tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post5684244445637769123..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Ashkenazi Jewish matrilineages mainly of European originDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-79145277431153062462015-10-28T10:41:52.628+02:002015-10-28T10:41:52.628+02:00Why is nobody considering that the vast majority o...Why is nobody considering that the vast majority of Ashkenazi were murdered roughly 70 years ago, and that could seriously skew the results? Anthropologoically Hitler had very specific feature categorization that he targeted, all very Semetic features for that matter. Add to that the genocide by Stalin (who arguably killed more Jews than Hitler did), and you collectively have a loss of an estimated 80% of the Jewish Population of Europe.<br /><br />Regardless, a convert is a Jew halachically, and 4 converted women, are STILL Jews, so the entire arguement is moot.<br /><br />Need we remind folks, King David's granmother was a Moabite. . . ergo, not a Jew by blood, but Ruth was most unequivicably, Jewish.<br /><br />This whole race arguement needs to die a cold death. Jews can be from any admixture, anywehre, period.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03985851326210079783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-39085909551282141832015-05-13T00:45:20.037+03:002015-05-13T00:45:20.037+03:00The rare T2b6b with 7391C can give us a rather goo...The rare T2b6b with 7391C can give us a rather good example of our founding mothers, by the unavailable information as being "European" and that's all the detail provided to the public. <br /><br />Yet, in the Copernican Reassessment for the Homosapians we find a true rare decimation in this being Prehistoric Ashkenazi. <br /><br />Don't mind me, my playlist, or my confusion.. I'm aware of the facts *regardless* of being busy, gone much of the time, or simply bored.<br /><br />Would that point to a Prehistoric Morrano/Portugal referendum as being Tunisia/Yemenite or in fact Cape Verdean Moroccan? Not to mention Cochi, Kerala are the eldest and the Moroccan Quarters in Israel!!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07831733784375568070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-48472879567237139272014-11-09T23:38:29.716+02:002014-11-09T23:38:29.716+02:00Mothers DNA is unchanged..Mothers DNA is unchanged..Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02965944965796131041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-11172724563301735632014-10-17T23:34:26.262+03:002014-10-17T23:34:26.262+03:00"I'm told that any DNA from over 200 yrs ..."I'm told that any DNA from over 200 yrs ago is unlikely to be passed along??" <br /><br />Not much of it is passed along. Think about it. You have half your mother's DNA and half your father's. They have half of their respective mother's and father's, and so on. You therefore have, on average, one quarter of each of your grandparents' DNA. In 200 years, or 8 generations, you have, again on average, just one 252nd of each ancestor's DNA. However the mother's mitochondrial DNA is passed on virtually unchanged through the generations. That is the DNA this paper deals with. terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-1604266144005555322014-10-11T02:30:37.030+03:002014-10-11T02:30:37.030+03:00I realize this post is about DNA. I have to ask, t...I realize this post is about DNA. I have to ask, though: Isn't it just wrong to overlook cultural history when attempting to define who is, or is not a Jew? I appreciate very much what David Shalit had to say for that reason. If conversion doesn't matter, then why is/was it done? I have discovered some "Jewish" DNA in my family, but I can't say I'm Jewish, primarily because I wasn't raised as a Jew! I could convert, but as I am less and less impressed with religion, it would actually mean more to me socially and culturally. It seems there are several perspectives to everything nowadays.<br /><br />Another detail: I'm told that any DNA from over 200 yrs ago is unlikely to be passed along?? If that's the case, I fail to see how or why any of this matters. I can trace my antecedents back 200 yrs and then quit!Madmariehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16209071303598680554noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-13445081714158406862014-03-09T07:32:03.271+02:002014-03-09T07:32:03.271+02:00@pconroy I am t1a1 also and also Jewish, but from ...@pconroy I am t1a1 also and also Jewish, but from Western Austria and Eastern France. T is associated with the Vikings. My Great Grandmother had bright red hair, fair skin and blue eyes, as does my Aunt. My cousins and I all look Irish/English, fair skin, freckles, light eyes. My guess is the lineage is simple: came from Iceland to England and someone along the line fell in love with a Jewish guy. Since Jews were always on the move, they settled in western Austria and a Eastern France where they found communities. It's really that simple. Stormy Dayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01103787053777071011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-9619809098765968692014-01-30T09:50:02.047+02:002014-01-30T09:50:02.047+02:00Jews accept converts. These four women would have ...Jews accept converts. These four women would have been converts. All children from them would be 'real Jews'. King David's grandmother, Ruth, was a convert.<br />Approximately 1/3 of Pagan Berbers in what is today Morocco, converted to Judaism, in around the 5th century, pre-Islam, during the reign there of a Jewish Queen. Their descendents would be part of today's Sefardi Jews.<br />All 'real Jews'.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13453169901492793841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-56659751175907365072013-12-29T22:01:34.245+02:002013-12-29T22:01:34.245+02:00My paternal grandfather's mt line is T1. The ...My paternal grandfather's mt line is T1. The furthest maternal grandmother we can trace is Nadolsky, and they appear to have been from around Berdichev, Ukraine.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08107935439182682580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-28161849403735821832013-12-29T21:49:33.760+02:002013-12-29T21:49:33.760+02:00What was her theory?What was her theory?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08107935439182682580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-17951052556871214852013-10-23T18:40:27.881+03:002013-10-23T18:40:27.881+03:00Consider Phlebas, the Phoenician, T. S. Eliot woul...Consider Phlebas, the Phoenician, T. S. Eliot would have suggested.<br />All this discussions seems to neglect many previous papers.<br />What about the four Eves? or What if it is or it is not that Jewishness is more memetic that genetic? <br />Or what if there was a monotheistic proto-Jewish or Jewish presence in Europe even before the Roman Empire? <br />One interesting comment that I would like o pick is that ancient Jews were stateless people. By that I interpret self governed with no central far power.<br /> It seems that in this discussion we are talking about a tribal non centralized religious practice, but looking at it in terms of similarity to the centralized religions. There was no Vatican, Meca or London for Jews. Every tribe, every group had its own interpretations and autonomy.<br /> I like to deal with the idea that there was a special reason for some Jews in Iberia to go west after expulsion, and others to go east. Perhaps the first, non ladino speaking, probably more liberal and pre-modern went forward, the latter (add those that moved to Africa), ladino speakers, more conservative went backward, to its roots.<br /> Some months ago I read an paper on Dienekes, March 01, 2013 Genomewide diversity in the Levant (Haber et al. 2013) that is a great geographic interpretation of cultural and genetic traits. It somehow reinforced my assumption that since the beginning there could have been two different tribes that prevailed: Coastal Jews and Inland or Mountain Jews. Some how liberals (Jesus or “Port Jews” the later concept by Lois Dubin/ David Sorkin) and conservatives. <br /> So I want to speculate on a hypothesis that the discussion is centered around comparing two different though not distant human groups, lets call one the Post-Phoenician and the Middle Eastern.<br /> Now, I do not want to imply that all Phoenicans, even Phlebas, were Jewish or somehow monotheistic, but that Phoencians had an important “migrationist” effect on Europe, specially in the Mediterranean and some Atalantic coasts and river waterways.<br /> It is easy to guess that there was an important Phoencian colony in central and northern Italy even before Rome. That perhaps some of those Ashkenazi mtDNA haplogroups that are considered non Jewish could originate in some women with similar Phoenician ancestry. Ancient Phoenican Europeans. <br /> And yes, them being liberal Jews, they married outside (the box) their groups, they married the other for money, for power, for safety and even for love.<br /> Just consider this great article on the flow/dissemination of men, women, and Hebrew money in 1300’s Italy, a Tuscany-Cremona example. Michele. Luzzati, 'La circolazione di uomini, donne e capitali ebraici nell' Italia del Quattrocento: un esempio toscano-cremonese'. <br /> <br /> Federico<br /> Tartessian Andalucia ancestry (partly)<br /><br />fmgarzamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17098537658554631893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-45013962852892626482013-10-19T02:34:47.063+03:002013-10-19T02:34:47.063+03:00"I will not be bullied or cowed by any atheis..."I will not be bullied or cowed by any atheist here or anywhere period". <br /><br />I don't believe anyone here is trying to bully or cow anybody. To feel as though they are may be a reflection of the precarious nature of your own belief system. <br /><br />"By the way, there is a lot of "religion" and "faith" in science". <br /><br />Examples? <br /><br />"I mean, why would those people have left the relative safety and comfort of the cities to live in the harsh desert? There must be some reason". <br /><br />I read an account of the expulsion of the Hyksos that is surprisingly close to some Bible stories. For example they had an agreement with the Paraoh that they could leave in peace, but once they had left Avaris he pursued them. And we know that the Egyptians invaded Palestine soon after the expulsion and attacked several towns. So it is quite possible that remnants of the Hyksos fled to the desert. <br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos<br /><br />Quote: <br /><br />"The first pharaoh of the 18th dynasty, Ahmose I, finally expelled the Hyksos from their last holdout at Sharuhen in Gaza by the 16th year of his reign". terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-5188959332289549132013-10-18T10:02:48.114+03:002013-10-18T10:02:48.114+03:00Full sequencing of the new Brandt et al Neolithic ...Full sequencing of the new Brandt et al Neolithic K samples would also be helpful, as it could show if some of these specific lineages were already present in Germany in the Neolithic. Going back to the Costa analysis, the conclusions are based on sloppy phylogeographic analysis. They might be right, they might be wrong, it is impossible to say. The finding are simply not convincing without a much more rigorous phylogeographic analysis. GailThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00971924422676678998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-74235017315320410662013-10-18T07:05:25.214+03:002013-10-18T07:05:25.214+03:00" I fully expected the 'hater trolls'..." I fully expected the 'hater trolls' to eventually show up. Hahaha, sadly never fails, like moths to a light. Certain groups people with certain mind-sets are so predictable, too predictable". <br /><br />So I'm a troll simply because I draw attention to some of the problems with a literal biblical belief? Should I also be sympathetic to the Polynesian belief that Maui fished the Pacific islands up for his people? <br /><br />"But anyway, I suppose we are all serious scholars here, so we all where aware of these things, correct?" <br /><br />Correct. <br /><br />"I see my comment about King David and Solomon were skipped over as they put the lie to your suppositions, but anyway". <br /><br />That suggestion has nothing to do with genetics, but seeing you insist: <br /><br />"Israel Finkelstein has written quite a lot about this issue.<br />Obviously, almost all of what is in the Tanakh is myth, specially at the start, but not only there.<br />Read The Bible Unearthed<br />for some initial references on serious archaeology of the area". <br /><br />With regard to David and Solomon he has also written a very well-argued book on that subject: <br /><br />http://www.amazon.com/David-Solomon-Search-Western-Tradition/dp/0743243633terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-63304544465720535782013-10-18T00:47:55.037+03:002013-10-18T00:47:55.037+03:00Wow, the expected "I know everything there is...Wow, the expected "I know everything there is to know" vitriol from the atheist peanut gallery...again, highly predictable. (sigh) What's new?<br /><br />By the way, there is a lot of "religion" and "faith" in science. This has been seen, demonstrated, and discussed many times in many forums. I have absolutely no interest in engaging the atheist trolls here or anywhere. I will not be bullied or cowed by any atheist here or anywhere period.<br /><br />So as to not be banned I will remove myself from any further comments in this section. Do not address anymore comments to me because you and your comments will be deservedly ignored. I refuse to feed the trolls.<br /><br />In other words, **** you, I'm busy. <br /><br />(Forgive me Dienekes)AdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-17696332746314351592013-10-17T23:08:56.363+03:002013-10-17T23:08:56.363+03:00There may be a core of historical truth in the OT ...There may be a core of historical truth in the OT accounts of the origin of the early Jews if we strip away the legends and myths. I will speculate on what that core might be.<br /><br />The OT tells us that the Jews were a stateless people, outside of the wealthy cities. We are told that they were escaped slaves who lived in the harsh wilderness. They do not identify ethnically with any of the cities. It may be that the early Jews were a conglomeration of escaped slaves and other stateless outcasts, like exiled criminals and heretics, drawn from various cities and ethnic groups, Canaanites, Moab, Edom, Egypt etc. Likely the historical records will give us some idea of the categories of people who escaped or were cast into the wilderness.<br /><br />I mean, why would those people have left the relative safety and comfort of the cities to live in the harsh desert? There must be some reason. The religion of the early Jews is focused on the "faith" that one day they will leave the wilderness and become a state, a proper people with a land of its own. Early Judaism presents itself as a religion that would have appealed to desert exiles in need of hope and many exiles may have gathered around that faith. The OT tells us that most of them died in the wilderness and that very few entered the "promised land". Clealy it is very dangerous and highly undesirable situation from which they wish to escape. That all implies that their exile in the desert was forced upon them by circumstances, possibly escape from slavery and other social compulsions.<br /><br />Most desert exiles did not survive but some of those who did, and who had gathered around the Jewish religion that promised them redemption from their desert exile, went on to become the Jews. Many people later assimilated into the religion. Thus most Jews today probably have only a trace of ancestry from the early desert exiles.<br /><br />(The forced migrations to Australia come to mind as an example of how the forced exile of criminals and others deemed undeserible (urban lower classes, orphans) can contribute to the formation of a state. The difference is that those exiles were incorporated into a functional state whereas the desert exiles seem to have gone on to form their own state.)apostateimpressionshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992369104954433139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-67830700953740279742013-10-17T19:24:58.584+03:002013-10-17T19:24:58.584+03:00What we should be looking at, of course, is not a ...<br />What we should be looking at, of course, is not a connection to the mythical Jacob or mythical Abraham or the like, but to how much there is a link between the people who claim to be Jewish now and the population that was living in the Roman province of Syria Palaestina and more specifically, in the Roman Judea.<br />There is a project by Israel Finkelstein right now that might help us get quite interesting information about the genetic remains of people in that area.<br /><br />AdygheChabadi,<br /><br />You have mentioned several times you are Jew. I don't think that's relevant to this topic (unless you can tell us something specific about your DNA sequences). No ethnicity, perceived or not, is more special than others.<br />Whether you are Latin American, German, Bavarian, Swabian, Nepalese, Jew, Japanese, Northern Japanese, from Mars: a myth is a myth.<br />Israel Finkelstein has written quite a lot about this issue.<br />Obviously, almost all of what is in the Tanakh is myth, specially at the start, but not only there.<br />Read <a href="http://biblearchaeology.wordpress.com/2012/05/27/free-download-the-bible-unearthed/" rel="nofollow">The Bible Unearthed</a><br />for some initial references on serious archaeology of the area.<br /><br />There are loads of discrepancies in what the first books of the Bible say and what history tells us.<br /><br />Keplerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11125538872924743270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-49550843955125440072013-10-17T17:44:42.171+03:002013-10-17T17:44:42.171+03:00AdygheChabadi:
"As a Jew, I find it extremel...AdygheChabadi:<br /><br /><i>"As a Jew, I find it extremely offensive."</i><br /><br />As a rationalist, I find your injection of religious belief into a scientific discussion extremely offensive. So what?<br /><br /><i>"No one knows if Jacob existed or not...no one here can say he was a myth because you have no proof that he was real or a myth."</i><br /><br />Argumentum ad ignorantiam. No one here can prove that invisible pink unicorns don't exist, either.<br /><br /><i>"Many said King David was a myth, we know differently now."</i><br /><br />No, "we" don't. To date, there is no compelling evidence that King David was an historical figure.<br /><br />apostateimpressions:<br /><br /><i>"Nearly all historians agree on the basis of the Egyptian records that the Jews never sojourned in Egypt or had a Biblical exodus."</i><br /><br />Exactly so. Moreover, the Bible demonstrates that, in fact, the Jews seem to have known very little about Egypt at all.<br /><br /><i>"Nor did they conquer the land of the Canaanites. Rather the early Jews were Canaanites who migrated into the hinterland."</i><br /><br />It is more likely that the core tribes that would later constitute Israel were from Moab and Edom, especially the latter.Va_Highlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04671547664669092756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-12969507092005650042013-10-17T11:26:57.179+03:002013-10-17T11:26:57.179+03:00Sorry, Dienekes for the back to back posts...forgo...Sorry, Dienekes for the back to back posts...forgot to mention this.<br /><br />The Egyptians had a notorious habit of not chronicling defeats. Something historians also acknowledge. The only way historians know about defeats is by the records of other peoples.<br /><br />Historians also acknowledge that Semites may have lived in northern Egypt ever since there was an Egypt. In fact, Semitic may have originated in that area and spread to the Levant where it diversified or further diversified. The Egyptian language itself developed in and around southern Egypt/ Kush/ Nubia. <br /><br />It is clear that before the foundation of a unified Egypt. Northern Egypt and Southern Egypt where home to two distinct peoples going by archaeology. The Northerners where Egyptianized. It is assumed that these Egyptianized northerners where Semites. Which would help to explain the closeness of Semitic to Egyptian not only do they share common heritage by way of parent language (Afroasiatic), but also because of an absorbed Semitic substrate that became a highly integrated part of the speech of all dialects of Egyptian eventually. So in reality, if any Semitic migration occurred into Egypt (which there where many), it was, in effect, a return to where they likely originated in the first place.<br /><br />There are even distinctly Semitic isoglosses in the lexically understood portions Meroitic, the ancient language of Kush. Specifically isoglosses or borrowings shared with Arabic and Akkadian. The Arabic isoglosses MAY represent common inheritance (within Afroasiatic). The Akkadian one LOOKS be a borrowing, but could be common inheritance also.<br /><br />But anyway, I suppose we are all serious scholars here, so we all where aware of these things, correct?<br />AdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-84962190486469525752013-10-17T10:52:20.183+03:002013-10-17T10:52:20.183+03:00"I doubt it is me who is being intellectually...<i>"I doubt it is me who is being intellectually dishonest on this matter."</i><br /><br />Yes, sir, you are. All "hater trolls" are.<br /><br /><i>""Rather the early Jews were Canaanites who migrated into the hinterland. Thus the entire story of Moses, Jacob, Joseph, Joshua et al. appears to be foundation myth"."</i><br /><br />No one doubts the Jews as Caananites, at least they shouldn't. The Bible makes this sort of admission. No one knows if Moses, or anyone concerned with it, is a myth. Again, there is no evidence one way or the other. I see my comment about King David and Solomon were skipped over as they put the lie to your suppositions, but anyway. <br /><br />Sadly, I am not surprised by the comments. I fully expected the "hater trolls" to eventually show up. Hahaha, sadly never fails, like moths to a light. Certain groups people with certain mind-sets are so predictable, too predictable. You should try harder not to be so? :)AdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-60273072295110260522013-10-17T02:28:25.050+03:002013-10-17T02:28:25.050+03:00"No one knows if Jacob existed or not...no on..."No one knows if Jacob existed or not...no one here can say he was a myth because you have no proof that he was real or a myth". <br /><br />What we can be sure of, though, is that only a minority of Jewish men can actually be descended from a single man at any realistic time he is supposed to have lived. <br /><br />"The intellectual dishonesty, ideological dishonesty, and anti-/ pseudo-intellectualism on display here is simply breathtaking and evil, terryt". <br /><br />I doubt it is me who is being intellectually dishonest on this matter. <br /><br />"Rather the early Jews were Canaanites who migrated into the hinterland. Thus the entire story of Moses, Jacob, Joseph, Joshua et al. appears to be foundation myth". <br /><br />That is what I see as the facts of the matter. terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-67754703538753799062013-10-16T22:58:19.896+03:002013-10-16T22:58:19.896+03:00Nearly all historians agree on the basis of the Eg...Nearly all historians agree on the basis of the Egyptian records that the Jews never sojourned in Egypt or had a Biblical exodus. Nor did they conquer the land of the Canaanites. Rather the early Jews were Canaanites who migrated into the hinterland. Thus the entire story of Moses, Jacob, Joseph, Joshua et al. appears to be foundation myth.<br /><br />Moreover the use of various symbolic literary devices in the story of Jacob implies that the tale is legendary myth rather than historical narrative.apostateimpressionshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992369104954433139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-8692444866432223192013-10-16T21:15:08.131+03:002013-10-16T21:15:08.131+03:00A side note on the persecution of Christians: If a...A side note on the persecution of Christians: If a society (in this case, ancient Rome during a certain phase or certain phases) persecutes people of a certain religion (in this case, Christianity) without them having done anything horrible, that society cannot be called tolerant, even though it might have been tolerant in other respects.Bilabial_Fricativehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13647445197460255114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-35809996309935886582013-10-16T13:15:26.533+03:002013-10-16T13:15:26.533+03:00@GailT: thanks for your explanation, this is what ...@GailT: thanks for your explanation, this is what i meant. they examined only some neighbouring subclades for comparing and found that they are european today. i would like to see a broader set of compared subclades... on 23andMe half of all jewish people state they are jewish, the other half is not aware of it (they seem not to know their family history e.g.)__ ROB __https://www.blogger.com/profile/08984215363384428283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-68162700819272746352013-10-16T02:02:24.098+03:002013-10-16T02:02:24.098+03:00Personally, I don't like the use of the word m...Personally, I don't like the use of the word myth in this discussion. As a Jew, I find it extremely offensive.<br /><br />Secondly, militant atheist and agnostic people believe in myths that are supposedly non-religious in nature, though, in many ways they can be considered highly religious in nature and dogmatic as seen by some of the comments about the origins of the Jews here.<br /><br />No one knows if Jacob existed or not...no one here can say he was a myth because you have no proof that he was real or a myth. Many said King David was a myth, we know differently now. Same with aspects of Solomon. The intellectual dishonesty, ideological dishonesty, and anti-/ pseudo-intellectualism on display here is simply breathtaking and evil, terryt.AdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-38028955123954885422013-10-15T21:04:50.252+03:002013-10-15T21:04:50.252+03:00@Terry
<"Isn't it more plausible that...@Terry<br /><br /><"Isn't it more plausible that the closely related European non-Ashkenazi lineages in that study once were Jewish women which converted to Christianity?"><br /><br />"Not unless you're going to claim virtually all of Europe was Jewish before it became Christian."<br /><br />Terry, your response misinterprets the actual data. They did not see a broadly European mtDNA signature in the Jewish mtDNA, rather, there is a concentration in haplogroups such as K. There are very few samples in the specific subclades that they examine, and it is possible that those samples could represent Jewish women who converted to Christianity in Europe. The authors recognized this problem, and their lack of an explanation undercuts their conclusions. From page 33 of the supplement: "The question arises as to why an assimilation founder event might draw in several lineages from a single haplogroup (K) from a presumably diverse source population in Europe." They explain this by saying it "may simply have been due to chance." The much more likely explanation is that K originated in the Near East, and that these specific K subclades represent migration of Jewish K lineages into Europe.GailThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00971924422676678998noreply@blogger.com