tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post7419963403818116843..comments2014-04-24T22:39:23.611+03:00Comments on Dienekesâ€™ Anthropology Blog: Mathematical structure of Platonic dialogues (?)Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-53154478145389987812010-07-19T21:11:03.506+03:002010-07-19T21:11:03.506+03:00"The key is the statistical evidence."
..."The key is the statistical evidence."<br /><br />Statistical evidence wouldn't distinguish between honed intuition and intentional form.<br /><br />Intentional form would be better shown by exact correspondences, particularly if they actually differ from some more natural measure, like recitation time for the same passages, or by contortions in composition (e.g. regrouping ideas to unnatural break points) to fit the form.Andrew Oh-Willekehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02537151821869153861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-55085582629940663522010-07-16T03:05:18.735+03:002010-07-16T03:05:18.735+03:00"Could it be that as the Timaean demiurge loo..."Could it be that as the Timaean demiurge looked at the eternal model of number and proportion to fashion the universe as an expression of a musical scale, so did Plato, as the demiurge of his philosophical universe?"<br /><br />Sure. I'd also like to see the analysis to support J.B. Kennedy's proposal.<br /><br />Whether or not Plato did this, what interests me is that Plato and his contemporaries had grabbed onto the fact that frequency mattered beyond just music. They headed in the direction of inserting numerology in their writings, which is rather inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. Still, they (and we) were on our way to developing a framework for understanding frequency and harmony. <br /><br />I wonder not so much how far they got with literature, but how far they got with architecture, astronomy, and water in applying this idea.Marniehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-8521115804857075302010-07-15T18:59:08.314+03:002010-07-15T18:59:08.314+03:00In support of this idea, there is quite a bit of i...<i>In support of this idea, there is quite a bit of intentional, almost numerological structure to modern screen plays. There are places in TV and movie scripts where climaxes and subclimaxes are expected in industry formulas adhered to rather slavishly down to plus or minus factions of a minute. </i><br /><br />Ancient drama had its own mathematical structure (acts, chorals, etc). I don't find it unbelievable that just as modern screenwriters compute the time of a movie as about a minute/script page, the ancient dramatists whose plays were performed in religious festivals must've organized their material temporally in some way.<br /><br />Plato was a poet before he famously burned his poems and became a student of Socrates, and he would be well versed in the mathematical intricacies of Greek poetry (syllables per verse, verses per act, etc.). Given his own mathematical bent, it's not unlikely that he might have done something like what Kennedy proposes. <br /><br />Would he have thought it worthwhile to go into all that trouble? It's hard to tell, but many of the dialogues have substantial internal cross-references ("we will get to this later", or "as we said") and evidences of structure, so it's a good guess that they were planned and were not written spontaneously.<br /><br />The key is the statistical evidence.Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-24718279700025541122010-07-13T00:49:06.985+03:002010-07-13T00:49:06.985+03:00Here's a nice discussion paper:
Means, Meanin...Here's a nice discussion paper:<br /><br />Means, Meaning, and Music: Pythagoras, Archytas, and Plato (Scott Makeig)<br /><br />http://www.ex-tempore.org/means/means.htmMarniehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-54065610575734324332010-07-13T00:41:17.506+03:002010-07-13T00:41:17.506+03:00Andrew,
Here is an article you might find intere...Andrew, <br /><br />Here is an article you might find interesting about the history of musical tuning:<br /><br /> http://www.slate.com/id/2250793/Marniehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-8395701805810740982010-07-12T17:09:43.652+03:002010-07-12T17:09:43.652+03:00In support of this idea, there is quite a bit of i...In support of this idea, there is quite a bit of intentional, almost numerological structure to modern screen plays. There are places in TV and movie scripts where climaxes and subclimaxes are expected in industry formulas adhered to rather slavishly down to plus or minus factions of a minute. <br /><br />In TV, this is, in part, a product of the rather mundane need for commercial breaks, but a good share of it is just applies psychology. The sense of what worked developed long before the formulas were canonized. But, someone actually did write a book spelling the formula out, and once that was done, it was followed slavishly by the major studios and has become a formalistic rule that greatly enhances the chances that a script will be produced if followed.<br /><br />In the same way, the Golden ratio was used intuitively in art and architecture long before it was formally recognized as a design principle, and the rules of musical harmony and form (e.g. Sonatas, the Blues) were derived from examples of great composers before they were taught as formalistic rules for musical composition.<br /><br />While Plato would be a more likely figure to have some hidden form than many, given his philosophy, and much of Greek writing at the time was explicitly lyric and fit a poetic structure (in part of meomonic reasons), it is easy to find coincidences. A null hypothesis of an internal structure driven by rhetorical intuition rather than conscious mathematical structure seems at least as plausible.Andrew Oh-Willekehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02537151821869153861noreply@blogger.com