories and were incorporated into the same realm as that of Persians when the Achaemenids, a Persian dynasty, and their state conquered the Aramaic-speaking lands. <br /><br /><i>I don’t see this new finding as refuting the view that the R1 influx came from the Khazars. If anything, it fills in some missing details.</i><br /><br />Have you actually read the paper? It says:<br /><br />"In contrast, among 2,164 samples from the Caucasus (211 R1a-M198), R1a-M582 was found in just one Nogay sample (Table 1)."<br /><br />And:<br /><br />"Among non-Jewish populations, the overall frequency of R1a-M582 was found to be 0.15% (22/15,138) and among R1a-M198 it was 0.81% (22/2,711) (Table 1). The geographic distribution of the haplogroup appears to be limited to West Eurasia, as we did not observe it in South Asia, Central Asia or Southern Siberia."<br /><br />The results of this paper are a huge blow to the Khazar hypothesis. No Khazar hypothesis supporter will be taken seriously anymore.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-64182210084401703132013-12-19T15:18:39.524+02:002013-12-19T15:18:39.524+02:00Not a shred of evidence that Ashkenazi Jewish popu...Not a shred of evidence that Ashkenazi Jewish populations have sny Turkic ancestry, unless the putative Khazar elite were themselves European or West Asian people living among Turkic nomads (Tokharians, or Alans? Which would bring us right back to Proto-Iranians).<br /><br />Where is the NE Asian autosomal % in Jewish populations? It doesn't exist. The Levite R1a doesnt even show up in the Caucasus.<br /><br />This study brings us to to northern Middle East. Even Mitannian origins would be much more plausible for the Levites, who in earliest times were The priestly elite. Torah mentions Levoiyim. Nothing about Cohanim in the five Books of Moses, lots and lots about Levites who were guardians of the tabernacle.About Timehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09236048173229545609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-2888364145927866622013-12-19T14:47:45.950+02:002013-12-19T14:47:45.950+02:00Golden {Turks and Khazars; Turkic-Iranian Contact....Golden {Turks and Khazars; Turkic-Iranian Contact...; Historical-Philological Inquiry...; <br />World of the Khazars...} and others {Dieter Ludwig} saw an East Iranian ethnogenesis to <br />the Ashina if not a portion of the Khazars. As far as Ashkenazi vs "non-Ashkenazi" i.e. <br />Sephardic Jews, run a fIBD on Ashkenazi/Sephardic-Bulgarian {Behar's data-set} and see <br />how close the inference is.Sgt. Gilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16093774878169751410noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-89172202352660176792013-12-19T12:53:44.593+02:002013-12-19T12:53:44.593+02:00"Which means Levite R1a might be much closer ..."Which means Levite R1a might be much closer to Proto-Indo-Iranian than any later group like Persians (who were mostly Aramaic speaking except for the elite by the way)."<br /><br />I really doubt it. M582 is way below Z93 on the R1a phylo tree, and check out the Z93* Persian Iranian here. He's looking rather proto-Indo-Iranian IMO.<br /><br />http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/9505/8q7z.pngDavidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-47069539004945046602013-12-19T12:33:59.641+02:002013-12-19T12:33:59.641+02:00The R1a-M582 among Ashkenazi Jews represents a lim...The R1a-M582 among Ashkenazi Jews represents a limited recent conversion of, most likely, Iranics of some sort from what is now Iran or surrounds. That's pretty much it.<br /><br />If the person who started the Levite M582 line was indeed a Khazar rather than an Iranian, then obviously the Khazar hypothesis needs to be revised, and perhaps called the Khazar one off conversion.<br /><br />The paper is open access, so you can see how little diversity there is in that lineage. And there's nothing amazing about it, because it's a fairly young subclade under the Z93 mutation. In other words, it's typical Indo-Iranian R1a.Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-64297032944013772112013-12-19T06:52:46.496+02:002013-12-19T06:52:46.496+02:00I don’t see this new finding as refuting the view ...I don’t see this new finding as refuting the view that the R1 influx came from the Khazars. If anything, it fills in some missing details.<br /><br />To refresh your memory, the Khazars were a group of 2-3,000 (estimated by genetic researchers) royalty of the Khazar empire who inexplicably converted to Judaism starting around 800CE. Being the elite of their society meant they infiltrated the higher caste of Jews, the Levites, whose religious role had been in decline for centuries. This because the truly elite, the kohanim, were largely monolithic and allowed no converts into their patrilineal gene pool. But you could be a Levite by having a Jewish mother, thus the Levite status was open to the sons of converts.<br /><br />Genetic evidence shows the Levite R1 gene to have originated in a very tight family, adding evidence that the Khazar royalty intentionally targeted the Levite clan. Compare that to the more variable R1 of the northern Levant, suggesting that non-royalty castes of the collapsing Khazar empire fled over the following centuries and were absorbed into the southern regions.<br /><br />As a personal observation I believe that the abdication of the Khazar royalty occurred as a result of the rise of Islam. That the Khazar royalty read the writing on the wall and understood the unifying power of religion. They didn't want to be forcibly converted to Islam, so they surreptitiously converted to Judaism entering the gene pool at a high level. This is supported by evidence that the R1 gene spread through Europe rapidly by exploiting the greater mobility and social support Levites enjoyed.<br /><br />Nowadays the Levite clan is almost extinct from the religious perspective. Nobody will jump up in the synagogue and claim to be a Levite. So 1,200 the same thing had happened, the Levites had abandoned their historical religious role and left a vacuum. And that vacuum was filled by the Khazars.<br /><br />Some information taken from this page:<br />http://jogg.info/11/coffman.htmGnarlodioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13040276756652061043noreply@blogger.com