tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post5978592326947474952..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Genetic structure in northern Europe revisitedDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger101125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-31828737795007627062009-07-09T12:28:34.491+03:002009-07-09T12:28:34.491+03:00Afghanistan? I know of no single genetic study in ...Afghanistan? I know of no single genetic study in that country - but of course I am very interested, can you direct me to such study? That is, assuming it does exist and is not an extrapolation you make from Pakistanis.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-26498976141201484402009-07-09T05:01:50.485+03:002009-07-09T05:01:50.485+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.blogmasterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11834163614642737338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-83938714533192616512009-03-19T05:43:00.000+02:002009-03-19T05:43:00.000+02:00"The ark on Mt Araraat wasn´t there on holiday?" ..."The ark on Mt Araraat wasn´t there on holiday?" <BR/><BR/>Oh, so which Mt Ararat are you refering to? Urartu or Eridu? Or another one. To me Eridu makes the most sense. After all it's on a natural rise above the Mesopotamian floodplain, and the earliest temple in the region (where fish were ritually eaten on religious occasions) is found there. So, although Pconroy mentions many floods, the one that has come down to us through the Old Testament myth is likley to be one people survived on the higher ground at Eridu. Fits Gilgamesh as well.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-485070811874602222009-03-17T19:51:00.000+02:002009-03-17T19:51:00.000+02:00McGregor,The problem with "The Flood" is that ther...McGregor,<BR/><BR/>The problem with "The Flood" is that there were many floods, many times, and there are flood legends in many cultures that inhabit coastal or lake-shore sites.pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-29270622398094463832009-03-17T19:36:00.000+02:002009-03-17T19:36:00.000+02:00I suggest you look at some of my references re dog...I suggest you look at some of my references re doggerland and the east coast of scotland. there was a tsunami off the coast of norway that dumped millions of tons of debris in that area. In any case, I cannot prove a catastrophe, its just that there is a discontinuity in R1b from 12 to 13 at 393 at about the time of the flood, about 6K BC. the annals of the time all reflect a major disaster occurred in the Black Sea region and others. I respect your opinion so I´ll leave it at that.McGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03459589185170647441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-46272585765369102632009-03-17T00:24:00.000+02:002009-03-17T00:24:00.000+02:00Maju I´ll bet that cave isn´t at sea level?Not at ...<I>Maju I´ll bet that cave isn´t at sea level?</I><BR/><BR/>Not at sea level like Gorham's Cave but just above it, overseeing a very rich swampy area that now is a natural reserve.<BR/><BR/><I>north america is just one huge glacial remanant. gorges shaped by glaciers etc. and not all that long ago.</I><BR/><BR/>An image is worth a thousand words: <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Northern_icesheet_hg.png" REL="nofollow"> aprox. extension of the LGM ice sheet</A>, for more detailed maps (only for Eurasia), check <A HREF="http://www.donsmaps.com/icemaps.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>.<BR/><BR/>Half or more of North America was ice free, including most of mainland USA and all Mexico. In Europe the ice sheet covered the Baltic area but only half on Britain and just small portions of Germany. Of course there was tundra just south of it...<BR/><BR/><I>Look up doggerland and the 200 M increase in sea level.</I><BR/><BR/>Sure there was an increase in sea level everywhere, and many areas then exposed are now under the sea (the extent varies depending of local orography) but most of the land inhabited in the UP remained above sea level all the time and, anyhow, the change was not catastrophic but gradual. <BR/><BR/><I>The ark on Mt Araraat wasn´t there on holiday?</I><BR/><BR/>Uh, what ark? That's just a tale for children, like Santa Claus. In fact it's a deformation of a Sumerian legend, which some believe refers not to any specific flood (not located archaeologically, at least not any one of even remotely comparable dimensions) but to a flood of people: the Semites. <BR/><BR/><I>Again, this is argumentative and catastrophes are a huge eraser, removing earlier traces.</I><BR/><BR/>They leave traces of their own. Toba explosion left a thick layer of ashes, several meters wide. A flood like the one you speculate with would leave massive sedimentary deposits of silt. I am totally undaware of any such evidence. I know of more localized catastrophes and their clear signature, like the silting of the marine branch that linked Zambujal (major Chalcolithic city of Portugal) with the sea, possibly caused by a tsunami but not anything like what you suggest. <BR/><BR/>The sea level rise was gradual. Even a massive sea level rise nowadays, as forecasted by scientists, would not be sudden: even if it can destroy our coastal cities, most people would just be able to, calmly and gradualy move to a higher ground.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-21297471999625093072009-03-16T23:34:00.000+02:002009-03-16T23:34:00.000+02:00Maju I´ll bet that cave isn´t at sea level? nort...Maju I´ll bet that cave isn´t at sea level? north america is just one huge glacial remanant. gorges shaped by glaciers etc. and not all that long ago. Look up doggerland and the 200 M increase in sea level. The ark on Mt Araraat wasn´t there on holiday? Again, this is argumentative and catastrophes are a huge eraser, removing earlier traces. I´ll try to explain more later.McGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03459589185170647441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-1166175343031517282009-03-16T23:20:00.000+02:002009-03-16T23:20:00.000+02:00Caveat: I said: a techno-culture that you cannot t...Caveat: <BR/><BR/>I said: <I>a techno-culture that you cannot trace to the previous one quite nicely</I><BR/><BR/>Graettian may be the only exception. It's sometimes considered "intrusive" in the Franco-Cantabrian area and arrived quite late to SW Europe, just before the onset of the Solutrean "reaction".Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-56434685055138379962009-03-16T23:16:00.000+02:002009-03-16T23:16:00.000+02:00I see much of the recent evidence converging on th...<I>I see much of the recent evidence converging on the idea that R1b and its subclades in Western Europe are largely of Neolithic and later Indo-European origin.</I><BR/><BR/>I see a lot of people saying the same, yet where is the "evidence"? Some fancy TRMCA hunch? Not better than McGregor's surely. Has anybody tested any aDNA yet in European fossil humans? Not as far as I know. Where is the "evidence", then?<BR/><BR/>Ma che! (this is Italian for "get real!")<BR/><BR/><I>this is a very argumentative subject. my analysis says R1b = 13 occurred somewhere about 6K to 8K years ago, possibly after the flood? Maju has a better feel for the archaeology, I just report the numbers. In my judgment very few of the old population left bloodlines and thus the emphasis on a more recent time frame.</I><BR/><BR/>In my opinion, there was never any flood and you can trace the populations archaeologically step by step from Aurignacian to the present. Please: a few kilometers from my great-great-gandfather's farmhouse there is a cave that has the whole sequence from Chatelperronian to the Iron Age (Santimamiñe). It's maybe exceptional but it's not the only case certainly. <BR/><BR/>Anyhow, at no moment you get the feeling of discontinuity. Change for sure (but normally gradual) but never a widespread esterile layer or a techno-culture that you cannot trace to the previous one quite nicely. And certainly no indications of any "flood" at all.<BR/><BR/>And (this goes for the "Indoeuropeists") when the Celts arrive, you see conflict at the Ebro border. And then written history arrives and the Celts are south of it (and north of the Garonne) and then linguists come and see no trace of Celtic influence in Basque (in contrast with a very strong Latin one, for instance). Etc. <BR/><BR/>I could even take that Basque language is of Neolithic origin because languages can be replaced much more easily than genes. But I can't find any good explanation for a genetic explosion following the Atlantic coasts that can be attributed to Neolithic or post-Neolithic events. <BR/><BR/>It's just that the data don't fit well, or even poorly. I really couldn't care less but when you look at it with some true interest you see continuity. Furthermore, you see a very strong population growth following Neolithic (more in the Chalcolithic period and thereafter, as Neolithic proper was short-lived and tenuous here). Even anthropometrically you see continuity, except partly in the Ebro area, where gracile Mediterranean types are relatively common. <BR/><BR/>You have to present very solid evidence, much more than a MCH hunch, to persuade me that there was a demographic replacement in the Basque Country - or anywhere else in Atlantic Europe. In fact, I don't see clear evidence even for any signifcative colonization in the Western Mediterranean - just a gradual, or more probably epysodical, flow of Eastern Mediterranean and, in Iberia, North African elements.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-41640577272814277422009-03-16T19:33:00.000+02:002009-03-16T19:33:00.000+02:00this is a very argumentative subject. my analysis...this is a very argumentative subject. my analysis says R1b = 13 occurred somewhere about 6K to 8K years ago, possibly after the flood? Maju has a better feel for the archaeology, I just report the numbers. In my judgment very few of the old population left bloodlines and thus the emphasis on a more recent time frame. Europe wasn´t a very nice place to be at the end of the ice age, JMHOMcGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03459589185170647441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-55047402804065252682009-03-16T19:16:00.000+02:002009-03-16T19:16:00.000+02:00Maju, McGregor,I see much of the recent evidence c...Maju, McGregor,<BR/><BR/>I see much of the recent evidence converging on the idea that R1b and its subclades in Western Europe are largely of Neolithic and later Indo-European origin.<BR/><BR/>The idea that R1b and subclades represent the Paleolithic population of Europe seem dead in the water.<BR/><BR/>For example there is a fine article <A HREF="http://www.buildinghistory.org/articles/basques.shtml" REL="nofollow">Debunking the Basque myth</A>, by Jean Manco.pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-86881243840431530252009-03-16T17:32:00.000+02:002009-03-16T17:32:00.000+02:00re maju. R1a to R1b is a tough call. very few sa...re maju. R1a to R1b is a tough call. very few samples left in the population. VV has some older 12´s which I will look at. to get full TMRCA to archaeological correspondence we have to have descendants all the way back to the SNP!McGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03459589185170647441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-91536167957470000552009-03-16T17:30:00.000+02:002009-03-16T17:30:00.000+02:00@Gioello: IF R1b1b2 arrived from West Asia BEFORE ...@Gioello: <BR/><BR/>IF R1b1b2 arrived from West Asia BEFORE the LGM, evolved into R1b1b2a in (possibly) the Franco-Cantabrian Region, became fixated in this clade there at the LGM population minimum and THEN expanded with Magdalenian (and derived cultures), you have the THEORETICAL answer to your query. <BR/><BR/>The origin of R1b or R1b1b2 does not need to be the same as that of R1b1b2a, which happens to be main haplogroup in Western Europe. R1b can perfectly be West or Central Asian, R1b1b2 "Balcanic" (or from somewhere nearby like Asia Minor... or even Italy) and still R1b1b2a can be Western European by origin.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-87875783953359751962009-03-16T17:03:00.000+02:002009-03-16T17:03:00.000+02:00typo... and they match the UK sample...typo<BR/>... and they match the UK sample...pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-68331030630655812492009-03-16T17:01:00.000+02:002009-03-16T17:01:00.000+02:00Ponto said...I could have told you without the res...Ponto said...<BR/>I could have told you without the results that Australians would be indistinguishable from the UK, mostly English people.<BR/>The Irish element is 25% of the population but they are wholely Roman Catholic, and they choose to segregate themselves preferring the Catholic school system.<BR/>I have lived in Australia my whole life and I don't know any Irish Australians as friends and know no Catholics, and would not choose one as a spouse.<BR/><BR/>Ponto,<BR/><BR/>I think you need to hone your reading skills and get out of Alice a bit more!<BR/><BR/>Of course people of Irish descent are not 100% Catholic, I have a bunch of close relatives in Australia of Irish descent, who are both Catholic and non-Catholic, Irish married to English, etc.<BR/>Outside of Ireland, the most Irish culture in the world is Australian, your national sport Aussie Rules, is derived from a game Gaelic Football, played by Irish convicts. Aussie national icons like "Paul Hogan" are of Irish descent, along with many of you premiers. I know from my cousins that Aussies have a distaste for Pommies (or Poms) which are recent English settlers, as Aussies view themselves as anything but English.<BR/>I also have a bunch of cousins and family in New Zealand, and that country is much more English than Australia.<BR/><BR/>In regards to the structure chart, if the Aussies have 25 to 40% known admixture with Irish, AND they match the UK same, ERGO the UK sample is probably 25-40% Irish...pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-55302864432821960062009-03-16T15:14:00.000+02:002009-03-16T15:14:00.000+02:00re nomenclature. I call R1b with a 13 at393 Celti...re nomenclature. I call R1b with a 13 at393 Celtic. With a 12 I use the term Alban(alba, alpes,albania etc.). These people occupied the mountainous areas from the caucasus to the british isles. They suffered from severe climate change and in general didn´t migrate from their highland heritage. Alba is a very old term, used in latin to mean white.<BR/>When I return to NY I plan to recompute all my estimates and update my site.McGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03459589185170647441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-76992957227299613912009-03-16T14:24:00.000+02:002009-03-16T14:24:00.000+02:00"Italy was not any wasteland. But doesn't seem cen..."Italy was not any wasteland. But doesn't seem central for any major cultural/demic process before the Roman Empire. Over the time it became receptor of many different peoples - and it's not the only European region in this situaton anyhow"<BR/><BR/>We all come from elsewhere. The problem in "when". J2a1k1 came recently from Balkans (or Greece) or arrived to Italy many thousands of years ago? R1b1b2 has wintered in Italy during the Younger Dryas and after peopled all Western Europe or arrived to Italy from North (West or East)? But why we don't find in Italy R-L21? And why we don't find in Spain R1b1b2 (L23-,L51-), except some of Roman descent?Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-17500731574695818112009-03-16T03:14:00.000+02:002009-03-16T03:14:00.000+02:00the work I have done this winter is better. I have...the work I have done this winter is better. I have used and analyzed a rootsweb database that that has about 22K entries for R1b´s first twelve dys loci. The R1a to R1b split is tough to predict. to few survivors. high SD.McGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03459589185170647441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-52701792079219710652009-03-16T02:45:00.000+02:002009-03-16T02:45:00.000+02:00@McG:Thanks for the link. The first document is th...@McG:<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the link. The first document is the one relevant, right? You claim to find, following Zhivotovski mutation rate, that West European R1b has dates ranging from 12,000 to 8,000 BP. I find its most interesting and surpsisingly accurate for a TRMCA estimate. As I said above, if we count from the LGM to Tardenoisian/geometric microlithism, the window is 13,500 to 8000 BP. I am gladly surprised that you seem to reach to similar conclusions by totally different methods. Chapeau!<BR/><BR/>You also mention that you estimate the R1a-R1b split c. 23,000 BP. This I have some difficulty to fit within the archaeological frame instead. If the dates could be stretched some 20-25%, they would fit perfectly with R1b arriving to Europe with Gravettian and R1b1b2a "exploding" with Magdalenian. <BR/><BR/>This would be the most convenient explanation, the one that presents no difficulties other than TRMCA hunches. It would also restore the parallel between R1b and mtDNA H, which we know now it's Gravettian by origin and shows a starlike structure in Europe that resembles way too much the one of R1b1b2a.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-58581236935329613372009-03-16T01:36:00.000+02:002009-03-16T01:36:00.000+02:00There are findings about mtDNA H in Italy 28,000 y...<I>There are findings about mtDNA H in Italy 28,000 years ago...</I><BR/><BR/>That basically seems to demonstrate that H expanded with Gravettian, in Italy and elsewhere (that we lack of aDNA data for elsewhere does not imply that Italy was the source: Gravettian known origins are in Central Europe). <BR/><BR/><BR/><I>Ancient Italy wasn't that "waste land" many peoples think about...</I><BR/><BR/>Italy was not any wasteland. But doesn't seem central for any major cultural/demic process before the Roman Empire. Over the time it became receptor of many different peoples - and it's not the only European region in this situaton anyhow.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-59354045511319202842009-03-15T20:52:00.000+02:002009-03-15T20:52:00.000+02:00my blogspot is www.kerchner.com/mcgregor/table.htm...my blogspot is www.kerchner.com/mcgregor/table.htm<BR/>don´t pay any attention to ASD comments, I no longer use that approach. the flood study is appropriate to this discussion and suggests that a fairly large northern hemispherical effect was felt. I am suspicious of catastrophism but there is a lot of technical references that somewhat support the biblical reference.McGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03459589185170647441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-49947709185011668132009-03-15T18:01:00.000+02:002009-03-15T18:01:00.000+02:00You are very well-read in Archeology, better than ...You are very well-read in Archeology, better than me, and I have no doubt about your knowledge.<BR/>I am not able to discuss your assertions.<BR/><BR/>"Not sure what's your evidence but one thing is Italy being the source of some small lineage, something that would be perfectly plausible, and another the source of the vast majority of paternal ancestors in Western Europe, what demands a solid explanation".<BR/><BR/>Remembering a recent paper on the peopling of North America, as large group are diffused overall and aren't able to demonstrate anything about their origin, I think that the very small group can demonstrate this. There are findings about mtDNA H in Italy 28,000 years ago and also of N1, etc. Ancient Italy wasn't that "waste land" many peoples think about and "April isn't the cruellest month".Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-52518742184516127782009-03-15T14:18:00.000+02:002009-03-15T14:18:00.000+02:00R1b probably is recent in Europe, not Paleolithic ...<I>R1b probably is recent in Europe, not Paleolithic at all. Pinzochero and many others are thinking to the late neolithic.</I><BR/><BR/>But those conclussions are only based on TRMCA estimates, what is otally speculative. Sloppy pseudoscience. You need something more than just that to get a solid estimate and that's why I always demand a plausible pre-/historical scenario. <BR/><BR/><I>I have many proofs also from mtDNA. I wrote something on a previous posting of Dienekes on R1b in Italy. That Italy was the Refugium of N1b (and that those Jewish N1bs come from Italy), I think it is demonstrated by the last "Phylo Tree.org - mtDNA tree Build3". I am collecting many samples from Italians who live in other countries: H5, T2f, J2 etc. etc.</I><BR/><BR/>Not sure what's your evidence but one thing is Italy being the source of some small lineage, something that would be perfectly plausible, and another the source of the vast majority of paternal ancestors in Western Europe, what demands a solid explanation. <BR/><BR/>I can only think of the following founding situations (in chronological order):<BR/><BR/>1. Aurignacian - probably too old.<BR/>2. Gravettian - a good candidate that nevertheless clashes with the usual age estimates. It's probably at the origin of mtDNA HV, H and V spread, which are very much parallel in distribution (and starlike structure in the case of H) to R1b.<BR/>3. Magdalenian - a classical. The final Magdalenian area fits terribly well with modern R1b1b2a spread and the LGM before it offers a nearly perfect scenario for massive drift and fixation.<BR/>4. Tardenoisian and related Epipaleolithic cultures (geometric microlithism, Ertebölle, etc.) - fits well with the alleged "Neolithic" chronolgy (just 1000 years older or so) and spans for the whole R1b1b2a area as well. <BR/>5. Dolmenic Megalithism - it is "late Neolithic" (Chalcolithic for the most part) and its spread again covers pretty well the modern R1b1b2a area. The main problems are that Portugal (likely origin) is not particularly high nor diverse in R1b and how to explain massive replacement after Neolithic was consolidated in most affected areas. <BR/><BR/>So I'm very strongly inclined for the 2, 3 and/or 4 timeline. In dates: from c. 28,000 to c. 8000 BP. If we exclude Gravettian: 17,000-8000 BP. If we only consider post-LGM events: 13,000-8000 BP.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-80183881828464351932009-03-15T12:01:00.000+02:002009-03-15T12:01:00.000+02:00R1b probably is recent in Europe, not Paleolithic ...R1b probably is recent in Europe, not Paleolithic at all. Pinzochero and many others are thinking to the late neolithic. I think to the Epigravettian, where I put my Italian Refugium.<BR/>I have many proofs also from mtDNA. I wrote something on a previous posting of Dienekes on R1b in Italy. That Italy was the Refugium of N1b (and that those Jewish N1bs come from Italy), I think it is demonstrated by the last "Phylo Tree.org - mtDNA tree Build3". I am collecting many samples from Italians who live in other countries: H5, T2f, J2 etc. etc.<BR/>And, last but not least, my K1a1b1 and my 23% Ashkenazi autosomal with many millions of documented Tuscan ancestors.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-18044268390793525942009-03-15T10:48:00.000+02:002009-03-15T10:48:00.000+02:00Well, the Italian refugium is a really unlikely or...Well, the Italian refugium is a really unlikely origin for Western European Y-DNA, because we know that Magdalenian expanded from the Franco-Cantabrian region, but Italy remained epi-Gravettian all the way to Neolithic. <BR/><BR/>You have to realize that there is a Prehistory, which may not be fully clear in all its details but that it is well known anyhow - at least in Europe. And Italy, AFAIK, remained marginal from Gravettian to Neolithic, when it served as "bridge" between the Adriatic and teh Western Mediterranean - and, after Neolithic, till the Romans more or less. Overall Italy looks more like a reciever than any origin, unless you want to "blame" the Romans for R1b - what I would not even consider.<BR/><BR/>Also the presence of Western and Eastern haplogtypes in Italy is well explained by the existence of two different sources. And the eastern source is also found in other Italian haplogroups anyhow. <BR/><BR/>I stick to the Paleolithic model, even if I am now more inclined to consider Epipaleolithic flows as well.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.com