tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post4983586776116347816..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: IE-speaking West Europeans are West Asian-admixed relative to Non-IE speaking BasquesDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-3213318940824743712014-08-01T14:08:43.070+03:002014-08-01T14:08:43.070+03:00The Indo-European language is Anatolian. That'...The Indo-European language is Anatolian. That's becoming more and more obvious to me. I know my Minoan ancestors were never conquered by Aryans sweeping in from the Steppes, and most linguists agree we spoke one. *I* think it was Italic.<br /><br />I thought we might have been conquered by the Greeks back in 1450 BC. Turns out... not so much. The first organized state to do that is the Romans. Which would be fitting if they're descended from conservative Cretan colonists who'd resisted the "Greekification" of the culture.Pneumatikonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05135543740306228320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-61057109287981991522014-02-16T04:13:34.696+02:002014-02-16T04:13:34.696+02:00I've just found the blog, 5 or 6 hours ago and...I've just found the blog, 5 or 6 hours ago and i've been reading the articles and most of the comments with a lot of interest, although i'm a newbie to all this. But this fellow right here, Max, just blew my mind. <br />You've just thrashed science, threw it to the garbage without even blinking, man! You brought The J to the table, with all the arsenal: the word, the light, the truth. You cannot do that man! That's rude!...you've just ruined my day.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09527817491100512767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-63198663415061251742014-01-15T14:27:31.871+02:002014-01-15T14:27:31.871+02:00For us Believers in the ALmighty Creator, we also ...For us Believers in the ALmighty Creator, we also believe that the Genesis, although giving a general description of the descendants of Noah, gives an authritative valid explanation, even better than any speculation or present-day-based genetic studies. Why? You cannot explain the linguistic difference of the Basque people; but you gave a hint: this people is not much different than the surrounding people. Genesis gives us an account of the peoples that were formed and spreaded from that region Levante-Anatolia-Caucasus as you rightly pointed out, so there is no discrepancy here. Furthermore, the Bible explains us that God Almighty confounded the languages of these people; that was a major reason for their spreading all around the world. SO there you have it, the explanation of why the Basques have a language that resembles to none other, because they arrived first, directly, much earlier than others since Babel Time. They were cousins of the others as the Bible explains; this also explains both genetic differences and similarities with other people. However, I don't expect that people wh have not the fear of God Almighty, Jehova, will accept His Word. Therefore, they remain in their sins, and in darkness, because they cannot see the Light nor the Truth, which could save them, in Jesus Christ, our God and saviour.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-74530031931322811132012-09-17T00:43:36.814+03:002012-09-17T00:43:36.814+03:00Hm.
Dont know if those Saami really are a good exa...Hm.<br />Dont know if those Saami really are a good example for Mesolith Euros.<br /><br />Well, they DO have a lot of U5 tats right. But there is one other thing that bothers me about them:<br /><br />On those Coon maps (and others), Saami apear to be the one dark haired and dark eyed spot in a ocean of northern European fair hair and light eyes.<br /><br />This maks them apear like a foreign body.<br /><br />But the light pigmentation of hair and eyes, in Europe, apears to immitate the "Northern European" element. Wich atm we think is related to the mesolithic element (at least in parts)<br /><br />I am pretty sure, the light pigmentation thing is "native" to Europe and not introduced by any neolithic Asians, be it northern or southern Asians.Fantyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07969348276219179258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-91971898888262542152012-09-12T21:31:08.867+03:002012-09-12T21:31:08.867+03:00@awood,
Sorry, I never responded to your post ear...@awood,<br /><br />Sorry, I never responded to your post earlier about the single component.<br /><br />No, I do not think that the Israelites were 100% of any single component, I completely agree with you. I do however suggest that they had a large portion of the Caucasus component and that they are a possible source for its recent arrival into Europe.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01270554253475715322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-64237588927540731402012-09-12T17:56:45.532+03:002012-09-12T17:56:45.532+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-48224934725860401502012-09-12T17:36:54.638+03:002012-09-12T17:36:54.638+03:00Hunter-gatherers from remote northern Spain compri...Hunter-gatherers from remote northern Spain comprised of more than a single component 7000+ years ago. You're trying to tell us that a population from 2000-1500BC was a single component adjacent to the heart of civilization - a region to have many disparate people becoming intertwined. Your comment parallels someone suggesting "North European" found in Britain is the result of viking invasions. Seriously.AWoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14966600445259901063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-79411550141378214982012-09-12T06:25:59.794+03:002012-09-12T06:25:59.794+03:00I have never heard anyone say that the ten tribes ...I have never heard anyone say that the ten tribes simply never existed.<br /><br />If your argument is that they simply did not contribute significantly to our current gene pool, we may be able to have a discussion, but to say that their existence and deportation by Assyria never happened seems far-stretched.<br /><br />When Assyria deported the tribes, they were sent to many different areas of the North, so I don't see why they could not have adopted a IE language.<br /><br />Israel was highly advanced for the time and the Northern Tribes represented a non-negligible fraction of the worlds population, to simply say that an entire population did not reproduce seems illogical and I see no reason why traces of their DNA may not be present today.<br /><br />I know very little about the spread of metallurgy, but I do find it interesting that the most prized weapons were made of "Damascus" steel which is the capitol of the Northern Tribes, even though the ore for the steel came from India.<br /><br />Also, people assume the need for signs of Hebrew culture among the lost tribes, but I see no need. They were an apostate group that worshiped idols and already had a strong affinity for the groups they mixed with in the North since they were already worshiping their idols.<br /><br />Plus, I'm not trying to prove anything from the Bible. I did not say we are all descended from 2 individuals 6,000 years ago or that everyone on Earth is descended from Noah's family, but the scattering of the tribes of Israel is a historical event with names, dates and places and I feel that anthropologists simply dissociate themselves from any such ideas because they don't want to appear to be religious zealots to their colleagues because it may ruin their career.<br /><br />I'm simply making the observation that there was a large shift in genes of the European people sometime in the last 4-5k years, and no one asks what signal if any the lost tribes could have played in that genetic transition.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01270554253475715322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-2370784338563775872012-09-11T23:42:19.961+03:002012-09-11T23:42:19.961+03:00@other Aaron
The presence of West Asian/Caucasus ...@other Aaron<br /><br />The presence of West Asian/Caucasus is circumstantial and pre-dates the identity of Hebrew people who probably would have scored a subset of predominantly Atlantic-Med, Caucasus/West Asian, and SW Asian ancestry - not necessarily in that order. Minor components of N.Euro which and N.African were probably present as well.<br /><br />-AAWoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14966600445259901063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-85864891928094517202012-09-11T19:33:18.451+03:002012-09-11T19:33:18.451+03:00Aaron, you seem to concede that your fantasy has a...Aaron, you seem to concede that your fantasy has absolutely no evidence. Moreover it appears to be nonsense contrary to known linguistic facts. Ascience is no help to science, it is its opposite. Science is in part precisely the endeavour to get beyond fanciful and grand ethnocentric myth.<br /><br />There is no historical evidence for the existence of 10 lost tribes. Likely the story was invented to give the Hebrews, a small wandering homeless tribe, some sense of self-importance, that they were a great nation and would be in the future. Their literature is centered around a genocidal god who would destroy their neighbours, increase their numbers and deliver the earth to them. Also the myth of the lost tribes would have served as a warning to the Hebrews not to apostacise from the jealous God: they would disappear into nothingness if they rebelled against him. The Hebrews might be characterised as a small, powerless, paranoid religious sect seething with resentment and aggression toward their more successful neighbours and the mythological 'history' served to express, reinforce and glorify their peculiar ethnic character and to provide some sort of group survival stategy. But there is certainly no scientific reason to atttribute Indo-European civilization and the spread of metallurgy to the "lost tribes".apostateimpressionshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992369104954433139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-22931335917295585652012-09-11T17:28:17.303+03:002012-09-11T17:28:17.303+03:00Aaron
"When they were deported they were mix...Aaron<br /><br /><i>"When they were deported they were mixed with the Assyrians so they would loose their identity as a people, during this mixing they most probably began speaking an IE language rather than a Semitic one."</i><br /><br />So they mixed with the Semitic Assyrians and and picked up IE language during this mixing. Quite interesting theory...<br /><br />A lot of folks have elevated Caucasus components compared to most of Europe.<br /> <br />Also documented IE already existed all the way in Europe by that time (2700 BP). <br /><br />You should stop try and explanin the whole history from the Bible. Those tribes were not that important. Slumberyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05139930329199925111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-28657529027407893572012-09-11T07:09:05.928+03:002012-09-11T07:09:05.928+03:00George
Circum-Caspian migration as the source of ...George<br /><br />Circum-Caspian migration as the source of West Europen Gedrosian is less than unlikely. Just imagine a map and place the frequency of this component in Europe. There is a North Atlantic (British Isles + adjacent coastal) maximum and decreasing into the East, included a "wall" in the East that contains virtually zero Gedrosia, included countries next to the Black Sea. A relatively recent East to West Continental migration as a source of this distribution seems to be rather unlikely to me.Slumberyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05139930329199925111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-86316775630962086342012-09-11T04:57:56.730+03:002012-09-11T04:57:56.730+03:00@apostateimpressions and George
The evidence for ...@apostateimpressions and George<br /><br />The evidence for my theory that the Caucasus component comes from the 10 tribes is entirely circumstantial, but as far as I am aware, there is no data that would contradict such a theory, so I figure it should at least be suggested. I gladly await further data that will disprove my theory.<br /><br />If you look at the groups from the Jewish Diaspora and compare them to their neighbors, you can see that they have an increased level of Caucasus component.<br /><br />Iranian-40.3<br />Iranian Jews-49.3<br /><br />Moroccan-6.7<br />Moroccan Jews-34<br /><br />Yemenese-27.7<br />Yemenese Jews-33.9<br /><br />Additionally other groups such as the Samaritans (48.8) and Druze (49.5) have high levels of the Caucasus component.<br /><br />So we would expect that the scattered tribes would likewise carry a high level of Caucuses component.<br /><br />When they were deported they were mixed with the Assyrians so they would loose their identity as a people, during this mixing they most probably began speaking an IE language rather than a Semitic one.<br /><br />The fusion of two cultures created an environment of shared ideas which inevitably led to increased technology, not to mention access to chariots.<br /><br />They quickly spread through Europe and mixed with everyone along the way as they expanded, Indo European dialects quickly became the prominent languages because they were the people in power.<br /><br />It will be interesting to see the genomes of Celtic, Germanic, Dacian and Thracian peoples to see if their genomes were Caucuses shifted relative to modern humans as they could be possible carriers of this Caucasus component into Europe.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01270554253475715322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-53631541979953680922012-09-10T23:27:53.489+03:002012-09-10T23:27:53.489+03:00Contra Aaron, I think the Caucasian is the older c...Contra Aaron, I think the Caucasian is the older component, coming in from Anatolia directly with people speaking Hittite family languages (~5K-3K BC) who were then supplanted in Europe by a later, circum-Caspian migration that brought in the Gedrosian genes with a mostly North Euro population (starting around 2000BC).Auditor George Danoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15451291978096556616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-18263245248877710372012-09-10T20:23:36.400+03:002012-09-10T20:23:36.400+03:00<< My guess is that the Caucasus component i...<< My guess is that the Caucasus component is from the scattered Northern Tribes of Israel, and it would have begun being introduced around 2700 years before present. >><br /><br />Do you have any evidence for that?<br /><br />The mythical lost tribes would have been a tiny percentage of the population of West Asia and there is no reason to associate the Hebrews with either the spread of Indo-European or metal age technology. Moreover the Hebrews are associated with Semitic languages and Afro-Asiatic genes, both of which are absent in Europe. The Caucasus component bespeaks the introduction of a racially distinct component that entered Europe from the Anatolian and Caucasus region not an ethnic group that had wandered around the south for centuries mixing with other components.apostateimpressionshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992369104954433139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-49968793072878152532012-09-10T09:35:55.035+03:002012-09-10T09:35:55.035+03:00I ask myself how all this fits in with the mass gr...I ask myself how all this fits in with the mass graves associated with cultural aspects of the LBK culture like the Herxheim site or the Talheim Death Pit. It makes me wonder what situation was present when other population elements moved into Europe and did they dislike what they saw? Or was it already a dying land?Katharóshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16649693310029639154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-32824769978152405232012-09-10T04:21:56.649+03:002012-09-10T04:21:56.649+03:00K12b is even more interesting.
Lithuanians and Sa...K12b is even more interesting.<br /><br />Lithuanians and Sardinians are the only Europeans without the Gedrosia component.<br /><br />The Basque and Orcadians are the only Europeans without the Caucasus component.<br /><br />The rest of the Europeans have various levels of these two components and they seem to be somewhat linked.<br /><br />My guess is that the Caucasus component is from the scattered Northern Tribes of Israel, and it would have begun being introduced around 2700 years before present.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01270554253475715322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-16063067888712085162012-09-10T00:10:14.199+03:002012-09-10T00:10:14.199+03:00Dienekes, Is this another way of depicting the res...Dienekes, Is this another way of depicting the results contained in your K7b spreadsheet that you referenced and linked? I note that the spreadsheet shows between 9 and 10% West Asian for Irish, Cornwall,English and "Orcadian" and shows 0% for French Basque (there were no Spanish Basques listed unless I missed it). <br /><br />Also, regarding the supposed uniqueness of Sardinia, wasn't there considerable infusion of Greeks, Phoenicians and Romans, or did they not leave a trace?Mark Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03792117663748801194noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-17063371394806702062012-09-09T23:19:31.318+03:002012-09-09T23:19:31.318+03:00"IE-speaking West Europeans are West Asian-ad..."IE-speaking West Europeans are West Asian-admixed relative to Non-IE speaking Basques"<br /><br />I really don't think you can talk about components like that when they are so closely related.<br /><br />It's all good to talk about west eurasian and east eurasian components and how they merged when two different peoples mixed but that's not the sane when talking about similar west eurasian components. All you have to do is make a little tweak and you end up getting different distributions of components. Basically, because the components are so close, they interchange with parts of each other, making it obvious that each component does not represent a people.princenuadhahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02165977957244158593noreply@blogger.com