tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post5492142663145994696..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Malana (Himachal Pradesh) autosomal and Y-chromosome studyDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-57400789582403801102014-06-20T22:32:08.917+03:002014-06-20T22:32:08.917+03:00Thank you so much for identifying your interest in...Thank you so much for identifying your interest in Aryan Tribes of North India. I say this because the Alliance between Pakistan and U.S. highly divides them according to Arabic Persian and Urdu Scripts. This is not true in North India. Ladakhi Balti Shina Brokkat Broskad Dzongkha written scripts do NOT indicate any Arabic or Urdu outside of the Muslims, such as Brokpa, Drukpa, and Minero.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07831733784375568070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-90419665048604006682011-12-21T20:09:05.331+02:002011-12-21T20:09:05.331+02:00I would like like to ask you a few questions regar...I would like like to ask you a few questions regarding Malana and your take on the connection with the Brokpa people of Ladakh?<br /><br />I can help you in this regard. <br /><br />Regarding Malana people, they belong to Rajput Caste , A major caste in North India<br /><br />I have visited this village and sampled them for my Y chromosomal studies. Also the Brokpa of LadakhD12s66_67https://www.blogger.com/profile/09450240415713011440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-68005651659214875892010-08-05T11:48:39.530+03:002010-08-05T11:48:39.530+03:00"That was one of the things upon which I base..."That was one of the things upon which I based my speculation". <br /><br />I've put some of my thought on East Asian language movements, including Tbeto-Burman, at Dienekes' Korean post: <br /><br />http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07/koreans-in-genomic-context-jung-et-al.html<br /><br />"So maybe Sino-Tibetan (including its Tibeto-Burman branch) languages were prevalent in the northern parts of the Subcontinent and even in much of Central Asia" <br /><br />You will see that I agree. But, I strongly suspect that all the languages I mention there were spoken by people of East Asian appearance, not 'Caucasoid'. So it is very interesting that the 'Malana villagers speak a Tibeto-Burman language' (or not, according to others' comments).terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-90460185401896540602010-08-03T20:18:05.186+03:002010-08-03T20:18:05.186+03:00My e-mail can be found at the bottom of this page ...My e-mail can be found at the bottom of this page and it works.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-77276855021945274932010-08-03T19:49:13.933+03:002010-08-03T19:49:13.933+03:00Dienekes,
Truly brilliant work!
I would like lik...Dienekes,<br /><br />Truly brilliant work!<br /><br />I would like like to ask you a few questions regarding Malana and your take on the connection with the Brokpa people of Ladakh?<br /><br />Your email link is not working so could you please provide me with your preferred contact? My email is:<br /> <br />tpds108@gmail.com <br /><br />Thanking you in advance.<br /><br />Sincerely,<br /><br />Tashi D.STashi Dos Santoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08359509425413543350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-49180070803013616802010-07-30T14:51:24.424+03:002010-07-30T14:51:24.424+03:00But often language seems not closely attached to e...<i>But often language seems not closely attached to either.</i><br /><br />That was one of the things upon which I based my speculation.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-72538330889068056012010-07-30T10:57:13.245+03:002010-07-30T10:57:13.245+03:00"The expansion of O3 may have predated the ex..."The expansion of O3 may have predated the expansion of Tibeto-Burman languages and also Sino-Tibetan family as a whole". <br /><br />Perhaps so, but there's no indication that the Tibeto-Burman languages arrived in SE Asia with Y-haps J or G. I agree with AP that languages are often closely associated with mtDNA rather than Y-haps. But often language seems not closely attached to either. The language a groups speaks is a product of a complicated set of circumstances.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-31861880503124743432010-07-28T17:42:05.286+03:002010-07-28T17:42:05.286+03:00The language in many instances comes from the fema...The language in many instances comes from the female side cf. Newar - on the male side mainly carrying north Indian Y, but on the female side Tibeto-Burman - they speak a TB language which almost feels northern Indian due to the influx of vocabulary.APhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09934397498634833316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-88705309310349529962010-07-28T14:42:22.600+03:002010-07-28T14:42:22.600+03:00In fact I've read that O3 is the Y-hap most li...<i>In fact I've read that O3 is the Y-hap most likely connected to the Tibeto-Burman expansion.</i><br /><br />The expansion of O3 may have predated the expansion of Tibeto-Burman languages and also Sino-Tibetan family as a whole.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-88591680696274289322010-07-28T11:46:30.743+03:002010-07-28T11:46:30.743+03:00"We don't know the genetic composition of..."We don't know the genetic composition of the original Tibeto-Burman or Sino-Tibetan speakers. So the issue is open to speculation and that is what I am doing". <br /><br />We certainly don't know the 'genetic composition of the original Tibeto-Burman or Sino-Tibetan speakers' but we do know that the language family is reaches SE Asia as well as Northeast India. In those regions Y-haps J2 and R1a are far from the most common haplogroups. In fact I've read that O3 is the Y-hap most likely connected to the Tibeto-Burman expansion.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-23270871245815607752010-07-27T22:05:47.399+03:002010-07-27T22:05:47.399+03:00The Y-chromosome composition of this population ma...<i>The Y-chromosome composition of this population makes it unlikely that they originally spoke Tibeto-Burman.</i><br /><br />We don't know the genetic composition of the original Tibeto-Burman or Sino-Tibetan speakers. So the issue is open to speculation and that is what I am doing.<br /><br /><i>The Tibeto-Burmese classification is questionable. While there may be that influence, there appears to be evidence that there is also a Sanskrit influence in their language.</i><br /><br />It is very normal Malana language to have some Sanskrit influence as Malana villagers are Hindus by religion and surrounded by Indo-Aryan-speaking Hindus. But that doesn't make their language Indo-Aryan. By your criteria English would have to be classified as a Latin language. Every online source I have looked classifies Malana language as a Tibeto-Burman language.<br /><br />BTW, I want to make a very minor and insignificant correction to my previous post:<br /><br /><i>So maybe the whole region was Tibeto-Burman-speaking before the imposition of the Indo-Aryan languages to the locals</i><br /><br />Here it would be better if I used "spread" instead of "imposition" as Indo-Aryan languages might have spread in the region gradually as a natural consequence of converting to Hinduism. So it might actually have been Hinduism which was imposed and not Indo-Aryan languages. But Malana villagers would preserve their pre-IE language despite their conversion to Hinduism due to their long and persistent isolation (like the fairly isolated Islamized but non-Turkified peoples of the mountainous regions of the Caucasus and environs).Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-71620810451956684182010-07-27T19:26:30.889+03:002010-07-27T19:26:30.889+03:00The Y-chromosome composition of this population ma...The Y-chromosome composition of this population makes it unlikely that they originally spoke Tibeto-Burman. <br /><br />As for any "Greek origins", these are fairly unlikely, as only 2 haplogroups common in Europe (J2 and R1a) have been found and these are exactly the ones that are also found in other populations of the region.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-35914556877417199912010-07-27T18:20:39.611+03:002010-07-27T18:20:39.611+03:00The Tibeto-Burmese classification is questionable....The Tibeto-Burmese classification is questionable. While there may be that influence, there appears to be evidence that there is also a Sanskrit influence in their language.Andrew Oh-Willekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537151821869153861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-46597871096957710362010-07-27T17:48:13.881+03:002010-07-27T17:48:13.881+03:00These traditions are a little like those of the Ka...These traditions are a little like those of the Kalash - if you look back well into the past there are no such traditions. <br />In the accounts of JB Lyall (1865-72), there is no mention of any Greek connection, they are described as Kanets (IE-TB mix).APhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09934397498634833316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-76480761919488082592010-07-27T17:38:28.710+03:002010-07-27T17:38:28.710+03:00Another important detail to note from the Wikipedi...Another important detail to note from the Wikipedia article: Malana is surrounded by Indo-Aryan speaking populations. <br /><br />So maybe the whole region was Tibeto-Burman-speaking before the imposition of the Indo-Aryan languages to the locals and only Malana has managed to preserve its Tibeto-Burman tongue because of its isolation. I tend to think that assuming that all or almost all of India, Pakistan and even Bangladesh and Nepal was Dravidian-speaking before the arrival of Indo-Aryan languages (some also consider most or all of pre-IE Iran and Afghanistan as Dravidian-speaking, counting, e.g., Elam language as Dravidian) is an over-simplification at best. So maybe Sino-Tibetan (including its Tibeto-Burman branch) languages were prevalent in the northern parts of the Subcontinent and even in much of Central Asia (maybe even in some parts of West Asia and East Europe) before the arrival of Indo-European (mainly Indo-Iranian) languages to those areas and were spoken by non-Mongoloid (full Caucasoid and Caucasoid-Subcontinental) populations in those regions. Some scholars see familial relationship between Sino-Tibatan languages and some languages of the Caucasus, so my speculations may be more plausible than they look at first sight.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-46108998111882348332010-07-26T23:19:10.409+03:002010-07-26T23:19:10.409+03:00with alternative folk histories suggesting either ...<i>with alternative folk histories suggesting either the Aryan's or a displaced contingent of Alexander the Great's Army as antecedents. (FWIW, the Aryan story seems more consistent with the village's cultural milieu such as its focus on purity and its homogenous genetic makeup.)</i><br /><br />Or, as Malana villagers speak a Tibeto-Burman language, they may be descended from the original Sino-Tibetan language family speakers, who may have been completely Caucasoid or a Caucasoid-Subcontinental mix instead of Mongoloid.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-44803101570243762712010-07-26T21:23:42.271+03:002010-07-26T21:23:42.271+03:00The village has a colorful tradition, with alterna...The village has a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malana,_Himachal_Pradesh#History" rel="nofollow">colorful tradition</a>, with alternative folk histories suggesting either the Aryan's or a displaced contingent of Alexander the Great's Army as antecedents. (FWIW, the Aryan story seems more consistent with the village's cultural milieu such as its focus on purity and its homogenous genetic makeup.)<br /><br />It was also apparently once a source of some of the world's best hashish.Andrew Oh-Willekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537151821869153861noreply@blogger.com