tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post5717189277465400583..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Lactase persistence and natural selection (Sverrisdóttir et al. 2014)Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-5288353206123351952014-07-06T20:56:25.841+03:002014-07-06T20:56:25.841+03:00@ Simon W -- Sorry. I didn’t see your comment. I ...@ Simon W -- Sorry. I didn’t see your comment. I hope you see this reply.<br /><br />You wrote: “...I don't think that it suggests that the Corded people were impoverished and living on the edge. At least not more than other Neolithic cultures.”<br /><br />Very few Corded Ware settlements have been found, but the one at Wattendorf-Motzenstein yielded a rather low amount of detectable food remains, even for a small average number of inhabitants, over a period of some 200 years.<br /><br />“Neolithic” settlements vary a great deal in the overall resources available to the particular community, and of course a good deal of this is connected to location, population, technology and trade.<br /><br />I’d suggest a better comparison is with what was happening elsewhere at the pretty much the same time. <br /><br />About 1500 miles away, at almost exactly the same time as Wattendorf-Motzenstein (2660-2470 cal BCE), the 4th Dynasty was in operation in Egypt (2575-2465 BCE). This is when the great pyramid at Giza was built. In the Giza pyramid work settlement alone, one that probably lasted 10 years, I believe Richard Redding and his team recovered perhaps a 100 times more domesticated animal bones than has been recovered from all Corded Ware sites, burial and otherwise, put together. And it appears that all that food was surplus.<br /><br />This huge difference in resources reflects of course a very large difference in population and technology. But it also reflects I think the fact that food production in Corded Ware was very limited in success in keeping people fed.<br />And this would also account for the wide geographic spread of Corded Ware. It could not accommodate any kind of population density.LivoniaGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05589404219598229067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-22699362289036557572014-02-07T13:29:00.514+02:002014-02-07T13:29:00.514+02:00@ Unknown
Your link to the study on the Corded Wa...@ Unknown<br /><br />Your link to the study on the Corded Ware site of Wattendorf-Motzenstein is certainly interesting, so thank you for providing this. However, I don't think that it suggests that the Corded people were impoverished and living on the edge. At least not more than other Neolithic cultures.Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-62146938597381754522014-02-06T14:38:41.438+02:002014-02-06T14:38:41.438+02:00Maju,
All of what you state is perfectly true for...Maju,<br /><br />All of what you state is perfectly true for the SW/ W Atlantic region - including a diet of acorns in famine, as well as (almost) all-year-round greens. So, that's important to contemplate considering early high adult lactose tolerance, there.<br /><br />On the flip side, in C to N Europe, Acorns historically play less of a role; sometimes roasted beechnuts were used as a substitute to grain. And due to the generally wet climate, cows were much more common than goats, and cow's milk a staple (while goats milk and seasonal sheep's milk was almost always made into cheese but very rarely drunk).<br /><br />My emphasis on women is due to the known detrimental effect of folate deficiency on successful pregnancies and healthy children, combined with the numerous additional nutritional benefits of milk. A multiplier, of sorts - especially if it turns out that my hunch that the immune system is also involved, proves correct.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-79026992214514204092014-02-06T12:20:24.487+02:002014-02-06T12:20:24.487+02:00@Chad: a most interesting reference for this discu...@Chad: a most interesting reference for this discussion, thanks. <br /><br />Not only shows that in Central-West Germany (there are several towns named Dalheim in Hesse and Rhineland, not sure which one it is) modern-like LP alleles were already established c. 1200 CE, but, by citation of Nagy 2011, it reminds us that further to the SE, in Hungary, LP prevalence was still low just a few centuries before (although higher than among Neolithic farmers). <br /><br />Therefore there may have been various different localized processes leading to the prevalence of LP alleles and phenotype, each with its own chronology. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-91680813940684549192014-02-05T16:25:52.933+02:002014-02-05T16:25:52.933+02:00Study of Medieval Europeans with high lactose tole...Study of Medieval Europeans with high lactose tolerance; indicating that the Plague had nothing to do with the increase in lactose tolerance, as medieval and modern rates are similar.<br /><br />http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0086251Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13876988480444711159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-87683763582195821652014-02-05T03:32:26.490+02:002014-02-05T03:32:26.490+02:00@Eurologist: I can think of an scenario in which t...@Eurologist: I can think of an scenario in which the main staple food for the farmer masses was acorn bread (or similar: oat meal, regular bread, chestnut dishes) and goat milk. This is actually for all I know a historical scenario in fact, just that I'm extrapolating it to earlier but very much comparable times. In such conditions much of the caloric intake would come from the bread-equivalent but it's aminoacid quality would be very poor. This is a well known problem in vegan diets which has to be managed but is non-existent in ovo-lacto-vegetarian diets, where milk and eggs provide good quality proteins and other nutrients less common in vegetals sources (assimilable iron for instance, vitamin B12, possibly other stuff). Additionally milk also would have provided extra fat (more calories in essence). <br /><br />A diet that would also include legumes would be much less risky but I'm not sure if legumes were available in all situations and seasons. That's something to research but, for what I have read about old style basic diets in Western Europe, legumes were not staple, while goat milk was instead. Often even cereals were scarce, being replaced with wild nuts like acorns or chestnuts, but goat milk was there readily available all year long for almost nothing, and hence for all, even the poorest ones. <br /><br />In such situations, lactose intolerant people would have suffered a severe disadvantage, as they could not drink the most readily available food, a good quality one incidentally. <br /><br />Of course episodes of famine (in addition to likely severe class inequality in food access) may have been punctual episodes of acceleration of the selective sweep.<br /><br />... "greens (not available in the winter)"... <br /><br />I am pretty sure that several greens like lettuce and dandelion (edible), as well as other "herbs", are available year long in Atlantic climate. We have lost a lot of traditional such wild vegetable foods but they were once common. <br /><br />... "nuts (not available outside the fall and not if forest harvesting like hunting is, as often was the case, only allowed by the ruling class)"...<br /><br />I have on good account that acorn and chestnut bread (or puree) were eaten often instead of the preferred cereal bread by poor people in Spain and the Basque Country respectively. I can only imagine that "privatization" of forests happened only rather late, as they became rarer. <br /><br />"So, perhaps, women had milk and grains available, but not much else."<br /><br />That's in essence my point. Other foods (other than greens) were available for many only occasionally, if at all, not enough to provide a healthy diet without the milk supplement. But that would not affect just women but the general population (not sure why you say "women", I guess that's because they provide for the nutritional needs of babies with their body, what would have a multiplying effect). Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-10164991184547060752014-02-04T10:48:23.835+02:002014-02-04T10:48:23.835+02:00Your nutritional link only makes sense provided th...<i>Your nutritional link only makes sense provided that the availability of folic acid was low.</i><br /><br />Maju,<br /><br />Well, you are the one who brought famine into the discussion. If milk played any role at all, you could think of a scenario where beans, peas and lentils had failed or become scarce enough to only be available to the ruling class or male soldiers. Grains are not particularly high in folic acid, and people who don't have much to eat but grains and milk might not be so smart and vary their diet with greens (not available in the winter) or nuts (not available outside the fall and not if forest harvesting like hunting is, as often was the case, only allowed by the ruling class).<br /><br />So, perhaps, women had milk and grains available, but not much else. The ones who only had water and grains certainly did not produce many healthy children.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-55915346003087128532014-02-03T04:45:00.947+02:002014-02-03T04:45:00.947+02:00I apologize if this is a double post. I lost my co...I apologize if this is a double post. I lost my connection a bit ago.<br /><br />Vitamin D is important in absorption of calcium.<br /><br />http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminD-HealthProfessional/<br /><br />There certainly is a link with the lactose, folate, and skin coloring. Grains sure appears to have made a big difference in the skin color. I wonder what color Europeans might be today if they did not give up the strict meat and fish diet.<br /><br />There has been a four to five fold increase in Rickets in Britain since 1997. I believe that most of it was in the darker complexioned immigrants though. It is on the increase in America as well.Chadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118937611048574688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-24810609674469780462014-02-03T00:20:14.469+02:002014-02-03T00:20:14.469+02:00a lot of interesting posts - ty alla lot of interesting posts - ty allGreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-6450486669571061852014-02-02T23:12:20.041+02:002014-02-02T23:12:20.041+02:00@Eurologis:
Effectively folic acid (folate) is al...@Eurologis:<br /><br />Effectively folic acid (folate) is almost certainly the main factor in the dynamic equilibrium of human skin color leading originally to dark skin and later to the retention of at least the ability to tan in most "white" people. Skin cancer may be a co-factor but it would seem to weight less. My reference was other (http://www.pnas.org/content/107/suppl.2/8962) but same result.<br /><br />Anyhow folic acid is readily available in many foods, notably green leaf vegetables, fruits, nuts, legumes, meat, eggs, fish, grains, etc., as well a milk and various dairies. Considering the ability to tan in summer (and get paler in winter) and the general availability of this nutrient, I'd say that attributing the massive genetic swap to just folates looks quite unlikely. <br /><br />Your nutritional link only makes sense provided that the availability of folic acid was low. You just have to read the abstract:<br /><br />"Design: Thirty-one young women were fed low-folate diets"...<br /><br />...<br /><br />@"Unknown":<br /><br />Your link seems interesting but we have to understand that, while in Central Europe the percentage of LP phenotype is rather high to very high, the rs4988235-T variant is quite lower, so at least part of the Central European LP phenotype must be explained by some other unknown gene. <br /><br />The areas of highest rs4988235-T are Scandinavia, Britain, Ireland, the Basque Country, Brittany and other parts of SW France. Of these only Scandinavia was affected by Corded Ware. <br /><br />Ref.: http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2148-10-36.pdfMajuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-63621338239989246532014-02-02T22:52:03.826+02:002014-02-02T22:52:03.826+02:00@Simon:
Not sure if you understood well the situa...@Simon:<br /><br />Not sure if you understood well the situation in those Chalcolithic "military" necropolis of the southernmost Basque Country: not only the T allele is found in some individuals (not most) but it is almost always found in the diploid TT form (while the C allele is found almost only in the CC diploid form). So in essence those "soldiers" included two almost unmixed populations: a TT one and (the majority) a CC one, with only rare instances of admixed individuals (CT). <br /><br />I titled that entry "caught in the act" because it really underlines the existence of two different and mostly unadmixed source populations for those cemeteries, based on the linkage disequilibrium of the LP allele. <br /><br />I can't know which populations are, I just more or less arbitrarily described the majority CC group as "foreign" because it does not fit with modern Basque LP frequencies and because, overall, the cemeteries seem rather different from the (pre-)historical Basque sequence of mtDNA pools, with much greater frequencies of haplogroup K and other "Neolithic" ones, like J and "T/X" (sic) and lower ones of H and U. Following the same logic I considered the smaller TT subpopulation to maybe have local origins. But I could be completely wrong in my assessment, especially considering that the Atapuerca farmer was CC. <br /><br />In any case the central point is that, because of the strong linkage disequilibrium found, at that moment, some 5000-4500 years ago, there was already somewhere a TT population, apparent as the smaller subpopulation in those two military sites. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-3402410926762186502014-02-02T20:34:46.981+02:002014-02-02T20:34:46.981+02:00Maju's first comment is quite interesting; it ...Maju's first comment is quite interesting; it reminds me of this paper showing that the cultivation of cereals in Britain did not last, and that between 3300 and 1500 BC Britons became largely pastoral, reverting only with a major upsurge of agricultural activity in the Middle Bronze Age:<br /><br />http://dienekes.blogspot.ch/2012/10/the-winding-road-to-agriculture.html<br /><br />These first documented instances of the T allele Maju mentioned occured at about the same time frame, 3000 and 2500 BC. The foreign population in those war cemeteries in the Basque country appears to have been more Early Farmer-descenced, judging from their mt-DNA. Yet, I think, it may have been them who introduced the T allele to the Basque country – possibly they didn't bring their women along, so their mt-DNA didn't have much of an impact on the Basque gene pool – the T allele on the other hand was afterwards favoured by selection.Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-84263801693673151462014-02-02T13:55:30.105+02:002014-02-02T13:55:30.105+02:00Light skin color (relative to received sunlight) i...Light skin color (relative to received sunlight) is only possible with sufficient folate intake. Milk contains 5-10 microgram per 100 g:<br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10759136<br />so, an individual consuming 1l of milk a day (not unusual in Central and Northern Europe) receives 50-100 micrograms a day. While recommended intake is 300-400 micrograms, ill effects clearly are produced at a much lower rate of intake. Drinking milk can prevent this. Conversely, given a certain amount from other sources, milk intake allows for a lighter skin color, and thus better vitamin D production.<br /><br />Folate-binding proteins in milk may also play a role, and may help avoid destruction by sunlight in the skin.<br /><br />See also: <br /><br />http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/80/6/1565.full<br /><br />"Meals prepared for the milk group contained three 245-mL servings of skim milk daily...<br /><br />erythrocyte folate concentrations declined only in the nonmilk group and remained unchanged in the milk group"<br />eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-83848939994420018202014-02-02T04:56:15.377+02:002014-02-02T04:56:15.377+02:00Deprivation and poverty.
Milk is all that’s lef...Deprivation and poverty. <br /><br />Milk is all that’s left. I guess you already ate the last goat or cow.<br /><br />That certainly could have happened to Corded Ware folk.<br />Compared to what was going on in the south, it looks like at least <br />some of them were impoverished and living on the edge.<br /><br /><br />https://www.academia.edu/1347342/A_Revision_of_Corded_Ware_Settlement_Pattern_-_New_Results_from_the_Central_European_Low_Mountain_Range<br /><br />Corded ware would certainly be a candidate...<br />“...in famine conditions, such as when crops fail, they are likely to have eaten all the fermented milk foods, leaving only the more high-lactose products. This would have caused the usual lactose intolerance symptoms such as diarrhea. Diarrhea in in healthy people is not usually life-threatening, but in severely malnourished individuals it certainly can be. So famine could have led to episodes of very strong natural selection favoring lactase persistence.”<br />http://www.uu.se/en/media/news/article/?id=3154&area=2,10,16&typ=artikel&na=&lang=en<br /><br />But around the same time there were lactase persistent people in Iberia,<br />who would probably pass that mutation along to Celtic-speakers and western Germans who followed them. 27% of a population is a huge number when everything else is coming up zip.<br /><br />And BTW I don’t agree with much David Anthony says, but I have to agree that “Kurgan Culture” is an outdated and useless term that does nothing for the question of Indo-European language origins or archaeology in general.LivoniaGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05589404219598229067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-58382516077005233722014-02-01T20:23:18.763+02:002014-02-01T20:23:18.763+02:00@Chad:
There are two main known effects of vitam...@Chad: <br /><br />There are two main known effects of vitamin D, one is bone formation and has been known for long, its lack producing rickets. However in the last years a key role of vitamin D in early brain development has been highlighted as well, and I'd dare say it has been even more important in evolutionary terms, leading to "white" pigmentation at latitudes far away from the ancestral tropics. <br /><br />I have been collecting in my blogs some of the relevant links:<br />→ http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080421072159.htm<br />→ http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/06/100621125137.htm<br /><br />Other recently understood roles of vitamin D are:<br /><br />· Disease prevention and recovery: → http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090821211007.htm<br />· Cholesterol control: → http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090818182053.htm<br />· Prevention of urinary infections: → http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0015580<br />· Prevention of allergies: → http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/110224103244.htm<br /><br />I don't know if calcium absorption is linked somehow to all these effects or only to the issue or bones (as I would say on shallow inspection) but what is clear is that vitamin D is crucial for much more than the classical issue of rickets. <br /><br />So, unless it can somehow be demonstrated that calcium is key in all these aspects, I would focus on proteins and fats instead, which is what natural milk actually has to offer to people with limited access to food (typically poor people). <br /><br />And that's why I emphasize goats, because these hardy "cheap" animals would have been available to nearly all people, unlike cows most likely. However the ability to digest milk, whatever its source, was available only individually on random genetic basis. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-65289053002069898552014-02-01T04:44:41.901+02:002014-02-01T04:44:41.901+02:00@Maju
I had questions on the vitamin D in the mil...@Maju<br /><br />I had questions on the vitamin D in the milk. I know that vitamin D is important in absorbing calcium. Maybe the pressure to drink milk as necessity, brought about even lighter skin to absorb the calcium, or it was sorely lacking in their diet. <br /><br />I'm not sure how it all plays together, but the links between the lightest skin and highest lactose tolerance are there.Chadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118937611048574688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-84937934676668325602014-01-30T22:21:29.397+02:002014-01-30T22:21:29.397+02:00@Chad:
The first study is a mere simulation. I h...@Chad: <br /><br />The first study is a mere simulation. I have meet it a couple of times but I fail to see the merit or at least the evidence that could back the simulation. The later is a letter speculating around the cheese-making sieve of Poland found last year and makes some blatantly unfounded claims, notably: <br /><br />"By the late Neolithic and early Bronze Age, around 5,000 years ago, the LP allele was prevalent across most of northern and central Europe"...<br /><br />Where's the evidence of that claim? I mentioned ago the first known aDNA instances of the T allele (not at all prevalent yet, at least in the sampled sites) and these are already deep in the Chalcolithic (sometimes confusingly lumped into Late Neolithic or Bronze Age in English). All Neolithic samples we know of, very especially in Central Europe, are LP negative. The only "evidence" is the abundance of cattle bones but nobody really knows if these were used for traction, meat or dairying (and if dairying if the produce was raw milk or rather cheese, a friendly food for most lactose intolerant people). <br /><br />Also:<br /><br />... "milk may have helped (...) because of its relatively high concentration of vitamin D"...<br /><br />What is a blatantly false claim: milk has only small amounts of vitamin D (unless industrially enriched). If that would be the reason, people would have focused on fish, not milk, because fish is the only relevant dietary source of vit. D. <br /><br />So I think that all these scholars are very much confused, like trying to hit a piñata many meters away from the target but still believing they are right on it (to the hilarity of the spectators).<br /><br />They say that "just because it's published in Nature, it does not mean it's wrong". But it does not mean it's right either. Certainly not in this case.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-17813924858514250782014-01-30T19:59:02.391+02:002014-01-30T19:59:02.391+02:00The Brits and Scandinavians have the highest skin ...The Brits and Scandinavians have the highest skin reflectance and lactose tolerance. Vitamin d is needed to digest calcium. There may be some kind of connection.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13876988480444711159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-20868987552440993692014-01-30T06:05:17.753+02:002014-01-30T06:05:17.753+02:00http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/09082...http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090827202513.htm<br /><br />http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/08/130828092010.htm<br /><br />Maybe some of this will offer some insight. Yogurt would've helped the transition to a diet with large amounts of cow milk. Chadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118937611048574688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-89359467446375766142014-01-29T21:37:00.634+02:002014-01-29T21:37:00.634+02:00You're partly right, War Lord, milk is a great...You're partly right, War Lord, milk is a great source of proteins and fat, much like meat. I realized the "elephant" in my second comment (some time after the one you quote), I believe, when I suggested that if milk was about the only decent source of calories and proteins available, then the positive selection makes sense. <br /><br />That implies sustained food scarcity, what brought me to the hidden (taboo?) issue of social classes, which arose precisely in the Chalcolithic, when we begin to spot some LP alleles. <br /><br />The rich would have generally no trouble in getting the best food, be it milk or whatever else, but for the impoverished masses of agricultural workers (the vast majority of the population until very recently) maybe their main source of protein and fat was goat milk (cows would have been to expensive to buy and keep for them, at least in many cases). <br /><br />Oat meal with milk, bread with milk, walnut bread with milk, acorn bread with milk... that was often the staple food for most people in the past. And in most cases the milk was produced by goats. <br /><br />"I think that acknowledging these relationships will mean one of the last nails to the grave of Marija Gimbutas' Kurgan theory".<br /><br />Not at all. One thing has no relation with the other: IEs did not bring the LP allele most likely and they did not cause such a massive genetic impact, especially in the West - their influence was in essence of cultural and linguistic assimilation by means of aristocratic domination, as corresponds to the barbarian conquerors of all times (think Mongols or their Turkic relatives for example, or Arabs too). The Kurgan model of IE expansion is extremely solid on archaeological grounds: this issue most likely has no relation with the LP allele, which shows rather the opposite cline (peaks to the West, not to the East). Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-19737811136532840502014-01-29T04:52:58.025+02:002014-01-29T04:52:58.025+02:00"The question is that, other than for calcium..."The question is that, other than for calcium, milk is not such an important source of nutrients, provided that alternative foods are available."<br /><br />LOL You are walking around a big elephant and you don't see him. Milk is a source of the best natural proteins that are available. It is a nutrient that has the most profound effect on physical growth. Nothing can't match it - only pigmeat comes close. It would be incredible, if lactose tolerance didn't mean a huge advantage for all populations, who bear this gene. And indeed, the sudden expansion of the Corded Ware folk must have been a direct consequence of this adaptation. You should see the comparison of stunted dwarfs from the Linear and Lengyel culture with Corded Ware people - it would open your eyes. <br /><br />I think that acknowledging these relationships will mean one of the last nails to the grave of Marija Gimbutas' Kurgan theory, because we can't suppose an overwhelming migration from the steppes to Central/North Europe just in a period, when lactose tolerant populations started to exploit their massive genetic advantage. War Lordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15170292788911414015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-69153730717901192142014-01-29T03:44:44.065+02:002014-01-29T03:44:44.065+02:00@Grey: Funnelbeaker only affected Northern Europe ...@Grey: Funnelbeaker only affected Northern Europe and parts of Central Europe. Everything West of the North Sea cannot be explained by it. Anyhow Funnelbeaker (other than in Denmark and maybe some nearby areas) was rather a "fashion" affecting several different cultures (late Danubian and early Kurgan alike). <br /><br />If anything it might explain the LP phenomenon in its very specific area: Northern Europe senso stricto, but never in the Atlantic Islands, SW Europe, etc.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-23119858193292372062014-01-28T03:45:38.076+02:002014-01-28T03:45:38.076+02:00"Blogger mm said...
Could You please suggest ..."Blogger mm said...<br />Could You please suggest any good genetic paper arguing against out of Africa theory?"<br /><br />There are none. The universal consensus among published authors of genetics papers is that modern humans originate in Africa. The only dispute among published authors of genetics papers is when modern humans left Africa which range from about 120,000 years ago on the early side to about 60,000 years ago on the late side.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-44900473134376945172014-01-28T01:34:46.462+02:002014-01-28T01:34:46.462+02:00@Maju
Fair enough. There are two arguments.
1. D...@Maju<br /><br />Fair enough. There are two arguments.<br /><br />1. Does Funnelbeaker represent a shift from forager/fisher to shifting forager/farmer which led to a dramatic expansion of the native forager population in northwest Europe around 5000-6000 years BP.<br /><br />2. When and where LP took off.<br /><br />I do tend to jumble the two arguments together.<br />Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-43649764130484826382014-01-27T12:03:31.620+02:002014-01-27T12:03:31.620+02:00"If the percentage of milk in a population..."If the percentage of milk in a population's diet is 5% does it matter if it is goats or cows?"<br /><br />What matters is that focusing on cows when most of the milk of Europe was produced by goats is absurd. <br /><br />"What matters is the percentage of milk in the total diet (or the percentage at critical times like winter)".<br /><br />That's true but hard or even impossible to measure without statistical data or, in most cases, even a sloppy historical annotation. <br /><br />For whatever is worth, oral accounts say that here a poor person's meal often was <br />"acorn bread and goat's milk". So maybe it was a matter of poverty, being goat's milk almost always available (but not meat or even bread). And that would be indeed a matter of life and death: drink milk or starve. <br /><br />That would add weight to goat's milk importance, because poor people could not afford cows but goats are cheap and hardy and even the poorest farmer surely had some.<br /><br />Maybe it's less a matter of ethnic ways of life and more of a social class way of life. If so, it makes all sense that lactose tolerance got fixated only since the Chalcolithic, when social stratification began. <br /><br />"The only thing you need to assume for that to occur is that compared to the *alternatives* available at the time in certain regions at a certain time that a cattle-centric milk drinking package produced more calories".<br /><br />Cattle (cows) was not (judging on medieval data) for dairying in most cases but for traction and meat. Also since the Chalcolithic (and more so in the Metal Ages) in many social realities it would have been owned by a growingly reduced class of privileged people. <br /><br />"Given the location of the main LP regions that is extremely easy to believe especially when you take into account we are talking about a forager type population density becoming shifting herders".<br /><br />The <a href="http://leherensuge.blogspot.com.es/2010/02/actual-lactase-persistence-more-common.html" rel="nofollow">LP concentration region of Europe</a> (considering only this allele, there are others less well known) is very large and includes all West and Northern Europe. Many of those areas (Britain, Basque Country, for example) were not particularly dedicated to cattle but to sheep herding instead. However, given that sheep only produce milk in certain seasons, it's doubtful that they are the real cause. <br /><br />"Yes, *provided* that alternative foods are available. That is the critical point. You need an environment where cattle are favored and other alternatives aren't both at the same time".<br /><br />Again: cattle is expensive and would not be available for the masses. If milk was to be a staple, it had to be goat milk.<br /><br />...<br /><br />Besides:<br /><br />"Unknown" said: "Goat’s milk is tolerated by only 40% of CMA (Cow’s Milk Allergic) children."<br /><br />Milk allergy and lactose intolerance are different things. Allergies are developed immune reactions, lactose intolerance is a genetic inability BY ADULTS (not children) to digest lactose (milk's sugar) and to a large extent a very normal thing (why would adults need to be able to digest milk before domestication?)Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.com