tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post562558651376765579..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Expansion of E-V13 and I-M423 from the BalkansDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-40676038491389803382008-12-31T04:29:00.000+02:002008-12-31T04:29:00.000+02:00Many thanks.Many thanks.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-78611474250920187502008-12-31T04:13:00.000+02:002008-12-31T04:13:00.000+02:00Cruciani 2006E-V12* is found mainly in Upper Egypt...<A HREF="http://dirkschweitzer.net/E3b-papers/MolecularBiologyandEvolution-07-24-6-1300.pdf" REL="nofollow">Cruciani 2006</A><BR/><BR/>E-V12* is found mainly in Upper Egypt (44%), E-V32 among Somalis and Oromo (both above 40%), E-V22 along the Nile, in Ethiopia (25%) and even Kenya, E-V65 mainly among Moroccan and Lybian "Arabs" (among Asian Arabs is much lower, 6% in Palestine as the highest figure).Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-59390174331339874842008-12-30T23:48:00.000+02:002008-12-30T23:48:00.000+02:00Sorry. Another question. Where are E-V12, E-V22 ...Sorry. Another question. Where are E-V12, E-V22 and E-V65 found? I just have a very general "NE Africa" distribution.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-44343859163357915222008-12-29T09:26:00.000+02:002008-12-29T09:26:00.000+02:00Thanks for that explanation Maju.Thanks for that explanation Maju.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-44080931318273699632008-12-29T03:00:00.000+02:002008-12-29T03:00:00.000+02:00E-M78 is quite clearly original from the Nile (Cru...E-M78 is quite clearly original from the Nile (Cruciani 2007), yet E-V13 is rare in Africa and would seem to have a possible source in Palestine or SW Balcans (Albania, Greece). It's possible I guess that E-M78 expanded in the Mesolithic (Afroasiatic spread from Upper Egypt/Nubia) and that E-V13 is the local Balcanic derivate and that its presence in Palestine and other West Asian areas is best explained by back-migration from Europe. Yet (Cruciani 2004) the West Asian E-V13 appear mostly at the microsatellite central node (and rarely as derivatives), what rather would seem to sggest that it was in West Asia where E-V13 first appeared, having Greece and Albania as secondary spread nodes. <BR/><BR/>By Cruciani 2007 again, West Asia appears as much more diverse within E-V13 than Greece (or anywhere in Europe). Within Europe too Greece does not appear as particularly diverse either (more in places like Bulgaria or even Hungary). Yet diversty alone is not enough to mean origin (some of the most diverse areas for this clade in Europe are clearly colonization destinations, not sources, like Galicia). As someone said, using a modern example, the genetic diversity of Brazil is much higher than that of Portugal for any clade, yet this doesn't mean that Brazilians have colonized Portugal, we know it's the opposite case.<BR/><BR/>But still I see not clear the case for E-V13 to be Greek or Balcanic in origin. If anything it would seem that rather not. Nevertheless the Balcans were probably the main source of European E-V13.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-75613929844833834512008-12-29T01:51:00.000+02:002008-12-29T01:51:00.000+02:00Afterthought. Someone may be able to work out E-V...Afterthought. Someone may be able to work out E-V13's most likely region of origin. What is the geographic spread of the E-M78 mutation? The E-V12, E-V13, E-V22 and E-V65 mutations presumably formed as regional variations after the M78 spread. You'll be able to deduce the most likely region of origin for V13 once you place each of these mutations into their separate regions of origin.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-27782188045509683002008-12-28T22:49:00.000+02:002008-12-28T22:49:00.000+02:00"What appears as 'Mesolithic' using the wrong muta..."What appears as 'Mesolithic' using the wrong mutation rate is actually Bronze Age, although with hefty confidence intervals". <BR/><BR/>In spite of the arguments against this comment presented here I see a strong possibility of it being correct. <BR/><BR/>E must have entered the Balkans from somewhere. Africa seems a good place to consider first up. We know from Egyptian records that the 'Sea People' were drifting around the Mediterranean during the Bronze age. We also know, from those same records, that these 'Sea people' were periodically allied with 'Libyans' (whoever the Egyptians considered them to be). <BR/><BR/>Couldn't the Y-chromosome have entered the Balkans at that time and then spread? As someone said elsewhere, "We know what sailors do when they enter any port".terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-39362868963805045842008-12-27T11:32:00.000+02:002008-12-27T11:32:00.000+02:00am surprised that the young age of Sesklo has been...<I>am surprised that the young age of Sesklo has been overlooked in both King et al 2008 and this study. Not even a comment. The entire Cardial Ware argument is undermined by the relatively recent age of this group, which would appear to be associated with Iolkos rather than Sesklo, even under ZUF mutation rates.</I><BR/><BR/>Iolkos is not really far away from Sesklo. The whole Thessalian Neolithic (pre-Dimini) is generally percieved as "Sesklo culture". <BR/><BR/>Anyhow, from memory, Cardial appears early on in that area (the book I read called it "proto-Sesklo" in contrast to "pre-Sesklo", that would be the direct cultural ancestor of Sesklo and the Balcanic Neolithic) and would seem a somewhat different culture, nevertheless overalpping with Sesklo. Further explanations on this issue will be welcome from my side.<BR/><BR/><I>Also, why did they ignore everything north of the Danube and east of the Vardar-Morava corridor? Bulgaria in particular would appear to be an oversight, since the variance of that population might have been a good clue.</I><BR/><BR/>Good point. There's a tendency among some to believe that Danubian Neolithic is (in genetic terms) more authoctonous than Cardial one. But the archaeological evidence rather suggests the opposite if anything. While Cardial in most places clearly incorporates local Epipaleolithic tool-making styles, Danubian is much more homogeneous and does not appear to incorporate any pre-existent local technologies or cultural elements. Said that, I do suspect, that the very origins of Danubian (that imply major modifications of the Starcevo-Koros-Cris theme and appears precisely where the Neolithic wave should have come in contact with post-Magdalenian peoples) suggest an authoctonous or mixed element, something special that triggered that cultural change.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-54935461370497328442008-12-27T10:35:00.000+02:002008-12-27T10:35:00.000+02:00"Some people disagree with this scheme but is quit..."Some people disagree with this scheme but is quite mainstream anyhow". <BR/><BR/>An excellent summary Maju. <BR/><BR/>"Notice that mtDNA follows different patterns (probably even more complex)". <BR/><BR/>Did you really write that? Now we're getting somewhere.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-877544034843640532008-12-27T03:58:00.000+02:002008-12-27T03:58:00.000+02:00I am surprised that the young age of Sesklo has be...I am surprised that the young age of Sesklo has been overlooked in both King et al 2008 and this study. Not even a comment. The entire Cardial Ware argument is undermined by the relatively recent age of this group, which would appear to be associated with Iolkos rather than Sesklo, even under ZUF mutation rates.<BR/><BR/>Also, why did they ignore everything north of the Danube and east of the Vardar-Morava corridor? Bulgaria in particular would appear to be an oversight, since the variance of that population might have been a good clue.<BR/><BR/>Steve BirdStevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00285108241179440861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-69934779347531477492008-12-26T11:12:00.000+02:002008-12-26T11:12:00.000+02:00Victor: you're maybe right. I guess I'm mostly con...Victor: you're maybe right. I guess I'm mostly considering technological efficiency here, not civilization in any ideal sense. <BR/><BR/>In any case, I did not mean to brag about anything. I just realize that the conquest of America was possible because (specially) a huge technological advantage by Old World peoples (not only Europeans at that time, more like all or most Eurasians). This was obviously a product of, specially, greater geographical mass, what created an accumulated differential of innovation along the milennia. No ethnic cause, merely geographical/historical reasons in my opinion. <BR/><BR/>This merely historical-geographical differential is also what allowed the Moroccan conquest of Mali and probably the African slave trade overall (as Africa was much more isolated than Eurasia, what hindered technocultural evolution, though not as much as America or Australia). <BR/><BR/>My point was and is in any case, that such huge techno-cultural differences (gunpowder and horses versus obsidian and copper) did not exist in most of the history and prehistory of Eurasia and specifically of West Eurasia, in which context I made that comment. Smaller differences may have existed though and, in general, the peoples towards the east, much better communicated, had that smaller advantage.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-41861270268083709982008-12-26T10:30:00.000+02:002008-12-26T10:30:00.000+02:00Dear Dyer, if you are the “Cornish the Red”, thoug...Dear Dyer, if you are the “Cornish the Red”, though your family is rooted in Britton lands, being your haplogroup more Germanic than Celt, and being the closest to you a Foster from England, I think that your twig has come from East (search for DYS607=13).Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-7040579814673729942008-12-26T09:16:00.000+02:002008-12-26T09:16:00.000+02:00Many thanks to Victor for having hammered the Hamm...Many thanks to Victor for having hammered the Hammer (also Jews had their Hammers!)<BR/>John is a clever boy and I ask him, in these holidays, to read my posts on RootsWeb and on "dna-forums" (some thousands) and he'll be able to understand more on me, on Genetics, on Philosophy and on guilty conscience.<BR/>Gioiello Tognoni del Badia, R1b1b2/S136+. K1a1b1 (Gioiello)Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-24568848333090164432008-12-26T08:30:00.000+02:002008-12-26T08:30:00.000+02:00@Maju, and speaking of ethno-centrism or ethno-bra...@Maju, and speaking of ethno-centrism or ethno-bragging, what about the implicit ethno-bashing of your poorly informed comments about the conquest of America? <BR/><BR/><I>And when we saw all those towns and villages built in the water, and other great towns on dry land, and that straight and level causeway leading to Mexico, we were astounded. These great towns... and buildings rising from the water, all made of stone, seemed like an enchanted vision... Indeed some of our soldiers asked whether it was not all a dream... It was all so wonderful that I do not know how to describe this first glimpse of things never heard of, seen or dreamed of before...<BR/><BR/>Historia verdadera de la conquista de la Nueva España - Bernal Diaz del Castillo (1492 - 1581)</I><BR/><BR/>If there was an imbalance in that historical "adventure" it was in its destructive capacity, not in civilization.<BR/><BR/>p.s. Sorry to be off-topic but sometimes is necessary to stop perpetuating the stereotypes.VVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15052603268701852732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-65481605702006458382008-12-25T22:39:00.000+02:002008-12-25T22:39:00.000+02:00I am a novice at the groups specific to the geneti...<I>I am a novice at the groups specific to the genetic architecture being discussed. Could someone say just a little about them to kinda orient me? The nomenclature in this population genetics business confuses me.</I><BR/><BR/>· <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA" REL="nofollow">Wikipedia</A><BR/><BR/>· <A HREF="http://www.isogg.org/tree/index.html" REL="nofollow">YSOGG 2008</A><BR/><BR/>In few words: The most common Y-DNA haplogroups in Europe are:<BR/><BR/>· R1b (most frequent in the West but also somewhat common in the Eastern Mediterranean - also ill studied branches in Uyghuristan and Sahelian Africa)<BR/>· R1a (most frequent in the East and also in parts of Central Asia and Northern South Asia)<BR/>· I (most common in the Balcans and Sweden - three different subclades with different geographical patterns)<BR/>· J (most common in West Asia, two main subclades: J1 and J2 - though often found together, spread around along Mediterranean and other areas)<BR/>· E (most common in Africa, E1b1b1 is the Mediterranean clade, strongest, as different subclades, in North Africa and Greece/Albania)<BR/><BR/>J and E are norally thought of as "Neolithic" by origin. I, related to J, may have also benefitted from Neolithic expansions that sprung from the Balcans and its exact origins are unclear. R1a is often claimed as Indo-European (Kurgan) trademark. R1b, at least the European subclade, is often claimed as Paleolithic (Magdalenian) remain (most concentrated among Basques, Gascons, Irish, Scotts, Welsh). Both R1 clades are obviously related and also more distantly with R2 (India mostly) and Q (some Sierians and most Native Americans). <BR/><BR/>Some people disagree with this scheme but is quite mainstream anyhow. Notice that mtDNA follows different patterns (probably even more complex).Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-52103567375375854622008-12-25T20:49:00.000+02:002008-12-25T20:49:00.000+02:00Oh dear. On Christmas, too.Dear fellow sojourners ...Oh dear. On Christmas, too.<BR/><BR/>Dear fellow sojourners on this great adventure. None of us knows all so much about this ancient past of our to be able to take each other down like this. One of the things I have appreciated about this blog for the past several weeks of reading is its relative, oh, neutrality of tone. It presents more than one side and the pithy abstracts are neutral and non personal in tone even when the author has an opinion he discloses. I like this forum that way. Can we keep it like that? <BR/><BR/>Related to the content of the topic, I am a novice at the groups specific to the genetic architecture being discussed. Could someone say just a little about them to kinda orient me? The nomenclature in this population genetics business confuses me.<BR/><BR/>In case it is not clear and I have used one of my "handles" I am John Charles Dyer. I am S29/U198 Y and T* with my few matches found in Spain, Mexico, Germany, Sicily, Syria, and the Bahamas.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02822120230321781593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-36084828418874153392008-12-25T15:45:00.000+02:002008-12-25T15:45:00.000+02:00I have always partecipate to any forums with my na...I have always partecipate to any forums with my name, surname, YDna, MtDna, address, age, nationality and I had never used (and I am not going to use) a nickname. If you are so kind to manifest your data, I'll be able to say something also about you. Your picture remembers to me a person (from Etruscan phersu from Greek prosopon) I contempt (from Latin contemno) and I'll contempt for ever: "the great Julius didn't go bed only with all men of Rome, but also with all women". What I said on Athens and Florence is only an ascertainment. Find, please, only one town in the world of about 100,000 inhabitants which has generated so many geniuses.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-53635770114759318562008-12-25T13:53:00.000+02:002008-12-25T13:53:00.000+02:00Another one ethno-bragging? Excuse me if I don't p...Another one ethno-bragging? Excuse me if I don't participate.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-87980928342459187552008-12-25T13:28:00.000+02:002008-12-25T13:28:00.000+02:00Maju, whoever you are, don't forget I am a Tuscan ...Maju, whoever you are, don't forget I am a Tuscan from at least one thousand years but probably from 3 thousands or much more. My question was ironical. You know I think R1b1b2 was in a place, from at least the Younger Dryas: in Italy.<BR/>The links with Greeks there are. One time I said in some forums before I was banned, that only two relatively small cities in the world have had the same harvest of geniuses: Athens and Florence, and don't forget that there were Pelasgians before "Greeks", who were linked to Etruscans. The third people of Geniuses, Ashkenazim, has probably a strong Etruscan and Pelasgian (Philistins) ancestry. I am 23% Ashkenazi and I have one milliom Tuscan ancestors in these last centuries.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-2147788843281857712008-12-25T13:16:00.000+02:002008-12-25T13:16:00.000+02:00It does not deny Greek or proto-Greek or quasi-Gre...It does not deny Greek or proto-Greek or quasi-Greek ancestry in Italy. Most of Italy and specially the south was very much exposed to cultural influences from the Aegean (and possibly also demic fluxes): in the local Chalcolithic (Bronze in the Aegean region), later in Mycenaean and classical Greek periods, and let's not forget the Anatolian origin of Etruscans. <BR/><BR/>But I have no idea if <I>any R1b1b2 was sighted?</I>. It's not like haplogroups are like migrating birds or UFOS that can be "sighted" as they pass by. More like trails, often confuse, of past events that can be interpretated more or less acurately by good scouts. Rather than the abilities of a birdwatcher we need those of a Bushman hunter, able to tell exactly what happened by the river without having seen any of the animals involved at all.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-45487221798029848112008-12-25T12:49:00.000+02:002008-12-25T12:49:00.000+02:00During the overflight of the migration of E-V13 an...During the overflight of the migration of E-V13 and I-M423 (probably in the early Neolithic, even though this denies that Italians have a tangible Greek ancestry), any R1b1b2 was sighted?Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-66788305000709964362008-12-25T10:38:00.000+02:002008-12-25T10:38:00.000+02:00In many cases yes. Or not so different. Don't be s...In many cases yes. Or not so different. Don't be so ethnocentric, please, it's clear that very imbalanced adventures like the conquest of America were not available then. Differences were much less noticeable, even if there were differences. <BR/><BR/>In those times you could see illiterate barbarians, like the Cimmerians, Germans or Arabs, invading major civilization areas. Instead the Aztecs invading Europe, not to say the Cherokees would be totally unimaginable. They would have needed many centuries of contact before such thing would be even remotely possible. <BR/><BR/>So Crimson has a point.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-66486857371658799452008-12-25T05:07:00.000+02:002008-12-25T05:07:00.000+02:00Crimson Guard said:"Greek Colonists were too few i...Crimson Guard said:<BR/><BR/>"Greek Colonists were too few in number and wouldve already entered lands already well populated and with degrees of civilization equal to their own."<BR/><BR/>Civilization equal to their own?<BR/>REALLY?<BR/>Don't make me laugh!Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781621903358782011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-28750795559656231282008-12-25T00:50:00.000+02:002008-12-25T00:50:00.000+02:00Hey awesome blog! I am adding you to my blogroll :...Hey awesome blog! I am adding you to my blogroll :)Brittanihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04319009656767464736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-17544050727570238542008-12-24T23:42:00.000+02:002008-12-24T23:42:00.000+02:00See also Figure S2 which shows that Turkish haplot...See also Figure S2 which shows that Turkish haplotypes fall at various locations in the main Balkan cluster, and don't appear to form a different cluster or broader network.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.com