tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post6662961442619267729..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Y chromosomes of Northwest ChinaDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger62125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-69991762347664676202010-05-05T00:20:43.026+03:002010-05-05T00:20:43.026+03:00I have never felt any Greek or any other ethnic or...I have never felt any Greek or any other ethnic or racial supremacism (which wouldn't disturb me anyway) from Dieneke. Rather, he seems to uphold a form of philosopher king rule (that also doesn't disturb me). <br /><br />Ashraf seems to be careful in separating his religious beliefs from his ideas about genetics, linguistics and anthropology (including socio-cultural anthropology).Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-25282528435552972292010-05-03T01:28:07.233+03:002010-05-03T01:28:07.233+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.aargiedudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02885756901119408472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-37110728481693372432010-05-02T20:12:33.568+03:002010-05-02T20:12:33.568+03:00One is a greek supremacist. J2 is the source of kn...<i>One is a greek supremacist. J2 is the source of knowledge , It is pristine, J2 is the IE culture, J2 is the great culture. It is in Turkey and Iran. So it got to be Greek.Obviously this J2 showed up in 1 study as Upper cast Indians and he try to generalize it for every thing else ignoring other 99999 studies.<br /></i><br /><br />Actually it showed up in 3 studies at least.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-72611662880971195402010-05-02T17:37:20.574+03:002010-05-02T17:37:20.574+03:00You did not seem to understand me, this Basque bi ...You did not seem to understand me, this Basque bi is clearly ie =>it's a loan from Latin or other ie language to Basque.ashrafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02590059778590185827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-60857663511522601882010-05-02T17:30:35.432+03:002010-05-02T17:30:35.432+03:00Ashraf, linking Basque bi- to Latin bi- of "b...Ashraf, linking Basque bi- to Latin bi- of "bis" demonstrates all you ignorance in linguistics: Latin "bis" comes from *dwis (see "duo" = two: the same Indo-European origin) like "bellum" from "*dwuellum" etc.<br /><br />Study linguistics from some tens of years and then come to speak with us.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-1764735004635940152010-05-02T16:28:48.173+03:002010-05-02T16:28:48.173+03:00Of course all cultures, are equal and their divers...Of course all cultures, are equal and their diversity is a chance of us as humans (even if nowadays distinct cultures tend to disappear or at least to converge) but it should not be forgoten that ie and at lesser extent semitic were rather colonialist, plagiaing, absorbing, millitary assimilating&very mixed (both genetically and culturally)cultural processes and entities.<br /><br />On the other hand we have unique, intrinsic, very rich and not colonialist cultures that predate indo europeans birth such as:<br />Etruscans<br />Minoans<br />Caucasians (Hurri, Urartean...)<br />Sumerian<br />Chinese<br />Amerindian<br />Egyptian<br />Pelasgian<br />No ie old cultures of Europe (Gravettian etc...)ashrafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02590059778590185827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-18362094430486061722010-05-02T16:07:58.619+03:002010-05-02T16:07:58.619+03:00I forget to add:
Center of the world is in Tchad.
...I forget to add:<br />Center of the world is in Tchad.<br />http://www.bfoit.org/itp/images/TurtleWorld.jpgashrafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02590059778590185827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-9797246558546368292010-05-02T16:05:13.423+03:002010-05-02T16:05:13.423+03:00"One is a greek supremacist. J2 is the source..."One is a greek supremacist. J2 is the source of knowledge , It is pristine, J2 is the IE culture, J2 is the great culture. It is in Turkey and Iran. So it got to be Greek.Obviously this J2 showed up in 1 study as Upper cast Indians and he try to generalize it for every thing else ignoring other 99999 studies.<br /><br />One is another Muslim from Iran/Pakistan I doubt he is from other Middle east countries. For him Turkey is the center of the world. So Muslims were at the center of the universe.Lost Ten years of genetic research is bullshit. My dear Ashrafee, out of R1a, R1a1a, R1b, E1b, J2, G2 show me a single group that is originated in Turkey as per any scientific journal." <br /><br /><br /><br />How can some proteins (J2 hg) be a source of knowledge!!!<br />Center of the world is and it is not in Turkey<br />As the center of the universe you should ask the NASA.<br />I'am not from pakistan/iran and please call me a human, how you dare call people by their religion.<br />Islam is an ordinary religion just as hinduism, shintoism, judaism nd christianity(and very close to the 2 latter ones)<br /><br />Here below the Swastika of Jamdat nasr.<br /> http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=77501<br /><br />Also if you can't read the book of Gamkrelidze you can find, many free papers in nostratica.ru of linguists explaining why the homeland of proto indo-european is Anatolia, for example this one:<br />http://www.nostratic.ru/books/(151)mcalpin%20-%20drav%20ela.doc<br /><br />Just a fantasist claim: please note that the name of the Tocharo-Germans Gutians of northeast Anatolia is similar to Goth and that the northeastern corner of Turkey is renowned for the great amount of Blondes.ashrafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02590059778590185827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-72177987591693637492010-05-02T13:18:08.038+03:002010-05-02T13:18:08.038+03:00Thanks for the info, Eurologist. So you didn't...Thanks for the info, Eurologist. So you didn't refer to a specific mittelgebirge but to a region in Germany that is mainly composed of mittelgebirges, am I right?Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-86361066532623659852010-05-02T10:31:30.736+03:002010-05-02T10:31:30.736+03:00This board is two people board:
One is a greek s...This board is two people board: <br /><br />One is a greek supremacist. J2 is the source of knowledge , It is pristine, J2 is the IE culture, J2 is the great culture. It is in Turkey and Iran. So it got to be Greek.Obviously this J2 showed up in 1 study as Upper cast Indians and he try to generalize it for every thing else ignoring other 99999 studies.<br /><br />One is another Muslim from Iran/Pakistan I doubt he is from other Middle east countries. For him Turkey is the center of the world. So Muslims were at the center of the universe.Lost Ten years of genetic research is bullshit. My dear Ashrafee, out of R1a, R1a1a, R1b, E1b, J2, G2 show me a single group that is originated in Turkey as per any scientific journal.South Central Haplohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00916788636469000041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-88915977416346636612010-05-01T18:36:17.074+03:002010-05-01T18:36:17.074+03:00Ashraf,
When quoting a passage please do it in a ...Ashraf,<br /><br />When quoting a passage please do it in a recognizable way (e.g., enclosing the quoted passage in quotation/ditto marks, writing it in html italics), otherwise it can be difficult and confusing to understand which parts of your posts are quotes and which parts your replies.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-34635732009461394702010-05-01T15:54:09.342+03:002010-05-01T15:54:09.342+03:00mr Wagg
Look, I need more than a few parallels wit...mr Wagg<br />Look, I need more than a few parallels with Afro-asiatic which I don't know how accepted they are by the specialists. <br /><br />It's rather the contrary, specialists such as Brunner, Bernal, Gamkrelidze&Ivanov and Dolgopolsky accept those parallels/loans.<br /><br />I read some of their books and it looks convincing, I will try to read the book of Gamkrelidze (more than 1200 pages) and also Lipinsky's semitic languages (more than 750 pages) in the summer, that's all I could add.ashrafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02590059778590185827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-79459667512805748722010-05-01T15:51:41.904+03:002010-05-01T15:51:41.904+03:00http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/68/Deutschla...http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/68/Deutschland_topo.jpgeurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-73982608415205096472010-05-01T15:23:47.317+03:002010-05-01T15:23:47.317+03:00@ Onur:
Eurologist, which mittelgebirge (it is a ...@ Onur:<br /><br /><i>Eurologist, which mittelgebirge (it is a geographical term of German origin) do you mean?</i><br /><br />Many cultural and linguistic occurrences in Germany over the past 9 or so millenia can be ordered by some very simple geographic features: there are the Danubian plains north of the Alps, usually culturally associated with at least the northern Alps, then there is a hilly landscape that has some higher mountains and some areas of extremely cold/dry weather, with moderate climate and very fertile valleys distributed at a low density ("Mittelgebirge" - ~600 to ~1,000m; http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittelgebirge#Mittelgebirge_in_Mitteleuropa), and then the extensive plains north of that, which have a mixture of fertile Loess soils and sandy soils mostly farther north, an have formed a continuing Sprachbund with the North Sea and Baltic Coast probably for the past 4,000 years.<br /><br />Conversely, the southern regions tended to drift away culturally and language-wise - but probably never enough to make re-unification a major problem.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-1823285786151230602010-05-01T14:39:38.725+03:002010-05-01T14:39:38.725+03:00I forget to add that we dont know much of Kassite ...I forget to add that we dont know much of Kassite language, that's why we can speculate that it's an indo-aryan (or sth else)tongue.ashrafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02590059778590185827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-19920779863436617172010-05-01T14:37:39.619+03:002010-05-01T14:37:39.619+03:00His argument about goats and sheep words in Italo-...His argument about goats and sheep words in Italo-Celtic and Germanic being different as a case for pre-goat and sheep PIE is also off. Those language branches weren't widely dispersed until several thousands of years after goats and sheep were established in those places. The argument that there was no PIE word for horses is similarly off (as is the notion that the horse is not a domesticated animal).<br /><br /><br /><br />How you then explain that the pie words for animals are shared/borrowed from Afro-Asiatic, if the pie homeland is in pontic steppes and also how you explain that pie has agriculture, panther, honey, birch terms.(Gamkrelidze&Ivanov)<br />There is no common pie word for horse but many, one of them is clearly Altaic (asva), another one is very close to semitic kabanu.<br />More importantly, have you an idea of the demography of 6000 bc pontic steppes, comparing it with the agricultural middle east, and I think you know R1a is either indian either middle eastern, so even if pie homeland is pontic steppes, proto ih homeland, most likely is in the middle east.ashrafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02590059778590185827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-2034651320120431112010-05-01T14:29:23.859+03:002010-05-01T14:29:23.859+03:00On the contrary, there are archeological prooves o...On the contrary, there are archeological prooves of destructive population movements from the west. <br />About Mitanni and Iranic : Mitanni was Hurrian-speaking, it's well documented. There is no proof of any Indo-aryan presence besides a few words and names of Indo-aryan gods. And Iranic is generally considered more recent than Indic which I fully agree with. <br /><br />I think you agree with me that carts and chariots were found and depicted in middle east much before ie migrations (if you agree with the pontico-caspian theory).<br />There are swastikas too (and cart like graffitis)in jamdat naser and even in America, it's not so important as it's a mere decorative motive, also I think you agree that the 5000 bc cart like depiction in Libyan desert is by far more convincing than the Polish one.<br />Egyptians were very consevative towrds exterior influences (unless you invade them), anyway they borrow carts from the invading <br />semite hyksos not the ie hittites.<br /><br />There is no big literature of Mitanni (similarly as kassite,gutian,lulubbys etc...) simply because they were "not educated"/emerged lately...<br /><br />Destructive population movements from the west are of the sea peoples and much more late.ashrafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02590059778590185827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-80887138260748062942010-05-01T13:04:11.869+03:002010-05-01T13:04:11.869+03:00The Myceneans are on the Statem side of the Statem...<i>The Myceneans are on the Statem side of the Statem-Centem divide in the IE languages.</i><br /><br />LOLDienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-490394248617066162010-05-01T12:24:33.952+03:002010-05-01T12:24:33.952+03:00Eurologist, which mittelgebirge (it is a geographi...Eurologist, which mittelgebirge (it is a geographical term of German origin) do you mean? There are many mittelgebirges in Germany (and in the rest of the world).<br /><br />Andrew, Greek (including Mycenean Greek) is a Centum language (with marginal Satem features). The rest of your Centum-Satem classification of IE languages seems to be correct. Also the Centum-Satem split seems to be much older than you suggest and the emergence of the European Centum languages has apparently nothing to do with Hittite or Tocharian dispersals. Btw, the non-Hittite name of Nesa was Kanesh (Kanes), not Kadesh (an ancient Levantine city far from Anatolia).Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-11064742601190222752010-05-01T12:24:33.953+03:002010-05-01T12:24:33.953+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-24655170236954312002010-05-01T10:56:03.558+03:002010-05-01T10:56:03.558+03:00Andrew,
I agree with much of what you said in you...Andrew,<br /><br />I agree with much of what you said in your first part, but I think IE is much older (around Funnelbeaker) in Europe than what you state. By the time Greece became IE, all the main European IE subfamilies had already developed.<br /><br /><br />Also, <br /><i>...shows Germanic languages start expanding out of Southern Scandinavia around 750 BC</i> is a very antiquated view. Yes, there was a cultural divide between the south (below the Mittelgebirge, Celtic) and the <i>Nordic</i> north, which is well-attested by thousands of finds. However, (i) we still don't have sufficient evidence that the south east of the Rhine actually spoke a Celtic language, and (ii) many researchers today agree that the north of Germany (including at least part of the central Mittelgebirge) and surrounding regions (Netherlands, parts of Belgium, large parts of Poland) were Germanic speaking or even proto-Germanic long before any Scandinavian tribes moved south.<br /><br />For example, there is no evidence that the Jastorf culture (that is located in the above region) is of Scandinavian origin - in fact, it has lots of influence from Hallstadt and La Tene, as one would expect. Likewise, the Przeworsk culture in today's Poland was very likely Germanic speaking. <br /><br />From the continuity of cultures, it seems that that the north of Germany down to at least the Mittelgebirge has been Germanic for over 3,000 years. Germanic has also been attested around and south of the Danube by 2,000 years ago - but that is just a lower limit. That area could have been widely (proto-) Germanic speaking long before then.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-759653394196504312010-05-01T09:07:20.788+03:002010-05-01T09:07:20.788+03:00@ Andrew Oh-Willeke : I know what I said is not di...@ <b>Andrew Oh-Willeke</b> : I know what I said is not directly proven, I just claimed that it seems to fit well in a clear well-established pattern. On the other hand, you'll have a hard time convincing me IE spread has anything to do with a Hittite diaspora from Anatolia. <br /><br />@ <b>Ashraf</b> : <br /><br />- <i>"chariots from 5000 bc Libyan desert"</i><br /><br />Where did you see that? If it were true the Egyptians wouldn't have waited for the Hyksos to get it. <br /><br />- <i>"3500 bc carts in polan would not be ie but pre ie"</i><br /><br />It doesn't change a thing, it makes it possible in adjacent regions. <br /><br />- <i>"depictions is not so important as material proofs"</i><br /><br />Of course they are. It's all about eyesight, not imagination. <br /><br />- <i>"Anatolian speaking Anatolians are autochtonous to southern Anatolia as there is no discontinuity and no attested western movement"</i><br /><br />On the contrary, there are archeological prooves of destructive population movements from the west. <br /><br />About Mitanni and Iranic : Mitanni was Hurrian-speaking, it's well documented. There is no proof of any Indo-aryan presence besides a few words and names of Indo-aryan gods. And Iranic is generally considered more recent than Indic which I fully agree with. <br /><br />- <i>"Also I want to add that it seems that first topographic names and locations in southern central Anatolia are Anatolian"</i><br /><br />I've read things quite different about it. <br /><br />Look, I need more than a few parallels with Afro-asiatic which I don't know how accepted they are by the specialists. Even the thunder god I mentionned is not that decisive, after all they're still different from each others and other explanations than an ancient common origin is still thinkable and other explanations as well, I guess. Same for the swastika thing, you can still allege some IE input (linked to the kurgan theory) for example, it's not like this symbol is all over the place, in the cultures I mentionned. <br /><br />You rely too much on a few elements and don't bother much about how it fits in the general picture, you don't consider much neither archeology nor cultural continuity. <br />For instance, horse was a central element in the IE culture, and the word for it is ubiquitous in the IE languages, and yet it was basically absent in Anatolia (a region packed with non-IE languages) untill bronze age, if I'm not mistaken, while the proto-IE seems to raise from the chalcolithic time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-58671492884088597812010-05-01T04:07:41.779+03:002010-05-01T04:07:41.779+03:00Also FWIW, Fournet's paper isn't very impr...Also FWIW, Fournet's paper isn't very impressive. He fails to get the motive behind Pontic-Caspian expansion (superior technology in horse warfare makes defeating other societies easier). For a really good motive that may a significant piece of at least the Satem side of the puzzle, one can get a much better reason: the Satasvati River dried up to the point that it became incapable of supporting food production around 2000 BC, the associated villages folded (with successor civilizations of Painted Ware starting new villages in the middle of the beds of the former river) and the large number of food producing people who lived there had to find someplace new to live.<br /><br />His argument about goats and sheep words in Italo-Celtic and Germanic being different as a case for pre-goat and sheep PIE is also off. Those language branches weren't widely dispersed until several thousands of years after goats and sheep were established in those places. The argument that there was no PIE word for horses is similarly off (as is the notion that the horse is not a domesticated animal).Andrew Oh-Willekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537151821869153861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-14571815682719475182010-05-01T03:51:19.077+03:002010-05-01T03:51:19.077+03:00Hittites weren't the only ones documenting the...Hittites weren't the only ones documenting the Mittani developments. The Mesopotamians were too and were closer, and the Mittani empire didn't go very far into the mountainous area. The case of Kassites as Indo-Aryans is very unlikely as we know what languages they imposed on the Akkadians when they took over and it wasn't an IE language.<br /><br />Iranic diversity may be a product of a mountainous terrain rather than greater age. The less travel there is between areas, the more they diversify in language. The Indic region was unified around the Indus and Ganges River routes with gentle valleys until quite late.<br /><br />There is a case for a somewhat older Hittite start date than 1754 BC. One that is attractive is the date of the first iron production not far from Kanesh. But, a few hundred years older in one city-state doesn't say much and the Hittites of Kanesh would have claimed more if they could (kingship is all about bragging rights back then). Any way you cut it, the Hittite population as of 2000 BC is very small. And, you have to explain where the quite linguistically different Proto-Greeks come from through a lot of hostile territory, the long way around the Black Sea.Andrew Oh-Willekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537151821869153861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-12041238443450128832010-05-01T00:11:59.775+03:002010-05-01T00:11:59.775+03:00Thank you for your interesting comment.
1/it'...Thank you for your interesting comment.<br /><br />1/it's a fact that Mitanni inscriptions are not early than 1700 bc, but (as other "uneducated" folks such as kassites and lulubbys) it could very well be assumed that they existed in Anatolia much older than the date of their first attestation, and simply emerged from their mountainous area at some point, similar case could be said for the hittites who could have been "outside educated world" (as they were located further west than northern mesoptamia).<br /><br />It's suggestive that Iranic branch is older and much diverse than indic one.<br /><br />Also the kassites could be an early indo-aryan folk.<br /><br /><br /><br />2/The folks of the pie homeland in Konya plains did not speak hittite but an older form of indo-hittite.<br /><br /><br />The short paper here below (6 pages) could be interesting as the proto indo-european homeland problem. <br /><br />http://www.scribd.com/doc/28214086/A-Linguistic-Approach-of-the-PIE-Homelandashrafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02590059778590185827noreply@blogger.com