tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post5834721517804099213..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Iceman stories begin arriving!Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-36050457204265037712012-02-21T18:26:01.150+02:002012-02-21T18:26:01.150+02:00The low-pass (2-3+X genomes) Sardinian project whi...The low-pass (2-3+X genomes) Sardinian project which was a subject of another talk there is huge (6,000 individuals from 4 small towns, mostly with medical research in mind) but barely analyzed. I don't think that there were any meaningful comparisons with their dataset. The Sardinian data which Carlos Bustamante used were SNPs (best match genome-wise, and the Y hap was specific to Sardinia and Corsica). My notes don't say where this Sardinia SNP dataset came from, and it didn't sound like a new development. What seemed new was the conspicuous lack of closest similarity to 100- Genomes' Tuscans. <br /><br />Sorry I should have read this entry *before* listening to his talk, but at least I found your blog because of it ;)MOCKBAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05150628026789690963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-47368150098616598172012-02-21T10:20:14.738+02:002012-02-21T10:20:14.738+02:00Did they compare him against Basques or Sardinians...Did they compare him against Basques or Sardinians using lower-density data?Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-16435747855995952712012-02-21T01:51:16.938+02:002012-02-21T01:51:16.938+02:00Supposedly they are publishing the results soon. A...Supposedly they are publishing the results soon. At AGBT 2012 the slides showed that Otzi is equally distant, all genes-wise, to Tuscans and the rest of W and N Europeans (except Finns who are more distant). "Unfortunately there aren't any whole exome data for Sardinians yet (or Basques for that matter)"MOCKBAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05150628026789690963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-66291543605588498302011-11-06T06:39:38.350+02:002011-11-06T06:39:38.350+02:00lyme disease will also cause heart problems.lyme disease will also cause heart problems.jlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02406877160422155356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-43511849912516405542011-10-31T04:01:55.924+02:002011-10-31T04:01:55.924+02:00the fact that he had lyme will cause him to be lac...the fact that he had lyme will cause him to be lactose intolerant.jlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02406877160422155356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-78504188119376314222011-10-27T20:19:41.078+03:002011-10-27T20:19:41.078+03:00I was unable to post this to the new Dodecad entry...I was unable to post this to the new Dodecad entry but it is relevant to this thread. Perhaps Dienekes would be kind enough to copy it over to the other blog.<br /><br />http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/10/eurasia7-calculator.html#comments<br /><br /><< [Kalash] proportions are consistent with previous results, showing them to be a "West Asian" population (62.4%) with substantial "South Asian" admixture (37.1%), and near-complete absence of any other genetic components. >><br /><br />And yet the Kalash show strong traces of blondism of the hair and eyes. (Search google images for "Kalash".) Does this allude to an (partial?) Asian origin of Nordics?<br /><br />And again we see that the West Asian ancestral component and the Atlantic_Baltic component are much closer to each other (0.028) than they are to the Southern [European?] (0.055/ 0.058). And they are nearly as close to the South Asian (0.06/ 0/065) as they are to the Southern. Moreover they have simimlar distances to all the other components -- while the other components do not have similar distances? The data thus seems to suggest a West Asian origin of the Atlantic_Baltic [North European?] component.<br /><br />The present analysis thus seems consistent with an Asian origin of the Indo-Europeans.apostateimpressionshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992369104954433139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-11099610545418927292011-10-24T09:38:03.975+03:002011-10-24T09:38:03.975+03:00Maju,
I know we disagree on this, and one could ...Maju, <br /><br />I know we disagree on this, and one could write a book on it (and people have). So, here just a few points <i>specifically for most of north/central Europe (west of the steppe/plains)</i>:<br /><br />Firstly, re timelines for people, culture, and language (IE) from the East to reach the areas west of the plains: <br /><br />If it is supposed to be Globular Amphora (GA), then (i) it is way too late given modern linguistic timings of the IE tree, and (ii) contradicts the fact that the area west of it a few hundred years later developed its own early and mid bronze age with documented trade and cultural exchange from the south (specifically over the Alps and with the Balkans/ Greece), not the east. Finally, GA has cultural continuity with the local Funnelbeaker (FB) offshoot of LBK, starts with megalithic graves and ends in "Hockergäber, no Tumuli - none of that is eastern. Associated cattle graves are a cultural continuity with FB, not of eastern origin, then, either.<br /><br />It can't be Baden either, because besides the timing issue, that is associated with the northern Balkans and not the east, and they had a mix of regular burials and cremations. Also, Baden has cultural continuity with the local Lengyel offshoot of LBK.<br /><br />If it is the bronze age, you have the problem that tumuli with the characteristic grave position don't occur until 600 years after the local early bronze age.<br /><br />Secondly, the proposed "driving agents" and supposedly introduced cultural items are mostly flawed in this region:<br /><br />- there are almost no warrior-chieftains graves; society was largely egalitarian (as before and after, even into the iron age, north of the Celts)<br /><br />- horses could not be used effectively because of heavy forestation, heavy soil, and expensive/unavailable winter fodder. And indeed, north of the Danube horses were extremely rare until Roman times.<br /><br />- chariots are equally useless and indeed were not used. The first usage of chariots is in south, in the celtic region, and not until the iron age.<br /><br />- the early bronze age is local there, with local production and import of raw materials from the north and the south, not the east.<br /><br />- there is local cultural continuity; very few things are adopted from the east (tumuli graves with characteristic position, but there are also cremations), most items are imported/adopted from the south, or are evolutions from local cultural continuity.<br /><br />Basically, by the time you get to western Poland, there is almost nothing left of any sorts of Kurgan (or hybrid) cultural package. Most importantly, anything that could have been causal in forcing the adoption of a new language is lacking.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-76064598592038212412011-10-21T22:55:24.065+03:002011-10-21T22:55:24.065+03:00"Perhaps R1b simply didnt use kurgans by the ..."Perhaps R1b simply didnt use kurgans by the time it spread across western and central Europe?<br />"<br /><br />They had their own style of kurgans, often referred to as barrows. I believe there is evidence of the "western" style in Portugal as early as 4000 BC. Don't recall the exact date of the earliest, but I believe it to be neolithic, and certainly pre-dating some of the alleged migrations put forth by kurganists.AWoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14966600445259901063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-47511331825492624082011-10-21T22:13:12.733+03:002011-10-21T22:13:12.733+03:00No, Eurologist: the assessment of the Kurgan model...No, Eurologist: the assessment of the Kurgan model being the only one with clear archaeological (and, importantly, logical) support is still alive and kicking and looks like is going to be the case for the time to come. <br /><br />Just because the theory was conceived some decades ago, it does not mean it is obsolete, that same that just because some crackpot pseudo-scholars with some wizzy-izzy ideas based on nothing have just published something a few weeks or years ago does not make it more solid. <br /><br />The Kurgan model is the only one that explains everything and does it well. Even other models like Renfrew's unsustainable hypothesis on farmer Indoeuropeans, require Kurgans to be an actor (but fail to explain how Kurgans would become Indoeuropeanized). <br /><br />And Jim: while Gimbutas may have gone a step too far in the sociological interpretation of the Kurgan invasions (she may still have some reason but in that aspect she was surely idealizing the farmer societies and, in a negative sense also, the pastoralist societies as well), this says absolutely nothing against the Kurgan model as such. <br /><br />It's not a fashion: it's archaeologically solid like no other model is. If you know the archaeology you must admit to that, while most who oppose it are not into archaeology in fact. <br /><br />... "it doesn't fit the archaeological timeline"...<br /><br />Why not? The archaeological timeline is self-consistent and most linguistic models of IE fit with that archaeological timeline extremely well.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-88287255736166273472011-10-21T18:42:52.716+03:002011-10-21T18:42:52.716+03:00"E, you may be right, I am no expert. However..."E, you may be right, I am no expert. However, the Kurgan theory (first formulated in the 1950s by Marija Gimbutas) is still "the most widely accepted scenario of Indo-European origins" afaik. "<br /><br />It may be widely accpeptred, but you don't specifiy who it is that is accepting it. it was wildly poboluar in the women's Studies set because they liked the scenario of a peaceful Mother-worhiping civiilzation overwhelmend by charriot-riding patriarchalist barabrians, maybe it gratified their bodice-ripper fantasies. The problem is it doesn't fit the archaeological timeline and it doens; explain the language situation very well. Forone thig, the kurgan culture is late enough to have benn Iranian-speaking, so that elaves you with a whole bunch of non-Iranian IE langauges to explain, and all their necessarily earlier differentiation.<br /><br />"Their migrational tendency would not exclude the imitation of their culture; perhaps their migrational success even promoted its imitation."<br /><br />This makes sense and there are modern examples of this. The wide-spread adoption of English is not all due to migratory expansion.Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07187836541591828806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-2133536404808845062011-10-21T15:50:50.883+03:002011-10-21T15:50:50.883+03:00However, the Kurgan theory (first formulated in th...However, the Kurgan theory (first formulated in the 1950s by Marija Gimbutas) is still "the most widely accepted scenario of Indo-European origins"<br /><br />That assessment is likely based on reviews and books that were written 10 - 30 or more years ago, not on current research. I really don't know anyone who currently is supportive of this. It simply does not match at all European time lines and European evolutions of cultures, and also does not match quantitative dating and relatedness of IE languages, by a long shot.<br /><br />It seems more likely that IE has an Anatolian/Balkan origin ~8,000-9,000 ya, and few peoples had any significant impact on European genes after that (except that early Danubian haplotypes diminished in relation to local ones, and R1a asserted its already prevalent presence in the East).eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-43136399594437522002011-10-20T19:57:17.780+03:002011-10-20T19:57:17.780+03:00Jim: "This is as much support for an IE repla...Jim: "<i>This is as much support for an IE replacement in Egypt as in Europe.</i>"<br /><br />J, another line of argument would be that the archeology (and language, religion) suggests a mobile and militaristic people liable to invade, conquer and slaughter. That is not to say that the spread of their culture to a particular region always indicates that they conquered that region. Their migrational tendency would not exclude the imitation of their culture; perhaps their migrational success even promoted its imitation. <br /><br />Jim: "<i>What spread of kurgans across Europe are you referring to? I don't recall seeing any in Germany anywhere, and I doubt that there are any in France or on Britain either.</i>"<br /><br />Maju: "<i>I don't like the explanation too much but what those data say is that WA+NE are a relatively homogeneous cluster that are located equally related to other West Eurasians and to South Asians (while South Asians and other West Eurasians are not that akin to each other).</i>"<br /><br />Av Jo: "<i>I always heard that the Indo-Europeans/Aryans came from Russia which, of course, stretches from Europe to Asia. This analysis would seem to back up this theory.</i>"<br /><br />J, M and AJ, maybe the spread of Kurgan archeology and the closeness of the West Asian and North European ancestral components point to the expansions of R1a and R1b into Europe. Maciamo argues that while R1a and R1b have common roots in Asia, between the Black Sea and the Hindu Kush, they nevertheless formed separate populations, with R1a to the NE of R1b. R1a then expanded NW into eastern Europe and R1b NW into western Europe. See Maciamo here: <a rel="nofollow">http://eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#R1b</a> Perhaps R1b simply didnt use kurgans by the time it spread across western and central Europe?<br /><br />Eurologist: "<i>archaeology doesn't support massive invasions</i>"<br /><br />E, you may be right, I am no expert. However, the Kurgan theory (first formulated in the 1950s by Marija Gimbutas) is still "the most widely accepted scenario of Indo-European origins" afaik. <a rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis</a>apostateimpressionshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992369104954433139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-683983082643779002011-10-20T11:42:05.974+03:002011-10-20T11:42:05.974+03:00Also, one should emphasize that the Fst distances ...Also, one should emphasize that the Fst distances are those of the <i>components</i> - not those of <i>populations</i>. That is, today most southern Europeans (except the Basque and Sardinians) have a by far larger western Asian component than Northern Europeans do (some of them have almost none).eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-19544815680369779562011-10-20T06:03:25.326+03:002011-10-20T06:03:25.326+03:00apostateimpressions,
I wouldn't read too much...apostateimpressions,<br /><br />I wouldn't read too much into such small differences when the distances are likely dominated by the first 4 largest dimensions which have zero to do with Europe and West Asia (Amerind, Papuan, East Asian, and Subsaharan Africa). That is, on that scale, I would rather trust an analysis that only included components 1, 3, 5, 8, 11 and 12.<br /><br />As to your other comments, archaeology doesn't support massive invasions, and I don't think y-DNA and mt-DNA do, either. With quantitative methods, IE is dated at ~5,000 years <i>before</i> the central European bronze age. Likewise, central European bronze age predates strict "Kurgan" burial practices by at least 600 years (while, conversely, more general Tumulus burials are known from long before the bronze age). This is a very slow transition, and not a homogeneous culture, at all, but one that from the outset inherits the pre-existing local differences. There are four major groups (and up to twelve smaller divisions) in Germany alone, surrounding the major river systems. The middle bronze age there is also very egalitarian, with almost no indications of any hierarchical structure - the opposite of what you would expect if invasions were going on.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-2236267414510643882011-10-20T02:01:23.795+03:002011-10-20T02:01:23.795+03:00I recall that the North European ancestral compone...<i>I recall that the North European ancestral component seems to be closer to the West Asian (0.036) than to the Mediterranean (0.057) -- and also closer than the Mediterranean is to West Asian (0.062) -- in Dienekes' Admixture analysis. The componential analysis thus seems to suggest an origin of the Northern European ancestral component in Asia</i><br /><br />I always heard that the Indo-Europeans/Aryans came from Russia which, of course, stretches from Europe to Asia. This analysis would seem to back up this theory.Average Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12203996329459638052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-25262807251547474562011-10-20T00:44:52.607+03:002011-10-20T00:44:52.607+03:00@Apostate:
"I recall that the North European...@Apostate:<br /><br />"I recall that the North European ancestral component seems to be closer to the West Asian (0.036)"<br /><br />That's a most keen observation. In fact in all that table only another pair falls so close to each other East and SE Asians (0.034), all the other pairs are at least x1.58 distant (North-South Euro: 0.057, there are a large number of pairs in the 0.06-0.07 range). <br /><br />Not just that, the North Euro-West Asian pair is similarly close to the South Europe and Red Sea as they are (both) to Kalash and Indians. <br /><br />All this is very curious, even if I have no idea of how exactly to interpret this. One possibility might be to argue that the North European component is largely 'Neolithic' (from West Asia), which also influenced genetically (but to lesser degree) other areas, including India. <br /><br />I don't like the explanation too much but what those data say is that WA+NE are a relatively homogeneous cluster that are located equally related to other West Eurasians and to South Asians (while South Asians and other West Eurasians are not that akin to each other). <br /><br />Intriguing at least.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-9035850854476533902011-10-19T22:29:48.990+03:002011-10-19T22:29:48.990+03:00"And of course there is also the spread of st..."And of course there is also the spread of steppe Bronze Age technology; wheels, swords, chariots -- which suggests the migration of a highly mobile and militarised people."<br /><br />This is as much support for an IE replacement in Egypt as in Europe.<br /><br />"I am no expert in IE history but perhaps someone more knowledgeable could say something about the spread of the Kurgan (mound) burial culture across Europe at the onset of the Bronze Age and how it replaced the former..."<br /><br />What spread of kurgans across Europe are you referring to? I don't recall seeing any in Germany anywhere, and I doubt that there are any in France or on Britain either.Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07187836541591828806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-11899954570811081092011-10-19T21:22:19.397+03:002011-10-19T21:22:19.397+03:00Just so you know, the Tunisian one is me. :)Just so you know, the Tunisian one is me. :)Itaihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04202124904420960415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-87844147825838126682011-10-19T20:42:54.756+03:002011-10-19T20:42:54.756+03:00Europe is incredibly close to each other on a worl...<i>Europe is incredibly close to each other on a world-wide basis</i><br /><br />@ Eurologist, yes but I recall that the North European ancestral component seems to be closer to the West Asian (0.036) than to the Mediterranean (0.057) -- and also closer than the Mediterranean is to West Asian (0.062) -- in Dienekes' Admixture analysis. The componential analysis thus seems to suggest an origin of the Northern European ancestral component in Asia.<br /><br /><a rel="nofollow">http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/12/human-genetic-variation-first.html</a><br /><br /><i>archeology tells us that nothing particular happened at the very, very long onset of the Chalcolithic bronze age in Europe</i><br /><br />I am no expert in IE history but perhaps someone more knowledgeable could say something about the spread of the Kurgan (mound) burial culture across Europe at the onset of the Bronze Age and how it replaced the former, millennia-old burial culture. Burial items also reflected the IE transition, with religious, cultural and militaristic items typical of the steppes suddenly replacing the old Neolithic items in graves. Also the pottery suddenly changes to a steppe form after a rigidly stable form had totally dominated in Europe for thousands of years. And of course there is also the spread of steppe Bronze Age technology; wheels, swords, chariots -- which suggests the migration of a highly mobile and militarised people. The same is also suggested by how a militaristic steppe religion suddenly replaced a more peaceful Neolithic religion in Europe. Moreover, it is thought that the Black Sea Deluge may have occassioned the IE invasions.<br /><br />So we have not only a complete change in language across nearly all of Europe -- but also a complete change in the economy, military, religion and in the burial and pottery culture of Europe at the onset of the Bronze Age.<br /><br />That would seem to strongly suggest that the bearers of a militaristic IE culture largely replaced the bearers of an old agricultural culture in much of Europe. Hopefully we will soon see to what extent the genetic record supports that account.apostateimpressionshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992369104954433139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-32431048058714464132011-10-19T17:23:21.403+03:002011-10-19T17:23:21.403+03:00in FTDNA Maghreb Project
there is Two Moroccans o...in FTDNA Maghreb Project<br /><br />there is Two Moroccans on G2a4<br />and one Tunisian !<br /><br />I don't know why some Europeans Ignore totally North Africa ?<br /><br />the most europeans who have G2a4 are germans " two cases" on G_FTDNA ProjectAzertyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01455062388153757590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-5601648539540162822011-10-19T14:11:30.710+03:002011-10-19T14:11:30.710+03:00'he is more related to people living in southe...'he is more related to people living in southern Europe today than to those in North Africa or the Middle East'<br />Really? If he is mainly "mediterranean", than he IS related to Middle East and North African populations too.<br /><br />Anyway, funny to see he lacks the european lactase tolerance gene while I have it (and I am Berber).idurarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02495983806915661998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-41721977813099599552011-10-19T14:02:33.874+03:002011-10-19T14:02:33.874+03:00We will have to see the actual data.
OK, I put my...<i>We will have to see the actual data.</i><br /><br />OK, I put myself up on the line here, but regardless of <i>quantitative</i> outcome, I would like my comment to be taken seriously.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-43074700535901769132011-10-19T13:38:00.395+03:002011-10-19T13:38:00.395+03:00I completely disagree. We are talking 10% to 20% d...<i>I completely disagree. We are talking 10% to 20% differences, here, for most of Europe.</i><br /><br />We will have to see the actual data.<br /><br />For example, will the clines be:<br /><br />Otzi...Sardinian...............North_Italian<br /><br />or,<br /><br />Sardinian...Otzi...............North_Italian<br /><br />?Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-87559002537880246782011-10-19T13:32:37.942+03:002011-10-19T13:32:37.942+03:00Yes, if Oetzi's *autosomal* is Med to the same...<i>Yes, if Oetzi's *autosomal* is Med to the same, almost total extent that Sardinia still is, then the implication would seem to be that there has been <b>absolutely massive genetic replacement in central and western Europe since the end of the Neolithic</b>.</i><br /><br />I completely disagree. We are talking 10% to 20% differences, here, for most of Europe.<br /><br />Firstly, Europe is incredibly close to each other on a world-wide basis, to start with. For example, by any test or measure, Germany and Hungary score extremely close, even jointly with the surrounding Slavic countries (Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia). Again, y-DNA and three different languages had almost zero impact on autosomal.<br /><br />Secondly, as I stated above, it is silly to assume that there was no diffusion in 5,000 years. You don't need "massive migrations" if people can walk 20 miles and intermarry.<br /><br />Thirdly, archeology tells us that nothing particular happened at the very, very long onset of the Chalcolithic bronze age in Europe. People largely stayed were they were. There simply were no migrations of any significant size or impact.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-64822302614880659292011-10-19T04:59:32.716+03:002011-10-19T04:59:32.716+03:00Yes, if Oetzi's *autosomal* is Med to the same...Yes, if Oetzi's *autosomal* is Med to the same, almost total extent that Sardinia still is, then the implication would seem to be that there has been absolutely massive genetic replacement in central and western Europe since the end of the Neolithic. Sardinia -- and Oetzi -- represent one of several autosomal components in modern Europeans, who do not descend principally from Med Neolithics, let alone Cro-Magnon. <br /><br />Presumably this alludes to IE R1b migration from the Near East during the Bronze Age, given the age and distribution of the R1b clades? The genetic structure of modern Europeans dates from the Bronze Age, with later Roman occupation and Celtic, Germanic and Slavic migrations within Europe. Cro-Magnon represents only a small and as yet undetermined fraction of European ancestry.apostateimpressionshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992369104954433139noreply@blogger.com