tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post5103131228736663492..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Finally, structure in haplogroup R1a (Underhill et al. 2009)Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger155125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-72396176402191092292011-03-02T06:26:57.944+02:002011-03-02T06:26:57.944+02:00I want to present some information which could be ...I want to present some information which could be helpful in understanding the controversies RE M458 in Russia ans Slavic expansion to the Balkans.<br />1. Russia was not populated by Slavs at the time, when the Slavic expansion to the Balkan began. The expansion of Slavs to the later territory of Russia began in 7th century.<br /><br />2. Less density of the marker in the central Ukraine could be explained by that the territory was populated (in part?) by other tribes<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_language<br /><br />During the Khazar period, the territory of Ukraine, settled at that time by Iranian (post-Scythian), Turkic (post-Hunnic, proto-Bulgarian), and Finno-Ugric (proto-Hungarian) tribes, was progressively Slavicized by several waves of migration from the Slavic north.<br />3. “J” already mentioned:<br />--- ... higher frequency of marker M458 north of Crimea could be explained by this fact:<br />Black sea steppes were not populated by Slavs till XIII century (look at the line on above map)when Russians finally destroyed Crimean_Khanate:<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novorossiya<br />Majority of settlers would be from Viatichi turned Ukrainian/Russian.<br /><br />4. ~50% of Russians and Ukranian people have R1a, so M458 is only a part of this haplogroup. So, we have to multiply the proportion in the places where Slavs settled.<br /><br />5. Now, how Slavs came to their settlement to Balkan:<br />In 6th century, Nomadic, very brutal Avars in their expansion to Southern Europe force Slavs who were on their way to settle in the fertile Pannonia to produced agricultural products for them. These Slavs were not from modern Poland, but from Carpathian area and around. Slavs stayed in the Pannonia 1 - 1.5 centuries. During this time the exchange of population with the Balkans occur. First in their raids to the Balkans Avars were alone. Slavs were not skilled in war, but later they got this experience and contributed to the Avar's raids. Later, they were able to do this themselves, and finally (7th Century) invaded the whole Balkans. (You can read about this in the Wiki. I read more serious literature in detail).<br /><br />So:<br />- Slavs who occupied the Balkans were not from the areas the most rich in M458.<br />- In the moment of the invasion, Slavs could be already pretty much “Balkanazed” .<br />--- The exchange of population with the Balkan could change the proportion of haplogroups at the moment of invasion.<br /><br />the area of the Pannonia was re-occupied by other tribes later.<br />>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br />I also want to add that 3 centuries before this (3rd century), Goths were in the territory of Ukraine and around the Black Sea, they could Previosly, Tracian tribes were somewhere around Carpatians.Hellenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15822664628716922086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-19133986539844317572011-02-25T16:37:46.046+02:002011-02-25T16:37:46.046+02:00well in my previous post i did my math wrong.To ca...well in my previous post i did my math wrong.To calculate the slavic R1a we have to say (8.8x100)/70.(8.8 has to be 70% of total slavic r1a as 35% is for 50%.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-11646892507187307942011-02-25T12:12:43.542+02:002011-02-25T12:12:43.542+02:00a way to find the quantity of slavic R1a in greece...a way to find the quantity of slavic R1a in greece and other regions could be the following.Considering the Polish as 'pure' Slavs we can observe that out of the 50% R1a the 35% is R-M458 which is aproximtely the 70% of r1a.Taking as example the greek Macedonia we can conclude that 15%(8.8x1.7) of haplogroups is slavic R1a .R1a in greek macedonia reaches about 25% so 10% r1a was existant in greek macedonia before the advent of slavs.Calculating similarly the non slavic R1a in nearby regions we have about 5% non slavic R1a for greece and macedonia.So non slavic r1a drops out of greek macedonia fact that sets non slavic R1a as a possible 'genetic marker' of the ancient macedonians.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-60585187391214730812010-06-21T12:51:56.155+03:002010-06-21T12:51:56.155+03:00I have heard that R1a in Greece came with the Myce...I have heard that R1a in Greece came with the Mycenaean Greek invasion from modern day Ukraine. This means that R1a in Greece is also Mycenaean, and it is not only a result of Slavic admixture.<br /><br />R1a is also called Balto-Slavic, Mycenaean Greek, Macedonian. this means that it is also a "Native Greek haplogroup" not only a Slavic one.AthenianHoplitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03827137547565748648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-7167214399875722212010-01-16T11:46:31.169+02:002010-01-16T11:46:31.169+02:00Couldn't mentioned R1a1a7 similarities in Pola...Couldn't mentioned R1a1a7 similarities in Poland in Russia be explained by expulsions of Poles into Siberia and such? Since XVII century this sort of involuntary (and sometimes voluntary) colonisation was common. I have read that at one moment Irkuck had 50% catholic population, probably most of them Poles... Heck, Poles even ended in Russians settlements in North America..szopenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04219188379320432806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-55328195868791406492009-12-11T01:45:01.746+02:002009-12-11T01:45:01.746+02:00this makes sense or finally shows Slavic similarit...this makes sense or finally shows Slavic similarities as with the R1a thing it almost tried to show that Serbs are not Slavic and that brahmins are closer to russians or poles than serbs thats bs this has cleared it up a little bitUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12932918459852134706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-27635921352570377622009-12-04T01:28:52.327+02:002009-12-04T01:28:52.327+02:00That would make sense, John. However, as the paper...That would make sense, John. However, as the paper is behind a paywall, we (at least I) had to rely on what others comment. In this sense I welcome that info you provide, thanks - which would suggest a West Asian coalescence area for all R1, not just R1b. <br /><br />It seems to contradict <a href="http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v54/n1/full/jhg20082a.html" rel="nofollow">previous phylogeny-based suggestions</a> that R1a could have an oldest depth in India, right? However I wonder if this may be influence by what you sample and analyze. I mean: Sharma did not estimate coalescence time for particular West Eurasian populations, but only for the bulk of them; he did with South Asians instead, getting deepest age for the Saharia tribe and the Kashmiri Pandits. <br /><br />Did Underhill studied South Asians in any depth. How do these two papers compare?Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-24828891633276155982009-12-04T01:02:44.216+02:002009-12-04T01:02:44.216+02:00This abstract is misleading as to what it implies ...This abstract is misleading as to what it implies about IEs. The full article goes into the evidence, which has again suggested, a Near Eastern origin for R1a (R1a1) <br /><br />Here is a snippet from Wiki:<br /><br />"R1a evolved from a male-line ancestor who was in haplogroup R1. R1 is defined by SNP mutation M173. The R1a clade can be distinguished by several unique markers including M420. R1a also has a similarly common sister-clade, called R1b, which also has M173, but is distinguished by its M343 marker. There is no simple consensus concerning the places in Eurasia where R1, R1a or R1b evolved, although Underhill et al. (2009) recently suggested that "the most distantly related R1a chromosomes [...] have been detected at low frequency in Europe, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, Caucasus and Iran" implying that R1a's origin may perhaps be somewhere near these regions".<br /><br />'This' is what expresses what is the most relevant from the study, and it has been the long-standing question. Not the fact that R1a343k69b8a93.1, or whatever , came from wherever.<br /><br />I can't help to feel but that the IE topic will go and forth, childishly, for eternity.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11566494589399073241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-89134779025937517342009-12-04T00:44:22.582+02:002009-12-04T00:44:22.582+02:00Oddly, what has not been a popular discussion stem...Oddly, what has not been a popular discussion stemming from this post, happens to be the fact that the study suggests an Near Eastern (Turkic, Iranian, and Armenian) origin for R1a (R1a1).<br />A point which some have been arguing for, a very long time.<br /><br />Rather, many of you are dwelling on the fact R1a1a7 is Uralic, although there is little reason to attribute this haplotype to Indo-European groups. It seems more like a later, Scythian marker. We know from history, that the Scythians inhabited the region, and later invaded various nations of the near east and india. <br /><br />R1a1a7 is a another unfortunate construction of blatant Eurocentricity.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11566494589399073241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-14713602593048536262009-11-22T23:28:11.632+02:002009-11-22T23:28:11.632+02:00Hallo,
I made some amater research about Slovenia...Hallo, <br />I made some amater research about Slovenian y-DNA. It is in english (not everything) <br />http://www.veneti.info/en/home/articles/popular/263-poti-naih-prednikov<br /><br />and in slovene (everything)<br />http://www.veneti.info/sl/home/articles/popular/263-poti-naih-prednikov <br /><br />TODAY I found (with some more samples) that 137 Slovenians in "my" base have tested DYS447 and 57 of them are R1a.<br />1 has 22, 6 have 23, 46 have 24and 4 have 25.<br /><br />If this: http://www.gwozdz.org/R1a.html#M458TestResults <br />is correct, than 37,22% Slovenes have older R1a and 4,38% have M458 (R1a1a7).Marjeta Vakar Manfreda Bissuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11275952282757925762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-30299051269059682762009-11-22T23:21:48.848+02:002009-11-22T23:21:48.848+02:00This comment has been removed by the author.Marjeta Vakar Manfreda Bissuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11275952282757925762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-412002641900571772009-11-15T17:49:29.183+02:002009-11-15T17:49:29.183+02:00J: I can only agree with your explanation for Dnep...J: I can only agree with your explanation for Dnepropretovsk high<br />apportion of the new clade but in Russia it seems to be evenly<br />distributed among ethnic Russians, regardless even of their apportion<br />of R1a1a*. So no peculiarities for your Lechtic regions.<br /><br />I am more in the line that it has Corded Ware origin and then was<br />re-distributed by Russian historical expansion. <br /><br />And I do think that those who have argued for demic replacement at the Dniepr are very wrong. Actually, considering that most historical invaders of those areas were of Turkic or otherwise North Eurasian origin, the population would be now like that of Kalmykia or almost so.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-47540224777093790792009-11-15T14:22:22.590+02:002009-11-15T14:22:22.590+02:00I have possible explanation regarding the lack of ...I have possible explanation regarding the lack of Y-chromosome marker M458 in western Ukraine and central Belarus. <br /><br />Marker M458 is not much Slavic marker as rather lechitic (polish) and was spread with lechitic tribes.<br /><br />According to Nestor chronicle Eastern Slavic tribes Viatichi (Russian: вя́тичи) and Radimichs (Радимичи in Russian) were of lechitic origins.<br />The map of their settlements and pretensions correlates with marker M458:<br />http://tiny.pl/hxrz7<br /><br />Viatichi were the main tribe of Moscow principolity that is why thay spread marker M458 along with their expansion of Russian territories.<br /><br />And higher frequency of marker M458 north of Crimea could be explained by this fact:<br />Black sea steppes were not populated by Slavs till XIII century (look at the line on above map)when Russians finally destroyed Crimean_Khanate:<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novorossiya<br />Majority of settlers would be from Viatichi turned Ukrainian/Russian.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00410342350730336827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-55586273670967030722009-11-13T04:07:21.270+02:002009-11-13T04:07:21.270+02:00That corresponds exactly with the regions I sugges...That corresponds exactly with the regions I suggested, so we're agreed on that.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-39941302422734580092009-11-12T06:40:40.884+02:002009-11-12T06:40:40.884+02:00In common speech Siberia means Asian Russia (WP: &...In common speech Siberia means Asian Russia (WP: "Siberia is the vast region constituting almost all of Northern Asia" (...) "Historically, Siberia was defined as the whole part of Russia to the east of Ural Mountains, including the Russian Far East"). Khazakstan is not Siberia and certainly Uzbekistan is not Siberia. <br /><br />You may find an overlap in the Altai region which can be considered part of both regions and is in fact an important transitional node, not just between Siberia and Central Asia but also between West and East Eurasia.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-30323055772586042362009-11-12T05:48:43.260+02:002009-11-12T05:48:43.260+02:00"There are controversial indications of migra..."There are controversial indications of migration from Central Asia, not Siberia". <br /><br />That may have been what Blogspot meant. I guess we should specify exactly what region each name covers. Perhaps siberia east of the Urals and north of 50 degrees and Central Asia between the Caspain Sea and the Tien Shan, south of 50 degrees and north of the Iranian Plateau.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-64853553422867121162009-11-11T14:07:40.459+02:002009-11-11T14:07:40.459+02:00is a migration from South Siberia to India confirm...<i>is a migration from South Siberia to India confirmed by the archaeological records?</i> -<br /><br />No. Absolutely not. <br /><br />There are <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration#Material_archaeology" rel="nofollow">controversial indications of migration from Central Asia</a>, not Siberia.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-37830198222576929752009-11-11T13:57:29.632+02:002009-11-11T13:57:29.632+02:00@Anatole Klyosov "By the way, I said "IE...@Anatole Klyosov "By the way, I said "IE R1a1", since there are another Indian R1a1, which came apparently from South Siberia between 8-12,000 ybp. "<br /><br />is a migration from South Siberia to India confirmed by the archaeological records?blogspothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03088607760410869971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-49915189477698619792009-11-09T21:09:18.545+02:002009-11-09T21:09:18.545+02:00I'll take a look to it when I can but I think ...I'll take a look to it when I can but I think the truly temerary idea is to force connections that are most unlikely and that most linguist themselves take not with the proverbial pinch of salt but with a whole barrel of it. If not with mere laughs.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-26189796763768903102009-11-09T15:16:39.506+02:002009-11-09T15:16:39.506+02:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-35681444716298131942009-11-09T13:12:22.337+02:002009-11-09T13:12:22.337+02:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-75323913489035271642009-11-09T12:41:35.769+02:002009-11-09T12:41:35.769+02:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.ashrafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02590059778590185827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-32533684777034259522009-11-09T10:09:50.253+02:002009-11-09T10:09:50.253+02:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-86856163467818148112009-11-09T08:11:49.378+02:002009-11-09T08:11:49.378+02:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-4320088084323417442009-11-09T03:18:33.601+02:002009-11-09T03:18:33.601+02:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.com