tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post7071102449053674975..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Progress in the Y-chromosome phylogenyDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-55855171067440155642013-11-13T16:07:55.726+02:002013-11-13T16:07:55.726+02:00Prof. Francalacci pointed me to pages 7 and 24 of ...Prof. Francalacci pointed me to pages 7 and 24 of his paper's Supplement which addresses the matter of Otzi. He mentions difficulty reading the ancient sample, but concludes it to be consistent with his chronology.<br /><br />Despite the reading difficulty, one can imagine an extrapolation to derive a mutation rate by comparison, but the paper makes no mention of such.James Dow Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15528838323198213151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-50698684606523313522013-11-01T20:37:30.879+02:002013-11-01T20:37:30.879+02:00Has not Otzi the Snowman had his complete Y-chromo...Has not Otzi the Snowman had his complete Y-chromosome sequenced? Since his age is known, wouldn't comparison with modern G2a's allow the mutation rate to be read directly?<br /><br />I was delighted to read the Francalacci paper, though I agree with you that "whether the current Sardinian population is descended from that initial expansion or from a later successful founder remains to be seen."James Dow Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15528838323198213151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-22039448565836878752012-09-09T06:41:49.946+03:002012-09-09T06:41:49.946+03:00"Haplogroup DE is group of 'southern'..."Haplogroup DE is group of 'southern' Out-of-Arabians heading east (D) or west (E)" <br /><br />But it is difficult to make a case for D having moved east through South Asia. Many Y-DNA haplogroups survive in South Asia (both C-derived and F-derived) but the D haplogroups found there today (D1) obviously came from further east. It is unlikely that a single Y-DNA haplogroup would be the only one to suffer such extreme extinction through the expansion of later Y-DNAs. terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-52128994314516068032012-09-08T20:40:28.140+03:002012-09-08T20:40:28.140+03:00"Haplogroup DE is group of "southern&quo..."Haplogroup DE is group of "southern" Out-of-Arabians heading east (D) or west (E); "Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-75298922807549016322012-09-08T19:31:47.739+03:002012-09-08T19:31:47.739+03:00If DE and E (?) came from Eurasia, then how come A...If DE and E (?) came from Eurasia, then how come Africans don't have neandertal?<br /><br />Do you think E entered Africa before the proto eurasians mixed with neandertal?princenuadhahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02165977957244158593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-84737843958360792362012-09-07T06:36:46.261+03:002012-09-07T06:36:46.261+03:00"Nobody disputes that a small subset of all t..."Nobody disputes that a small subset of all types of E, O and R1b make up most of the total from this hgs in Africa, China and Western Europe respectively". <br /><br />Not really true in the case of O and China. Virtually all basal O3 haplogroups are found in the Han, although many would argue they have been co-opted into that group. Where O3 is found in non-Han a case can easily be made that its expansion merely pre-dates the Han expansion by a two or three thousand years, and represents an earlier Neolithic expansion than that of the Han. O1 is present in South China but its greatest expansion is probably associated with the Austronesians, which is undoubtedly a Neolithic expansion. O2 breaks into northern and southern branches, the southern appears related to the Late Hoabinhian. Also basically Neolithic. <br /><br />"I agree, several subgroups of O show clear signs of recent expansion with rice farmers. But as with R1b, this is not necessarily true for the original members of O nor for some of its subgroups". <br /><br />The 'Neolithic' in East Asia goes further back than just to 'rice farmers' though. But O3a2c looks very likely to have first expanded with rice farming. But the same may hold for O3a2 as a whole, and even for O3a1. O2's expansion is almost certainly pre-rice, but O1's may be associated with the expansion of rice through South China and SE Asia. and I do concede that the split between O1, O2 and O3, predates the Neolithic. twenty-seven thousand years is the date given in another recent paper on the subject. terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-8653693557463171082012-09-06T10:32:37.313+03:002012-09-06T10:32:37.313+03:00Teo,
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absen...Teo,<br /><br />Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. There have been arguments before that the R1b distribution in Europe is more or less completely separate from a similar "star" in Anatolia and therefor likely about equally old. My guess is that R1b spread with La Hoguette north, and then later just slightly more east when LBK separated into regional blocks. How and when it arrived in Southern France I don't know at this point, but some subbranches of R1b in Europe IMO show clear signs of very early neolithic expansion.<br /><br />Terry,<br /><br />I agree, several subgroups of O show clear signs of recent expansion with rice farmers. But as with R1b, this is not necessarily true for the original members of O nor for some of its subgroups.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-47912662634123632262012-09-06T04:01:53.440+03:002012-09-06T04:01:53.440+03:00In all of those cases, the expansion, the Neolithi...In all of those cases, the expansion, the Neolithic expansion, was strictly speaking of sub-haplogroups of E, O and R1b respectively. Nobody disputes that Bantu expansion and Han Chinese expansion happened, or that those expansions had some demographic dimensions. Nobody disputes that a small subset of all types of E, O and R1b make up most of the total from this hgs in Africa, China and Western Europe respectively.Andrew Oh-Willekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537151821869153861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-60648046419958994812012-09-05T06:46:08.918+03:002012-09-05T06:46:08.918+03:00"It confirmed Hg E (Bantu), O (China) and R1b..."It confirmed Hg E (Bantu), O (China) and R1b (Europe) expansions associated with the Neolithic transitions in different parts of the world" <br /><br />Maju is not going to like the inclusion of O in the Neolithic idea. However it is exactly what I have been suggesting for many years. terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-46565148860908386212012-09-04T21:59:36.054+03:002012-09-04T21:59:36.054+03:00The spread of R1b in most of Europe seems to be ve...The spread of R1b in most of Europe seems to be very late neolithic (we have no sign of it before the Bronze Age), and so both dates in this paper are at least twice older than what we expect given current data. <br /><br />Europe is the best studied place for ancient DNA, and these data appears to be at odds with what is already known for the region. Shouldn't this alone raise some red flags? <br /><br />Either R1b had been lurking (and yet expanding) somewhere 7kya-10kya in much of Europe, even though we haven't seen it at all, or the estimates are all wrong and the dates possibly older than they should be.tewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03905555876122154861noreply@blogger.com