tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post7105047577072145317..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Estimating admixture proportions and dates with ADMIXTOOLS (Patterson et al. 2012)Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-61444442965369837842012-12-04T12:59:45.873+02:002012-12-04T12:59:45.873+02:00"What if much of the European neolithic was i..."What if much of the European neolithic was indigenous Balkan? Or part of it (Cardium) was not, but during migration became mostly old Mediterranean? In that case, there was little replacement in the south.<br /><br />Mesolithic Balkans and Italians and Iberians could have been mostly rather similar (as they are today, except for more recently introduce W and SW Asian components).<br /><br />If true, there was actually little neolithic replacement in the Mediterranean Europe. "<br /><br />See also the talk by Christina Papageorgopoulou, recently covered by Dienekes:<br /><br />http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/12/talk-by-christina-papageorgopoulou-on.htmleurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-61935296963689440792012-09-10T03:03:01.960+03:002012-09-10T03:03:01.960+03:00First, the Uygur (790 ± 60 year ago) shows a very ...<i>First, the Uygur (790 ± 60 year ago) shows a very good fit, and interesting things were happening in Central Asia in the 13th century.</i><br /><br />As conceded by the authors of the paper, that date is too recent and so is not a good fit (as is clear from ancient genetics, history, ancient anthropology and archaeology). I think the major reason why they estimated the timing of the Caucasoid-Mongoloid admixture of Uyghurs wrong is that the Caucasoid-Mongoloid admixture of Uyghurs occurred over a period of thousands of years, which involved many and punctuated major admixture episodes.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-32123849669341073722012-09-09T14:38:18.707+03:002012-09-09T14:38:18.707+03:00What if much of the European neolithic was indigen...What if much of the European neolithic was indigenous Balkan? Or part of it (Cardium) was not, but during migration became mostly old Mediterranean? In that case, there was little replacement in the south.<br /><br />Mesolithic Balkans and Italians and Iberians could have been mostly rather similar (as they are today, except for more recently introduce W and SW Asian components). <br /><br />If true, there was actually little neolithic replacement in the Mediterranean Europe.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-74588825686405318302012-09-08T16:29:49.581+03:002012-09-08T16:29:49.581+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-63480017441457893382012-09-08T12:40:15.832+03:002012-09-08T12:40:15.832+03:00The current paper does not deal with the issue of ...The current paper does not deal with the issue of African gene flow into Sardinia at all. The levels of that gene flow in the cited paper were estimated using f4 ancestry estimation, using statistics of the form f4(CEU, Sardinian, East Eurasian, African) under the assumption that East Asians were an outgroup to Europeans; that assumption is now shown to be false, and hence the estimated proportions of African-related ancestry are not robust.<br /><br />The non-robustness of these proportions can be shown in two different ways: by either showing how they are inflated when the East Eurasian "outgroup" is one most similar to the population contributing genes to north Europe, and by masking out all segments of having even a remote possibility of African admixture in Sardinians.<br /><br />http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/08/scrubbing-sardinians.htmlDienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-16051920267577692012012-09-08T11:47:48.145+03:002012-09-08T11:47:48.145+03:00What is also worth noting is that the authors agai...What is also worth noting is that the authors again confirmed Moorjani' results about sub-Saharan gene flow from Africa into Sardinia :<br /><br />"There is some modest level of sub-Saharan (probably west African-related) gene flow from Africa into Sardinia as is shown by analyses in MOORJANI et al. (2011)." (p.44)raffi17https://www.blogger.com/profile/16292819479004954330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-54826679041915270062012-09-08T03:19:42.766+03:002012-09-08T03:19:42.766+03:00"The most striking finding is a clear signal ..."The most striking finding is a clear signal of admixture into northern Europe, with one ancestral population related to present day Basques and Sardinians, and the other related to present day populations of northeast Asia and the Americas."<br /><br />I have suspected this for a couple of years, not just because of Hg. N but due my brief immersion in the Viking black metal scene. Odin and his aspects are rarely depicted in the modern iconography with striking Mongolianism. The snow is a bit deeper, the accompanying wolves are beefier with longer hair and Odin's dress is furier and his horns more rounded. Brief research revealed commonalities between historical Germanic and Siberian paganism. Overall, the artistic symbolism implies an ancient ecological and cultural continuum in north Eurasia stretching westward into Scandinavia and its surrounding environs. My guess has been that a north Eurasian hunter-gatherer continuum reformed from the paeleolithic remnants during the Mesolithic and continued through the Bronze Age. Hence the East Eurasian-like shift in north Europeans. The rest is Neolithic and Bronze Age from the Near East. Intuitive and even superficial but possibly bang on. : )apostateimpressionshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992369104954433139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-31894945670650263752012-09-08T02:37:06.853+03:002012-09-08T02:37:06.853+03:00It is worth pointing out a sound ecological reason...It is worth pointing out a sound ecological reason that Scandinavia should be heavily admixed between a Northern and Sardinian component, while Spain is not so admixed.<br /><br />The technological package associated with the Sardinian genetic profile included plant and animal domesticates that gave the Sardinian farmers a decisive edge over "Northern" hunter-gatherers, but that edge was a function of how competitive the farmer and herder package was with the hunter-gatherer package.<br /><br />Spain's climate is reasonably close to the source climate of the plant and animal domesticates that the Sardinian type people introduced, so the edge provided by that package in Spain was decisive.<br /><br />Scandinavia was a marginal package for the plant and animal domesticates (mostly because it is colder) that the Sardinian type people introduced, and the Scandinavians may have placed a higher degree of reliance of fishing. Also fishing is really intermediate in staying power between farming and hunter-gather food production. For example, while the non-nomadic lifestyle and coincident pottery development arrived only with farming and herding in the Fertile Crescent, in East Asia, fishing civilizations developed pottery first and farming second. It is quite possible that Scandinavian hunter-gatherers may have been more fishing based relative to terrestrial food sources than Spanish hunter-gatherers. It is also possible that Spanish hunter-gatherers simply had someplace acceptable to flee to from the incoming Sardianian type migrants as evidenced perhaps by the hg V levels that Spain and Scandinavia share, while Scandinavians were cornered. The pressures felt by cornered relicts (admittedly admixed and adapted somewhat by then) from outsiders could help explain politically and sociologically why Scandinavians would have transitioned from a hunting-gathering mode to an aggressive raiding mode during the Viking era. Like Eminem, for them, failure wasn't an option and they did what they felt they had to do to survive as a people in the face of unfair competition.<br /><br />Historically, after Scandinavia first transitioned to farming and herding when the climate was favorable to that, it then "reverted" to hunting-gathering-fishing-raiding when the local climate became unfavorable for farming and herding the European domesticate package, only to go back to farming and herding again when the climate changed again and as the farming and herding techniques became more sophisticated.<br /><br />In contrast, once Spain transitioned from hunting and gathering to farming and herding, it never reverted to hunting and gathering.<br /><br />The transitional periods when hunting and gathering and fishing were roughly equal in productiveness to farming and herding (something that much of Europe never experienced, since the technology was developed in the Near East and then leap frogged in an already refined and optimized for the climate when it arrived in Western Europe) is a natural juncture for admixture.<br /><br />In the same vein, models of relative proportions of language speakers in a bilingual community show that the relative economic prestige and benefits of membership in the respective linguistic groups is one of the main drivers of language shift in one direction or the other. Admixture is going to be greatest when it isn't clear at the moment which group will turn out to be more prosperous.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-63628521067084096142012-09-08T02:04:59.257+03:002012-09-08T02:04:59.257+03:00Wow this truly is exciting! So could we chalk up w...Wow this truly is exciting! So could we chalk up what the main European Dodecad K12b components may represent then?<br /><br />North European=Admixture between Mesolithic and Neolithic Europeans component<br /><br />Mediterranean=Neolithic European component<br /><br />West Asian=Late Neolithic or Bronze Age West Asian origin component<br /><br />Would any of this make sense?jackson_montgomery_devonihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17553257488930856466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-83391615079944066772012-09-08T00:52:42.233+03:002012-09-08T00:52:42.233+03:00Some of this makes no sense whatsoever, like Sardi...Some of this makes no sense whatsoever, like Sardinians being pure because they descended from Neolithic farmers.<br /><br />Dont the most isolated Sardinians of La Barbagia bear the highest frequency of Y C Hg I-M26 and mtDNA Hg U ??? Arent those believed to be pre-Neolithic? mooreisbetterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17522884275516185288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-59111180406185399782012-09-07T23:19:47.075+03:002012-09-07T23:19:47.075+03:00Could the lack of West Asian component in this Bro...<i>Could the lack of West Asian component in this Bronze age "Thracian" be due a possible significant intrusion of West Asian admixture in South Eastern Europeans be to migrations during the Macedonian or Roman/Byzantine Empire times?</i><br /><br /><br />We don't know what he lacked/had. Sardinians would still be the closest population if he e.g., had mostly "Med" ancestry with say, 10% North European or 10% West Asian, or even 10% of each.<br /><br />While what you're suggesting may explain _some_ of the West Asian component in the Balkans, it can't be the only explanation, because ~10% West Asian also occurs in the far reaches of Europe in places like Ireland and Norway.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-86131065618271448652012-09-07T23:15:38.868+03:002012-09-07T23:15:38.868+03:00Could the lack of West Asian component in this Bro...Could the lack of West Asian component in this Bronze age "Thracian" be due a possible significant intrusion of West Asian admixture in South Eastern Europeans be to migrations during the Macedonian or Roman/Byzantine Empire times?<br /><br />Arch Hadeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00679577049261430513noreply@blogger.com