tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post7277395685840226918..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Y chromosomes and mtDNA of Tharus from NepalDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-57032835114963406042015-03-15T03:08:51.772+02:002015-03-15T03:08:51.772+02:00Being a Tharu from eastern Nepal and social anthro...Being a Tharu from eastern Nepal and social anthropologist trying to understand my own selfless self. Thanks guys for explaining my genomic codes.Sakyasinghhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07364053469387187039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-24745951805262424252009-07-07T00:08:45.804+03:002009-07-07T00:08:45.804+03:00"These are similar to 0.505 for South India o..."These are similar to 0.505 for South India or 0.475 for Southern Pakistan and 0.426 for West India in the paper by Mirabal et al. I linked to."<br /><br />Indicating an origin in the plateau rather than northern India.<br />This is consistent with the mtDna data (at least for U*).<br /><br />"Regarding 49a,f/TaqI Ht11 ONLY in India, with a refernce to a 2001 article which did not show it, it cannot be serious." <br /><br />Very true. It appears to be a misstatement since "high incidence of 49a,fHt11 seemed to be typical of the East European populations ... Actually, in East Europe, all the derivatives of the 49a,f Ht 11 were observed (9 vs 6 in the “Balkans,” 4 in the “Middle East,” 1 in India, and 2 in West Europe). <br /><br />"How R1a1 got to Europe then, presumably from India?"<br /><br />As we get more data, the locus seems to shift east & south, and my guess is that is where the population withdrew in the last ice age, ie, even northern India was relatively empty.APhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02742840337738243556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-86062241564702331882009-07-06T23:41:49.949+03:002009-07-06T23:41:49.949+03:00Anatole,
Thanks for the succinct reply!
This is ...Anatole,<br /><br />Thanks for the succinct reply!<br /><br />This is very interesting. So where do you suppose the IE R1a1 homeland was, is it the Balkans or Central Asia??pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-57683440449603511092009-07-06T22:29:45.880+03:002009-07-06T22:29:45.880+03:00Yes pconroy, they are FROM outside, far FROM India...Yes pconroy, they are FROM outside, far FROM India, brought TO India. <br /><br />The thing is that the European (east and west) R1a1 haplotypes are very similar (practically indentical) with the "Indo-European" Indian R1a1, in all 12-, 25, 37- and 67-marker haplotypes. Indian R1a1 25-, 37- and 67-marker haplotypes taken from YSeach and from the "Indian project" present a quite uniform haplotype tree pointing at a common ancestor who lived a few centuries later than that of the Russian-Ukrainian-Polish-German-Scandinavian-"nameit"-Central Asian R1a1 common ancestor (though, technically speaking, within the margin of error). That ancestral haplotype was, undoubtedly, brought to India by the R1a1 tribe which was called (then or later) the Aryans, and which had closed the loop (made a bridge) between Europe and India (and Iran) with the Indo-European languages. In fact, the Aryan languages. The age of the common ancestor in Russia-Ukraine and in India I have listed above. <br /><br />The ancient South-Indian R1a1 haplotypes are quite different from the Indo-European ones. Their (ancient) base (ancestral) haplotype has DYS19 = 17 (not 15-16), DYS391 = 9 (not 10-11), DYS389-1 = 14 (not 13), DYS389-2 = 18-19 (not 17, as typically in Europe and IE-Indian haplotypes). They are different, period. And they have nothing to do with the IE R1a1 haplotypes, except of belonging to the same haplogroup. <br /><br />Therefore, all attemplt to reject the "IE pathway" using those ancient Indian haplotypes are fruitless. They are kind of apples and oranges. <br /><br />Furthermore, those ancient Indian R1a1 haplotype do not have an Indian origin. Wait for the paper I had referred to.Anatole Klyosovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08313572696857788999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-21310538783946992422009-07-06T21:57:05.248+03:002009-07-06T21:57:05.248+03:00Yes, Conroy. We aren't "British". So...Yes, Conroy. We aren't "British". Sometime we do some mistake.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-88620767938374594962009-07-06T20:14:36.592+03:002009-07-06T20:14:36.592+03:00Anatole,
...from outside TO India?Anatole,<br /><br />...from outside TO India?pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-40696194965091288272009-07-06T19:02:46.561+03:002009-07-06T19:02:46.561+03:00Yes, indeed, var = 0.291 (N=114, years 14000+/-310...Yes, indeed, var = 0.291 (N=114, years 14000+/-3100 bp) is from Sengupta (Indians pooled), cited by the authors. In the paper: <br /><br />Tharus, N=14, var = 0.399, 16600+/-3900 bp, which is within margins of error with the Sengupta data (see above), which in turns gives 4600 ybp for the Indians (after conversion of the "Zhivotovsky coefficient".<br /><br />The high variance is for two small groups, <br />A.Pradesh, N=8, var = 0.988, 37700+/-21500 ybp, and<br />Tharus E, N=5, var = 0.500, 20300+/-9100 ybp.<br /><br />The small groups leave some doubts on the data obtained, paricularly when the margin of error brings them back to the Sengupta estimates and then again to 4,000+ ybp for R1a1 in India. By the way, Chenchu R1a1 gives 3000 and 325 ybp (the last is a series of practically indentical, hence, very "young" haplotypes, from the 17th century).<br /><br />Nevertheless, I can accept that there are two sets of R1a1 haplotypes in India: one is of >7-10,000 ybp, another was brought by the Aryans, of about 4200+/-500 ybp. The Russian-Ukrainian (and Central Asian) R1a1 are of 4850+/-500 ybp (a common ancestor). This is a way to explain the apparent contradiction between the two sets. However, both sets were brought from outside from India. I have data supporting this concept (to be published).Anatole Klyosovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08313572696857788999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-43780172631234121142009-07-06T08:08:49.659+03:002009-07-06T08:08:49.659+03:00Probably India has had the same destiny of Western...Probably India has had the same destiny of Western Europe: an ancient presence of R1a1 in India and of R1b1b2 in Western Europe and a late migration from South Russia of Indo-European speaking peoples who have little influenced the Genetics. This is said in the paper and this I think is probably the truth.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-28361574918430772232009-07-06T02:34:32.856+03:002009-07-06T02:34:32.856+03:00No, variance in the Indians studied in this paper ...No, variance in the Indians studied in this paper is 0.45, and in Tharus from Eastern Terai it is 0.5 (albeit a very small sample). These are similar to 0.505 for South India or 0.475 for Southern Pakistan and 0.426 for West India in the paper by Mirabal et al. I linked to. These are much higher than Poland, Ukraine or any Russian location. <br /><br />Y-STR variance, for what it's worth, shows no support for an origin of all South Asian R1a1 Y-chromosomes from Eastern Europe.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-91049211298843382192009-07-06T02:15:08.576+03:002009-07-06T02:15:08.576+03:00>The mutation rate they use is not what's i...>The mutation rate they use is not what's interesting, but the fact that the STR variance is greater here than in eastern Europe."<br /><br />What do you call "fact" here? The authors cited that the "variation" of R1a1 among 114 individuals in India equals to 0.291, and among 8 Andra Pradesh individuals to 0.988. No comparison to Europe. A huge deviation of "37.7+/-21.5 KY in the last case. In India it is 14+/-3.1 KY, which after dividing by 3 (from the Zhivotovsky coefficient) gives its normal 4600+/-1000 ybp.In fact, using 25- and 37-marker haplotypes, it is 4300+/-560 ybp in India. No haplotypes are provided, hence, impossible to verify the data in the paper. Regarding 49a,f/TaqI Ht11 ONLY in India, with a refernce to a 2001 article which did not show it, it cannot be serious. How R1a1 got to Europe then, presumably from India?Anatole Klyosovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09562969047293724366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-59062214805001015192009-07-05T23:00:29.704+03:002009-07-05T23:00:29.704+03:00The latest Y-STR diversity estimates (incl. this p...<i>The latest Y-STR diversity estimates (incl. this paper for Tharus from Eastern Terai and Indians) do suggest a substantially greater antiquity of R1a1 in the Indian subcontinent than in most of West Eurasia...</i><br /><br />Some of us have argued that and a generally very old dispersal of major Y-DNA groups from northern India/ Pakistan/ adjacent regions into Europe for a while. Which also means a very old age of these, of around or more than 40,000 years. <br /><br />I believe mutation rates once I see a number of them derived from very clear, known migrations, timings, and fitted to reasonable population models. Australia comes to mind, as do the Americas. Until then, I trust archeology and the "simplest" migration models better than anything else.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-65781140333844286902009-07-05T22:12:14.660+03:002009-07-05T22:12:14.660+03:00The mutation rate they use is not what's inter...The mutation rate they use is not what's interesting, but the fact that the STR variance is greater here than in eastern Europe. It does not seem at present at all that South Asian R1a1 variation is a subset of eastern Europe.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-34352365161388753972009-07-05T16:57:37.746+03:002009-07-05T16:57:37.746+03:00It has be noted that they use the mutation rate of...It has be noted that they use the mutation rate of 0,00069 you usually define "infamous" and re R1a1 they say that probably it is very ancient in India from Central Asia but probably an Indo-European R1a1 has entered India in the times and the modalities we know. And I think this very likely.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.com