tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post5095506185793549036..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: West Eurasian ancestry in eastern and southern Africa (Pickrell et al. 2014)Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger65125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-33946522306396780032014-02-22T02:28:49.001+02:002014-02-22T02:28:49.001+02:00We should discuss this elsewhere. I will message y...We should discuss this elsewhere. I will message you on one of your blogs that you maintain.AdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-43655404702421593992014-02-21T16:31:14.521+02:002014-02-21T16:31:14.521+02:00@AdygheChabadi
You call this discussion of Buddh...@AdygheChabadi <br /><br />You call this discussion of Buddhism in the Meroitic Empire “ utter bunk”, yet you have failed to give any counter evidence. It is sad that you are dishonet.. You continue to ignore the Classical literature claiming Buddhism was practiced in the Meroitic Empire,along with the epigraphic, archaeological and the linguistic evidence supporting the textual evidence. The first Meroitic inscription was written by Queen Shanakdakhete (c.155-177) and it is found at Naga. This indicates that Naga was a center for the spread of Meroitic writing in the Empire.<br /><br />The reality that Naga was the place where Meroitic originated is also the location where Buddhist elements are found in Meroitic iconography. The lotus flower and three headed diety are associated with Buddhism. At Naga Temple we find the god Apedemak with three heads like the gods associated with Buddhism in India, and the figure of a snake with a lion head and human arms coming out of a lotus.<br /><br />The fact that Shanakdakhete introduced Meroitic writing at Naga, where Apedemak was represented in association with Buddhist ideology explains why Kharosthi symbols dominate Meroitic writing as noted by Aubin. In summary, the Meroitic epigraphic, archaeological and linguistic evidence support the textual evidence that Buddhism existed in the Meroitic empire.<br /><br />Glass provides evidence that Kharosthi writing dates back to the first Brahmi inscriptions of India . The fact the writing was used in India by Asoka to produce the rock edicts , demonstrates that Khasrothi was in use long before the introduction of the Meroitic script to Kush.<br /><br />You should not spread lies about Kharosthi You claim the kharosthi is based on egyptian writing and Aramaic. This is false kharosthi is based on Tamili writing. Moreover, you claim that Brahmi is based on proto-sinatic this is also false. The Brahmi writing is based on the Indus Valley writing and Tamili (see: http://www.currentscience.ac.in/Volumes/103/10/1220.pdf ).<br /> <br />Dr. Clyde Wintershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01153945762719431061noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-66249964506005237192014-02-20T22:39:25.349+02:002014-02-20T22:39:25.349+02:00@Clyde Winters
Penelope Aubin was basing her work...@Clyde Winters<br /><br />Penelope Aubin was basing her work off of what you proposed. I am well aware of her paper as I have quoted it in my own.<br /><br />Also, NEARLY all Near Eastern scripts, ultimately, have their basis in Egyptian hieroglyphs (at least in great part) even Kharosthi which is derived from the Aramaic alphabet which is derived from Phoenician which is derived from Proto-Sinaitic which is, at least in great part, derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs. The Roman and Greek alphabets also ultimately derive from Egyptian hieroglyhs (at least in great part). Meroitic is derived of Egyptian as well. The similarity in graphemes can be ascribed to common origin of the scripts, ultimately and in great part, from Egyptian.<br /><br />In <b>The Making of Roman India</b> by Grant Parker from 2008, he states, <i>"Excavations at Quseir al-Qadim beginning in the late 1970s turned up two ostraka inscribed in the southern India's Tamil-Brahmi script. These, which contain the names Kanan and Catan, have been dated to the first century ad. Amidst a find of pottery that can be dated to ad 60—70, the Berenike excavation has also produced two ostraka inscribed in Tamil Brahmi.<br /><br />Archaeological finds constitute the third and most problematic category of evidence. South Asia itself has produced a variety of evidence, particularly from the southwest coast (known variously as Limyrike, the Malabar Coast and Kerala), and the southeast coast (the Coromandel coast or Tamil Nadu); likewise the Red Sea coast, and especially the Egyptian port of Berenike.<br /><br /><b>By contrast, the Nile Valley itself has almost nothing to offer</b>; and, as we have seen above, the archaeological yield from Italy itself has been extremely scant. So Various kinds of material have been found: pots and amphorae, bronzeware, and coins. The best-known Indian site is that of Arikamedu,in part because it was excavated by the British archaeologist Mortimer Wheeler in the years 1944—48; but more recent work has challenged his analysis that this may be viewed as a Roman settlement."</i><br /><br />As for Tarim Basin IE and the Meroitic script...utter bunk.<br /><br />As far as has been discovered...no Buddhists in Meroe or the rest of the Nile Valley except Alexandria in the delta region of Lower Egypt.<br /><br />I think we have occupied this thred enough with this. Take care.AdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-13111711189033713772014-02-18T23:27:15.913+02:002014-02-18T23:27:15.913+02:00@AdygheChabadi
The Tocharian language was spoke...@AdygheChabadi <br /><br /><br />The Tocharian language was spoken by a population that called themselves Kushana. The Meroitic inscriptions provide textual evidence of Tocharian in the language.<br /><br />We can assume that if there is cognition between the Meroitic and the Kharothi scripts we would also find cognition between the Kushana/Tocharian language and Meroitic. <br /><br />A comparison of Meroitic and Tocharian grammatical features also indicates that in many cases Meroitic words average one- three characters. In recent years researchers were able to develop a grammar of Meroitic, without being able to read Meroitic. Hintze (1979) grammar of Meroitic provided the necessary material to compare Meroitic with other languages to find its cognate language.<br /><br /><br />Hintze (1979) was sure that there were a number of Meroitic affixes including:p,ye,-te,-to, and –o. B.G. Trigger in his "Commentary" (Hintze 1979) mentioned several other possible Meroitic affixes including:-n,-te and –b. In addition , A. M. Abdalla in his "Commentary" (Hintze 1979)mentioned three possible verbal suffixes , including:-ñ,-t,-y. The Kushana or Tocharian language includes all of these affixes.<br /><br />Winters took these suggested Meroitic lexemes and compared them to Tocharian to discover if similar affixes existed in Kushana. In Tocharian we find these prefixes: p(ä), the imperfect prefix and imperative, y- the Tocharian element are joined to demonstratives , e.g., yopsa ‘in between’.<br /><br />There are other affixes that relate to the Meroitic suffixes proposed by Abdalla and Hintze (1979) that are explained by Tocharian including –te, the demonstrative ‘this, etc.’; -o, the suffix used to change nouns into adjectives. For example: aiśamñe ‘knowledge’, asimo ‘knowing; klyomñ ’nobility’, klyomo ‘noble’.<br /><br />Other Tocharian affixes which provide insight into Meroitic affixes include –te and -l. The Tocharian locative suffix is –te. The ending particle in Tocharian is –l. The Meroitic –t, corresponds to the –t ‘you’. In Tocharian the pronouns are placed at the end of words: nas-a-m ‘I am’, träkä-s ‘he says’, träkä-t ‘you say’.<br /><br />The –t element in Tocharian can also be used to represent the third person singular e.g., kälpa-t ‘he found’.The p-, element used to form the imperative and imperfect in Tocharian . This affix is used in both Tocharian A and B. For example,Tokh.A klyos "to hear, to listen"p(a)klyos "You listen"p(a)klyossu "s/he listens"Tokh. B klyausp(a)klyaus 'you listen"A. ta, tas, "to lay, to put"ptas 'you lay'B. tes, tas 'to put, to lay'ptes 'you put'.<br /><br />The Tocharian -n-, has many uses . It can be used to form the subjuntive, e.g., yam 'to do', yaman 's/he do(es). It is also used to form the plural se 'son', pl. sewan 'sons; ri 'city', pl. rin 'cities'.The plural in Tocharian is formed by the –ñ. For example,are ‘plough’, pl. areñ ‘ploughs’ ri ‘city’ , pl. riñ ‘cities.<br /><br />Recognition of analogous structural elements in relation to Kushana/ Tocharian and Meroitic allowed us to divide the Meroitic phonemes into words. Griffith (1911a,1911b,1912) provided us with evidence for selected Meroitic nouns.Dr. Clyde Wintershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01153945762719431061noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-34949179255042369382014-02-18T23:14:09.824+02:002014-02-18T23:14:09.824+02:00@AdygheChabadi
You have done nothing to falsify ...@AdygheChabadi <br /><br />You have done nothing to falsify the claim of the Classical writers that Buddhist= Gymnosophists and that Gymnosophist/Buddhists lived in Meroe and Upper Egypt. All you have provided us is your opinion. Opinions are worthless, when confronted with the abundance of archaeological,historical textual evidence of Buddhists in the Nile Valley.<br /><br />There is epigraphic evidence of Buddhist in the Meroitic Empire. Aubin (2003) did a comparison of Meroitic and Kharothi and discovered that 34 out of 42 signs or 81% matched. See: Aubin,P. (2003), Evidence for an Early Nubian Dialect in Meroitic Inscriptions: Phonological and Epigraphic Considerations. Meroitic Newsletter, pp.16-39. Welsby in The Kingdom of Kush, notes that "only four of the [Meroitic] letters resemble the equivalent Egyptian demotic signs" (p.193). This is suprising because earlier Kushites wrote their inscriptions in Egyptian scripts. <br />Dr. Clyde Wintershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01153945762719431061noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-24579247025446516212014-02-17T22:27:42.771+02:002014-02-17T22:27:42.771+02:00@Clyde Winters
Yes, Ashoka sent emissaries to Ale...@Clyde Winters<br /><br />Yes, Ashoka sent emissaries to Alexandria, Egypt during the Ptolemaic period. Even invited one of the Ptolemy's to be a Buddhist. Buddhist monks lived in Alexandria. There was also a great procession of women who displayed the glories of India (270 BCE) in Alexandria. I knew this already. This was not the contention. You claimed that the Egyptians and Meroites were Buddhists.<br /><br />The Kushan coins in Ethiopia are from many centuries after during the Axumite period in Ethiopia (1st Century - 6th Century CE). Confirming trade between Axum, India, and Rome...These were either brought back by an Axumite trader or brought to Axum by an Indian trader.<br /><br />About Quseir-Al-Qadim...<i>1. Tamil Brahmi Script Found in Egypt<br /><br />QUSEIR-AL-QADIM, EGYPT, February 20, 2008: A broken storage jar with inscriptions in an ancient form of Tamil script, dated to the first century BCE., has been excavated in Egypt.<br /><br />Dr. Roberta Tomber, a pottery specialist at the British Museum, London, identified the fragmentary vessel as a storage jar made in India. Iravatham Mahadevan, a specialist in Tamil epigraphy, has confirmed that the inscription on the jar is in Tamil written in the Tamil Brahmi script of about the first century.<br /><br />Earlier excavations at this site about 30 years ago yielded two pottery inscriptions in Tamil Brahmi from the same era. Additionally, a pottery inscription was found in 1995 at Berenike, a Roman settlement of the Red Sea coast of Egypt. These discoveries proved material evidence to corroborate the literary accounts by classical Western authors and the Tamil Sangam poets about the flourishing trade between the India and Rome, via the Red Sea ports, in the early centuries CE.</i><br /><br />This only confirms the extremely well-known trade between Rome and India. <br /><br />My objections were to the Buddhist and "Tocharian" connections to Meroe. What you claim about Egypt being Buddhist and Meroe being Buddhist is outright fallacy and you know this. Expounding half-truths as whole facts is deception of the highest magnitude. There is no known textual evidence of IE languages other than Greek and Latin in Kush/ Nubia. What is clear from reading is that while Indian artifacts have been found in port cities maintained by Rome in Egypt (due to Roman trade) the same evidence is not present for the Nile Valley. Possible Dravidian adoptions in Sumerian, Akkadian, Biblical Hebrew, Greek, and Latin have been long discussed. We "discussed" proto-level lexical parallels between Dravidian and Afroasiatic before.<br />AdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-74891205648250259212014-02-17T03:02:02.830+02:002014-02-17T03:02:02.830+02:00Your comments are ludicris. Gymnosophist was the n...Your comments are ludicris. Gymnosophist was the name given Buddhists. They were not fictitious, as you claim, W. M. Flinders Petrie made this clear when he found them in Egypt..<br /><br /> In addition to the archaeological evidence discovered by Petrie , the classical mention of the Indians settling Meroë, and Asoka's edit sending missionaries to Egypt, we also have a horde of Kushana coins that were found on the floor of a cave at the present monastery-shine at Debra Demo in modern Ethiopia in 1940. <br /><br />Moreover, there is textual material of other Indians in Egypt in addition Gymnosophist/Buddhist communities in Upper Egypt and Kush/Meroe. For example, at Quseir al-Qadim there was a large Indian speaking community (see: R. Salomon, "Epigraphic remains of Indian traders in Egypt", Journal of the American oriental Society, (1991) pp.731-736; and R. Salomon, Addenda,Journal of the American Oriental Society, (1993) pg.593).<br /><br /> These Indians were in Egypt writing messages in their own language, around the time we see a switch from Egyptian hieroglyphics to the Meroitic writing system. All of this supported the traditions of the Meroites that speak of a knowledge of the Kushana/Indians among the Meroites.Dr. Clyde Wintershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01153945762719431061noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-6520815863265379822014-02-16T23:11:42.223+02:002014-02-16T23:11:42.223+02:00@About Time
Thank you for your comments. However,...@About Time<br /><br />Thank you for your comments. However, I think we miss a major point here. No one has found Solomon's temple because the place where it stood is underneath a mosque right now. It is not possible to excavate the area because of political and religious absurdity. Also we must also note that the "Palestinians" bulldozed under the mosque in an attempt, as some would say, to destroy any Jewish history underneath it to remove the Jewish connection to the land. Which is utterly outrageous, but the world is rather repulsively complicit in this ignoble tragedy...hatred of the Jews is a rampant worldwide psychopathy.<br /><br />Also, it is strange, that the Biblical authors also recalled, rather accurately, that there was once a river that ran across Arabia. Science found it. In fact, they found, at least, two major river systems. The river the Bible spoke of had dried up quite some time (between 3500 and 2000 B.C.E ~ 5500 – 4000 ybp) before this was written in the Bible (over 2000 – 1000 years before it was written down). How the Bible writers remembered this is extraordinary to say the least about it, especially, when others seemed to have forgotten it. It is also strange how Job knew the world hanged on nothing and that it was round. The point to this is that the Bible is unique in those viewpoints for that time period and, in fact, entirely accurate, but this is never mentioned. It interesting how people like to cherry-pick things in the Bible and they often do it in great error and ignorance. <br /><br />The Temple at Ain Dara is merely indicative of shared archaeological styles across the Levant. This is not new or any great news. Archaeologists have known about shared archaeological styles in the Levant from almost the beginning. It is just like the cultural and linguistic parallels shared across the ancient Levant. There is a temple in Tanis, Lower Egypt that is similar. Besides that, the temple at Ain Dara pre-dates Solomon’s temple and it also shows that such temples were possible and present in many cities.<br /><br />@terryt<br /><br />I actually said, “Solomon's kingdom”, which is not to speak of an empire. The central kingdom is thus...http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/images/davidmap.gif | http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/Davids-kingdom_with_captions_specifiying_vassal_kingdoms-derivative-work.jpg...exactly as I described to you.<br /><br />To the quote you gave about Solomon and Shalmaneser...Solomon is the Hellenized form of Hebrew: שְׁלֹמֹה (Shalom > Shelomoh > Shlomo) meaning peace or God’s peace. Shalmaneser (Shalmanu/ Shulmanu-asharedu) is derived from Shalmanu (Shulman) is an East Semitic Mesopotamian god of the underworld, fertility, and war. The word Shalmanu/ Shulmanu means “greeting-gift” in later Middle Assyrian meant “audience gift”. The word <i>asharedu, asaredu, asaridu, asherdu, asharid, asarid, ašarēd, etc… </i> which means “foremost, preeminent, vanguard”. The Assyrian word for “peace, well-being” is šalām(u) (Shalām[u]). People have even tried to connect the Egyptian pharaoh Siamun (S3-jmn/ imn) “son (s3) of Amun (jmn/ imn)”, the sixth pharaoh of Egypt during the Twenty-first dynasty, whose name can be sel-amen, seɹ-amen, or sVʔ-amen it depends on what the Egyptological alef is...whether it represents an original *l (alveolar lateral approximant), *ɹ (alveolar approximant), or whether it is *Vʔ (vocalic). The name of the Egyptian pharaoh fails on semantic and phonological grounds.<br /><br />@Clyde Winters<br /><br />I looked up these "gymnosophists in Meroe and Egypt" these are actually fictitious “life stories” and novels written or related by Philostratus (Lucius Flavius Philostratus) and also by Heliodorus of Emesa. For example...http://books.google.com/books?id=mZJ87gJWec8C&pg=PA361&lpg=PA361&dq=gymnosophists+in+Meroe&source=bl&ots=VA6PuBsfBt&sig=A_m6zCq-eztVBvjr4xB-h8pJ3js&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8uX_UsG_AdC0kQf15oDYAw&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=gymnosophists%20in%20Meroe&f=falseAdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-25122146337129720742014-02-16T08:00:14.810+02:002014-02-16T08:00:14.810+02:00"Veritas omnia vincit, hon."
But some..."Veritas omnia vincit, hon." <br /><br />But sometimes it can take a very, very, very long time. I see it was About Time who raised the subject of David and Solomon: <br /><br />"Too early to be Solomon/David, so much have been someone earlier". <br /><br />Further to the discussion on Solomon (although a side issue to the post's subject) I've found out that 'Solomon' is actually the same name as 'Shalmaneser'. Of course that doen't mean they are the same person, but look at this: <br /><br />https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AncientBibleHistory/conversations/topics/53882<br /><br />Quote: <br /><br />"The parallels between Sulmanu-Asarid/Afraid (Shalmaneser) and Solomon of I Kings is overhwhelming". <br /><br />That would easily explain why no evidence for any 'Solomon's Kingdom' based on Jerusalem has ever been found. terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-70601965169026003072014-02-14T22:58:17.259+02:002014-02-14T22:58:17.259+02:00"the temple that fits Biblical measurements i..."the temple that fits Biblical measurements is Ain Dara". <br /><br />So Solomon's empire stretched to norther Syria. <br /><br />http://www.michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/Ayn%20Dara%20Parallel%20to%20Solomons%20Temple.pdf<br /><br />Yet AdygheChabadi said Solomon's empire was 'No larger than modern Israel'. I was sure the Bible claimed it reached the Euphrates. We are left with the question of why did Solomon build many very similar temples, or are we looking at a widespread religion that was in no way confined to the region we know today as Israel? terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-48282141900937618472014-02-14T19:36:15.563+02:002014-02-14T19:36:15.563+02:00
@AdygheChabadi
It is sad that you wrote:
“Serio...<br />@AdygheChabadi <br /><br />It is sad that you wrote:<br />“Seriously, stop it. There is no documentation by any serious Egyptologist or Meroiticist that subscribes to that absurdity. The fact that none of them even bother with it bears witness to its utter lack of merit. I will leave it at that. I do not have to provide evidence against what is already fully well-known to be a self-evident lie. I shall not dignify it any further.”<br />This is a sad statement. You claim I am lying without any citations to the contrary when I have presented numerous documentation to support my claims about the Meroites and other groups. I know you are not ignorant , yet you claim that W. M. Flinders Petrie --a well known Egyptologist—is not a serious Egyptologist. He noted Buddhist in Egypt as noted above . And JDM Derrett is recognized for his work on Buddhism. <br />You claim to be working on Meroitic yet you fail to acknowledge that almost every Classicist and Egyptologist have recognized for over 100 years, that Philostratus’:The Life of Apollonius of Tyana and Flavius Philostratus’, Vita Apollonii, , provides us valuable information on the Meroitic Empire. This documentation Is prima facie evidence that my statements have merit, while you just can’t handle the truth, and prefer to live a lie and promote dogmas lacking any archaeological, genetic and/or textual foundation.<br /><br />Dr. Clyde Wintershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01153945762719431061noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-36521686683053301982014-02-14T17:53:43.728+02:002014-02-14T17:53:43.728+02:00@AdygheChabadi, the temple that fits Biblical meas...@AdygheChabadi, the temple that fits Biblical measurements is Ain Dara. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ain_Dara_temple<br /><br />Deuteronomistic historians were piecing things together much later and in very very changed circumstances in any case. It's like asking a Victorian about King Arthur. <br /><br />Where were these places exactly? Who knows. And things were written in code for practical reasons. Over time the poetic metaphor and code becomes something people read literally.<br /><br />Were these ancient pops just a tiny handful of "nobodies" with no importance except writing some laws and ethics and stories? It's hard to really know. About Timehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09236048173229545609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-82649134086874719142014-02-14T04:47:49.270+02:002014-02-14T04:47:49.270+02:00@terryt
Veritas omnia vincit, hon.
@Clyde Winte...@terryt<br /><br />Veritas omnia vincit, hon. <br /><br />@Clyde Winters<br /><br />Seriously, stop it. There is no documentation by any serious Egyptologist or Meroiticist that subscribes to that absurdity. The fact that none of them even bother with it bears witness to its utter lack of merit. I will leave it at that. I do not have to provide evidence against what is already fully well-known to be a self-evident lie. I shall not dignify it any further. AdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-81524017622300638122014-02-13T22:56:05.908+02:002014-02-13T22:56:05.908+02:00@ AdygheChabadi:
Faith conquers facts, as usual....@ AdygheChabadi: <br /><br />Faith conquers facts, as usual. terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-21193995147123611372014-02-13T21:07:00.898+02:002014-02-13T21:07:00.898+02:00@AdygheChabadi
Just because the Egyptians recogn...@AdygheChabadi<br /><br /><br />Just because the Egyptians recognized the Temehu as residents of Libya did not make them Berbers. Modern Berbers originated in Northwest Africa—not Libya.<br />Secondly, you have not provided any evidence disputing Jelinek (1985) and Quellec (1985) identification of this population as members of the C-Group culture. Other researchers have noted how these people resembled such Niger Congo groups as the Fulani.<br />The Berbers in Siwa are not native to the area. These Berbers are Amazigh and came to Siwa to settled the region due to a drought. Once they found the Siwa Oasis they returned to Algeria and Morocco to invite other Amazigh to settle the area. (See: http://www.siwaoasis.com/siwa_his.html )<br /><br />Everyone knows that Buddhism did not originate in the West. Yet, even today many Americans practice Buddhism.<br />It is clear you know very little about Egyptian and Meroitic history. Philostratus:The Life of Apollonius of Tyana , makes it clear that the Gymnosophist lived in Upper Egypt and the Meroitic Empire. The Gymnosophists were Buddhists. And Flavius Philostratus, the writer of the Vita Apollonii, Vol.1 , claimed that the Gymnosophists of Meroe originally came from India (see F.C. Conybeare, Philostratus:The Life of Apollonius of Tyana(p.45),1950).<br />Zacharias P. Thundy, in Buddha and Christ make it clear that the edits of Asoka (c.274-236 BC) indicate that this ruler sent missionaries to Egypt to preach the Buddhist Dharma(pp.242-243).<br />W. M. Flinders Petrie, The peoples of the Persian Empire, Man( (1908) No.71:pp.129-130). found evidence of Buddhist colonist, which he claimed dated back to the Persian period of Egypt (c 525-405BC). he wrote:"on the right side, at the top is the Tibetan Mongolian, below that the Aryan woman of the Punjab, and at the base a seated figure in Indian attitude with the scarf over the left shoulder. These are the first remains of Indians known on the Mediterranean. Hitherto there have been no material evidences for that connection which is stated to have existed, both by embassies from Egypt and Syria to India, and by the great Buddist mission sent by Asoka as far west as Greece and Cyrene. We seem now to have touched the Indian colony in Memphis, and we may hope for more light on that connection which seems to have been so momentous for Western thought" (p.129). If Petrie's dating is correct this puts Buddhists in Egypt two hundred years before Asoka, sent Buddhist missionaries to Egypt.<br />In addition , Meroites may have played an important role in Buddhism because Blemmyae, a prominent group in the Meroitic Sudan are mentioned in Pali text Tipitaka.<br />JDM Derrett, (2002) A Blemmya in India, Numen (49:460-474)). wrote that in early Pali text " wehave a Blemmya (an African) in front rank Buddhist texts of very respectable age (p.465).The Buddhist text where Blemmya were mentioned are very old. The Vinaya pitaka, is dated to the 4th century B.C.E.<br />As you can see the Meroites and Egyptians, in contradiction to your claims, were very familiar with Buddhism and Buddhist.Dr. Clyde Wintershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01153945762719431061noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-52368370264641965652014-02-13T01:50:31.476+02:002014-02-13T01:50:31.476+02:00@terryt
“No. It's biased because it makes ass...@terryt<br /><br /><i>“No. It's biased because it makes assumptions without offering any evidence.”</i><br /><br />They do offer evidence, circumstantial as it is, but it is evidence and it is accumulative. Just because it is not what you desire to see does not mean that it is invalid or inconsequential. As I said, you are opposed to the idea of the Bible anyway. So it does not matter how much evidence is accumulated in favor of what it says, you will always say it is not enough. Like Garfinkel said about Finkelstein…when will enough be enough? It gets to point when the evidences accumulate to critical mass and can no longer be dismissed, not that they ever should have been dismissed in the first place.<br /><br /><i>“But those scientists were extraploating from what they assumed.”</i><br /><br />All extrapolations are speculation or assumptions based on the known, so your statement is not logical. He extrapolated from the evidences he had at hand. <br /><br /><i>“But hang on. Solomon's Kingdom is reputed to be very large. Not one of many small kingdoms that existed in the region.”</i><br /><br />No larger than modern Israel. Well maybe slightly larger including some of the lands of the east bank of the Jordan. Secondly, Edom, Moab, Ammon, were all subject to both David’s and Solomon’s kingdom. David did the conquering, Solomon maintained and eventually lost much of what David gained. As for Khirbet Qeiyafa (Elah Fortress), it is literally about a one day’s walk (West by Southwest) from Jerusalem (20 miles). That is well within the united Israelite kingdom’s range. <br /><br /><i>“I agree that myths provide a guide, but we need to still find concrete evidence.”</i><br /><br />You are full of logical fallacy. You say myth, but you have no proof of it being a myth. In effect you are in the same boat I am to some degree. I say it did exist based upon the ever-accumulating evidence. You say myth because you are an atheist without much evidence for that either. This is not about God’s existence. It is supposed to be about the genetic heritage of East African populations, but somehow, it always comes back or goes to the Jews (around 0.2% of the world population).<br /><br />About Sargon the Great…There is no physical evidence of Sargon the Great, only stories. That sounds familiar, hmmm. There is very little to no evidence for others as well.<br /><br />Finkelstein and Solomon…In <i>The Bible Unearthed</i>, Finkelstein and Silberman concede that David and Solomon may have been historical characters, they posit no united monarchy, no great palace or Temple in Jerusalem during their alleged era. We know now that they were wrong about the dating of Iron Age II, so his objections of that type to the Israelite united monarchy are now in gross error.<br /><br />About circular reasoning…He found an extensive metalwork operation which was most active during the time of Solomon’s reign. He then connected the two…that is extrapolative not circular. Extrapolation is linear in either direction. He based his assumption on what is known.<br /><br />About the Iron Age in Egypt…The Egyptians had been working iron for, at least, 2 millennia before the people in Israel. http://www.livescience.com/38995-egyptian-beads-made-from-meteorites.html. Also, Iron metal is singularly scarce in collections of Egyptian antiquities. Bronze remained the primary material there until the conquest by Assyria in the Late or Saite Period 656 - 639 BC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age#Ancient_Egypt. So it seems Egypt had little use for iron. So no, pre-Assyrian Conquest Egypt did not have an iron age per se.AdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-1792968604731910762014-02-12T11:26:29.901+02:002014-02-12T11:26:29.901+02:00Can You professionals pinpoint a location of an is...Can You professionals pinpoint a location of an island to be the East of Ethiopia south of Eifrat and Southwest of Gujarat and Dwarka (Khrishnas residency on coast when he was not on the island Mahabharata tells a lot) .<br /><br />This island should be yhe origin of R haplogroups and probably also Jewish. <br /><br />As this island perished people flew in various directions obviously Ethiopia and Zagros / Caucasus mountains and India.<br /><br />Is not the island in Indian Ocean giving much simpler explanation of origin and dispersion routes of certain haplogroups languaged habits cultural complexity as well as flood legends and Atlantis myths.<br /><br />Has it not strikef You that Gobekli Tepe circles replicate Atkantis while burial of previous levels is a ritual that both commemorates and tries to avoid the filling of real Atlantis with mud?<br /><br />I have not been able to understand why clear reference to Atlantis in Mahabharata together with its catastrophic sinking has not ben used widely to search for it in Indus sand delta region ( its buried under lot of sand since it sank)mmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02671574648700650962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-79989397850803088152014-02-11T05:15:59.247+02:002014-02-11T05:15:59.247+02:00"Is it biased because it does not agree with ..."Is it biased because it does not agree with the precious Israel Finkelstein???" <br /><br />No. It's biased because it makes assumptions without offering any evidence. <br /><br />"Last I checked, scientists from all branches infer or extrapolate from what is known". <br /><br />But those scientists were extraploating from what they assumed. <br /><br />"No one would deny that small kingdoms existed outside of the territory considered part of the united Israel, not even the Bible". <br /><br />But hang on. Solomon's Kingdom is reputed to be very large. Not one of many small kingdoms that existed in the region. <br /><br />"if it can be found within the general confines of what was the territory of the united Israel and it is known they spoke a Judean language…inference and extrapolation can be safely applied. If it were otherwise then it would not be a safe inference". <br /><br />I agree that myths provide a guide, but we need to still find concrete evidence. <br /><br />"but clearly stated that there were others. Sargon is mostly only talked about by the Sumerians. Are the Sumerians more trustworthy than the Biblical writers?" <br /><br />Possibly. At least in that example we have concrete evidence and names from the period. <br /><br />" I am only following what your precious Finkelstein himself said. He believes Solomon existed" <br /><br />Does he? Last I read he suggested Solomon was a semi-mythical accumulation of all the desirable traits a ruler should have. <br /><br />"I think you should read this link from the same mfa.gov.il site" <br /><br />Quote: <br /><br />"He and his team were able to show that the copper mining at the site reached its peak some three centuries later than thought - during the rule of the great biblical kings.'We didn’t find anything in particular that can connect the mines to the figure of King Solomon. The big deal is that the mines are dated to the time that he was presumed to be ruling this area,' explains Ben-Yosef". <br /><br />And you reckon that's not circular reasoning? And: <br /><br />"'We now have a strong indication that the mines are not Egyptian, but from the days of the Iron Age,' says Ben-Yosef". <br /><br />So Egypt never had an 'Iron Age'? terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-53297592651877429142014-02-11T00:52:43.813+02:002014-02-11T00:52:43.813+02:00@Clyde Winters
Meroitic is/ was not Niger-Congo pe...@Clyde Winters<br />Meroitic is/ was not Niger-Congo period. Meroitic is most likely Afroasiatic even what is known about its case structure more closely matches Afroasiatic than anything Nilo-Saharan. I know this because I am currently studying the language. It has, as expected, many possible Egyptian lexical adoptions. IE was never spoken, as far as has been discerned, in Africa before the Greeks and Romans. Buddhism is not from the West. It originated in eastern Subcontinental Asia (between the 6th to 4th centuries BCE)…a time that would have coincided with Egypt’s Late Period/ [Saite Period ~ 672 BCE to 525 BCE] (664 BCE until 332 BCE) and the early Ptolemaic Kingdom (332 BCE – 30 BCE). It is well known during this time period the Egyptian continued with their own indigenous religion as well as adopting aspects of Hellenistic religion. Buddhism likely did not spread beyond the Subcontinent for centuries. Egypt had little contact with Subcontinental Asia in ancient times outside of long-distance trade via land routes.<br /><br />You are incorrect about Berbers in Egypt…The Berbers of the Siwa Oasis certainly do exist. The ancient Egyptians also recognized the Temehu as Libyan aka Berber. So it is not just Blazek but many other authors who recognize this as well as the ancient Egyptians themselves. Unless you can prove the ancient Egyptians were lying the facts stand unassailed.<br /><br />According to Wikipedia, <i>”In the third millennium BC, proto-Berber speakers spread across the area from the central North Africa to Egypt. In the last millennium BC, another Berber expansion created the Berber peoples noted in Roman records. The final spread occurred in the first millennium BC, when the Tuareg moved into the central Sahara, by then possessing camels…</i><br /><br />As far as genetics go…the Berbers are considered indigenous as far as autosomes go. As far as Y-DNA E-M81 that is either indigenous or from the East. Linguistically, Berber is clearly Afroasiatic and likely came from the direction of other Afroasiatic languages…the east, either northeast Africa or the Middle East.<br /><br />I shall not debate the foolishness of Berbers being German. That is utter bunk. No serious scholar even gives that room in a discussion. Neither should you if you are a real scholar.<br />AdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-46133058687756641082014-02-10T22:35:17.028+02:002014-02-10T22:35:17.028+02:00-cont.-
@terryt
I think you should read this link...-cont.-<br /><br />@terryt<br />I think you should read this link from the same mfa.gov.il site: http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/IsraelExperience/History/Pages/King-Solomon-copper-mines-could-really-be-his-22-Oct-2013.aspx <br /><br />Oops, the mines do date to the time of Solomon and if one has read the Bible one already knows the King David had conquered the Edomites (and Edom) and that even under the early rule of Solomon before an uprising by one or two of the descendants of the Edomites not slain by David in his conquest of their territory. The Bible refers to the area in (1 Kings 9:26): "King Solomon also built ships in Ezion-Geber, which is near Eloth in Edom, on the shores of the Red Sea." Which would suggest Solomon still had retained control of the region during the early years of his reign. He lost the territory in his later reign as I mentioned. Also Wikipedia backs up what I said which was actually paraphrased by me from another article…Wikipedia: <i>“A rock carving of Ramses III with Hathor is located at the top of a flight of step carved into the stone next to the shrine.[9] <b>When the Egyptians left the area in the middle of the 12th century BCE.</b>”</i> So it is known that King David conquered the Edomites and control was maintained until the latter years of Solomon’s reign. This means rather obviously the Edomites would have worked for either Solomon or David or both.<br /><br />As far as the camel bones are concerned this has been debated and there is too much evidence to the contrary. Camels have been domesticated in the Near East for quite some time before the Iron Age. Also Abraham is Mesopotamian and not a Canaanite. There is evidence of camel domestication that goes back to the time of Abraham in Mesopotamia, possibly even in Egypt and the Levant.<br /><br />An article from Tel Aviv University and book chapter you should find extremely interesting: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=13&ved=0CDAQFjACOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmoodle.tau.ac.il%2Fpluginfile.php%2F86445%2Fmod_forum%2Fattachment%2F6473%2FCamel%2520domestication%2520ANE.pdf&ei=pNX4UsO7NIiSyAGOuoGIBw&usg=AFQjCNFRAWCQfEY-GYmxG7Wh-HgagqXRCA&bvm=bv.60983673,d.aWc&cad=rja <br /><br />http://books.google.com/books?id=GtCL2OYsH6wC&pg=RA1-PA13&lpg=RA1-PA13&dq=domesticated+camels+middle+east&source=bl&ots=x5sfjyq6vg&sig=LPpJpDa5hHk1wf662WAe2IggyfE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pNX4UsO7NIiSyAGOuoGIBw&ved=0CF0Q6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q=domesticated%20camels%20middle%20east&f=false <br /><br />Also, you should scroll down to the middle of this page read about Mr. Finkelstein’s revision of his dates and the momentous thing that is: http://www.aiarch.org.au/newsletters.htm (Australian Institute of Archaeology). It means he was wrong…uh-oh…<br /><br />I believe what I believe because that is what the evidences I see lead me to believe. I have great faith, but I also have great intelligence. Unlike many people of faith, I can answer for why I believe and what I believe.AdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-68094219180297505682014-02-10T22:31:58.646+02:002014-02-10T22:31:58.646+02:00@terryt
I did not omit anything. I merely pointed...@terryt<br /><br /><i>I did not omit anything. I merely pointed out the biased nature and circular reasoning of the links you posted. Not a single one provided any 'evidence' for Solomon's existence, although the mentions of David are convincing enough.</i><br /><br />Is it biased because it does not agree with the precious Israel Finkelstein???<br /><br /><i>The only comparison I've seen so far is with Sargon. Yet we have quite a bit of evidence for his existence:</i> <br /><br />I actually said that there are others like Sargon…that was omitted by you. I named Sargon of Akkad, but clearly stated that there were others. Sargon is mostly only talked about by the Sumerians. Are the Sumerians more trustworthy than the Biblical writers? I read that Wikipedia article before my previous response to you.<br /><br />About the claims of circular reasoning…not circular, but extrapolative reasoning. Last I checked, scientists from all branches infer or extrapolate from what is known. Those sites are as you said…outside what would be a united Israel. No one would deny that small kingdoms existed outside of the territory considered part of the united Israel, not even the Bible. Yes, my friend those kingdoms are mentioned in the Bible itself. The point is, if it can be found within the general confines of what was the territory of the united Israel and it is known they spoke a Judean language…inference and extrapolation can be safely applied. If it were otherwise then it would not be a safe inference.<br /><br />About claims of assumptions…no, I don’t assume, I am only following what your precious Finkelstein himself said. He believes Solomon existed and this is the time in which he says Solomon existed. He does not believe Solomon was the king of the type described in the Bible however. Also, I read all these links before my previous response to you, terryt. I think it is obvious since I did quote from them. Several actually said the same thing.<br /><br />-cont.-AdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-3397388771945438952014-02-10T18:26:08.660+02:002014-02-10T18:26:08.660+02:00Languages can hang on in remote outposts of empire...Languages can hang on in remote outposts of empires or expansion ranges. Look at Celtic in the islamd outskirts of W Europe (almost certainly did not originate there and maybe reached places like Ireland and Scotland pretty late).<br /><br />If Ethio-Semitic has archaicisms also in Akkadian, maybe it's for the same reason. Hyksos were in touch with Kush for sure (both allied at times) and probably spoke something like Akkadian. Assyrians were in a Africa too (Egypt) at the right time window (post Hyksos but related Semitic culture).<br /><br />The big mystery is what was happening in Saba, Ethiopia etc btw 1300-700 BC. The Arabs have little idea and just talk about "vanished Arabs." Ethiopians says it was Jewish. Remember, 10 tribes from the bigger, richer, more cosmopolitan, and more populous (according to Finkelstein) northern Omride kingdom rebelled 900s BC against Judah. Northern kingdom / Samaria was conquered 732 and 720 BC and lots of people were deported to outskirts of Assyria (big empire that was in Egypt ie Africa). Where btw Akkadian was the lingua franca. <br /><br />Data give a time window 1300-700 BCE. Tell me why it isn't from Omride populations.About Timehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09236048173229545609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-4394819121705516242014-02-09T19:57:22.005+02:002014-02-09T19:57:22.005+02:00@andrew:
"The source East African population...@andrew:<br /><br />"The source East African population according to the supplemental data in Pickrell (2014) had 25% West Eurasian admixture. This is lower than essentially all of the linguistically Semitic and Cushitic populations of modern Ethiopia and is instead within the range of Ethiopia's linguistically Omotic populations at the fringe of the Afro-Asiatic/non-Afro-Asiatic linguistic boundary in Africa. "<br /><br />It's not that different from the Borana Oromo. The least Eurasian Oromos in the Ethiopian dataset from Behar et al. were samples collected in areas close to the Kenyan border. <br /><br />In Tishkoff's 2009 study, Iraqw (South Cushitic) and Datog (Nilotic speakers with heavy South Cushitic influence) pastoralists from Tanzania were sampled. These populations have the highest frequency and diversity of the E-M293 Y-DNA lineage seen in southern Africa, and carry a lactase persistence allele which has been found in southern Africa. Iraqw and Datog are slightly less West Eurasian than the Oromo clans from southern Ethiopia and northern Kenya, actually 25% would be a decent estimate for their West Eurasian ancestry. These groups are probably a decent proxy for the eastern African ancestors of southern African pastoralists.Lankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09164328821211694856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-10414919416529205742014-02-09T19:30:08.115+02:002014-02-09T19:30:08.115+02:00Wow it's a fantastic post, very important post...Wow it's a fantastic post, very important post. <a href="http://www.7dayscleaning.com.au/carpet-cleaning-sydney.asp" rel="nofollow">Carpet cleaning</a>Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13426089543478927532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-639327074723419492014-02-09T16:06:49.238+02:002014-02-09T16:06:49.238+02:00@Andrew
“ For example, the archaeological evidenc...@Andrew<br /><br />“ For example, the archaeological evidence concerning just when the Neolithic reached Ethiopia does not tell a clear story. It doesn't definitively rule out a late date in the late Copper Age or early Bronze Age,”<br /><br /><br />I disagree. The archaeological oral traditions would place Proto-Semitic in Ethiopia. Ethiopian Semitic is almost identical to Akkadian, dating to ca. the 23rd century BC. This supports the high antiquity of Ethiopian Semitic language.<br /><br /><br /><br />It is clear that the Proto-Semitic speakers lived in Africa. Wolf Leslau (1951,1957) has made it clear that Ethiopic and South Arabic form a dialectical unity. Dialectical unity means that two or more<br />languages form a unified dialect.The South Arabian languages: Sabaean, Minaean and Hadramautic, are slightly different from modern South Arabic, but analogous to the Ethiopian languages.<br /><br />According to Haupt, Akkadian ,Minaean and Ethiopic all belong to the same group of Semitic languages , even though they are separated in time and by great geographical distance. This is surprising considering the fact that Ethiopic and Akkadian are separated by many hundreds of years. The best example of this unity is the presence of shared archaicism .(Leslau 1951) The linguistic feature of shared archaicism is the appearance of the vowel after the first consonant of the imperfect. (Hertzron & Bender 1976, p.23)<br /><br />Hebrew and Arabic lack dialectical unity to Ethiopian Semitic or shared archaicism with Akkadian. This represents the influence of the Indo-European speaking Jectanid tribes on South Arabic.Dr. Clyde Wintershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01153945762719431061noreply@blogger.com