tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post4999057580225090341..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: TreeMix analysis of North Eurasians (and an African surprise)Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-1624597171188187552012-05-22T14:30:42.991+03:002012-05-22T14:30:42.991+03:00Dieneke, will you be making TreeMix analyses in th...Dieneke, will you be making TreeMix analyses in the near future?Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-52570839125688530432012-03-23T03:09:52.566+02:002012-03-23T03:09:52.566+02:00"But D is absent from South India. And its pr..."But D is absent from South India. And its presence in both the Andamans and in Tibet/South China suggests that the Andamans were settled from somewhere round the northern Bay of Bengal, or possibly from Burma (the closest part of the mainland to the Andamans). Most languages of Burma are classified as 'Tibeto-Burman' so it's reasonable to suspect some influence in Burma from further north. I'm not sure of the extent of haplogroup D in Burma."<br /><br /><br />The Andamanese(with Jarawa at near 100%) carry D*, and Tibeto-Burmans D1. D3a is common in Tibet. <br /><br />Andamanese languages do not show a relationship to any language family spoken to the northeast, although connections have been suggested to Papuan languages.<br /><br />Tibeto-Burman was likely spread to the south by neolithic farmers of Mongoloid affinity.<br />This does not describe the settlement of the Andamans which was much earlier than the neolithic. <br /><br />Burma was probably, like Thailand and much of south Asia, originally settled by Negrito-like people.<br /><br />There is an Andamanese-like element (Asi) in South Asia including Northern india and Pakistan and as far north west as the Brahui. Andamanese mtdna M2 and M4 are common in India, unlike Andamanese Ydna haplogroups, which are mostly rare there.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423921471342306475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-19377082290468797592012-03-22T19:07:12.495+02:002012-03-22T19:07:12.495+02:00This comment has been removed by the author.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423921471342306475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-53344619399914340942012-03-22T18:33:14.512+02:002012-03-22T18:33:14.512+02:00This comment has been removed by the author.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423921471342306475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-1986078202919641312012-03-22T18:12:18.430+02:002012-03-22T18:12:18.430+02:00This comment has been removed by the author.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423921471342306475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-15023037166319386252012-03-22T04:01:37.466+02:002012-03-22T04:01:37.466+02:00"D is also in Andaman islanders. Post neolith..."D is also in Andaman islanders. Post neolithic West Eurasian influence is significant even in the south of mainland India, and one imagines more strongly male" <br /><br />But D is absent from South India. And its presence in both the Andamans and in Tibet/South China suggests that the Andamans were settled from somewhere round the northern Bay of Bengal, or possibly from Burma (the closest part of the mainland to the Andamans). Most languages of Burma are classified as 'Tibeto-Burman' so it's reasonable to suspect some influence in Burma from further north. I'm not sure of the extent of haplogroup D in Burma.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-69995079632894627932012-03-22T03:39:40.504+02:002012-03-22T03:39:40.504+02:00">> DE emerges in Africa, with a handfu...">> DE emerges in Africa, with a handful of martime equipped DE men make their way to Asia<br /><br />Those maritime equipped DE men had some ocean-crossing skillz if they made it from Africa to the Andamans.<br /><br />Actually, there is no reason to think that the expansion of DE was maritime, unless you think Tibet/Mongolia are easily accessible by sea."<br /> <br />Whether it was maritime, went along the S. coast of Asia, or a more inland route, it could have been mostly wiped in certain areas (namely India and much of, now Indo European and Dravidian speaking South Asia) between the Andamans and its current range by the post-neolithic Ancestral North Indian and other West Eurasian migrations.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423921471342306475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-18172973639896689792012-03-21T18:53:08.472+02:002012-03-21T18:53:08.472+02:00>> DE emerges in Africa, with a handful of m...>> DE emerges in Africa, with a handful of martime equipped DE men make their way to Asia<br /><br />Those maritime equipped DE men had some ocean-crossing skillz if they made it from Africa to the Andamans.<br /><br />Actually, there is no reason to think that the expansion of DE was maritime, unless you think Tibet/Mongolia are easily accessible by sea.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-68967277839485424452012-03-21T15:48:52.384+02:002012-03-21T15:48:52.384+02:00"..Problem with that is that D is absent (or ..."..Problem with that is that D is absent (or virtually so) from India. It is found only in the extreme northeast .."<br /><br />D is also in Andaman islanders. Post neolithic West Eurasian influence is significant even in the south of mainland India, and one imagines more strongly maleUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423921471342306475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-12218083947853381612012-03-20T06:24:15.255+02:002012-03-20T06:24:15.255+02:00"DE emerges in Africa, with a handful of mart..."DE emerges in Africa, with a handful of martime equipped DE men make their way to Asia (probably after 45kya and before 30kya and close to 30kya than 45kya), have kids with local women in India, and take marginal spaces left over after earlier waves". <br /><br />Problem with that is that D is absent (or virtually so) from India. It is found only in the extreme northeast and there is almost certainly a product of later movement from Tibet/South China. Difficult to make a convincing argument for D having moved easy via India.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-89208007897386738832012-03-19T04:17:41.157+02:002012-03-19T04:17:41.157+02:00"how do you explain the fact that Eurasia has..."how do you explain the fact that Eurasia has DE and CF, and Africa only E?"<br /><br />Africa has A, B and E, of course. CF is derivative (remotely) from B which is derivative (remotely) from A. DE is also derivative (remotely) from B.<br /><br />Proto-Eurasians bring Y-DNA CF and mtDNA L3 (or pre-emerged M and N) to Eurasia. DE emerges in Africa, with a handful of martime equipped DE men make their way to Asia (probably after 45kya and before 30kya and close to 30kya than 45kya), have kids with local women in India, and take marginal spaces left over after earlier waves. <br /><br />Y-DNA E and mtDNA L makes its way by later migration from Africa into Europe in the Holocene.Andrew Oh-Willekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537151821869153861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-61610518362154903602012-03-19T04:11:39.989+02:002012-03-19T04:11:39.989+02:00"Sardinians/Basques are the only two South-We..."Sardinians/Basques are the only two South-West Eurasian populations included, and any back-migration into Africa must have originated in the southern parts of West Eurasia."<br /><br />My guess is that the directionality comes from there being more European than African samples, and the Sardinian/Basque link is not particular to those populations but would be general to Southern Europeans who have non-trivial Y-DNA E and mtDNA L, which probably represents secondary expansion Out of Africa in the Holocene, rather than back migration into Africa from Europe.Andrew Oh-Willekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537151821869153861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-7876650397987799422012-03-18T02:39:12.957+02:002012-03-18T02:39:12.957+02:00Re. the relationship of Sahel farming and early Ba...Re. the relationship of Sahel farming and early Bantu:<br /><br />The Bantu expansion involved forest crops and<br />likely none from the Sahel crops or goats initially. It moved along rivers and sometimes relied a lot on fishing, speeding up later from many factors including the new use of iron. Ancestral Eastern Bantu speakers picked up some of the Sahel package in the E. Central Africa lakes region ca. 600 bc. from Nilo Saharans, and it later spread to some Western Bantu areas. Much Associated vocabulary in said Bantu zones shows Nilo-Saharan or E. Bantu neologistic origins.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423921471342306475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-18809729474959141292012-03-18T02:29:49.880+02:002012-03-18T02:29:49.880+02:00Dolgan=DogonDolgan=Dogonpconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-87217103511344413622012-03-18T01:59:33.076+02:002012-03-18T01:59:33.076+02:00@Unknown,
mtDNA L3 is also found in Saudi Arabia,...@Unknown,<br /><br />mtDNA L3 is also found in Saudi Arabia, so again I don't think we can definitely say that it evolved in East Africa.<br /><br />But you are right that it would be informative to see East African, but also North West Africans, Dolgans, Fulbe/Fulani, Socotrans and Yemenis included in a re-analysis.pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-29893302120841414242012-03-18T01:52:46.263+02:002012-03-18T01:52:46.263+02:00@Unknown,]
In the above old comments, I should of...@Unknown,]<br /><br />In the above old comments, I should of course have used E1b1, rather than E1b1b.<br /><br />You have some good points there!<br /><br />AFAIK, the jury is out on the direction of spread of E1b1a, my take is that it spread in a 3-pronged wave:<br />1. West to Northern Africa<br />2. South to Eastern Africa<br />3. South West to West Africa<br /><br />All from a source in the Natufian Culture - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natufian_culturepconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-30111047557189735362012-03-17T20:18:49.008+02:002012-03-17T20:18:49.008+02:00I think that in this case Sardinians/Basques are m...I think that in this case Sardinians/Basques are merely acting as a proxy for L3(xM,N)-bearing East Africans. Consider that Yoruba are nearly 100% east African paternally (Y-DNA E) and roughly 1/3 east African on the maternal (L3(xM,N)) side. That should equal roughly 66.5% East African ancestry, which is pretty close to the 64% figure produced in your exercise.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10640050537781786329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-25253476147793119112012-03-17T13:27:25.846+02:002012-03-17T13:27:25.846+02:00"2. Next crop farming, spread by E1b1b, and s..."2. Next crop farming, spread by E1b1b, and spreading into the Sahel, where they are halted by climate for a few thousand years, till they exchange some of their crops for more tropical ones, and spread on again as the Bantu Expansion."<br /> <br /> Most Berber groups (The more heavily Subsaharan -admixed Tuareg subgroups are the only exceptions I know.) are dominated E1b1b which is also the most common Eurasian subclade. It is relatively rare in Subsaharan Africa and rarer toward the west. <br />West Africa's most common subclade is E1b1a which occurs at about 90% in the Yoruba and some nearby peoples, near 100% in the proto-Bantu related Bamileke of Cameroon, and is rare in Eurasians <br /> <br />The Near Eastern origin theory for West african farming, though once more popular, is now mostly abandoned by researchers and does not seem to me very likely. Among other reasons, the fact that there is no evidence of overlap or contact between the farming traditions of the two areas during the early phase of the latter makes independent invention seem more plausible. <br />One might expect some transfer of the Near Eastern package/s of crops, at least to some of the Sahel/savannah, which is much more dry than the forest and not more drastically different from the hotter parts of Western Eurasia that support grain. Agricultural diffusion across eco-zones, especially with the kind of substantial gene flow proposed here, with no evidence of crop transfer at any time(no transitions) is unusual, especially in light of the large environmental ranges gained by Near Eastern cereals, Asian rice, and Maize. Another comparison might be made to the spread of African rice from from the irregularly rainy but often very fertile middle niger floodplain in Mali to the less fertile coastal swamps of Sierra Leone and Senegambia. <br />The earliest sites in both West African crop zones show a gradual transition to agriculture from a phase of relying on intensive gathering/proto cultivation. This process suggests and is typical of independent domestication and seems less consistent with a local response to the arrival of a fully agricultural group. <br /><br />Nor is it clear that forest zone farming owed much to the Sahel/Savanah. The earliest dates of both are roughly equal, with tentative evidence of greater age in the first. <br />Forest crop cultivation also predates the arrival of goats and sheep in the region. Most estimates for earliest oil palm and yam cultivation range from around ca. 4500-2500 bc. in parts of W. Cameroon/S.E .Nigeria. The oldest caprines near the transitional zone are dated 2300-1900 bc in Gajiganna of north Nigeria and 2000-1500 bc in Kintampo of central Ghana. The oldest goats in the S. E Nigeria/W. Cameroon region are ca. 800-500 bc at Yaounde, Cameroon.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423921471342306475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-6791215127429408212012-03-17T13:06:35.412+02:002012-03-17T13:06:35.412+02:00From what I CAN see Sardinia and French Basque are...<i>From what I CAN see Sardinia and French Basque are NOT showing up near the roots of European branches. They actually seem to show up as ultimate termini, like a recent offshoot of a Kent-like population. This is unexpected.</i><br /><br />Annie,<br /><br />I commented on that in Dienekes' other tree study. Clearly, there is more diversity and a lot of admixture going on in the East in Asia, and the algorithm picks those, first. Without migrations/ admixture on the high-priority list within Europe, it appears that the code prefers a northern population route, there. I am quite sure this will look different in an analysis that concentrates on Europe, with Europe-specific admixtures. <br /><br />Hopefully, Dienekes has some time and energy left for such a study. ;)eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-42728777428185394622012-03-17T08:46:53.003+02:002012-03-17T08:46:53.003+02:00I see there even genetically so close national nam...I see there even genetically so close national names like Norwegians and Swedes separated in own branches and wonder is it sensible to make this kind of trees by preselecting nationalities and in fact branches. There should be some another way to name branches to be faithful for individual level genetic attributes. This used way sounds in some cases like making "nationalistic" history. It is however plausible that genes are much older than nations. The the last millennium has the time of national consolidation, but it obviously has not been enough to build this kind of genetic barriers. I hope that researhers could use national names only as subclassification for GENETIC classification, not for steering genetic results, because using nations as the highest level obviously forces the tool to adapt some distinct genetic attributes. For exmaple of this, Norwegians and Swedes whose national-genetic differences is usually impossible to see at this level.Maurihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03670078523265515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-85591439255388190402012-03-17T02:39:02.577+02:002012-03-17T02:39:02.577+02:00"The back-migration may have affected all of ..."The back-migration may have affected all of Africa(...). The main difference between North and Sub-Saharan Africa, is that in the North they found Irhoud-like early H. sapiens, and in Nigeria they found Iwo-Eleru-like archaic forms".<br /><br />That is not what we see in mtDNA: in North Africa at least 30% of the mtDNA is of likely Iberian origin (not exactly Basque or Sardinian but the arrow did not start in Spain, mind you) and about 75% is of West Eurasian origin. We can see the Iberian and Arabian autosomal components being part of the North African gene pool, etc. <br /><br />Instead we have never ever seen anything like that in Nigeria. Nothing at all. <br /><br />Yet the algorithm produces the same result more or less for both, so extremely different, African populations. <br /><br />I think that it only demonstrates that the program is bugged, that the algorithm is not working as expected and you should report to the designers.<br /><br />They did warn in the "instructions" paper that some anomalies happened, surely they did not expected anything like this but well...Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-43718199981327572162012-03-17T01:49:01.045+02:002012-03-17T01:49:01.045+02:00Do these migration edges change the black skeleton...Do these migration edges change the black skeleton of the tree? It did in the other trees but I just can't see whats going on in these trees (I pasted into word and zoomed in).<br /><br />From what I CAN see Sardinia and French Basque are NOT showing up near the roots of European branches. They actually seem to show up as ultimate termini, like a recent offshoot of a Kent-like population. This is unexpected.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11000684388615334278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-2226677014116193012012-03-17T00:14:35.134+02:002012-03-17T00:14:35.134+02:00@Unknown,
I also predicted that too in 2010:
htt...@Unknown,<br /><br />I also predicted that too in 2010:<br /><br />http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/04/age-and-origin-of-17q21-inversion-in.html<br /><br /><b>pconroy said... </b><br />My take on it would be that it is South West Asia, and from there expanded into Europe and Africa.<br /><br />Since, to me, agriculture originated in West Asia/Middle East and came in 2 waves to Western Europe:<br />1. First a faster Coastal Route, around Iberia, and maybe bringing Pastoralists, with sheep/goats<br />2. Next a slightly later and slower Continental route, like LBK, bringing crop farming and cattle and pigs<br /><br />Agriculture spread in 2 waves to Africa also:<br />1. First Pastoralist carrying R1b1 and speaking AfroAsiastic languages - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afroasiatic_languages - bringing sheep/goats<br />2. Next crop farming, spread by E1b1b, and spreading into the Sahel, where they are halted by climate for a few thousand years, till they exchange some of their crops for more tropical ones, and spread on again as the Bantu Expansion.<br /><br />So this would explain the current distribution nicely, and concords well with the evidence.<br />Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:35:00 PMpconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-35050732649792495512012-03-16T23:41:07.113+02:002012-03-16T23:41:07.113+02:00"pconroy said... "
" whenever agric..."pconroy said... "<br />" whenever agriculture spread, it was via male agriculturalists' sons moving to the hunter-gatherer frontier and starting new agricultural communities"<br />... if Eurasian carrying Y-DNA E moved into the Sahara, then the Sahel region, then West Africa proper, the population would initially be Middle "Eastern in genotype and phenotype, then with demic expansion and some assimilation of the daughters of hunter-gatherers, become more admixed."<br />"... eventually the male agriculturalist on the "wave of advance" are substantially African by descent, but their Y-DNA is still Middle Eastern or more generally Eurasian."<br /><br /><br />Most traditional agricultural staples in West Africa were not those of the Near East. They were indigenous and locally domesticated, possibly with multi-millenial periods of semi cultivation first ( cases for the last are most often made for the oil palm and native yam). <br />Generally speaking speaking there were two zones. The main staples of the sahel/savannah were millet, sorghum and in some places, indigenous rice (oryza glaberrima). The West African forest/Guinea coast region grew the indigenous African yam and semi- cultivated the oil palm.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423921471342306475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-57305674643925759262012-03-16T22:31:44.897+02:002012-03-16T22:31:44.897+02:00Africans had a higher effective population size, y...<i>Africans had a higher effective population size, yes. What has happened is that Africa, like Eurasia, was highly affected by recent Y-DNA bottlenecks.</i><br /><br />The point is that Africa is supposed to have a higher effective population size. So, it must have been affected by bottlenecks less than Eurasia was.<br /><br />We see exactly the opposite: two lineages survive in Eurasia (DE and CF), and one in Africa (DE).<br /><br />Moreover, if bottlenecks were to blame, and Africa originally had CT, then it's weird that the bottlenecks wiped out the entire CT clade except for E, while at the same time left the A's and B's intact.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.com