tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post6462032558802481406..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Climate and body compositionDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-28800144271182057852012-01-16T03:06:22.734+02:002012-01-16T03:06:22.734+02:00"The article presents figures by region rathe..."The article presents figures by region rather than individual ethnic groups". <br /><br />Quite. And the Polynesians are confined to a particular region, but they don't fit the pattern. <br /><br />"I am still not sure that the body type of the original Polynesians was more robust than that of other southern Mongoloids" <br /><br />That is probably correct. The Polynesians presumably were originally 'southern Mongoloids' and looked much like Malays or Filipinos. They developed their robustness as they moved over open expanses of ocean. <br /><br />"if it should turn out the original Polynesians (and eastern Micronesians) were more robust than that of other southern Mongoloids, I would try to explain it by an admixture of Melanesian blood (which we already have reason to suppose on other grounds, including linguistics)". <br /><br />Melanesians basically fit the standard climate-based hypothesis. They are not near as 'robust' as are Polynesians. However they may be more robust than Papuans, but this would be again because of long-distance travel over open sea at night. However nowhere near such distances as the Polynesians were required to do.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-74091297565320045262012-01-15T04:30:26.631+02:002012-01-15T04:30:26.631+02:00I am still not sure that the body type of the orig...I am still not sure that the body type of the original Polynesians was more robust than that of other southern Mongoloids, in part because of the BMI figures. The article presents figures by region rather than individual ethnic groups. And the articles it cites on these groups are not always relevant to the problem, while studies of BMI seem to be mainly concerned with obesity. Well members of any group, with any natural body type, can make themselves fat (assuming enough food is available). Because of that fact, and the fact that some admixture with Westerners has taken place, I suspect that the original phenotype of the Polynesians (and the eastern Micronesians) was less robust—though still more robust than that of Australoids and Papuans, as a result of their Mongoloid ancestry.<br />However, if it should turn out the original Polynesians (and eastern Micronesians) were more robust than that of other southern Mongoloids, I would try to explain it by an admixture of Melanesian blood (which we already have reason to suppose on other grounds, including linguistics). Now we have the question of where the robustness of the Melanesians comes from. Their closest relatives, the Papuans, are less robust on the average, though there may be large subgroups of them are significantly more robust than the average Papuan. I suspect that the trihybrid hypothesis of Birdsell may be again be useful here and that the robustness may come from the Caucasoid component (“Murrayians”).Gregory76https://www.blogger.com/profile/16796327568266234469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-61358889752967402892012-01-05T23:50:21.154+02:002012-01-05T23:50:21.154+02:00"ignores that the Mongoloids geographically a..."ignores that the Mongoloids geographically and genetically closest to Polynesians - ie the Vietnamese, the Malays, the southern Chinese, etc. - all have low BMI". <br /><br />Exactly. <br /><br />"It could be that Polynesians retain traits that the Mongoloids around them have not" <br /><br />That's a possibility, but unlikely. 'Polynesians' didn't strictly exist until 3000 years ago at most. So they are long removed from 'Mongoloids'. Some may find this Wiki link interesting: <br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_Malays<br /><br />Quote: <br /><br />"Malays (Malay: Melayu Jawi: ملايو) are an ethnic group of Austronesian people predominantly inhabiting the Malay Peninsula, including the southernmost parts of Thailand, the east coast of Sumatra, the coast of Borneo, and the smaller islands which lie between these locations. The Malay ethnic group is distinct from the concept of a Malay race, which encompasses a wider group of people, including most of Indonesia, Philippines, and Oceania". <br /><br />This 'Malay race' shares the Austronesian language with Polynesians. And: <br /><br />"If one follow the original migration of a certain group of southern Chinese of 6,000 years ago, some moved to Taiwan (today's Taiwanese aborigines are their descendents), then to the Philippines and later to Borneo (roughly 4,500 years ago) (today's Dayak and other groups). These ancient people also split with some heading to Sulawesi and others progressing into Java, and Sumatra. The final migration was to the Malayan Peninsula roughly 3,000 years ago. A sub-group from Borneo moved to Champa in Vietnam roughly 4,500 years ago. Interestingly, the Champa group eventually moved to present day Kelantan in Malaysia. There are also traces of the Dong Song and HoaBinh migration from Vietnam and Cambodia. There was also the Southern Thai migration, from what we know as Pattani today. All these groups share DNA and linguistic origins traceable to the island that is today Taiwan, and the ancestors of these ancient people are traceable to southern China". <br /><br />So the Polynesians come from Southern China, but from a period before South China had become as completely Mongoloid as it is today.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-38901012152261595792012-01-05T19:09:07.303+02:002012-01-05T19:09:07.303+02:00Saying that remnant Mongoloid traits are the causa...Saying that remnant Mongoloid traits are the causative factor of high BMI in Polynesians ignores that the Mongoloids geographically and genetically closest to Polynesians - ie the Vietnamese, the Malays, the southern Chinese, etc. - all have low BMI.<br /><br />It could be that Polynesians retain traits that the Mongoloids around them have not - in which case drift or selection remains a question - or it could be that the Mongoloid profile is not as useful as some people like to think.Lathdrinorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08214825065599007633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-35507261959551758312012-01-05T00:06:17.003+02:002012-01-05T00:06:17.003+02:00"Though the Mongoloid phenotype is somewhat d..."Though the Mongoloid phenotype is somewhat diluted among the Malayans" <br /><br />'Somewhat diluted'? Considerably diluted more like. The expression Malay' applies equally to Indonesians and Filipinos, as well as to Polynesians. <br /><br />"it seems that Australoids may be involved, in addition to or instead of Papuans" <br /><br />Possibly. It depends on what people inhabited island SE Asia before the arrival of the Mongoloids. Quite likely a mixture of Australoids and Papuans. <br /><br />"since we know that the Polynesians are mostly descended from partially Mongoloid Malayans, and that a high BMI is associated with Mongoloids, the most parsimonious explanation for Polynesians having a higher BMI than would be selected for in their hot climate is that it is a result of their Mongoloid ancestry". <br /><br />Although the explanation you offer may be 'the most parsimonious explanation', that explanation is unlikely to be the correct one. The 'partially Mongoloid Malayans' that Polynesians are descended from do not possess the higher BMI. So some other explanation is required. Virtually everyone who has studied Polynesians offers the explanation I offered earlier. <br /><br />"So there still seems no need to abandon a climate-based explanation in favor of a diet-based one in this case". <br /><br />Obviously the authors of the paper under consideration here feel it necessary to exclude Polynesians because they fail to fit the expected result. But a climate-based explanation still fits. No diet-based explanation has ever been offered.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-44351412800409739262012-01-04T09:38:55.886+02:002012-01-04T09:38:55.886+02:00Though the Mongoloid phenotype is somewhat diluted...Though the Mongoloid phenotype is somewhat diluted among the Malayans, they are still are mostly Mongoloid, and though the phenotype seems to be still more diluted among the Polynesians, the Mongoloid component is strong if not predominant among them. <br />Insofar as the dilution of the Mongoloid phenotype among the Malayans is due to admixture with non-Mongoloid, it seems that Australoids may be involved, in addition to or instead of Papuans, and the dilution may be partly or wholly due to adaptation of Mongoloids to the warmer climate.<br />In any case, since we know that the Polynesians are mostly descended from partially Mongoloid Malayans, and that a high BMI is associated with Mongoloids, the most parsimonious explanation for Polynesians having a higher BMI than would be selected for in their hot climate is that it is a result of their Mongoloid ancestry. So there still seems no need to abandon a climate-based explanation in favor of a diet-based one in this case.Gregory76https://www.blogger.com/profile/16796327568266234469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-76159109461295845112012-01-03T06:28:17.934+02:002012-01-03T06:28:17.934+02:00"the smaller, more lightly built were more li..."the smaller, more lightly built were more likely to be eaten in emergency situations". <br /><br />Possibly. Perhaps they would be less able to fight off larger people. Personally I would prefer to eat younger individuals whose flesh would be more tender. Same as young sheep or cattle. <br /><br />"So the Polynesians still retain some of the cold-adapted Mongoloid phenotype" <br /><br />That's unlikely to be the explanation. Polynesians are basically large-framed Malays rather than being Mongoloids. Malays (and Polynesians) display evidence of being a mixture between Mongoloids and Papuans. <br /><br />" there seems to be a hole in this paper regarding diet. New World African history seems an ideal area within which to assess the question". <br /><br />I'm sure that diet would have an effect, but I don't think that it explains the Polynesian differential. Even taking into consideration the fact that some groups practiced cannibalism.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-67089483500743347532012-01-02T17:54:42.438+02:002012-01-02T17:54:42.438+02:00Gregory76 said...
"Only if the latter had ch...Gregory76 said... <br />"Only if the latter had changed greatly from their ancestors, and done so independently from the influences of Caucasoid admixture, would we have reason to wonder why Polynesians were not more heat-adapted. So in this case it would be premature to abandon the climate-based explanation for a dietary one."<br /><br />Good point. But, inclination being what it is, there seems to be a hole in this paper regarding diet. New World African history seems an ideal area within which to assess the question. Perhaps not.Pascvakshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08311382875179534062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-88047178370891742812012-01-02T09:10:19.477+02:002012-01-02T09:10:19.477+02:00Pascvaks says: "the opposite should tend true...Pascvaks says: "the opposite should tend true among Africans brought to the New World from the tropics and located in temperate climates."<br /><br />Your example supports rather than undermines the generalization, since it illustrates the relative absence of a trend away from the ancestral type, just as we have with the Polynesians. In both cases the movement was too recent to have produced much of a change yet. So the Polynesians still retain some of the cold-adapted Mongoloid phenotype of their ancestors as the American Negroes retain some of heat-adapted Negroid phenotype of their ancestors. Only if the latter had changed greatly from their ancestors, and done so independently from the influences of Caucasoid admixture, would we have reason to wonder why Polynesians were not more heat-adapted. So in this case it would be premature to abandon the climate-based explanation for a dietary one.Gregory76https://www.blogger.com/profile/16796327568266234469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-25529281069374866802012-01-02T03:30:16.860+02:002012-01-02T03:30:16.860+02:00@terry,
It also suggests to me that during long p...@terry,<br /><br />It also suggests to me that during long periods at sea, the smaller, more lightly built were more likely to be eaten in emergency situations.<br /><br />This could be tested if the Polynesians on the farthest away islands were the heaviest and those closest to larger landmasses smaller.pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-51511970405463603732012-01-02T01:52:06.394+02:002012-01-02T01:52:06.394+02:00"the opposite should trend true among African..."the opposite should trend true among Africans brought to the New World from the tropics and located in temperate climates". <br /><br />Possibly long-term that may become so. But Polynesians spent generations traveling long distances from island to island whereas single African generations crossed the Atlantic in a few months.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-49852944802439914062012-01-01T05:38:42.737+02:002012-01-01T05:38:42.737+02:00"Polynesian populations were analyzed separat..."Polynesian populations were analyzed separately and contradicted all of the climate trends, indicating support for the hypothesis that they are cold-adapted despite occupying a tropical region". <br /><br />The generally accepted explanation is that their expansion involved long periods spent at sea where individuals with small body mass would have been more likely to die of hypothermia.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-66320616860975014232011-12-31T19:41:38.165+02:002011-12-31T19:41:38.165+02:00"Polynesian populations were analyzed separat..."Polynesian populations were analyzed separately and contradicted all of the climate trends, indicating support for the hypothesis that they are cold-adapted despite occupying a tropical region."<br /><br />It occures to me, then, that the opposite should trend true among Africans brought to the New World from the tropics and located in temperate climates. Am I missing something? The Polynesian body fat issue would seem to suggest something else related to climate/diet than climate/temperature.Pascvakshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08311382875179534062noreply@blogger.com